Tithing

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HereWeGo
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Re: Tithing

Post by HereWeGo »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
You still sticking with that story?
Some people don't change their understanding about something just because the Church's position is quoted over and over from their own website. Some people don't change their understanding no matter what is presented. Older people have a hard time letting go of things they have believed all their lives. I know this. I am one of those older people.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Tithing

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I work hard in my older years to be able to let go of my misunderstandings. I try to hold fast to new truths and concepts that I now learn.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:45 am
TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:39 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
You still sticking with that story?
yes.
LOL
not sure what is so funny? I sure don't see it. As I have said some leaders want to push their agenda. but the formal wording and handbook, etc... do not support you're statements. For example, did you know that the United States Government officially endorses reparations for all people living in the US, even non-citizens for millions in reparations, I mean Shiela Jackson said so! So, I can quote one person and claim it is the formal policy................................................. see you lack of logic. BTW you can find the statement in the official US Congressional record (website).

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:08 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:45 am
TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:39 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:59 pm

You still sticking with that story?
yes.
LOL
not sure what is so funny? I sure don't see it. As I have said some leaders want to push their agenda. but the formal wording and handbook, etc... do not support you're statements. For example, did you know that the United States Government officially endorses reparations for all people living in the US, even non-citizens for millions in reparations, I mean Shiela Jackson said so! So, I can quote one person and claim it is the formal policy................................................. see you lack of logic. BTW you can find the statement in the official US Congressional record (website).
LOL

This is false: “The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.”

Justify it anyway you want Duke. They teach with forked tongues. Serpent language.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I think a few of you need a quick reminder of what your church teaches from General Conference and their official magazines:

Elder Lynn Robbins, April 2005:
"Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required? Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.”

Elder Aaron West, Dec. 2012 Ensign:
“If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.”

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LDS Physician
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Re: Tithing

Post by LDS Physician »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:39 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:59 pm
TheDuke wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:30 pm The church does not, nor never has taught that 10% of your income is tithing.
You still sticking with that story?
yes.
By allowing millions of members to continue paying like that, that is exactly what they’re teaching.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 11:27 am I think a few of you need a quick reminder of what your church teaches from General Conference and their official magazines:

Elder Lynn Robbins, April 2005:
"Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required? Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.”

Elder Aaron West, Dec. 2012 Ensign:
“If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.”
And, yet, the real purpose of tithing is to help the poor and needy. (The real purpose, not the LDS's version of its purpose.)

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

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So, what did Melchizedek do on the Arabian peninsula with 10% of the gold and loot Abraham took from the Syrian army that looted the 5 cities? You know he gave it to the poor and needy Arabians around the battlefield? Is that why Abraham gave it to him, to redistribute for him?

Just asking..... Seems the message on tithing there was on paying not on helping. The discussions on helping seem to be on "offerings" as tithing isn't even a thing in Jesus' time.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Tithing

Post by iWriteStuff »

silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:40 pm An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.
Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

wondering if the bishop got a commission?

Honestly, I wrestled with tithing for many years. I did a lot of research and I have posted here what the church says. However, I also agree with those above that post that some leaders, like bishops some how don't understand the teachings and make up their own. I find this offensive and wrong. But, it is not the church it is some leaders, not all.

I suppose if this was my mom, I'd pull the pension back. Get JG Wentworth, get you're money now.

I guess the issue is as with all commandments. there is the wording, then there is interpretation. Seems all get stretched. Tithing is no exception, but it is true with all things. there seems a tendency for leaders to push everyone to the upper level, to do the most. But, that is just natural. I have lead many teams of employees, I had to sort out how to motivate each to their own level. If you set a broad standard then some aren't challenged and others are over challenged. That is the dilemma church leaders at the top are in, and worse they get their feedback from @#$ kissers and pollsters, so they don't even know when they are achieving the goals and failing.

The only answer is for everyone to see what the Lord says, what the formal doctrine is and make their own choice. but some are weak and get caught in the crush. However, that surely doesn't seem to be many on this forum, just our other peers.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:34 pm …some leaders, like bishops some how don't understand the teachings and make up their own. I find this offensive and wrong. But, it is not the church it is some leaders, not all.
I’m trying to understand how you arrived at this statement. Did you not read what I posted above? These aren’t low-level leaders. We’re talking general conference, the current website, Ensign… the works. This is from your PSRs. All of them.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Tithing

Post by Silver Pie »

She should have someone nonLDS be her financial advisor. I get angry and frustrated when I see the demonic attitude these people have toward extorting all the money they can get, and refusing much-needed help.

I sincerely hope and pray that she stops giving any of her pension to the LDS Church, and uses it for her needs.
iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:16 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:40 pm An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.
Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:52 pm

I’m trying to understand how you arrived at this statement. Did you not read what I posted above? These aren’t low-level leaders. We’re talking general conference, the current website, Ensign… the works. This is from your PSRs. All of them.
You are conflating my comments. The quotes you posted are from leaders/GA's I admit and they are quite vague and not in line with the official position. Like I said back a few posts, I can find quotes that say the opposite as well (some have been posted above).

Anyone that reads old GA talks and makes that doctrine (or current GA's for that matter) is a fool in my opinion or if not a fool, a weak person of understanding.

However, a local bishop and SP do have influence over the rank-and-file. That what I was commenting about on the local leaders. There are many of them. I have had one, only one like that in 66 years of service (maybe twice but I'm not recalling a second). He was a young and ambitious bishop (not ambitious for promotion but to further the work as he saw it). but the same is true of many commandments, like asking for sacrifice for busy young parents (in the old days when there were many weekly assignments), etc... For the strong, you say "hell no" for the weak, they get pushed around. That is wrong and I agree with you on it. But, sorry the entire world is that way, why should a complex organization like the church be any different? Even in Joseph's day, he spent a majority of the time correcting those around him in doctrine, just days or weeks after a new revelation. Just nature, but unfortunate. But not a smoking gun of leadership apostacy.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:52 pm

I’m trying to understand how you arrived at this statement. Did you not read what I posted above? These aren’t low-level leaders. We’re talking general conference, the current website, Ensign… the works. This is from your PSRs. All of them.
You are conflating my comments. The quotes you posted are from leaders/GA's I admit and they are quite vague and not in line with the official position. Like I said back a few posts, I can find quotes that say the opposite as well (some have been posted above).

Anyone that reads old GA talks and makes that doctrine (or current GA's for that matter) is a fool in my opinion or if not a fool, a weak person of understanding.

However, a local bishop and SP do have influence over the rank-and-file. That what I was commenting about on the local leaders. There are many of them. I have had one, only one like that in 66 years of service (maybe twice but I'm not recalling a second). He was a young and ambitious bishop (not ambitious for promotion but to further the work as he saw it). but the same is true of many commandments, like asking for sacrifice for busy young parents (in the old days when there were many weekly assignments), etc... For the strong, you say "hell no" for the weak, they get pushed around. That is wrong and I agree with you on it. But, sorry the entire world is that way, why should a complex organization like the church be any different? Even in Joseph's day, he spent a majority of the time correcting those around him in doctrine, just days or weeks after a new revelation. Just nature, but unfortunate. But not a smoking gun of leadership apostacy.
Vague? Vague? How in the world did you get vague out of that? They are quite to the point, granular in fact. You pay tithing before rent, food, bills, etc. on your “income.” You pay the church before you care for your family. What’s the point of all of your leaders sitting in the red seats behind the pulpit if they allow false doctrines like this to be taught to the entire membership of the church at GC?

I do agree with you that early leaders taught it more correctly, but they changed by degrees immediately after the murder of Joseph and Hyrum.

Google “What is tithing in the LDS church”, and you’ll find hardly any definitions that include surplus (I’d actually love for you to find one)… sure, they’ll wink and nod at “increase” once in a while, but they literally say on their website that “increase” is defined as “income.”

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Tithing

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:16 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:40 pm An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.
Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

Now that is so messed up!!!
🤯😳
Gotta be a way to help her see that she needs her pension$$$

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Tithing

Post by iWriteStuff »

TwochurchesOnly wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:18 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:16 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:40 pm An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.
Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

Now that is so messed up!!!
🤯😳
Gotta be a way to help her see that she needs her pension$$$
The thing about Parkinson's is that it comes with some pretty severe dementia. She can hear me saying she needs to take care of herself with what she has earned by being a school teacher all those years, but it's not really getting through. Besides, why wouldn't she trust the bishop?

smh

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Tithing

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:46 pm
TwochurchesOnly wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:18 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 28th, 2023, 7:16 pm
silverado wrote: January 26th, 2023, 1:40 pm An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.
Do ya one better. My mother has Parkinson's and is a retired schoolteacher with a pension. Because my father still works, the bishop (who is also her financial advisor - no conflict of interest, right?) told my mother she should just send the whole pension check to the church. You know, for tax write offs. My mother is faithful and believing, so that is what she does.

Fast forward: my mother needs help around the house - help my father can't give her due to his own physical limitations and the fact that he has to work still in order to pay for all the expenses. She asked the church for help and they said, "No, we don't do that sort of thing." But she can't afford to pay for any help because, you guessed it, she's giving the church all her money and my father doesn't have enough to cover both her medical bills and then pay someone else to make sure she makes it to doctor appointments or for help making meals.

The icing in the cake? The church has spent close to a billion dollars in their state over the last year buying up investment properties they don't need with the money old poor people like my sick mother keeps sending them, with nothing but a kick in the pants in return.

I keep hoping the Lord will take care of them, because the church sure won't. The charity there only goes one way.

Now that is so messed up!!!
🤯😳
Gotta be a way to help her see that she needs her pension$$$
The thing about Parkinson's is that it comes with some pretty severe dementia. She can hear me saying she needs to take care of herself with what she has earned by being a school teacher all those years, but it's not really getting through. Besides, why wouldn't she trust the bishop?

smh
Very sad - I'm so sorry

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:06 pm
on their website that “increase” is defined as “income.”
Agreed, they are the same. Just you consider income to be gross not net. That is you're interpretation and you are entitled to it. But, it isn't what policy says. Read it for yourself or just keep finding GA's that say what you want.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:17 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 8:06 pm
on their website that “increase” is defined as “income.”
Agreed, they are the same. Just you consider income to be gross not net. That is you're interpretation and you are entitled to it. But, it isn't what policy says. Read it for yourself or just keep finding GA's that say what you want.
Uh, I haven’t once said anything about “gross” vs “net.” Unless you want gross or net blessings, of course. :)

My whole point is that tithing is on your surplus, which is defined by the individual. That is the definition of “increase” per the early church. I can find lots of quotes that are crystal clear on that point. There was no doubt in their mind that tithes were surplus. Hence why it was done toward the end of the year and correctly called “Tithing Settlement.” Currently renaming it to “Tithing Delcaration” is just silly, and moves further away from the intended purpose.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:24 pm
Uh, I haven’t once said anything about “gross” vs “net.” Unless you want gross or net blessings, of course. :)
Untrue statement: you just wrote "You pay tithing before rent, food, bills, etc. on your “income.” You pay the church before you care for your family. "

Sorry, but you are defining income as gross in you're biased and undocumented assertions in you comment to me. You have a hammer and are looking for nails.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:28 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:24 pm
Uh, I haven’t once said anything about “gross” vs “net.” Unless you want gross or net blessings, of course. :)
Untrue statement: you just wrote "You pay tithing before rent, food, bills, etc. on your “income.” You pay the church before you care for your family. "

Sorry, but you are defining income as gross in you're biased and undocumented assertions in you comment to me. You have a hammer and are looking for nails.
You need to read what I wrote more carefully, that was me quoting the church and what they taught in general conference.
Elder Lynn Robbins, April 2005: "Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required? Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.”

Elder Aaron West, Dec. 2012 Ensign: “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.”
Read what I said about surplus, that is MY definition.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 28th, 2023, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:31 pm
I’m not defining anything, that was me quoting the church and what they taught in general conference.
please the link.

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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:32 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:31 pm
I’m not defining anything, that was me quoting the church and what they taught in general conference.
please the link.
See edit above.

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TheDuke
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Re: Tithing

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant: Didn't know Aaron West or Lynn Robbins were LDS leaders or naming doctrine. You did it again, just picking nobodies and claiming they have the right to declare doctrine. I'm done here. have a nice evening.

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Re: Tithing

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:38 pm Reluctant: Didn't know Aaron West or Lynn Robbins were LDS leaders or naming doctrine. You did it again, just picking nobodies and claiming they have the right to declare doctrine. I'm done here. have a nice evening.
This was taught in general conference. The second one was taught in the Ensign. What is the point of PSRs if they allow false doctrine to be taught to the members in a worldwide meeting and/or periodicals that they should be reviewing? They approve of all talks before given and the content of the Ensign.

All of your PSRs were sitting right behind the first dude in GC. And if they aren’t reading their own magazine, what’s the point of publishing it?

At minimum, the Correlation Depo reviews all content before being released.

I also don’t think my perspective and calling out the church for their gross errors is wrong. It’s also not nitpicking. Words and doctrine are important. How we care for the poor is important. Many BoM prophets thought so as well, hence why they condemned the churches of our day for grinding the face of the poor.

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