Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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Christianlee
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Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Christianlee »

When I joined the LDS Church 50 years ago birth control was strongly discouraged. Families with 6-12 children weren't unusual. I can remember being surprised when an article in the Ensign seemed to approve of it.

That was in the late 80s. It seems to have become the beginning of the slippery slope.

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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The slippery slope and compromise(s) with Babylon began long, long before birth control.

At this point we’re like frogs who have been boiled slowly in Babylonian bathwater for over 150 years, arguably beginning when BY insisted that the transcontinental railroad run through Utah.

viewtopic.php?t=69065&start=1100

But it’s true, the farther we get down the slope, the steeper and slipperier it gets.
Last edited by tmac on January 24th, 2023, 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Christianlee
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Christianlee »

David O. McKay - First Presidency Letter to Bishops and Stake Presidents Date April 14, 1969

“We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity.

“Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by.

“However, we feel that men must be considerate of their wives who bear the greater responsibility not only of bearing children, but of caring for them through childhood. To this end the mother's health and strength should be conserved and the husband's consideration for his wife is his first duty, and self-control a dominant factor in all their relationships.

“It is our further feeling that married couples should seek inspiration and wisdom from the Lord that they may exercise discretion in solving their marital problems, and that they may be permitted to rear their children in accordance with the teachings of the gospel."(Ensign, May 1971, 19; "Editorial: Population, Pollution, and You," Ensign, June 1971, 129)”

The common idea was that artificial birth control was wrong. The idea seemed to be abstaining through self control was the way to limit births. Artificial birth control was commonly referred to as a wicked practice.
Last edited by Christianlee on January 24th, 2023, 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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I definitely agree that BC is one of many ways in which the Church has embraced Babylon, and gone along with the World, but it is just one of many. At this point it is very difficult to distinguish the Church and its members from Babylon.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by MikeMaillet »

tmac wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 7:48 pm The slippery slope and compromise(s) with Babylon began long, long before birth control.

At this point we’re like frogs who have been boiled slowly in Babylonian bathwater for over 150 years, arguably beginning when BY insisted that the transcontinental railroad run through Utah.

viewtopic.php?t=69065&start=1100

But it’s true, the farther we get down the slope, the steeper and slipperier it gets.
Thanks for sharing that bit about Brigham and the railroad. A few years ago I would have asked why this was a bad thing. I now understand it to be the beginning of the trade of things of Babylon by the Saints living in Utah.

Mike

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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What is the best way to avoid becoming part of Babylon? — Flee Babylon, and maintain separation. At one point the Mormons did flee, but then failed to maintain separation, and invited Babylon into their midst. At this point the fruits should be fairly obvious. The record speaks for itself.

Christianlee
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Christianlee »

tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:26 am I definitely agree that BC is one of many ways in which the Church has embraced Babylon, and gone along with the World, but it is just one of many. At this point it is very difficult to distinguish the Church and its members from Babylon.
But did acceptance of birth control usher in the liberalizing attitudes we see today regarding deviant lifestyles? When sex is mainly about pleasure, do attitudes change about same sex relationships and even worse?

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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Definitely part of it, just like college education, women in the workforce, consumptive career focus, worldliness, materialism, keeping up with the Joneses, etc., etc., etc. It’s all part and parcel of the slippery slope. But clearly, BC, and loss, among other things, of a family focus, is a big part of it. Today, BC — which was once considered an “evil” practice, is now the norm, and fully accepted. In fact, it’s actually worse than that. The tables have completely turned. Consumptive, recreational sex and gay marriage are now fully acceptable, while large families are now viewed as evil and selfish, and unacceptable.
Last edited by tmac on January 24th, 2023, 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

Christianlee
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Christianlee »

tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:33 am What is the best way to avoid becoming part of Babylon? — Flee Babylon, and maintain separation. At one point the Mormons did flee, but then failed to maintain separation, and invited Babylon into their midst. At this point the fruits should be fairly obvious. The record speaks for itself.
The Amish maintain separation by their lifestyles even in the midst of the Babylon around them. Economically, they have to deal with the “English.” The Amish don’t practice birth control and have large families. 90% of their children stay Amish. They have an excellent school system apart from the “English”. Perhaps Mormons would have more success with their children if they had more children and their own schools.

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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I completely agree. But the Amish have their own challenges. Smartphones will break down the wall of separation, lead them into Babylon, and ultimately down the same path.

Just like both Lot and his wife learned, it’s hard to turn away from Sodom. Even Lot was not able to bring himself to turn the door of his house away from Sodom. Likewise, when Amish teenagers get a smartphone as part of their “rumsprynga” experience, and let the phone get its addictive claws into them, it’s hard to turn away from it.

150+ years ago BY opened the door to Sodom, and invited Babylon right into Zion. But now we (and the Amish) can hold Babylon right in our hands.
Last edited by tmac on January 24th, 2023, 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

simpleton
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by simpleton »

tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:51 am I completely agree. But the Amish have their own challenges. Smartphones will break down the wall of separation, lead them into Babylon, and ultimately down the same path.

When Amish teenagers do “rumsprynga,” get a smartphone and let the phone get its addictive claws into them, it’s hard to turn away from it.

150+ years ago BY invited Babylon into Zion, but now we can hold Babylon right in our hands.
Why is it that BY is the go to "totally his fault" on everything 🤔. Oh well.

In regards to BC, yes, murdering our offspring I would say is the worst of crimes "Zion" is guilty of.

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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The record speaks for itself. After separating and fleeing Babylon, the Church had the opportunity to establish Zion and maintain separation. Instead, BY invited Babylon right into Zion, and the rest is history. The record does speak for itself.

viewtopic.php?t=69065&start=1100

Christianlee
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Christianlee »

Perhaps the Church realized a working couple, both with large incomes, can bring in more tithing than a stay-at-home mom trying to handle eight children. The McMansions of the Wasatch Front seem to validate it.

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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Perhaps. Either way, at this point it is pretty tough to distinguish the Church from Babylon. But you make a good point, we have now reached a point where most Mormons would probably rather have a McMansion than children. And the corresponding extra tithing income does seem to be more important to the Church than more children.

Christianlee
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Christianlee »

tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:44 am Perhaps. Either way, at this point it is pretty tough to distinguish the Church from Babylon. But you make a good point, we have now reached a point where most Mormons would probably rather have a McMansion than children. And the corresponding extra tithing income does seem to be more important to the Church than more children.
The feminists approve.

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David13
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by David13 »

Birth control is one of the compromises. It may not at all be the first.

Birth control asks the question, what is the purpose of sex? Procreation, or recreation. Having children, or reckreation (like playing tennis), not re-creation. (Intentionally misspelled)
dc

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:33 am What is the best way to avoid becoming part of Babylon? — Flee Babylon, and maintain separation. At one point the Mormons did flee, but then failed to maintain separation, and invited Babylon into their midst. At this point the fruits should be fairly obvious. The record speaks for itself.
It's also possible that Babylon was already in their midst, in the hearts and aspirations of certain men clothed as sheep.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Christianlee wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:02 am David O. McKay - First Presidency Letter to Bishops and Stake Presidents Date April 14, 1969

“We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity.

“Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by.

“However, we feel that men must be considerate of their wives who bear the greater responsibility not only of bearing children, but of caring for them through childhood. To this end the mother's health and strength should be conserved and the husband's consideration for his wife is his first duty, and self-control a dominant factor in all their relationships.

“It is our further feeling that married couples should seek inspiration and wisdom from the Lord that they may exercise discretion in solving their marital problems, and that they may be permitted to rear their children in accordance with the teachings of the gospel."(Ensign, May 1971, 19; "Editorial: Population, Pollution, and You," Ensign, June 1971, 129)”

The common idea was that artificial birth control was wrong. The idea seemed to be abstaining through self control was the way to limit births. Artificial birth control was commonly referred to as a wicked practice.
Thanks for this quote. If it wasn't for the B. Campbell thread, the significance of the subtext here (including who gave it and when) would've completely evaded me.
Last edited by Dusty Wanderer on January 24th, 2023, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:44 am Perhaps. Either way, at this point it is pretty tough to distinguish the Church from Babylon. But you make a good point, we have now reached a point where most Mormons would probably rather have a McMansion than children. And the corresponding extra tithing income does seem to be more important to the Church than more children.
Exactly.

In church on Sunday, a nice, relatively young sister (new to the ward) gave a talk and by way of introduction mentioned she divorced a little over a year ago. She tried to not get into any details, which is good in that setting. Well, she said he was a "good man", that that they just wanted different things, that his wishes for her were "too traditional". After the divorce she went on to finish her MBA and remarked how blessed she is financially now, able to "experience the world" (no joke) and has a great job that she hopes to have for "the rest of her life". (She's teaching business at a prominent university in Utah County.)

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:26 am
tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:33 am What is the best way to avoid becoming part of Babylon? — Flee Babylon, and maintain separation. At one point the Mormons did flee, but then failed to maintain separation, and invited Babylon into their midst. At this point the fruits should be fairly obvious. The record speaks for itself.
It's also possible that Babylon was already in their midst, in the hearts and aspirations of certain men clothed as sheep.
Yes, no doubt. And I hate to say it, but the same with the Founding Fathers. If you really understand the Federalist/Anti-federalist Debate, you will realize that what we have today is essentially exactly what Federalists like Alexander Hamilton envisioned, versus the Anti-federalists. Same thing in the Church. Clearly, what the Church and "Zion" have become is exactly what some Church leaders were already starting to envision 150 years ago -- full acceptance by, and participation in, "The World." At this point, the good ship Zion has almost reached that destination.
Last edited by tmac on January 24th, 2023, 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

HVDC
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by HVDC »

Christianlee wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:45 am
tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:33 am What is the best way to avoid becoming part of Babylon? — Flee Babylon, and maintain separation. At one point the Mormons did flee, but then failed to maintain separation, and invited Babylon into their midst. At this point the fruits should be fairly obvious. The record speaks for itself.
The Amish maintain separation by their lifestyles even in the midst of the Babylon around them. Economically, they have to deal with the “English.” The Amish don’t practice birth control and have large families. 90% of their children stay Amish. They have an excellent school system apart from the “English”. Perhaps Mormons would have more success with their children if they had more children and their own schools.
They used to.

What changed?

Oh yeah.

We did.

Line upon line works both days.

Sir H

HVDC
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by HVDC »

tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:51 am
Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:26 am
tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 6:33 am What is the best way to avoid becoming part of Babylon? — Flee Babylon, and maintain separation. At one point the Mormons did flee, but then failed to maintain separation, and invited Babylon into their midst. At this point the fruits should be fairly obvious. The record speaks for itself.
It's also possible that Babylon was already in their midst, in the hearts and aspirations of certain men clothed as sheep.
Yes, no doubt. And I hate to say it, but the same with the Founding Fathers. If you really understand the Federalist/Anti-federalist Debate, you will realize that what we have today is essentially exactly what Federalists like Alexander Hamilton envisioned, versus the Anti-federalists. Same thing in the Church. Clearly, what the Church and "Zion" have become is exactly what some Church leaders were already starting to envision 150 years ago -- full acceptance by, and participation in, "The World." At this point, the good ship Zion has almost reached that destination.
An enemy hath done this indeed.

Sir H

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

Post by tmac »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:39 am
tmac wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:44 am Perhaps. Either way, at this point it is pretty tough to distinguish the Church from Babylon. But you make a good point, we have now reached a point where most Mormons would probably rather have a McMansion than children. And the corresponding extra tithing income does seem to be more important to the Church than more children.
Exactly.

In church on Sunday, a nice, relatively young sister (new to the ward) gave a talk and by way of introduction mentioned she divorced a little over a year ago. She tried to not get into any details, which is good in that setting. Well, she said he was a "good man", that that they just wanted different things, that his wishes for her were "too traditional". After the divorce she went on to finish her MBA and remarked how blessed she is financially now, able to "experience the world" (no joke) and has a great job that she hopes to have for "the rest of her life". (She's teaching business at a prominent university in Utah County.)
An increasingly common narrative. And the now fully accepted justification for divorce: -- My worldly vision for my life did not match the more traditional vision of my husband -- so let's get divorced so that I don't need to deal that!

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TheDuke
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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Wow, I surely find there are many non-sexed or nutered folks here. I mean to feel BC is evil, is , well just stupid. I mean, any person who is married and has equal number of children to the number of times they've had sex either has no sex-drive or an ugly wife or both. I have 4 of my own, I would guess I'd be pretty in-line with folks here. Remarried with 4 more, carrying for 8 (adults but you know). I've been married 45 years. I guess you cannot count that past 15 or so, really as there comes a point a woman cannot get pregnant. So, 30 years, 4 kids................................ do the math on BC one way or another. To abstain if married is BC, to count days is BC, to dump seed on ground is BC. So any married without about 1 child a year for all marriage up to say 50 years old either uses some form of BC or has internal emotional problems. IMO.

This is an example thread where people take silly constraints and find evil for normal common sense. Even look at Abraham. Lived to what 120, like 80 years of marriage, and what 6 or more wives when he was done. He had how many children? maybe 10? Even prolific Jacob had maybe 15 counting girls with 4 wives and entire life time... obviously using some form of BC.

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tmac
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Re: Birth control as the beginning of compromise

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Or, you can do like the Amish, and leave birth control to God.

No body is saying that the only reason to have sex is for reproductive purposes, but that is barely even on the table any more. At this point, very, very little sex is for reproductive purposes.

In some tough times past, a couple might have 10-12 babies, and only have 3-4 of them survive to adulthood. But, now that we live in times of plenty, the more people have materially, the less interested they seem to be in partnering with God to help procreate and raise His children.

There is no question that the primary purpose for modern artificial birth control methods is so that women can work and have careers and make more money, and couples can have unrestricted recreational sex, without consequences. That's a pretty simple and indisputable reality. Is that the common sense you're talking about? Where does it fit into God's vision for what He would like to see happen?
Last edited by tmac on January 24th, 2023, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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