Tithing

[silverado]

An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.

[Robin Hood]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

[HereWeGo]

If they followed tithing the way it was done in the early church, she would not have to pay anything.

But the corporation would lose out on a lot of money and would only be a $1 billion dollar church instead of its current $1 trillion dollar status.

[silverado]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

That makes sense, but I don't think that is what she was taught (she is a newish member). Do you know any scriptures that back that up?

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

[Robin Hood]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

But an elderly widow having money left over after medical bills is not a profit. Having enough money to put away extra for a down payment on a bigger prettier house might be an example of a profit.

[LDS Physician]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

That makes sense, but I don't think that is what she was taught (she is a newish member). Do you know any scriptures that back that up?

Doctrine & Covenants 119:3-4
“And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.”

As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I very well may have been wrong about that as a bishop back then, as I have learned much since then. Still, that "feels right by the Holy Ghost" as Elder Renlund invokes.

The member determines if they are a full tithe payer. At tithing settlement, bishops are simply to ask the member if they consider themselves full, partial, or not tithe payers. We don't look at the total amount or discuss how they come to the conclusion that they did.

[Wolfwoman]

This is an excellent blogpost on it.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

However if she wants to be a good modern Latter Day Saint (you said she’s a new member), then she would probably want to do as suggested. Pay tithing and have the church pay her medical bills or other bills. I guess she might need to check with her bishop? See what and if he is willing to pay out of fast offerings to help her.

But the D&C says “interest”. The general authorities then say interest means income. But it doesn’t mean income or wages as we understand it today. It really is the equivalent to profit in a business. If you were to run your household like a business, how much is coming in, how much is going out for necessities, and how much is leftover after paying for necessities? Whatever is leftover is your profit or increase. Then you pay 10% on that amount. And in God’s eyes, that makes you a full tithe payer. If you didn’t make a profit this year, then you owe nothing in tithing. That’s why tithing settlement is done once a year. So you can figure out if you made a profit this year and how much it was.

D&C 119:4
Genesis 14 JST
There’s also a letter from early church history in which an elder on a mission is writing home and talks about another church. I can’t remember which one, if it is the Catholic Church or what, but he talked about how the people were enslaved by this 10% tithe/tax on their wages.
So 10% on wages was not how it was understood in Joseph Smith’s time.

[Obrien]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

But an elderly widow having money left over after medical bills is not a profit. Having enough money to put away extra for a down payment on a bigger prettier house might be an example of a profit.

Listen you rabble rouser - If the widow has a mite it MUST be tossed into the temple treasury. Didn't you learn anything in seminary???

[Obrien]

I know many of you will reject this because it is from a former mormon, but this is one of the best overviews of tithing, complete with quotes and sources, I have heard. I do like Rock Waterman's old post (noted above) as well. Rock opened my eyes about the finance company masquerading as a church I attend.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/202 ... f-dollars/

[Reluctant Watchman]

An elderly widow in my ward wants to go to the Temple. But she is having trouble paying tithing. Too many medical expenses and not enough money. Someone suggested that she pay tithing and then ask the Church for assistance. It seems to me there should be a better answer.

Now you know why Nephi and Moroni used such harsh language against the whore of Babylon and the church of the devil. They built their sanctuaries on the backs of the poor.

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/tithe-the-poor

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm adding this video to the Resources section of my Tithe the Poor essay. For some reason, the audio is waaay too slow. Listen to it at 1.75-2X speed.

The quote from Joseph F. Smith that directly contradicts Bednar is fascinating. You just sit there thinking... "This man is trying to deceive me, he's a con man."

[Dusty Wanderer]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

That makes sense, but I don't think that is what she was taught (she is a newish member). Do you know any scriptures that back that up?

As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I very well may have been wrong about that as a bishop back then, as I have learned much since then. Still, that "feels right by the Holy Ghost" as Elder Renlund invokes.

Thanks for sharing this, and nice reference. What have you learned since then that may cast doubt on your judgement? FWIW, I think you were spot on.

[Silver Pie]

Now you know why Nephi and Moroni used such harsh language against the whore of Babylon and the church of the devil. They built their sanctuaries on the backs of the poor.

Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up. They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up
2 Nephi 28:12-13


Mormon talking to US, not the Catholic Church:

O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled. Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world? Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.
Mormon 8:33-41

[Mindfields]

The leaders of this church over the years have managed to corrupt pretty much everything. How in the world would you think your justified to pressure a poor old, sickly widow to give her last penny to the mormon corporation. Shameless really.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

When I was a member, the church expected me to pay tithing on the help they gave me. They gave me a check every month to cover my rent and bills, and enough extra to pay the tithing I would owe on that amount. I was expected to write a check and turn in the tithing amount and go through the motions, so I wouldn't miss out on the blessings.

[Silver Pie]

When I was a member, the church expected me to pay tithing on the help they gave me. They gave me a check every month to cover my rent and bills, and enough extra to pay the tithing I would owe on that amount. I was expected to write a check and turn in the tithing amount and go through the motions, so I wouldn't miss out on the blessings.

Wow! That is so weird!

[JSmith]

The Apostle Orson Hyde wrote,

“If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” The Millenial Star.

Lorenzo Snow – October 19, 1879:

“But as regards the law of tithing, it is in force upon the poor as well as the rich, and it seems that it acts almost unequally in some respects. There is a widow, whose income is ten dollars; she pays one for tithing and then has to appeal to the Bishop for support. Here is a rich man who has an income of one hundred thousand dollars, and pays ten thousand for his tithing. Now, what would be the operation of the celestial law? The widow has not enough for her support, therefore nothing is required of her by the celestial law, or the law of the United Order.”

[Wolfwoman]

I think most churches teach nowadays that tithing is 10% of your wages/income. But I don’t know if they require it of people who are in poverty (probably not).
Dave Ramsey teaches it that way. But when I was looking at one of their sample budgets they were paying 10% of take home pay, not gross. If you think about it, in some countries where people are heavily taxed, it would be pretty much impossible to pay 10% of your gross income. Government takes 80%. Church takes 10%.

I think people who are dependent on the government for their livelihood should not have to pay tithing either. What a messed up system.

[Wolfwoman]

I know many of you will reject this because it is from a former mormon, but this is one of the best overviews of tithing, complete with quotes and sources, I have heard. I do like Rock Waterman's old post (noted above) as well. Rock opened my eyes about the finance company masquerading as a church I attend.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/202 ... f-dollars/

I haven’t seen this before, but I’m reading through it and it looks fantastic! Thank you!

[Wolfwoman]

I know many of you will reject this because it is from a former mormon, but this is one of the best overviews of tithing, complete with quotes and sources, I have heard. I do like Rock Waterman's old post (noted above) as well. Rock opened my eyes about the finance company masquerading as a church I attend.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/202 ... f-dollars/

Wow, even back in the 70s and 80s they were saying that people with no income and people who were living on welfare were exempt from tithing. Apparently that has changed. I want to talk to my dad about this since he was born in the 40s. I wonder if he knows about the changes? He has told me how they used to go out to eat on Sundays long ago. It wasn’t considered breaking the Sabbath day back then.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I did the same. Very similar situation.

[The Red Pill]

In 1907, Joseph F. Smith made the following statement:

April 5 – Joseph F. Smith declares that a day will come when the church will have ammassed enough money, they will no longer ask the members for tithing donations: “we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God… That is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in the management of the affairs of His Church.” (1907 General Conference opening remarks, Conference Report, p.7)

You know it's a racket when 116 YEARS later and approximately 150 BILLION DOLARS (just cash) richer...the church is telling Africans who live on dirt floors to pony up 10%...and their lives would improve...

While...they collect 152K base pay plus many perks and expenses paid for.

What was that about priestcraft in the scriptures????

[Christianlee]

Temple tithing is what makes the church an authoritarian cult. It is literally buying your salvation. People need to ask themselves if the purchase is worth the price. I suggest a thorough understanding of scripture would reveal the temple to be a racket.