Tithing

[harakim]

Temple tithing is what makes the church an authoritarian cult. It is literally buying your salvation. People need to ask themselves if the purchase is worth the price. I suggest a thorough understanding of scripture would reveal the temple to be a racket.

When I think of the temple, I realize that's just a PC way of saying tithing. That's why they came up with the covenant path. A new indirection.

[Theveilofforgetting]

Tithing is being pushed in my ward, even to the poorest. One PH was telling of how he was getting government assistance which barely covered his rent and telling how paying tithing still blessed his family. I was troubled by this because the only way it made sense is if the church was helping or if he managed to get casual work to cover food and bills. He did not mention how his family was blessed, financially or otherwise.

My former bishop did my TR interview last year and I answered no to full tithe payer (and to wearing of garments). He said I should strive to do these things and SP concurred then I was given the TR. Since then I've thought about how I'd paid tithing (while low income). I don't have a testimony of tithing (I am patient though and i am ok with waiting on it). I don't mind donating because if nothing else my kids do benefit from church. I grew up in poverty and saw my mother struggle. The church would help out in emergency situations (eg. Washing machine broke down) but would require her to pay tithing first. My former bishop made it clear he'd assist us financially if we needed it but I'd hate to ask. He (no longer serving in the church due to an injury) has offered to support my son who is planning a mission. I'd obviously support him too but it won't be enough. (He has just got a job and will pay tithing). I certainly know people in the church with wealth who can pay tithing and extra while also fully providing for their kids on missions. At least where I live though it's not common.

The idea of paying tithing and then asking for help to pay for things I'd otherwise be able to pay for seems the opposite of self suffiency (something I value and is still taught in the church). And like an extra step just to show faith that looks more like desperation.

Something offputting about the church having so much surplus but members are struggling while also serving the church in voluntary positions. I feel like I'm burdening people I I ask for anything (even for a lift to church) because they are already busy and doing so much.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Temple tithing is what makes the church an authoritarian cult. It is literally buying your salvation. People need to ask themselves if the purchase is worth the price. I suggest a thorough understanding of scripture would reveal the temple to be a racket.

I would suggest otherwise. If the laws were taught correctly, then it would be a true endowment.

[Ebenezer]

Keeping that poor woman out of the temple is just the Corporation's way of saying that "...the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them."

We can't have those dirty poors in Zion now can we?

[Robin Hood]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

But an elderly widow having money left over after medical bills is not a profit. Having enough money to put away extra for a down payment on a bigger prettier house might be an example of a profit.

I disagree.
If the elderly widow receives a pension and, having met all of her bills, has some disposable income, that, for the purposes of tithing, is an increase.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

But an elderly widow having money left over after medical bills is not a profit. Having enough money to put away extra for a down payment on a bigger prettier house might be an example of a profit.

I disagree.
If the elderly widow receives a pension and, having met all of her bills, has some disposable income, that, for the purposes of tithing, is an increase.

Yep we disagree. Leftover for operating expenses at the end of the day is not a profit. And that the widows believe they have to pay tithing on the change day have left over in their jar to get to heaven is how the church makes gajillions.

Edit: more about granny

Is Granny's house and all her bills paid off? All her medical expenses paid off? Money in the bank to pay for any future needs like more medical expenses? How about her family and other responsibilities, do they all have their needs met and no debts or burdens? How about her funeral, is there money in the bank to pay for that? How about all the other life expenses granny is going to need? Unless granny is rolling in it cruising around the world before she dies, she doesn't owe the church a thing. She's not making a profit just because she has some leftover. And she doesn't even need to calculate it more than yearly and decide if she actually made a profit that year or if her household breaks even, or is still going to be needing some operating expenses for the next year.

And we could apply the same thing to single parents, families with kiddos, etc. How many are actually making a profit every year? And how many are paying on guilt and manipulation by a church who says we should pay our tithing before we feed our children?

[BigT]

While...they collect 152K base pay plus many perks and expenses paid for.

And are exempt from paying tithing on that 152K plus perks.

[Obrien]

I know many of you will reject this because it is from a former mormon, but this is one of the best overviews of tithing, complete with quotes and sources, I have heard. I do like Rock Waterman's old post (noted above) as well. Rock opened my eyes about the finance company masquerading as a church I attend.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/202 ... f-dollars/

I haven’t seen this before, but I’m reading through it and it looks fantastic! Thank you!

Thank Bill Reel and Rock Waterman... they have done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other men that ever lived in it, with regard to the correct payment of tithes.

[Mindfields]

If Jesus was here now living among us do you think he would accept his "stipend" with the poor and needy living all around us?

Stipend yet another Mormon weasel word.

[Obrien]

Temple tithing is what makes the church an authoritarian cult. It is literally buying your salvation. People need to ask themselves if the purchase is worth the price. I suggest a thorough understanding of scripture would reveal the temple to be a racket.

Buying your salvation is just the tip of the iceberg. The temple is not only a financial racket, as you allude to, but it is a powerful mind control weapon the church uses to maintain an iron grip on the minds of mormons from generation to generation. It is the ultimate carrot for faithful mormons.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Temple tithing is what makes the church an authoritarian cult. It is literally buying your salvation. People need to ask themselves if the purchase is worth the price. I suggest a thorough understanding of scripture would reveal the temple to be a racket.

Buying your salvation is just the tip of the iceberg. The temple is not only a financial racket, as you allude to, but it is a powerful mind control weapon the church uses to maintain an iron grip on the minds of mormons from generation to generation. It is the ultimate carrot for faithful mormons.

How dare you break your covenants and speak ill of the Lord’s anointed.

I will say though, if the ordinances of the gospel, sacrifice, virtue and consecration were taught in purity, it surely would be the House of the Lord. Temples were intended to be places of learning. Keys of knowledge opened the mind to great blessings and endowments of power as the act of living true principles were manifest in the lives of the people, even piercing the veil and being taught by heavenly messengers.

[Maroriginal1]

The real problem is not with tithing, but overtaxation and inflation. Highly recommend “How do I tax thee.” It dives into the hidden and corrupt tax structure in the US. We easily pay upwards of 50-60% in taxes in the US plus high costs.

https://books.google.com/books/about/H ... &q&f=false

I have no problem with a tithing law. I think any leaders that mishandles funds, coerce donations, or limit recommends in spite of a widows mite will have the Lord to recon with. But our beast government systems is at the core of making tithing burdensome. Even if tithing is based on what’s left over after necessities, it still is a hardship for many right now.

I view tithing as a sacrificial law, not financial. Consider that Mary and Joseph offered the lower sacrificial offering after Christ's birth of birds instead of a lamb. Why? They had just paid their taxes.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The real problem is not with tithing, but overtaxation and inflation. Highly recommend “How do I tax thee.” It dives into the hidden and corrupt tax structure in the US. We easily pay upwards of 50-60% in taxes in the US plus high costs.

https://books.google.com/books/about/H ... &q&f=false

I have no problem with a tithing law. I think any leaders that mishandles funds, coerce donations, or limit recommends in spite of a widows mite will have the Lord to recon with. But our beast government systems is at the core of making tithing burdensome. Even if tithing is based on what’s left over after necessities, it still is a hardship for many right now.

I view tithing as a sacrificial law, not financial. Consider that Mary and Joseph offered the lower sacrificial offering after Christ's birth of birds instead of a lamb. Why? They had just paid their taxes.

The Lord will not hold you unaccountable if you give to or support a church that you feel harms the poor.

[creator]

As a bishop, I had a blind convert who lived on about $750 per month. After all of her expenses were paid (she was completely reliant on the government for income), she had about $20 left per month. I told her that tithing paid on that $20 was all that was expected.

I very well may have been wrong about that as a bishop back then, as I have learned much since then. Still, that "feels right by the Holy Ghost" as Elder Renlund invokes.

If you were wrong it might have only been because maybe she actually didn't owe anything in tithing. Sounds like you did good.

[The Red Pill]

Joseph Smith taught that tithing funds should be used to lift and benefit the poor...keep that in mind as you read this:

"John H. Vandenberg tells a General Confernce story of a young girl (16) asking permission to give her tithing money directly to help her parents so they can meet bills and stay together: “’We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?’ The young lady should be commended for her desires to help her parents, but the matter would not be helped by diverting her tithing to the cause.” (John H. Vandenberg, Oct. 1966 CR, p.66); Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p.1123)"

This is beyond messed up...when you consider what Joseph taught about what tithing should be used for.

Now that we know about the 150 billion fund over at Ensign Peak Advisors...it just makes me nauseated.

[Original_Intent]

Tithing should be paid on increase.
So she pays on what's left after her medical bills. If there's nothing left she pays nothing but can still in effect claim to be a tithe payer.

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

But an elderly widow having money left over after medical bills is not a profit. Having enough money to put away extra for a down payment on a bigger prettier house might be an example of a profit.

this can become a rabbit hole and is why each person should work out with the Lord what is right, imho. It is THE only way,

[Original_Intent]

Ultimately consecration becomes much easier than tithing. God understands that you need food, shelter, etc. Do you need to take care of tomorrow? Jesus says no, our society and way of life says yes (and I do prep and try to be ready for bad times) but ultimately put all of your time, effort and money towards building up the kingdom of God. A first and primary part of that is caring for yourself and your family to the best of your ability. Beyond that look to build relationships and build a community based on the same principles. Such a community will prosper and there will be more than enough to provide for those few that truly CANNOT provide for themselves.

But it also must be done with wisdom, one tiny community cannot just open their doors to the refugees of the entire world. And said refugees have to come with a willingness to contribute their time and talents to the extent that they can and be willing to learn and grow their talents. All done with agency and not using Satan's counterfeits.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph Smith taught that tithing funds should be used to lift and benefit the poor...keep that in mind as you read this:

"John H. Vandenberg tells a General Confernce story of a young girl (16) asking permission to give her tithing money directly to help her parents so they can meet bills and stay together: “’We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?’ The young lady should be commended for her desires to help her parents, but the matter would not be helped by diverting her tithing to the cause.” (John H. Vandenberg, Oct. 1966 CR, p.66); Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p.1123)"

This is beyond messed up...when you consider what Joseph taught about what tithing should be used for.

Now that we know about the 150 billion fund over at Ensign Peak Advisors...it just makes me nauseated.

Here's the full quote in context. He was judging this couple based upon their "debts", with the assumpting that this couple had spent excessively and it was their own fault. The dad in this story is working two jobs at this point, I highly doubt he was spending frivolously. Such crappy counsel and judgment from John H. Vandenberg

https://ia902806.us.archive.org/26/item ... 12unse.pdf

Under the heading of "Vital Statistics" in the daily newspaper, there are listed the names of those happy men and women who have received licenses to enter into the holy state of matrimony. There are also listed under the same heading those unhappy individuals who have failed in matrimony and are now suing for divorce. Oftentimes, this is a longer list. One wonders what happened in the latter cases that brought their status from bliss to chaos.

The following excerpt from a letter written by a 16-year-old girl tells how family trouble may start: "My dad and mother are good people, and I love them very much. We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?"

The young lady should be commended for her desires to help her parents, but the matter would not be helped by diverting her tithing to the cause.

The answer to this family's problem is not necessarily more money. The need for more money is merely the symptom. The malady is excessive debt, caused by uncontrolled credit purchasing. The cure is a reappraisal of the income after allowing God's due, a survey of the amounts needed for the real necessities—shelter, food, clothing, health—and a calculation of the residue of income for the amortization of other indebtedness, with a resolve by all that no further credit purchases be made. It may even mean the forfeiture of some luxury items that should not have been purchased in the first place. Here I would caution people against borrowing more money to consolidate debts, thereby increasing their interest rates and extending their bondage.

Unwarrantable indebtedness is one of the curses of this day and age. It causes many people to live their lives in bondage. The lure of buying on time under the "easy payment plan" too often puts the millstone around the neck of the purchaser; and when once in the credit rut, it is very hard to get out. Sorrow, grief, divorce, and de- linquency are all perpetuated by such foolishness.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Joseph Smith taught that tithing funds should be used to lift and benefit the poor...keep that in mind as you read this:

"John H. Vandenberg tells a General Confernce story of a young girl (16) asking permission to give her tithing money directly to help her parents so they can meet bills and stay together: “’We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?’ The young lady should be commended for her desires to help her parents, but the matter would not be helped by diverting her tithing to the cause.” (John H. Vandenberg, Oct. 1966 CR, p.66); Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p.1123)"

This is beyond messed up...when you consider what Joseph taught about what tithing should be used for.

Now that we know about the 150 billion fund over at Ensign Peak Advisors...it just makes me nauseated.

This was exactly like my experience in pres Monson's Ward with the (ridiculously wealthy) Bishop who was in charge of the ward the last few years of his life.

I was a sick poor single mom raising a special needs child with no father in the picture and needed help. I was already going to the church for help, but they decided to cut me off and tell me I had to figure something else out.

My parents thought at the time instead of paying their money to the church, they could be using that money to help the poor. They wanted the church's approval to count that as tithing.

That Bishop wigged out. And I mean for real... The meeting ended with him towering over my mother and me sobbing our guts out, while this huge at least 6 ft 2 man red-faced BELLOWED at me and waved his arms at me (like in a way that make me feel scared for my physical safety), and told me "tithing was about OBEDIENCE not giving handouts", and proceeded to tell me how I needed to get on disability or put my kid in a home and go get a job because I was not the church's responsibility, and my parents tithing money belonged to the church and the Lord and I had no right to expect it, and they had no right to give it to me if they wanted the Lord's blessings.

(We all ended up leaving the church within a year of this incident as that was one of the last straws.)

[FoxMammaWisdom]

But increase is profit. She doesn't have a profit after she pays all her bills and has a couple dollars left. She's going to use that to pay for more life necessities. If she were bringing in enough money for her household to make a profit and have increase, then she should pay tithing on THAT money.

That's what I said.

But an elderly widow having money left over after medical bills is not a profit. Having enough money to put away extra for a down payment on a bigger prettier house might be an example of a profit.

this can become a rabbit hole and is why each person should work out with the Lord what is right, imho. It is THE only way,

Yeah but most people run it through the filter the church has given them that makes them feel guilty and manipulated into paying tithing when they shouldn't be in the first place. So I agree with you it's an individual thing, but the church needs to shut up and quit manipulating people into keeping it rich.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This was exactly like my experience in pres Monson's Ward with the (ridiculously wealthy) Bishop who was in charge of the ward the last few years of his life.

I was a sick poor single mom raising a special needs child with no father in the picture and needed help. I was already going to the church for help, but they decided to cut me off and tell me I had to figure something else out.

My parents thought at the time instead of paying their money to the church, they could be using that money to help the poor. They wanted the church's approval to count that as tithing.

That Bishop wigged out. And I mean for real... The meeting ended with him towering over my mother and me sobbing our guts out, while this huge at least 6 ft 2 man red-faced BELLOWED at me and waved his arms at me (like in a way that make me feel scared for my physical safety), and told me "tithing was about OBEDIENCE not giving handouts", and proceeded to tell me how I needed to get on disability or put my kid in a home and go get a job because I was not the church's responsibility, and my parents tithing money belonged to the church and the Lord and I had no right to expect it, and they had no right to give it to me if they wanted the Lord's blessings.

(We all ended up leaving the church within a year of this incident as that was one of the last straws.)

That is a horrible experience. I'm sorry you had to be abused by this "shepherd." It breaks my heart to see what has become of the church.

[Obrien]

Joseph Smith taught that tithing funds should be used to lift and benefit the poor...keep that in mind as you read this:

"John H. Vandenberg tells a General Confernce story of a young girl (16) asking permission to give her tithing money directly to help her parents so they can meet bills and stay together: “’We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?’ The young lady should be commended for her desires to help her parents, but the matter would not be helped by diverting her tithing to the cause.” (John H. Vandenberg, Oct. 1966 CR, p.66); Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p.1123)"

This is beyond messed up...when you consider what Joseph taught about what tithing should be used for.

Now that we know about the 150 billion fund over at Ensign Peak Advisors...it just makes me nauseated.

This was exactly like my experience in pres Monson's Ward with the (ridiculously wealthy) Bishop who was in charge of the ward the last few years of his life.

I was a sick poor single mom raising a special needs child with no father in the picture and needed help. I was already going to the church for help, but they decided to cut me off and tell me I had to figure something else out.

My parents thought at the time instead of paying their money to the church, they could be using that money to help the poor. They wanted the church's approval to count that as tithing.

That Bishop wigged out. And I mean for real... The meeting ended with him towering over my mother and me sobbing our guts out, while this huge at least 6 ft 2 man red-faced BELLOWED at me and waved his arms at me (like in a way that make me feel scared for my physical safety), and told me "tithing was about OBEDIENCE not giving handouts", and proceeded to tell me how I needed to get on disability or put my kid in a home and go get a job because I was not the church's responsibility, and my parents tithing money belonged to the church and the Lord and I had no right to expect it, and they had no right to give it to me if they wanted the Lord's blessings.

(We all ended up leaving the church within a year of this incident as that was one of the last straws.)

My red pill moment was when my oldest daughter returned from her mission to South America. She was mentally, physically and spiritually broken - traumatized by a mission president who did not embody the high ideals of the gospel. It is amazing how effective church leaders can be at pushing people out of the nest.
For clarifications -
1 - We don't do "broken" in our family. We are descended from some bad @#$ pioneers and we suffer with a smile, [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]. Seeing her was hard, but it softened my heart to suffering.
2 -The MP did not physically abuse my daughter; it was the rigors of a very rough mission assignment. He absolutely mentally and spiritually abused her due to his racist, sexist, priesthood-holders-are-more-important-than-you viewpoint. @#$%! that guy.

[Ebenezer]

Roger Clarke, the big boss at Ensign Peak, said in a WSJ article that the slush fund was kept secret because if we knew about it we wouldn't pay tithing:

Latter-day Saint officials kept the size of the church’s $100 billion investment reserves secret for fear that public knowledge of the fund’s wealth might discourage members from paying tithing, according to the top executive who oversees the account.

For members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, tithing — donating 10% of one’s income to the faith — “is more of a sense of commitment than it is the church needing the money,” Roger Clarke, head of Ensign Peak Advisors, which manages the denomination’s investing holdings, told The Wall Street Journal.

“So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn’t make a contribution,” Clarke said.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Roger Clarke, the big boss at Ensign Peak, said in a WSJ article that the slush fund was kept secret because if we knew about it we wouldn't pay tithing:

Latter-day Saint officials kept the size of the church’s $100 billion investment reserves secret for fear that public knowledge of the fund’s wealth might discourage members from paying tithing, according to the top executive who oversees the account.

For members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, tithing — donating 10% of one’s income to the faith — “is more of a sense of commitment than it is the church needing the money,” Roger Clarke, head of Ensign Peak Advisors, which manages the denomination’s investing holdings, told The Wall Street Journal.

“So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn’t make a contribution,” Clarke said.

What a donkey's behind twisting of doctrine.

[silverado]

Joseph Smith taught that tithing funds should be used to lift and benefit the poor...keep that in mind as you read this:

"John H. Vandenberg tells a General Confernce story of a young girl (16) asking permission to give her tithing money directly to help her parents so they can meet bills and stay together: “’We have family prayer but not very often any more because Mom and Dad are always fighting about money. We have lots of bills to pay each month, and my dad is working two jobs to make more money. I am wondering if it is all right for me, since I have a job at a drive-in, to give my money to my mother and skip tithing for a while?’ The young lady should be commended for her desires to help her parents, but the matter would not be helped by diverting her tithing to the cause.” (John H. Vandenberg, Oct. 1966 CR, p.66); Improvement Era, Dec. 1966, p.1123)"

This is beyond messed up...when you consider what Joseph taught about what tithing should be used for.

Now that we know about the 150 billion fund over at Ensign Peak Advisors...it just makes me nauseated.

This was exactly like my experience in pres Monson's Ward with the (ridiculously wealthy) Bishop who was in charge of the ward the last few years of his life.

I was a sick poor single mom raising a special needs child with no father in the picture and needed help. I was already going to the church for help, but they decided to cut me off and tell me I had to figure something else out.

My parents thought at the time instead of paying their money to the church, they could be using that money to help the poor. They wanted the church's approval to count that as tithing.

That Bishop wigged out. And I mean for real... The meeting ended with him towering over my mother and me sobbing our guts out, while this huge at least 6 ft 2 man red-faced BELLOWED at me and waved his arms at me (like in a way that make me feel scared for my physical safety), and told me "tithing was about OBEDIENCE not giving handouts", and proceeded to tell me how I needed to get on disability or put my kid in a home and go get a job because I was not the church's responsibility, and my parents tithing money belonged to the church and the Lord and I had no right to expect it, and they had no right to give it to me if they wanted the Lord's blessings.

(We all ended up leaving the church within a year of this incident as that was one of the last straws.)

I am SO sorry that happened to you! No one should be treated like that!

In my years in the church I have seen active members in need receive good help and active members, ill and in need, receive a lecture (and nothing else) for asking for food. Bishop roulette.