Is the Book of Mormon True?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.

Is the Book of Mormon the word of God?

Poll ended at January 29th, 2023, 7:51 am

100% True
39
87%
100% False
3
7%
Was true but has been altered to not be the word of God
3
7%
 
Total votes: 45
anonymous91
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Posts: 649

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by anonymous91 »

Niemand wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:09 am
anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am
Niemand wrote: January 28th, 2023, 2:13 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:51 pm

Do you take the same approach to the church? All or nothing?

And let me tell you, in the early history of the church, there were certainly many shades of gray.
This is a fair enough comment on the Book of Mormon. The edition we use in the church today is not the same as the one from 1830. Words and phrases have been altered.

There are also people who think that the Book of Mormon has spiritual value but does not describe literal history.
Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.

I've often thought that we are being lied to about the earth, and what we are told it "supposedly" is. Questions such as:

  • Why do old maps show land masses that no longer exist (or so we are led to believe)?
  • Why did Admiral Byrd talk about finding new land beyond Antarctica, then quickly recanted when he was a well-respected individual that had nothing to gain from such a tale?
  • Why do people on the "supposed" Space Station" use CGI, hidden wire harnesses, and other tricks to attempt to convince people that they are floating in space? If they are really in space, why the deception?
  • How in the world did NASA lose the data to travel back to the moon? One of the most important discoveries in the history of man, yet they were so incompetent in handling the sensitive data that they didn't even consider redundancy?
  • Why are people routinely stopped in uncharted waters by Military vessels, and told to turn around? Why are trips to Antarctica so regulated where people are allowed to explore? They claim it's for their safety, but is it really? What are they afraid that people will discover?
  • How is it possible that a spaceship made up of mostly aluminum and stainless steel was able to withstand upper atmospheric temperatures that "science" claims would completely melt both of these metals?


While pondering and researching these questions, I stumbled over something I found very interesting. It seems that someone that goes by the name "stergios" realized that the surface of the moon could actually be a map of the world we live on. He methodically mapped out the surface of the moon throughout all of the lunar cycles, and found something very fascinating, here is one of the images shown below:

Image

There are videos and articles that go into more depth. Here is just one of the videos that explain more about this map & theory:

From what I understand is that the moon we see is considered to be a plasma image, that was taken sometime in the distant past (similar to an x-ray picture) that some speculate could have been taken after God created the earth and that the moon bears witness of his creation (as above, so below). Of course, then there is also a lot of proof for a hollow earth with its own sun. In several apocalyptical accounts of the Adam & Eve story, for example, it seems that Adam & Eve were actually within Hollow Earth (where some believe the Garden of Eden is also located).

All of this to ask, what if the promised land that Lehi, Nephi, and family ended up discovering was actually land beyond what we know of? I believe that on the "moon map," this area is referred to as "Terra Vista", or possibly land within the hollow earth. That would explain why there are no known archaeological discoveries being discovered.

Things start clicking into place, and all of a sudden it becomes apparent why all of the subterfuge from TPTB. It answers the question of why we are led to believe that we live on a finite planet with limited resources, we are stuck in the sandbox, and are living the "Truman Show".

This explains why they had to convince us that the moon landing was real, and just a planet. What would happen if we discovered its true purpose? If we are led to believe it's just a boring moon rock floating in space, why think that there is something more to it?

It explains a lot of questions for me, and some of the puzzle pieces seem to fit. It would also explain where the lost tribes all of a sudden come from in the last days, I always wondered about that too. It sure would alter the way that future events could potentially play out; if you were to consider that there are lands that we aren't even aware of.

I'd imagine that for a lot of people, it will cause cognitive dissonance. Rather than consider it as a possibility, and attempt to question if it is even possible, many will choose to completely dismiss it altogether as some whacky conspiracy theory. I understand that it's not easy to have your worldview shatter.

I invite you to at least look into it, and see if there is anything that resonates with you. Share your thoughts.
Yes, I will share my thoughts. Most of that reply didn't have much to do with the Book of Mormon at all!!!

However if you do want to discuss Hollow Earth theory, there is a thread here:
viewtopic.php?t=2806

Also numerous ones discussing the Apollo missions, Antarctica etc.

I'll give you bonus points for originality. I have heard the BoM described as occuring in every corner of the Americas, East Africa, the British Isles, New Zealand and Malaysia, but never inside the Earth. The Hollow Earth explanation for the BoM is a new one on me!

It gives a new meaning to:
I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust. ( 2 Nephi 33:13)
Underground would count as "from the dust" I suppose.
😂 I love your comment.

The commentary I provided was to give people reading additional context for how I stumbled onto this theory, then tied it back to The Book of Mormon. It eventually comes around, but I've been told often that I am a bit long-winded, and drives one of my children absolutely nuts. She prefers simple, and straight to the point, whereas I tend to want to explain it from a big worldview. Different communication styles that constantly clash with each other. If I seem to be meandering you'll know why, and I completely understand if it drives someone else up a wall. 8-)

Completely out of the box thinking to be sure. Of course, it's very possible that I am completely off base too. Right now, it's more of a thought experiment of asking "What if...." and considering the possibilities.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Niemand »

anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:25 am
Niemand wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:09 am
anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am
Niemand wrote: January 28th, 2023, 2:13 am

This is a fair enough comment on the Book of Mormon. The edition we use in the church today is not the same as the one from 1830. Words and phrases have been altered.

There are also people who think that the Book of Mormon has spiritual value but does not describe literal history.
Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.

I've often thought that we are being lied to about the earth, and what we are told it "supposedly" is. Questions such as:

  • Why do old maps show land masses that no longer exist (or so we are led to believe)?
  • Why did Admiral Byrd talk about finding new land beyond Antarctica, then quickly recanted when he was a well-respected individual that had nothing to gain from such a tale?
  • Why do people on the "supposed" Space Station" use CGI, hidden wire harnesses, and other tricks to attempt to convince people that they are floating in space? If they are really in space, why the deception?
  • How in the world did NASA lose the data to travel back to the moon? One of the most important discoveries in the history of man, yet they were so incompetent in handling the sensitive data that they didn't even consider redundancy?
  • Why are people routinely stopped in uncharted waters by Military vessels, and told to turn around? Why are trips to Antarctica so regulated where people are allowed to explore? They claim it's for their safety, but is it really? What are they afraid that people will discover?
  • How is it possible that a spaceship made up of mostly aluminum and stainless steel was able to withstand upper atmospheric temperatures that "science" claims would completely melt both of these metals?


While pondering and researching these questions, I stumbled over something I found very interesting. It seems that someone that goes by the name "stergios" realized that the surface of the moon could actually be a map of the world we live on. He methodically mapped out the surface of the moon throughout all of the lunar cycles, and found something very fascinating, here is one of the images shown below:

Image

There are videos and articles that go into more depth. Here is just one of the videos that explain more about this map & theory:

From what I understand is that the moon we see is considered to be a plasma image, that was taken sometime in the distant past (similar to an x-ray picture) that some speculate could have been taken after God created the earth and that the moon bears witness of his creation (as above, so below). Of course, then there is also a lot of proof for a hollow earth with its own sun. In several apocalyptical accounts of the Adam & Eve story, for example, it seems that Adam & Eve were actually within Hollow Earth (where some believe the Garden of Eden is also located).

All of this to ask, what if the promised land that Lehi, Nephi, and family ended up discovering was actually land beyond what we know of? I believe that on the "moon map," this area is referred to as "Terra Vista", or possibly land within the hollow earth. That would explain why there are no known archaeological discoveries being discovered.

Things start clicking into place, and all of a sudden it becomes apparent why all of the subterfuge from TPTB. It answers the question of why we are led to believe that we live on a finite planet with limited resources, we are stuck in the sandbox, and are living the "Truman Show".

This explains why they had to convince us that the moon landing was real, and just a planet. What would happen if we discovered its true purpose? If we are led to believe it's just a boring moon rock floating in space, why think that there is something more to it?

It explains a lot of questions for me, and some of the puzzle pieces seem to fit. It would also explain where the lost tribes all of a sudden come from in the last days, I always wondered about that too. It sure would alter the way that future events could potentially play out; if you were to consider that there are lands that we aren't even aware of.

I'd imagine that for a lot of people, it will cause cognitive dissonance. Rather than consider it as a possibility, and attempt to question if it is even possible, many will choose to completely dismiss it altogether as some whacky conspiracy theory. I understand that it's not easy to have your worldview shatter.

I invite you to at least look into it, and see if there is anything that resonates with you. Share your thoughts.
Yes, I will share my thoughts. Most of that reply didn't have much to do with the Book of Mormon at all!!!

However if you do want to discuss Hollow Earth theory, there is a thread here:
viewtopic.php?t=2806

Also numerous ones discussing the Apollo missions, Antarctica etc.

I'll give you bonus points for originality. I have heard the BoM described as occuring in every corner of the Americas, East Africa, the British Isles, New Zealand and Malaysia, but never inside the Earth. The Hollow Earth explanation for the BoM is a new one on me!

It gives a new meaning to:
I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust. ( 2 Nephi 33:13)
Underground would count as "from the dust" I suppose.
😂 I love your comment.

The commentary I provided was to give people reading additional context for how I stumbled onto this theory, then tied it back to The Book of Mormon. It eventually comes around, but I've been told often that I am a bit long-winded, and drives one of my children absolutely nuts. She prefers simple, and straight to the point, whereas I tend to want to explain it from a big worldview. Different communication styles that constantly clash with each other. If I seem to be meandering you'll know why, and I completely understand if it drives someone else up a wall. 8-)

Completely out of the box thinking to be sure. Of course, it's very possible that I am completely off base too. Right now, it's more of a thought experiment of asking "What if...." and considering the possibilities.
You headed off into a number of directions with that post. Yes, there are threads on all those (some better than others). But Lehi in the Hollow Earth is a new one to me. (It's usually Enoch etc who are said to be down there.) I was going to say there is probably an interpretation of the Book of Mormon that heads off into Outer Space, but Battlestar Galactica got there first. (In a way.)

At least we haven't got as many locations as Atlantis... yet. The notorious "narrow neck of land" quotation means that every isthmus in this world has become a suspect!

I was really keeping it simple. It is clear that there are differences from the original in many current editions. That's one thing that we do have solid proof of. Anti-Mormons point it out continually.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:39 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:51 pm
gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:54 pm Rather binary approach here it either 100% true or 100% false. No shades of grey here, no sir.
Do you take the same approach to the church? All or nothing?

And let me tell you, in the early history of the church, there were certainly many shades of gray.
I don’t take the all or nothing approach to the church or to almost anything else.
Then why make the statement that you did about the BoM? Here’s the thing, I believe in the BoM, that it was a historical narrative of Lehi’s descendants, that it actually happened. So yes, it is “true” in that sense. But I study every doctrine in that book for accuracy. I don’t accept anything unless I receive a witness of the Holy Ghost. Christ taught me that and I believe that. I don’t hold the BoM as infallible. I mean, just on this forum we have many different perspectives on the doctrinal interpretations are.

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gkearney
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Posts: 5346

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by gkearney »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 28th, 2023, 5:50 am
gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:39 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 7:51 pm
gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:54 pm Rather binary approach here it either 100% true or 100% false. No shades of grey here, no sir.
Do you take the same approach to the church? All or nothing?

And let me tell you, in the early history of the church, there were certainly many shades of gray.
I don’t take the all or nothing approach to the church or to almost anything else.
Then why make the statement that you did about the BoM? Here’s the thing, I believe in the BoM, that it was a historical narrative of Lehi’s descendants, that it actually happened. So yes, it is “true” in that sense. But I study every doctrine in that book for accuracy. I don’t accept anything unless I receive a witness of the Holy Ghost. Christ taught me that and I believe that. I don’t hold the BoM as infallible. I mean, just on this forum we have many different perspectives on the doctrinal interpretations are.
Which is why I posted my original post, the poll provides only two choices yes or no and no room for a more nuanced view. The Book of Mormon itself states that it is not infallible.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Niemand »

gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 6:04 am Which is why I posted my original post, the poll provides only two choices yes or no and no room for a more nuanced view. The Book of Mormon itself states that it is not infallible.
We could go through a few of these:
1.) There are hints that the BoM is a Nephite record. In one verse, I forget which, the Lamanites give a slightly different version of the early narrative and feel aggrieved at how Nephi and the Nephites stole their birthright.
2.) The horses, elephants and all the other things that critics say shouldn't be there plus other supposed anachronisms. (Some of these like "adieu" are easily justified.)
3.) Conscious alterations to the text since the 1830 edition, and earlier ones. We do not have the same BoM as they did a century ago.
4.) Whether modern interpretations of the text by our leadership are all valid and/or if there are others which they omit entirely.
5.) Plagiarism accusations. Discussed many times in many places.
6.) The matter of the missing pages, sealed portion etc.
7.) Possible contradictions within the text itself.

Jashon
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Posts: 501

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Jashon »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:26 amIf someone knows about large alterations of actual doctrine presented in the Book of Mormon though, I want to know about it.
There are a few substantive changes that haven't been corrected to original readings, but not so many that it makes a big difference, although it is helpful to know about them, to avoid trying to justify an incorrect reading in your mind, or to others in a SS class.

Some examples:

1 Nephi 15:36: "Wherefore the wicked are separated from the righteous" [currently reads rejected].

2 Nephi 1:5: "Yea, the Lord hath consecrated this land unto me and to my children forever" [currently reads covenanted].

Alma 39:13: "but rather return unto them and acknowledge your faults and repair that wrong which ye have done" [repair is missing].

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I think the Nephites fell into similar false beliefs like we have in our day. Racism being one of them. Even though Nephi specifically teaches that all are free to come unto God, I get this nagging feeling that skin color became a big thing for them later on in the record. At minimum, they had a hard time accepting the teachings of anyone outside of the “keys and authority” hierarchy. Samuel the Lamanite is the perfect example. I believe it was a combination of both his skin color as well as his preaching and prophesying without “recognized” authority that had the people up in arms… and sure, calling them out for their wickedness was a major part of their anger as well.

But we get some insight into this further on in the record when Christ censures the leaders for not including all of Samuel’s prophecies in their records. I think even the righteous Nephites had varying degrees of pride based on skin color and leadership position.

In the Nemenhah Record, Samuel clearly points out that the color of his skin was one of the reasons they shunned him. We also learn a great deal about Ammonite tradition and how the Nephites didn’t worship with them, there was actually a division between them. The Nephites were more solemn in their manner of worship, while the Ammonites were far more exuberant and loud, similar to a Southern Baptist revival.

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nightlight
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by nightlight »

gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:30 am
nightlight wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:54 pm
gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:54 pm Rather binary approach here it either 100% true or 100% false. No shades of grey here, no sir.
Okay....let's be real

Do you think a man named Lehi really cross the ocean with his family to land in the Americas?

Yes or no?
I think it very likely that the fundamental story line is true. That someone that the Book of Mormon identifies as Lehi did cross the ocean with his family at about that time.

However I am unwilling to bank on all the details of that story or that Lehi was somehow unique in taking such a journey.

Put another way I believe in what the Book of Mormon and other scriptures teach us as true but I do not have a testimony of the historiography of scripture.
Lol the BoM is a historiography book

So you think it's an allegory

You think someone crossed the ocean... but likely not Jewish man named Lehi and his family?

Do you believe Joseph Smith really got golden plates from an Angel?

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gkearney
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Posts: 5346

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by gkearney »

nightlight wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:20 am
gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:30 am
nightlight wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:54 pm
gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:54 pm Rather binary approach here it either 100% true or 100% false. No shades of grey here, no sir.
Okay....let's be real

Do you think a man named Lehi really cross the ocean with his family to land in the Americas?

Yes or no?
I think it very likely that the fundamental story line is true. That someone that the Book of Mormon identifies as Lehi did cross the ocean with his family at about that time.

However I am unwilling to bank on all the details of that story or that Lehi was somehow unique in taking such a journey.

Put another way I believe in what the Book of Mormon and other scriptures teach us as true but I do not have a testimony of the historiography of scripture.
Lol the BoM is a historiography book

So you think it's an allegory

You think someone crossed the ocean... but likely not Jewish man named Lehi and his family?

Do you believe Joseph Smith really got golden plates from an Angel?
Here are some thoughts on the Book of Mormon and my approach to it I wrote out a number of years ago.

Thoughts on the Book of Mormon
In order to provide full disclosure I am a believer in the Book of Mormon. I come from a family tradition with in both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and the Community of Christ (RLDS).

The Book of Mormon is arguably the most important religious text to originate in America. This is true regardless of your view of it be that view positive or negative. It is the foundational document of the most successful American religious movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. As such it is deserving of consideration, even by non-believers, as it tells us much about who we are as Americans, where we have been and the values that shaped us.

The Book of Mormon did not spring forth out of a cultural vacuum. Rather it seems to have come to us as a mix of Joseph Smith's personal spiritual expression, revelation from deity, and the culture of the times which gave it voice. In the end, like the Holy Bible or the Holy Qur'an before it, the Book of Mormon is a text that attempts, and for millions of it believers, succeeds, in imparting something of God's will to man by means of a set of allegorical stories, moral injunctions and the applications of these by its modern readers. My Latter-day Saint (Mormon) friends and family are fond of saying that the Book of Mormon was written for us today. In this they are correct I believe. Be it viewed as a ancient text, a book of nineteenth century authorship or, as is my view, a combination of both sources.

In the end I would suggest it matters little if the details of the narrative are historically accurate. Writing accurate history was never the function of scripture. Was Jonah really swallowed by a whale? Was the earth really covered with water? Did Alma really visit the Zoramites? The answer to these questions is that their historic accuracy is not relevant to the values these accounts give us. What matters, and the reason these and other scriptural accounts have come down to us, is what we, the reader, can take away to better ourselves from them.

The Book of Mormon is a distinctively American book. While it speaks to peoples of many nations it is the Americans, used here in the general geographic sense, where it finds its greatest resonance. It tells a cautionary tale of the fundamental weakness found in the American character, pride and the dangers that it presents to us as Christian believers. When
Alma confronts the Zoromites1 many members of both the LDS (Mormon) Church and the Community of Christ (RLDS) faith fail to understand that it is we, the modern readers, who are the prideful Zoromites.

The Book of Mormon can be a long hard read at times. It repeats itself often to the point of loosing the message it seeks to convey. Had Joseph Smith been nothing more than a simple conman he would not have employed such obvious techniques as copying whole sections of the Bible, the one book most frontier Americans would have possessed and been familiar with, into its pages. Joseph Smith likely did not even understand the American frontier cultural elements that found there way into the text. Few people at the time of writing can see in their work the influences of the times in which they work. For that we must have the advantage of time.

No matter its source, and I feel that it has a mixed origins coloured by both the spiritual experiences of Joseph Smith as well as the time and place of its creation, the Book of Mormon does have a message for us today. That we are entitled to a direct communication from God. That God is still interested in the affairs of men. That from time to time a work of scripture crafted by men but possessing truth that transcends the text, no matter its source, will appear among us. Joseph Smith, Jr., the farm boy, the frontiersman, the scoundrel, the prophet gave us such a book and in doing showed how each of us can in turn be a prophetic people2 ourselves.

Is the Book of Mormon perfect? No, no book is. Was Joseph Smith perfect? Far from it. A reading of the Bible will confirm that the prophets never are so. It is through such imperfections that God still speaks and that is, in my opinion the central message of the Book of Mormon and the religious movement that sprung from its pages. That despite our pride, our sometimes violent and destructive nature despite our inclinations to mark others as somehow less than ourselves we can and should rise above all of that.

Did Joseph author the Book of Mormon? Some of it he clearly did. Did God inspire the Book of Mormon? I believe he did. Were there peoples at sometime in the past who had some of the events in it pages happen to them? That is a question for each reader to decide. All of that is important but also not important. In the end if the Book of Mormon has helped some, such as myself, and many millions of others, come to a better place in their lives and with their God then the origins, the writing, the grammar and the plot or the historiography of the book really isn't relevant.

The origins of the Book of Mormon have, and will be, debated here and elsewhere. Such debates however miss the point of the text. For when we speak with pride when we go to war
without cause, or when we stand upon our own personal Rameumptom3 then we fail to head the words of the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is good, it's bad, it hard to read, it's scripture to millions, many millions more consider it to be fiction. In other words, like the people it speaks to, it is complex. At once both boring and inspiring. It is worth reading, take from it what you will but do not judge it for what it is not. It is not history, geography or any other such text. It is in the end a message from the past, be that past recent or ancient. A caution against pride and the weakness we find within each of us and the possibilities we all have as well.

I would suggest reading the Book of Mormon if for no other reason than to read one of the most, if not the most important work of American religious writing. Its story speaks to the American experience, where we have been as a people, where we are today and where we are going. It serves as both a warning and an invitation to be better than we are as individuals and collectively. The source of that message is not as important as the message itself.

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nightlight
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Posts: 8407

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by nightlight »

gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:15 pm
nightlight wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:20 am
gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:30 am
nightlight wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:54 pm

Okay....let's be real

Do you think a man named Lehi really cross the ocean with his family to land in the Americas?

Yes or no?
I think it very likely that the fundamental story line is true. That someone that the Book of Mormon identifies as Lehi did cross the ocean with his family at about that time.

However I am unwilling to bank on all the details of that story or that Lehi was somehow unique in taking such a journey.

Put another way I believe in what the Book of Mormon and other scriptures teach us as true but I do not have a testimony of the historiography of scripture.
Lol the BoM is a historiography book

So you think it's an allegory

You think someone crossed the ocean... but likely not Jewish man named Lehi and his family?

Do you believe Joseph Smith really got golden plates from an Angel?
Here are some thoughts on the Book of Mormon and my approach to it I wrote out a number of years ago.

Thoughts on the Book of Mormon
In order to provide full disclosure I am a believer in the Book of Mormon. I come from a family tradition with in both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and the Community of Christ (RLDS).

The Book of Mormon is arguably the most important religious text to originate in America. This is true regardless of your view of it be that view positive or negative. It is the foundational document of the most successful American religious movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. As such it is deserving of consideration, even by non-believers, as it tells us much about who we are as Americans, where we have been and the values that shaped us.

The Book of Mormon did not spring forth out of a cultural vacuum. Rather it seems to have come to us as a mix of Joseph Smith's personal spiritual expression, revelation from deity, and the culture of the times which gave it voice. In the end, like the Holy Bible or the Holy Qur'an before it, the Book of Mormon is a text that attempts, and for millions of it believers, succeeds, in imparting something of God's will to man by means of a set of allegorical stories, moral injunctions and the applications of these by its modern readers. My Latter-day Saint (Mormon) friends and family are fond of saying that the Book of Mormon was written for us today. In this they are correct I believe. Be it viewed as a ancient text, a book of nineteenth century authorship or, as is my view, a combination of both sources.

In the end I would suggest it matters little if the details of the narrative are historically accurate. Writing accurate history was never the function of scripture. Was Jonah really swallowed by a whale? Was the earth really covered with water? Did Alma really visit the Zoramites? The answer to these questions is that their historic accuracy is not relevant to the values these accounts give us. What matters, and the reason these and other scriptural accounts have come down to us, is what we, the reader, can take away to better ourselves from them.

The Book of Mormon is a distinctively American book. While it speaks to peoples of many nations it is the Americans, used here in the general geographic sense, where it finds its greatest resonance. It tells a cautionary tale of the fundamental weakness found in the American character, pride and the dangers that it presents to us as Christian believers. When
Alma confronts the Zoromites1 many members of both the LDS (Mormon) Church and the Community of Christ (RLDS) faith fail to understand that it is we, the modern readers, who are the prideful Zoromites.

The Book of Mormon can be a long hard read at times. It repeats itself often to the point of loosing the message it seeks to convey. Had Joseph Smith been nothing more than a simple conman he would not have employed such obvious techniques as copying whole sections of the Bible, the one book most frontier Americans would have possessed and been familiar with, into its pages. Joseph Smith likely did not even understand the American frontier cultural elements that found there way into the text. Few people at the time of writing can see in their work the influences of the times in which they work. For that we must have the advantage of time.

No matter its source, and I feel that it has a mixed origins coloured by both the spiritual experiences of Joseph Smith as well as the time and place of its creation, the Book of Mormon does have a message for us today. That we are entitled to a direct communication from God. That God is still interested in the affairs of men. That from time to time a work of scripture crafted by men but possessing truth that transcends the text, no matter its source, will appear among us. Joseph Smith, Jr., the farm boy, the frontiersman, the scoundrel, the prophet gave us such a book and in doing showed how each of us can in turn be a prophetic people2 ourselves.

Is the Book of Mormon perfect? No, no book is. Was Joseph Smith perfect? Far from it. A reading of the Bible will confirm that the prophets never are so. It is through such imperfections that God still speaks and that is, in my opinion the central message of the Book of Mormon and the religious movement that sprung from its pages. That despite our pride, our sometimes violent and destructive nature despite our inclinations to mark others as somehow less than ourselves we can and should rise above all of that.

Did Joseph author the Book of Mormon? Some of it he clearly did. Did God inspire the Book of Mormon? I believe he did. Were there peoples at sometime in the past who had some of the events in it pages happen to them? That is a question for each reader to decide. All of that is important but also not important. In the end if the Book of Mormon has helped some, such as myself, and many millions of others, come to a better place in their lives and with their God then the origins, the writing, the grammar and the plot or the historiography of the book really isn't relevant.

The origins of the Book of Mormon have, and will be, debated here and elsewhere. Such debates however miss the point of the text. For when we speak with pride when we go to war
without cause, or when we stand upon our own personal Rameumptom3 then we fail to head the words of the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is good, it's bad, it hard to read, it's scripture to millions, many millions more consider it to be fiction. In other words, like the people it speaks to, it is complex. At once both boring and inspiring. It is worth reading, take from it what you will but do not judge it for what it is not. It is not history, geography or any other such text. It is in the end a message from the past, be that past recent or ancient. A caution against pride and the weakness we find within each of us and the possibilities we all have as well.

I would suggest reading the Book of Mormon if for no other reason than to read one of the most, if not the most important work of American religious writing. Its story speaks to the American experience, where we have been as a people, where we are today and where we are going. It serves as both a warning and an invitation to be better than we are as individuals and collectively. The source of that message is not as important as the message itself.

Do you believe Jesus actually did those miracles the bible claims... do you believe he actually died on the cross and rose three days later?

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by simpleton »

gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:15 pm
nightlight wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:20 am
gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:30 am
nightlight wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:54 pm

Okay....let's be real

Do you think a man named Lehi really cross the ocean with his family to land in the Americas?

Yes or no?
I think it very likely that the fundamental story line is true. That someone that the Book of Mormon identifies as Lehi did cross the ocean with his family at about that time.

However I am unwilling to bank on all the details of that story or that Lehi was somehow unique in taking such a journey.

Put another way I believe in what the Book of Mormon and other scriptures teach us as true but I do not have a testimony of the historiography of scripture.
Lol the BoM is a historiography book

So you think it's an allegory

You think someone crossed the ocean... but likely not Jewish man named Lehi and his family?

Do you believe Joseph Smith really got golden plates from an Angel?
Here are some thoughts on the Book of Mormon and my approach to it I wrote out a number of years ago.

Thoughts on the Book of Mormon
In order to provide full disclosure I am a believer in the Book of Mormon. I come from a family tradition with in both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and the Community of Christ (RLDS).

The Book of Mormon is arguably the most important religious text to originate in America. This is true regardless of your view of it be that view positive or negative. It is the foundational document of the most successful American religious movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. As such it is deserving of consideration, even by non-believers, as it tells us much about who we are as Americans, where we have been and the values that shaped us.

The Book of Mormon did not spring forth out of a cultural vacuum. Rather it seems to have come to us as a mix of Joseph Smith's personal spiritual expression, revelation from deity, and the culture of the times which gave it voice. In the end, like the Holy Bible or the Holy Qur'an before it, the Book of Mormon is a text that attempts, and for millions of it believers, succeeds, in imparting something of God's will to man by means of a set of allegorical stories, moral injunctions and the applications of these by its modern readers. My Latter-day Saint (Mormon) friends and family are fond of saying that the Book of Mormon was written for us today. In this they are correct I believe. Be it viewed as a ancient text, a book of nineteenth century authorship or, as is my view, a combination of both sources.

In the end I would suggest it matters little if the details of the narrative are historically accurate. Writing accurate history was never the function of scripture. Was Jonah really swallowed by a whale? Was the earth really covered with water? Did Alma really visit the Zoramites? The answer to these questions is that their historic accuracy is not relevant to the values these accounts give us. What matters, and the reason these and other scriptural accounts have come down to us, is what we, the reader, can take away to better ourselves from them.

The Book of Mormon is a distinctively American book. While it speaks to peoples of many nations it is the Americans, used here in the general geographic sense, where it finds its greatest resonance. It tells a cautionary tale of the fundamental weakness found in the American character, pride and the dangers that it presents to us as Christian believers. When
Alma confronts the Zoromites1 many members of both the LDS (Mormon) Church and the Community of Christ (RLDS) faith fail to understand that it is we, the modern readers, who are the prideful Zoromites.

The Book of Mormon can be a long hard read at times. It repeats itself often to the point of loosing the message it seeks to convey. Had Joseph Smith been nothing more than a simple conman he would not have employed such obvious techniques as copying whole sections of the Bible, the one book most frontier Americans would have possessed and been familiar with, into its pages. Joseph Smith likely did not even understand the American frontier cultural elements that found there way into the text. Few people at the time of writing can see in their work the influences of the times in which they work. For that we must have the advantage of time.

No matter its source, and I feel that it has a mixed origins coloured by both the spiritual experiences of Joseph Smith as well as the time and place of its creation, the Book of Mormon does have a message for us today. That we are entitled to a direct communication from God. That God is still interested in the affairs of men. That from time to time a work of scripture crafted by men but possessing truth that transcends the text, no matter its source, will appear among us. Joseph Smith, Jr., the farm boy, the frontiersman, the scoundrel, the prophet gave us such a book and in doing showed how each of us can in turn be a prophetic people2 ourselves.

Is the Book of Mormon perfect? No, no book is. Was Joseph Smith perfect? Far from it. A reading of the Bible will confirm that the prophets never are so. It is through such imperfections that God still speaks and that is, in my opinion the central message of the Book of Mormon and the religious movement that sprung from its pages. That despite our pride, our sometimes violent and destructive nature despite our inclinations to mark others as somehow less than ourselves we can and should rise above all of that.

Did Joseph author the Book of Mormon? Some of it he clearly did. Did God inspire the Book of Mormon? I believe he did. Were there peoples at sometime in the past who had some of the events in it pages happen to them? That is a question for each reader to decide. All of that is important but also not important. In the end if the Book of Mormon has helped some, such as myself, and many millions of others, come to a better place in their lives and with their God then the origins, the writing, the grammar and the plot or the historiography of the book really isn't relevant.

The origins of the Book of Mormon have, and will be, debated here and elsewhere. Such debates however miss the point of the text. For when we speak with pride when we go to war
without cause, or when we stand upon our own personal Rameumptom3 then we fail to head the words of the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is good, it's bad, it hard to read, it's scripture to millions, many millions more consider it to be fiction. In other words, like the people it speaks to, it is complex. At once both boring and inspiring. It is worth reading, take from it what you will but do not judge it for what it is not. It is not history, geography or any other such text. It is in the end a message from the past, be that past recent or ancient. A caution against pride and the weakness we find within each of us and the possibilities we all have as well.

I would suggest reading the Book of Mormon if for no other reason than to read one of the most, if not the most important work of American religious writing. Its story speaks to the American experience, where we have been as a people, where we are today and where we are going. It serves as both a warning and an invitation to be better than we are as individuals and collectively. The source of that message is not as important as the message itself.
Having read the BoM many times throughout the years, having also read the history of the church, early days, Joseph Smiths history, many many early lds journals, I would have to say, IMO, that your above writing is incorrect. I don't think Joseph Smith inserted even one single thing of his own opinion or view in that book.
It is a message from the past, not from Joseph, although, he was chosen to be the "Seer" to translate it through the power of God.
And I am just simple enough to believe his story of the origins of the book and his experiences with Moroni, etc.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Cruiserdude »

simpleton wrote: January 28th, 2023, 1:38 pm
gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:15 pm
nightlight wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:20 am
gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:30 am

I think it very likely that the fundamental story line is true. That someone that the Book of Mormon identifies as Lehi did cross the ocean with his family at about that time.

However I am unwilling to bank on all the details of that story or that Lehi was somehow unique in taking such a journey.

Put another way I believe in what the Book of Mormon and other scriptures teach us as true but I do not have a testimony of the historiography of scripture.
Lol the BoM is a historiography book

So you think it's an allegory

You think someone crossed the ocean... but likely not Jewish man named Lehi and his family?

Do you believe Joseph Smith really got golden plates from an Angel?
Here are some thoughts on the Book of Mormon and my approach to it I wrote out a number of years ago.

Thoughts on the Book of Mormon
In order to provide full disclosure I am a believer in the Book of Mormon. I come from a family tradition with in both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and the Community of Christ (RLDS).

The Book of Mormon is arguably the most important religious text to originate in America. This is true regardless of your view of it be that view positive or negative. It is the foundational document of the most successful American religious movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. As such it is deserving of consideration, even by non-believers, as it tells us much about who we are as Americans, where we have been and the values that shaped us.

The Book of Mormon did not spring forth out of a cultural vacuum. Rather it seems to have come to us as a mix of Joseph Smith's personal spiritual expression, revelation from deity, and the culture of the times which gave it voice. In the end, like the Holy Bible or the Holy Qur'an before it, the Book of Mormon is a text that attempts, and for millions of it believers, succeeds, in imparting something of God's will to man by means of a set of allegorical stories, moral injunctions and the applications of these by its modern readers. My Latter-day Saint (Mormon) friends and family are fond of saying that the Book of Mormon was written for us today. In this they are correct I believe. Be it viewed as a ancient text, a book of nineteenth century authorship or, as is my view, a combination of both sources.

In the end I would suggest it matters little if the details of the narrative are historically accurate. Writing accurate history was never the function of scripture. Was Jonah really swallowed by a whale? Was the earth really covered with water? Did Alma really visit the Zoramites? The answer to these questions is that their historic accuracy is not relevant to the values these accounts give us. What matters, and the reason these and other scriptural accounts have come down to us, is what we, the reader, can take away to better ourselves from them.

The Book of Mormon is a distinctively American book. While it speaks to peoples of many nations it is the Americans, used here in the general geographic sense, where it finds its greatest resonance. It tells a cautionary tale of the fundamental weakness found in the American character, pride and the dangers that it presents to us as Christian believers. When
Alma confronts the Zoromites1 many members of both the LDS (Mormon) Church and the Community of Christ (RLDS) faith fail to understand that it is we, the modern readers, who are the prideful Zoromites.

The Book of Mormon can be a long hard read at times. It repeats itself often to the point of loosing the message it seeks to convey. Had Joseph Smith been nothing more than a simple conman he would not have employed such obvious techniques as copying whole sections of the Bible, the one book most frontier Americans would have possessed and been familiar with, into its pages. Joseph Smith likely did not even understand the American frontier cultural elements that found there way into the text. Few people at the time of writing can see in their work the influences of the times in which they work. For that we must have the advantage of time.

No matter its source, and I feel that it has a mixed origins coloured by both the spiritual experiences of Joseph Smith as well as the time and place of its creation, the Book of Mormon does have a message for us today. That we are entitled to a direct communication from God. That God is still interested in the affairs of men. That from time to time a work of scripture crafted by men but possessing truth that transcends the text, no matter its source, will appear among us. Joseph Smith, Jr., the farm boy, the frontiersman, the scoundrel, the prophet gave us such a book and in doing showed how each of us can in turn be a prophetic people2 ourselves.

Is the Book of Mormon perfect? No, no book is. Was Joseph Smith perfect? Far from it. A reading of the Bible will confirm that the prophets never are so. It is through such imperfections that God still speaks and that is, in my opinion the central message of the Book of Mormon and the religious movement that sprung from its pages. That despite our pride, our sometimes violent and destructive nature despite our inclinations to mark others as somehow less than ourselves we can and should rise above all of that.

Did Joseph author the Book of Mormon? Some of it he clearly did. Did God inspire the Book of Mormon? I believe he did. Were there peoples at sometime in the past who had some of the events in it pages happen to them? That is a question for each reader to decide. All of that is important but also not important. In the end if the Book of Mormon has helped some, such as myself, and many millions of others, come to a better place in their lives and with their God then the origins, the writing, the grammar and the plot or the historiography of the book really isn't relevant.

The origins of the Book of Mormon have, and will be, debated here and elsewhere. Such debates however miss the point of the text. For when we speak with pride when we go to war
without cause, or when we stand upon our own personal Rameumptom3 then we fail to head the words of the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is good, it's bad, it hard to read, it's scripture to millions, many millions more consider it to be fiction. In other words, like the people it speaks to, it is complex. At once both boring and inspiring. It is worth reading, take from it what you will but do not judge it for what it is not. It is not history, geography or any other such text. It is in the end a message from the past, be that past recent or ancient. A caution against pride and the weakness we find within each of us and the possibilities we all have as well.

I would suggest reading the Book of Mormon if for no other reason than to read one of the most, if not the most important work of American religious writing. Its story speaks to the American experience, where we have been as a people, where we are today and where we are going. It serves as both a warning and an invitation to be better than we are as individuals and collectively. The source of that message is not as important as the message itself.
Having read the BoM many times throughout the years, having also read the history of the church, early days, Joseph Smiths history, many many early lds journals, I would have to say, IMO, that your above writing is incorrect. I don't think Joseph Smith inserted even one single thing of his own opinion or view in that book.
It is a message from the past, not from Joseph, although, he was chosen to be the "Seer" to translate it through the power of God.
And I am just simple enough to believe his story of the origins of the book and his experiences with Moroni, etc.
Kinda off topic, but I respect and value your insights I've gleaned from this forum....
I've changed a lot of my lifestyle over last 5 or 6 years to intentionally be MUCH more simple, as the world views things.... And nobody would believe the blessing it has been for me unless they have experienced it for themselves. It's undeniable the clarity the Lord allowed my mind by pulling away from it all. So much more peace and love outside of Babylon.
(your final line that included 'simple enough' made me think of my last few years of 'simplicity' and how joyful they've been, it's undeniable and I'd encourage it for all folks)

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Yes ❗️

Of course it is. :!:

What are you thinking. :?:

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by larsenb »

Jashon wrote: January 28th, 2023, 6:20 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:26 amIf someone knows about large alterations of actual doctrine presented in the Book of Mormon though, I want to know about it.
There are a few substantive changes that haven't been corrected to original readings, but not so many that it makes a big difference, although it is helpful to know about them, to avoid trying to justify an incorrect reading in your mind, or to others in a SS class.

Some examples:

1 Nephi 15:36: "Wherefore the wicked are separated from the righteous" [currently reads rejected].

2 Nephi 1:5: "Yea, the Lord hath consecrated this land unto me and to my children forever" [currently reads covenanted].

Alma 39:13: "but rather return unto them and acknowledge your faults and repair that wrong which ye have done" [repair is missing].
Interesting. Checked a copy of the alleged "Exact scan taken from original 1830 copy" of the Book of Mormon, which we brought at the original site of the Grandin, press, and found that the first two verses you cite are the same as the current printing of the book.

However, the Alma 39:13 verse shows: "but rather return unto them and acknowledge your faults, and retain that wrong which ye have done" So obviously, "retain" would have been wrong and needed to be changed. But instead they dropped it.

Perhaps your text is an exact copy taken from the actual manuscript . . . if it still exists . . . at least portions of it.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

CaptainM wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:51 am Is God communicating with the world through the Book of Mormon?
Absolutely.❗️

Valo
captain of 100
Posts: 974

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Valo »

It is true. The message of the Book of Mormon is from God and it is Good.

I so testify in the name of the Son Christ

a...o

Jashon
captain of 100
Posts: 501

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Jashon »

larsenb wrote: January 28th, 2023, 1:59 pm
Jashon wrote: January 28th, 2023, 6:20 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:26 amIf someone knows about large alterations of actual doctrine presented in the Book of Mormon though, I want to know about it.
There are a few substantive changes that haven't been corrected to original readings, but not so many that it makes a big difference, although it is helpful to know about them, to avoid trying to justify an incorrect reading in your mind, or to others in a SS class.

Some examples:

1 Nephi 15:36: "Wherefore the wicked are separated from the righteous" [currently reads rejected].

2 Nephi 1:5: "Yea, the Lord hath consecrated this land unto me and to my children forever" [currently reads covenanted].

Alma 39:13: "but rather return unto them and acknowledge your faults and repair that wrong which ye have done" [repair is missing].
Interesting. Checked a copy of the alleged "Exact scan taken from original 1830 copy" of the Book of Mormon, which we brought at the original site of the Grandin, press, and found that the first two verses you cite are the same as the current printing of the book.

However, the Alma 39:13 verse shows: "but rather return unto them and acknowledge your faults, and retain that wrong which ye have done" So obviously, "retain" would have been wrong and needed to be changed. But instead they dropped it.

Perhaps your text is an exact copy taken from the actual manuscript . . . if it still exists . . . at least portions of it.
Talmage, I think, deleted retain in Alma 39. It was an ink drop that obscured the orig. reading.

Here's another one that should have been changed by now:

1 Nephi 12:18: "yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God and Jesus Christ" [currently reads word].

Dave62
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Posts: 1323
Location: Rural Australia

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Dave62 »

Yes, the BoM is a true and accurate book. I know that Joseph did NOT compose it. I am a published writer. I'm kind of smart. I have a degree in linguistics and Japanese and I read lots of books and know stuff. I have a post grad in education. Writing is bloody hard and takes a lot of time, effort and thought, and months and months of editing. If Emma was telling the truth about how Joseph translated the record, and I have no reason to believe why she would be lying, then there are only four possibilities for the origin of the book.

1. Joseph stole, copied or plagiarised similar works (I'm still waiting to hear about anything that comes up to standard)
2. Joseph was a Time Lord with his own TARDIS. (A touch unlikely)
3. Joseph was inspired by Satan.
4. Joseph was inspired by God.

Your choice.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by TheDuke »

Principles are surely true. History and facts, number killed in battles, seems unlikely, but doesn't change the principles. I received a testimony of the BoM, but never any of the specific details of history, only doctrine and principles.

Wendyw
captain of 10
Posts: 21

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Wendyw »

I know the Book of Mormon is true because how it affects my daily life when I read it. I have never encountered anything like the inspiration and peace I receive when I read it. Even if it is just a few verses a day.
This is truly inspired by God, and I love him for it!

solonan
captain of 100
Posts: 297

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by solonan »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:58 pm Yes, but I disagree with what we were taught about the storyline between Alma and Corianton. The doctrine Alma teaches is correct, but Corianton didn’t sleep with a harlot.
Ah you read the record of the nemenhah!

Dave62
destroyer of hopes & dreams
Posts: 1323
Location: Rural Australia

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Dave62 »

And the most ludicrous notion is that of the 'limited geography' model. 'Well, it only happened in the Yucatan Peninsular' or 'It only happened right next to the Great Lakes'. Give me strength! The Nephites would have said, "Hold my beer! Give me soil and water, 200 years of peace and we will build something to rival Rome!"

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nightlight
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by nightlight »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:36 pm Principles are surely true. History and facts, number killed in battles, seems unlikely, but doesn't change the principles. I received a testimony of the BoM, but never any of the specific details of history, only doctrine and principles.
What other facts besides the number of people killed do you think is unlikely ?

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Niemand
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Niemand »

TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:36 pm Principles are surely true. History and facts, number killed in battles, seems unlikely, but doesn't change the principles. I received a testimony of the BoM, but never any of the specific details of history, only doctrine and principles.
The spiritual teaching is more important than the historical foundations. I can read a history of Napoleon and his story would be well documented, but not edifying. When I read the story of Nephi, I am edified but I can't prove a lot of it. Historicity is not as relevant to the matter as people think.

I'm not saying here I think the Book of Mormon is ahistorical, I'm saying that its historical context is less important to me than how it fits in my life.

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Elizabeth
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Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Elizabeth »

Seems to be.

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