A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

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John Tavner
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A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.

Valo
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Posts: 974

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
O Pardon Me Thou Bleeding Piece Of Earth That I Am Meek And Gentle With These Butchers

I would dispute that Yeshua Messiah said "gentle". He said "meek" and meek and gentle are not the same thing.

And it matters.

...

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:48 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
O Pardon Me Thou Bleeding Piece Of Earth That I Am Meek And Gentle With These Butchers

I would dispute that Yeshua Messiah said "gentle". He said "meek" and meek and gentle are not the same thing.

And it matters.

...
That's fine. Use whatever translation you want. I'm not here to dispute or argue the translation. What does it mean? is my question for those who believe in living the old Jewish laws.

Here is the word in greek hopefully to avoid any further comment on translation :Cognate: 4239 praýs (also listed as 4239a/praupathia in NAS dictionary) – meek. See 4236 (praótēs). This difficult-to-translate root (pra-) means more than "meek." Biblical meekness is not weakness but rather refers to exercising God's strength under His control – i.e. demonstrating power without undue harshness.

[The English term "meek" often lacks this blend – i.e. of gentleness (reserve) and strength.]

Valo
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:48 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
O Pardon Me Thou Bleeding Piece Of Earth That I Am Meek And Gentle With These Butchers

I would dispute that Yeshua Messiah said "gentle". He said "meek" and meek and gentle are not the same thing.

And it matters.

...
That's fine. Use whatever translation you want. I'm not here to dispute or argue the translation. What does it mean? is my question for those who believe in living the old Jewish laws.
Ok glad you won't dispute that it meek not gentle.

Christ is retrained but will correct you and chastise you when its appropriate or when you veere of the path, He reigns you in and it might be painful to your ego and it will require you take corrective actions. If a horse disobeys His master when being corrected or just keeps on doing its own thing the Master will get rid of that horse cause He can't trust it.

Christ never corrects you because of pride always in humility and serving Him is a delight as His teachings will help you to see the world and it's burden for what it truly is and He comforts us in our times of need. And we can be encouraged that He is a faithful Captain who will not abandon those He takes under His Wings.

...

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:59 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:48 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
O Pardon Me Thou Bleeding Piece Of Earth That I Am Meek And Gentle With These Butchers

I would dispute that Yeshua Messiah said "gentle". He said "meek" and meek and gentle are not the same thing.

And it matters.

...
That's fine. Use whatever translation you want. I'm not here to dispute or argue the translation. What does it mean? is my question for those who believe in living the old Jewish laws.
Ok glad you won't dispute that it meek not gentle.

Christ is retrained but will correct you and chastise you when its appropriate or when you veere of the path, He reigns you in and it might be painful to your ego and it will require you take corrective actions. If a horse disobeys His master when being corrected or just keeps on doing its own thing the Master will get rid of that horse cause He can't trust it.

Christ never corrects you because of pride always in humility and serving Him is a delight as His teachings will help you to see the world and it's burden for what it truly is and He comforts us in our times of need. And we can be encouraged that He is a faithful Captain who will not abandon those He takes under His Wings.

...
Side note/ fun fact: I train horses - and almost all the time if the horse "continues" to disobeys it is because of poor training and bad communication on the part of the trainer- rarely is it the horses fault, and even if it is the horse's fault it is because the horse has been severely injured in some way and the trainer doesn't see it (again kind of trainer fault) - through poor training or other severe injury i.e. kicked in the head, but even then it really isn't the horses fault it is just a condition of life etc... .

So, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to understand and so am trying to put it succinctly, if my understanding is wrong and the nuance is wrong feel free to correct.
You believe that Christ is being retrained in us and will chastise us when we veer of the path (what kind of chastisement does he proffer). Continuing the example of a horse, horses learn from the release of pressure and not from pressure itself. Would you say His pressure/chastisement is adding pressure more than relieving pressure or a mix? Is that his Yoke part that is easy?

When we are are corrected by Christ, it is always humble, not for his own gain but for ours and his correction changes our perspective? This change in perspective allows us to bear our burdens as others, but they are lighter because of our perspective? He also comforts us and is always seeking to guide us. We can also believe/know that He is a captain that will not abandon ship (us being the ship) and so with that perspective we can have encouragement/peace. That is how his burden is light?

Valo
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:18 pm
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:59 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:48 pm

O Pardon Me Thou Bleeding Piece Of Earth That I Am Meek And Gentle With These Butchers

I would dispute that Yeshua Messiah said "gentle". He said "meek" and meek and gentle are not the same thing.

And it matters.

...
That's fine. Use whatever translation you want. I'm not here to dispute or argue the translation. What does it mean? is my question for those who believe in living the old Jewish laws.
Ok glad you won't dispute that it meek not gentle.

Christ is retrained but will correct you and chastise you when its appropriate or when you veere of the path, He reigns you in and it might be painful to your ego and it will require you take corrective actions. If a horse disobeys His master when being corrected or just keeps on doing its own thing the Master will get rid of that horse cause He can't trust it.

Christ never corrects you because of pride always in humility and serving Him is a delight as His teachings will help you to see the world and it's burden for what it truly is and He comforts us in our times of need. And we can be encouraged that He is a faithful Captain who will not abandon those He takes under His Wings.

...
Side note/ fun fact: I train horses - and almost all the time if the horse "continues" to disobeys it is because of poor training and bad communication on the part of the trainer- rarely is it the horses fault, and even if it is the horse's fault it is because the horse has been severely injured in some way and the trainer doesn't see it (again kind of trainer fault) - through poor training or other severe injury i.e. kicked in the head, but even then it really isn't the horses fault it is just a condition of life etc... .

So, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to understand and so am trying to put it succinctly, if my understanding is wrong and the nuance is wrong feel free to correct.
You believe that Christ is being retrained in us and will chastise us when we veer of the path (what kind of chastisement does he proffer). Continuing the example of a horse, horses learn from the release of pressure and not from pressure itself. Would you say His pressure/chastisement is adding pressure more than relieving pressure or a mix? Is that his Yoke part that is easy?

When we are are corrected by Christ, it is always humble, not for his own gain but for ours and his correction changes our perspective? This change in perspective allows us to bear our burdens as others, but they are lighter because of our perspective? He also comforts us and is always seeking to guide us. We can also believe/know that He is a captain that will not abandon ship (us being the ship) and so with that perspective we can have encouragement/peace. That is how his burden is light?
Captain is also Head

But also military Captain and Warhorse

A horse is comforted by the touch of a good Master

We will be corrected and our Captain expects us to do His will not just whatever we want or think is cool.

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—
2 Wherefore, ye must needs be chastened and stand rebuked before my face;

His chastisement is retrained but just and only because its what we need. Only the wicked take the Truth to be hard.

The confidence of things which are true that are not seen brings power and comfort.

...

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

So Christ's yoke is easy because his chastisement is only what we need and only because it is what we need?

His burden is light because of the confidence that is produced from faith?

Valo
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 8:03 pm So Christ's yoke is easy because his chastisement is only what we need and only because it is what we need?

His burden is light because of the confidence that is produced from faith?
It's literally light

A very skilled smith working for a good Master loves his labors because of the love for his Master. He labors diligently because of the faith in his Master and not because of any other desires. The way is narrow and straight. Those who walk the path will be constrained. Their character refined to be made pure requires you let go of all slag. In order to make a sword you have to beat the impurities out of it. Literally you have to beat it over and over and finally you have something good enough to be wielded by a God.

We are nothing. Less than the dust of the Earth. We are worms.

We will be tested and tried and through these trials made pure. The yoke we place upon us will be that of pulling the Master's load which is bringing about the work of Light. But it is a labor and it requires we be disciplined and diligent and a good Master will chastise those He loves because He is shaping them in to something better.

Friends laboring together comfort one another and find comfort and joy in the labor of Light or Pure Love of Christ

...

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SJR3t2
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by SJR3t2 »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
David stated in Psalms that YHWH's laws are easy. The yoke is the "cross" that is used for the where two animals work together and the master puts a more experienced one with a learning one.

Many verses after 3 Nephi 11 showing Torah is still valid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:01 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
David stated in Psalms that YHWH's laws are easy. The yoke is the "cross" that is used for the where two animals work together and the master puts a more experienced one with a learning one.

Many verses after 3 Nephi 11 showing Torah is still valid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUl1lc ... n&index=35
So you believe His yoke are the laws which are easy to live. What is His burden which is light?

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?

Valo
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
To happily deal with ridicule and being mocked.

To die for the One True God because you will not deny HIM.

To suffer pain and more pain for His sake.

To mourn for the sins of the world.

To mourn for the loss of all lovely things we could have had

To mourn for those who suffer under the hand of the oppressor

To lift up burdens of others

When we labor in love towards God and all men our labors are a joy and it is light. Our suffering, real and true and we must work and get hurt, but the suffering gets swallowed up by the joy of our righteous cause.

...

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John Tavner
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:43 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
To happily deal with ridicule and being mocked.

To die for the One True God because you will not deny HIM.

To suffer pain and more pain for His sake.

To mourn for the sins of the world.

To mourn for the loss of all lovely things we could have had

To mourn for those who suffer under the hand of the oppressor

To lift up burdens of others

When we labor in love towards God and all men our labors are a joy and it is light. Our suffering, real and true and we must work and get hurt, but the suffering gets swallowed up by the joy of our righteous cause.

...
So to make sure I'm understanding clearly you are saying that mourning for ourselves and others, suffering for God and for ourselves, helping others and laboring for others is what Jesus meant when He said "my burden is light?"

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
Apparently, Jesus’ listeners knew about the yoke He was referring to. It was the “yoke of heaven.”

David wrote about his love for the law in the following terms:
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul…
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart:
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever:
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold…sweeter also than honey…
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
~Psalms 19


Paul and the author of Acts go and flip that upside down, making God’s law a curse and a byword. Perhaps that should cause us some concern.

One would suppose that the law allows one to be yoked with heaven/God, who is mighty in strength, making whatever burden is being borne light.

Interesting also that yokes are typically placed on the same animal that is associated with the high priest of Israel.

The ideas linking law and divine love still persist even today, as seen in the following paper intro:
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nightlight
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by nightlight »

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

---------------

What strict laws were given to Israel because of their slowness to hear God?

Valo
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Posts: 974

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:33 am
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:43 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm

First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
To happily deal with ridicule and being mocked.

To die for the One True God because you will not deny HIM.

To suffer pain and more pain for His sake.

To mourn for the sins of the world.

To mourn for the loss of all lovely things we could have had

To mourn for those who suffer under the hand of the oppressor

To lift up burdens of others

When we labor in love towards God and all men our labors are a joy and it is light. Our suffering, real and true and we must work and get hurt, but the suffering gets swallowed up by the joy of our righteous cause.

...
So to make sure I'm understanding clearly you are saying that mourning for ourselves and others, suffering for God and for ourselves, helping others and laboring for others is what Jesus meant when He said "my burden is light?"
No. Keep studying. Lot's of good information in this post.

...

User avatar
John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:33 am
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:43 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm

So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
To happily deal with ridicule and being mocked.

To die for the One True God because you will not deny HIM.

To suffer pain and more pain for His sake.

To mourn for the sins of the world.

To mourn for the loss of all lovely things we could have had

To mourn for those who suffer under the hand of the oppressor

To lift up burdens of others

When we labor in love towards God and all men our labors are a joy and it is light. Our suffering, real and true and we must work and get hurt, but the suffering gets swallowed up by the joy of our righteous cause.

...
So to make sure I'm understanding clearly you are saying that mourning for ourselves and others, suffering for God and for ourselves, helping others and laboring for others is what Jesus meant when He said "my burden is light?"
No. Keep studying. Lot's of good information in this post.

...
Are you saying it is a change in perspective? because you literally say it is mourning and suffering. I'm happy to listen if you want to explain more clearly so I can understand exactly what you are saying. I wouldn't have asked the question otherwise. To understand where I'm coming from, The gospel/ THe message Christ gives ought to be simple because I am to come to Him as a little child. So If I as a little child can't understand it then I ask more questions. If questions aren't answered, then it makes me think it is more complicated. So help me understand what your view is on this, and if you so desire, please be like "Nephi" enjoying speaking in plainness regardless of whether my ears and eyes are blocked and blind.

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Pazooka
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Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:36 am 29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

---------------

What strict laws were given to Israel because of their slowness to hear God?
Look at that passage of scripture in context. The Lord sent Abinadi as a prophet with a message. Nowhere in the message, which Abinadi gives to us in what looks like word for word does the Lord actually talk about the Law of Moses that way. Rather, it would have been a tradition passed down to him from his fathers, Lehi and Nephi, who escaped Jerusalem at the height of Deuteronomic tyranny, who had turned the law into something worthy of ridicule.

And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.
21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.
22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.
24 Yea, and it shall come to pass that when they shall cry unto me I will be slow to hear their cries; yea, and I will suffer them that they be smitten by their enemies.
25 And except they repent in sackcloth and ashes, and cry mightily to the Lord their God, I will not hear their prayers, neither will I deliver them out of their afflictions; and thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me.
26 Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them they were wroth with him, and sought to take away his life; but the Lord delivered him out of their hands. ~ Mosiah 11


Did you see where the Lord made any commmentary on the law of Moses? Me neither. He is warning them because they are not obeying the law.

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John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:43 am
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 pm Not a challenging question, I"m more curious - What do you believe Jesus meant when He said in Matt 11: "29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
I guess the question might better be posed as do you see that a future promise rather than one that can be applied now? Feel free to explain your views on this scripture.
First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
Apparently, Jesus’ listeners knew about the yoke He was referring to. It was the “yoke of heaven.”

David wrote about his love for the law in the following terms:
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul…
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart:
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever:
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold…sweeter also than honey…
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
~Psalms 19


Paul and the author of Acts go and flip that upside down, making God’s law a curse and a byword. Perhaps that should cause us some concern.

One would suppose that the law allows one to be yoked with heaven/God, who is mighty in strength, making whatever burden is being borne light.

Interesting also that yokes are typically placed on the same animal that is associated with the high priest of Israel.

The ideas linking law and divine love still persist even today, as seen in the following paper intro:
This isn't about Paul- we have another thread on that. I'm asking questions about what you believe (as it appears you ahve become a believer in living hte old Israelite laws) Jesus meant when He said His Yoke is easy and His burden is light etc..
Ok. So the Yoke is heaven, and not the law- what does it mean that it is easy? What does it mean that His burden is light?

"29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle (meek or whatever you interpret the greek word to be) and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Valo
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Posts: 974

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Valo »

John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:20 am
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:33 am
Valo wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:43 pm

To happily deal with ridicule and being mocked.

To die for the One True God because you will not deny HIM.

To suffer pain and more pain for His sake.

To mourn for the sins of the world.

To mourn for the loss of all lovely things we could have had

To mourn for those who suffer under the hand of the oppressor

To lift up burdens of others

When we labor in love towards God and all men our labors are a joy and it is light. Our suffering, real and true and we must work and get hurt, but the suffering gets swallowed up by the joy of our righteous cause.

...
So to make sure I'm understanding clearly you are saying that mourning for ourselves and others, suffering for God and for ourselves, helping others and laboring for others is what Jesus meant when He said "my burden is light?"
No. Keep studying. Lot's of good information in this post.

...
Are you saying it is a change in perspective? because you literally say it is mourning and suffering. I'm happy to listen if you want to explain more clearly so I can understand exactly what you are saying. I wouldn't have asked the question otherwise. To understand where I'm coming from, The gospel/ THe message Christ gives ought to be simple because I am to come to Him as a little child. So If I as a little child can't understand it then I ask more questions. If questions aren't answered, then it makes me think it is more complicated. So help me understand what your view is on this, and if you so desire, please be like "Nephi" enjoying speaking in plainness regardless of whether my ears and eyes are blocked and blind.
Ask The Father in the name of the Son for humility and a contrite spirit and perhaps your eyes may be opened and your ears may be unplugged.

...

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nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by nightlight »

Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:22 am
nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:36 am 29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

---------------

What strict laws were given to Israel because of their slowness to hear God?
Look at that passage of scripture in context. The Lord sent Abinadi as a prophet with a message. Nowhere in the message, which Abinadi gives to us in what looks like word for word does the Lord actually talk about the Law of Moses that way. Rather, it would have been a tradition passed down to him from his fathers, Lehi and Nephi, who escaped Jerusalem at the height of Deuteronomic tyranny, who had turned the law into something worthy of ridicule.

And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.
21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.
22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.
24 Yea, and it shall come to pass that when they shall cry unto me I will be slow to hear their cries; yea, and I will suffer them that they be smitten by their enemies.
25 And except they repent in sackcloth and ashes, and cry mightily to the Lord their God, I will not hear their prayers, neither will I deliver them out of their afflictions; and thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me.
26 Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them they were wroth with him, and sought to take away his life; but the Lord delivered him out of their hands. ~ Mosiah 11


Did you see where the Lord made any commmentary on the law of Moses? Me neither. He is warning them because they are not obeying the law.
To say half of Abinadi message was true and half was just passed down false tradition is a silly game to play with the Book of Mormon.

I don't know how you can try to make yourself believe that Lehi&kids didn't understand the difference between the law and what the Jews added to the law.
They were learned in ALL the ways of the Jews.
You simply don't have the means to even come close to grasping their understanding of the all things Israel.

This is part of the message he was giving to them from God.
And it is a recurring theme in the Book of Mormon.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.
----------------



2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


To say the above is false is to say these men were false prophets. It's that simple.

User avatar
John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by John Tavner »

Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:57 am
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:20 am
Valo wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:43 am
John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:33 am

So to make sure I'm understanding clearly you are saying that mourning for ourselves and others, suffering for God and for ourselves, helping others and laboring for others is what Jesus meant when He said "my burden is light?"
No. Keep studying. Lot's of good information in this post.

...
Are you saying it is a change in perspective? because you literally say it is mourning and suffering. I'm happy to listen if you want to explain more clearly so I can understand exactly what you are saying. I wouldn't have asked the question otherwise. To understand where I'm coming from, The gospel/ THe message Christ gives ought to be simple because I am to come to Him as a little child. So If I as a little child can't understand it then I ask more questions. If questions aren't answered, then it makes me think it is more complicated. So help me understand what your view is on this, and if you so desire, please be like "Nephi" enjoying speaking in plainness regardless of whether my ears and eyes are blocked and blind.
Ask The Father in the name of the Son for humility and a contrite spirit and perhaps your eyes may be opened and your ears may be unplugged.

...
In regards to your answer? or the scripture? The advice is good and I often Ask God that my eyes be opened if I am blind and my ears be opened if I am deaf, thank you for the encouragement, God truly does open eyes and ears, that beings said, this isn't about what I believe, though I've done the aforementioned advice). I'm asking what you believe it means and seeking to understand what you mean when you say the words you say.
Last edited by John Tavner on January 25th, 2023, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pazooka
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Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

John Tavner wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:24 am
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 9:43 am
John Tavner wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 24th, 2023, 11:00 pm

First of all, they’re not old Jewish laws. They were given to all the House of Israel.

Those who forsook the law were said to have “cast off the yoke.”

Law = commandments

We have an example in the BofM of a people, living the “Law of Moses” who had this to say about it:
I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven ~ Mosiah 2:41

***note that the Nephite observance and interpretation of the law may have been more wholesome and pure than what was practiced and taught in Jerusalem at the time (because we know they were destroyed and scattered)

We should probably take Jesus at his word and “learn from” Him - He observed the law. He gave the law.

Problem is, we might not have sufficient knowledge to allow us to do that at this time. A restoration would have to take place. But that is exactly what the BofM and Isaiah describe: once the fullness of the Gentiles is “come in” there will be a restoration of the House of Israel, starting with a “remnant of Jacob.” I have a feeling that this is a topic that will only tend to grow and become of more interest until that takes place. Praise be to God.

The hearts of the children will turn to the fathers
So the law =commandments = the yoke? So you also believe living the law according to the Old Testament commands = the easy part?

What is the Burden? And what makes it light?
Apparently, Jesus’ listeners knew about the yoke He was referring to. It was the “yoke of heaven.”

David wrote about his love for the law in the following terms:
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul…
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart:
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever:
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold…sweeter also than honey…
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
~Psalms 19


Paul and the author of Acts go and flip that upside down, making God’s law a curse and a byword. Perhaps that should cause us some concern.

One would suppose that the law allows one to be yoked with heaven/God, who is mighty in strength, making whatever burden is being borne light.

Interesting also that yokes are typically placed on the same animal that is associated with the high priest of Israel.

The ideas linking law and divine love still persist even today, as seen in the following paper intro:
This isn't about Paul- we have another thread on that. I'm asking questions about what you believe (as it appears you ahve become a believer in living hte old Israelite laws) Jesus meant when He said His Yoke is easy and His burden is light etc..
Ok. So the Yoke is heaven, and not the law- what does it mean that it is easy? What does it mean that His burden is light?

"29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle (meek or whatever you interpret the greek word to be) and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Paul is relevant

Yoke is not heaven

Maybe read again

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Pazooka
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Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: A question For those that believe in living the old Jewish Laws

Post by Pazooka »

nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:22 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 25th, 2023, 11:22 am
nightlight wrote: January 25th, 2023, 10:36 am 29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

---------------

What strict laws were given to Israel because of their slowness to hear God?
Look at that passage of scripture in context. The Lord sent Abinadi as a prophet with a message. Nowhere in the message, which Abinadi gives to us in what looks like word for word does the Lord actually talk about the Law of Moses that way. Rather, it would have been a tradition passed down to him from his fathers, Lehi and Nephi, who escaped Jerusalem at the height of Deuteronomic tyranny, who had turned the law into something worthy of ridicule.

And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.
21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.
22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.
24 Yea, and it shall come to pass that when they shall cry unto me I will be slow to hear their cries; yea, and I will suffer them that they be smitten by their enemies.
25 And except they repent in sackcloth and ashes, and cry mightily to the Lord their God, I will not hear their prayers, neither will I deliver them out of their afflictions; and thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me.
26 Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them they were wroth with him, and sought to take away his life; but the Lord delivered him out of their hands. ~ Mosiah 11


Did you see where the Lord made any commmentary on the law of Moses? Me neither. He is warning them because they are not obeying the law.
To say half of Abinadi message was true and half was just passed down false tradition is a silly game to play with the Book of Mormon.

I don't know how you can try to make yourself believe that Lehi&kids didn't understand the difference between the law and what the Jews added to the law.
They were learned in ALL the ways of the Jews.
You simply don't have the means to even come close to grasping their understanding of the all things Israel.

This is part of the message he was giving to them from God.
And it is a recurring theme in the Book of Mormon.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.
----------------



2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


To say the above is false is to say these men were false prophets. It's that simple.
I so called that one…knew you would resort to ridiculing at this stage of the argument. Ridicule then reiterate. Not really adding anything new to the discussion.

When is a prophet a prophet? When he is delivering the Lord’s message.

Why does the BofM matter if it is not all word for word quoting the Lord. Because it details the relationship between the Lord and His people, from their side, mostly.

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