Which wars are actually justified?

[cboyack]

Latter-day Saints are a "warlike people" despite being commanded to "renounce war and proclaim peace." Even worse, they often fail to abide by modern revelation—one that is essentially ignored by the church—that spells out which wars are actually justified.

Subscribe to the podcast here.

[MikeMaillet]

Canada, USA, England, France, Germany, Italy... are all Christian countries and yet we were killing each other during the second world war. This is truly sad.

Mike

[Niemand]

Canada, USA, England, France, Germany, Italy... are all Christian countries and yet we were killing each other during the second world war. This is truly sad.

Mike

Not "are" anymore, "were".

[Light Seeker]

Latter-day Saints are a "warlike people" despite being commanded to "renounce war and proclaim peace." Even worse, they often fail to abide by modern revelation—one that is essentially ignored by the church—that spells out which wars are actually justified.

Subscribe to the podcast here.

But . But .

If it’s under the name of PATRIOTISM and for the flag then it’s justified and we aren’t personally responsible …………….

The cognitive dissonance is strong .

[larsenb]

My own strong belief is in Christian just war theory, for which the less strict version claims that the only just war is where you defend yourself, your family, your 'people'/nation only after being attacked in your own lands . . . and for no just reason.

The Book of Mormon strongly and repeatedly supports this theory and idea, with the Lord basically forbidding the Nephites in multiple instances from going up into the lands of the Lamanites to fight them for any reason.

[Valo]

Latter-day Saints are a "warlike people" despite being commanded to "renounce war and proclaim peace." Even worse, they often fail to abide by modern revelation—one that is essentially ignored by the church—that spells out which wars are actually justified.

Subscribe to the podcast here.

Wars of defense. If you are minding your business and have done nothing but try and obey God and some army comes and attacks you, you can fight back in justice.

...

[cboyack]

Christian "just war theory" can't be squared with modern revelation as I explain in the video.

[larsenb]

Christian "just war theory" can't be squared with modern revelation as I explain in the video.

Why don't you elaborate. This is a discussion forum.

[Valo]

Christian "just war theory" can't be squared with modern revelation as I explain in the video.

Which Christian espoused just war theory?

...

[Primary Outcast]

I wasn't even aware of all the democratically elected presidents the USA has removed and financial warfare we've conducted until recently. It's called red flag warfare. Look up what we did in Chile, Nicaragua, Haiti, Yemen, Egypt, Venezuela, Ukraine, it seems to go on and on. Of course the nations will come against us as prophecied.

[Robin Hood]

Canada, USA, England, France, Germany, Italy... are all Christian countries and yet we were killing each other during the second world war. This is truly sad.

Mike

Don't forget the Russians, Australians, New Zealanders etc.

[Robin Hood]

Christian "just war theory" can't be squared with modern revelation as I explain in the video.

Which Christian espoused just war theory?

...

I think it was St Augustine, but I may be wrong.

[Robin Hood]

Latter-day Saints are a "warlike people" despite being commanded to "renounce war and proclaim peace." Even worse, they often fail to abide by modern revelation—one that is essentially ignored by the church—that spells out which wars are actually justified.

Subscribe to the podcast here.

Couple of things:
Where did you get the figures for "demicide"?
Spencer W Kimball's talk was not a General Conference address. It was a speech given on the occasion of the US Bicentennial in July of 1976. And although we LDS are included, it was an address to the nation, not just the Mormons.

[Niemand]

Canada, USA, England, France, Germany, Italy... are all Christian countries and yet we were killing each other during the second world war. This is truly sad.

Mike

Don't forget the Russians, Australians, New Zealanders etc.

The Russians are a good example, because despite Communist state repression and constant atheist propaganda many Russians did remain Orthodox, and Stalin was clever enough to realise that he had to rope the Russian Church in to the war effort...

Like I say above, I am sceptical of most of Europe or the "white Commonwealth" being Christian these days. Certainly not these parts. The only place I can still see as being particularly Christian round here would be some parts of the Western Isles, but even there... unlike his mother, Charles makes little pretence of being a Christian. The main churches are in trouble, including the Catholics because of the abuse scandals and Francis being a major Weffer.

[Reluctant Watchman]

War is almost never justified and conflict resolution and seeking understanding should receive the highest priority and greatest effort. The only time violent actions are to be taken is when God commands. Which is extremely rare. There have been times when He doesn't command it and people are brought into slavery and subjugation, and through these means, the humble and pure in heart may yet be an example to their captors and change their hearts.

Can you imagine the self-mastery required of a strong people to not fight back against an opponent they know they could beat, all because God told them not to? (Think of the Ammonites) The very definition of "meekness" is bridled strength. I think there are few who could be that in tune with the Spirit. The tendencies of the natural man are strong.

[ransomme]

Latter-day Saints are a "warlike people" despite being commanded to "renounce war and proclaim peace." Even worse, they often fail to abide by modern revelation—one that is essentially ignored by the church—that spells out which wars are actually justified.

Subscribe to the podcast here.

Couple of things:
Where did you get the figures for "demicide"?
Spencer W Kimball's talk was not a General Conference address. It was a speech given on the occasion of the US Bicentennial in July of 1976. And although we LDS are included, it was an address to the nation, not just the Mormons.

The Bicentennial, then it is even more sacred! Just sayin'

USA
USA
USA

[Robin Hood]

Canada, USA, England, France, Germany, Italy... are all Christian countries and yet we were killing each other during the second world war. This is truly sad.

Mike

Don't forget the Russians, Australians, New Zealanders etc.

The Russians are a good example, because despite Communist state repression and constant atheist propaganda many Russians did remain Orthodox, and Stalin was clever enough to realise that he had to rope the Russian Church in to the war effort...

Like I say above, I am sceptical of most of Europe or the "white Commonwealth" being Christian these days. Certainly not these parts. The only place I can still see as being particularly Christian round here would be some parts of the Western Isles, but even there... unlike his mother, Charles makes little pretence of being a Christian. The main churches are in trouble, including the Catholics because of the abuse scandals and Francis being a major Weffer.

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

[Reluctant Watchman]

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

Maybe. Maybe not. Toward the end of the BoM, war caused the people to sow seeds of violence. They didn’t repent, they were unable to humble themselves. I hope we’ve learned from the past.

[Reluctant Watchman]

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

Maybe. Maybe not. Toward the end of the BoM, war caused the people to sow seeds of violence. They didn’t repent, they were unable to humble themselves. I hope we’ve learned from the past.

[Niemand]

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

We'll see. They didn't exactly flock to the churches because of the Covid thing or "cost of lockdowns", sorry "living", crisis. I think some will. And I hope they would.

There will be an element, especially of younger people who will not be able to bring themselves to it or will plunge themselves into Wicca and the New Age instead.

I was having yet another conversation about the Church of Scotland yesterday. (Which is a Presbyterian outfit for anyone reading this overseas.) I know someone who uses one of their churches for charity work but is not a member. I've seen firsthand that it's done some good. Anyway to cut a long story short, the building is shut nearly all week, and to use it for his charity he has had to go by the Kirk Session (their equivalent of a ward council), a facilities committee, an outreach committee and possibly another one. The bureaucracy is ridiculous and he says they don't
talk to each other. They almost have more committee members than congregants in that place and they're elderly in more ways than one. Despite this and their resistance to change, the Sunday School room (their equivalent to primary) is full of pictures of pansexual and transgender flags.

[Robin Hood]

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

We'll see. They didn't exactly flock to the churches because of the Covid thing or "cost of lockdowns", sorry "living", crisis. I think some will. And I hope they would.

There will be an element, especially of younger people who will not be able to bring themselves to it or will plunge themselves into Wicca and the New Age instead.

I was having yet another conversation about the Church of Scotland yesterday. (Which is a Presbyterian outfit for anyone reading this overseas.) I know someone who uses one of their churches for charity work but is not a member. I've seen firsthand that it's done some good. Anyway to cut a long story short, the building is shut nearly all week, and to use it for his charity he has had to go by the Kirk Session (their equivalent of a ward council), a facilities committee, an outreach committee and possibly another one. The bureaucracy is ridiculous and he says they don't
talk to each other. They almost have more committee members than congregants in that place and they're elderly in more ways than one. Despite this and their resistance to change, the Sunday School room (their equivalent to primary) is full of pictures of pansexual and transgender flags.

Most people didn't feel really threatened by covid. They were happy enough sat at home watching TV, ordering Pizza, and getting paid for doing nothing..
A full scale Russian attack, no power, no gas, no TV, severe nuclear threat etc, they'd flood into the churches, mark my words.

[Niemand]

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

We'll see. They didn't exactly flock to the churches because of the Covid thing or "cost of lockdowns", sorry "living", crisis. I think some will. And I hope they would.

There will be an element, especially of younger people who will not be able to bring themselves to it or will plunge themselves into Wicca and the New Age instead.

I was having yet another conversation about the Church of Scotland yesterday. (Which is a Presbyterian outfit for anyone reading this overseas.) I know someone who uses one of their churches for charity work but is not a member. I've seen firsthand that it's done some good. Anyway to cut a long story short, the building is shut nearly all week, and to use it for his charity he has had to go by the Kirk Session (their equivalent of a ward council), a facilities committee, an outreach committee and possibly another one. The bureaucracy is ridiculous and he says they don't
talk to each other. They almost have more committee members than congregants in that place and they're elderly in more ways than one. Despite this and their resistance to change, the Sunday School room (their equivalent to primary) is full of pictures of pansexual and transgender flags.

Most people didn't feel really threatened by covid. They were happy enough sat at home watching TV, ordering Pizza, and getting paid for doing nothing..
A full scale Russian attack, no power, no gas, no TV, severe nuclear threat etc, they'd flood into the churches, mark my words.

Some of them were. A lot of people did feel threatened and stressed by it, maybe not always for the reasons that the mainstream media would emphasise. (I was one of them, although I never ended up getting the shots.) I knew some people who drank themselves to death or stayed inside for six months. Voluntary imprisonment.

I don't have a TV or gas anymore and am not totally reliant on electricity. So I'm already ahead of the game.

Funnily enough last year when I read about scare stories, nuclear war didn't bother me. I thought if I am at least blasted away in seconds I'll be okay. (Some New Agers say nuclear detonations destroy your aetheric body... but that aside, I feel less afraid of death than the atheists are.)

[larsenb]

Christian "just war theory" can't be squared with modern revelation as I explain in the video.

Which Christian espoused just war theory?

...

I think it was St Augustine, but I may be wrong.

Yes, he was one of he formulators. The most extreme flavor says killing is wrong, period. Doesn't matter if you think killing in your self-defense or defense of anybody, is justified.

[solonan]

Canada, USA, England, France, Germany, Italy... are all Christian countries and yet we were killing each other during the second world war. This is truly sad.

Mike

Don't forget the Russians, Australians, New Zealanders etc.

The Russians are a good example, because despite Communist state repression and constant atheist propaganda many Russians did remain Orthodox, and Stalin was clever enough to realise that he had to rope the Russian Church in to the war effort...

Like I say above, I am sceptical of most of Europe or the "white Commonwealth" being Christian these days. Certainly not these parts. The only place I can still see as being particularly Christian round here would be some parts of the Western Isles, but even there... unlike his mother, Charles makes little pretence of being a Christian. The main churches are in trouble, including the Catholics because of the abuse scandals and Francis being a major Weffer.

If western Europe, including the UK, get into serious conflict with Russia/China, watch people suddenly get religion.
The churches will be full... standing room only.

For 3 weeks like the US did after 9/11

[Robin Hood]

In my lifetime I think the Falklands War was as close to being justified as it gets.