Is the Book of Mormon True?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.

Is the Book of Mormon the word of God?

Poll ended at January 29th, 2023, 7:51 am

100% True
39
87%
100% False
3
7%
Was true but has been altered to not be the word of God
3
7%
 
Total votes: 45
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nightlight
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by nightlight »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:28 am
TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:36 pm Principles are surely true. History and facts, number killed in battles, seems unlikely, but doesn't change the principles. I received a testimony of the BoM, but never any of the specific details of history, only doctrine and principles.
The spiritual teaching is more important than the historical foundations. I can read a history of Napoleon and his story would be well documented, but not edifying. When I read the story of Nephi, I am edified but I can't prove a lot of it. Historicity is not as relevant to the matter as people think.

I'm not saying here I think the Book of Mormon is ahistorical, I'm saying that its historical context is less important to me than how it fits in my life.
It's historical foundations are fundamental to its message.

It's like saying the four gospels message is separate from its historical claims.

"It's not important that He really was born from a literal virgin, that he literally gave up his life and then literally conquered the grave"

"It not important that God took a Jew across the ocean and established this land as THE Promised Land....a land were He lead His other sheep with a promise that their children would forge Zion and remember what God has done for their fathers"

If there was no Lehi and Nephi.....than the Book of Mormon is not a TESTAMENT of Jesus Christ. It is a glorified Lord Of The Rings fantasy novel

The modern man doubts the BoM claims because they have no concrete evidence of the civilization that supposedly existed here.
I find this strange.....as if God couldn't cover all traces of people He wiped from His country.
For the modern man to believe that the BoM was historically legitimate....it would invalidate the world from having to have faith in Jesus Christ.

"We found proof of these people called Nephites!!!! And you know what? They spoke of a man, WORD FOR WORD, who would be born to virgin and would go on to save the world from sin and death.... 🤯 I guess those Christians are on to something......"

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Niemand
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Niemand »

nightlight wrote: February 1st, 2023, 8:54 am It's historical foundations are fundamental to its message.

It's like saying the four gospels message is separate from its historical claims.
You've missed my point entirely. I said I could read a book on Napoleon where all the historical details were backed up elsewhere but it would have no spiritual benefit to me. I read books on church history from the last fifty years which are well documented and they don't always do much for me either.

On some levels the historical background of the gospels isn't the main thing, because most Christians have never had the remotest idea of what life was like the Eastern Roman Empire. In the Middle Ages most European Christians didn't even really know what Romans looked like and you can see that in their artwork because they're drawn just like mediaeval Europeans.

Believers in the Book of Mormon don't have a clue what a Nephite shoe looked like or what Lamanite ships looked like because most of that detail isn't in there.

Historical detail is useful for fleshing things out.– and I've written on that – and providing context sometimes but it is not always the central message. When Jesus tells us to love our neighbours, the picture of a first century person should not be the first thing coming to mind because that message is for our benefit right now.

As I've said elsewhere most of Jesus' life is missing. We know more about Paul. Between the ages of 12 & 30, we don't hear a thing about Jesus. In fact, we don't hear much about his childhood between infancy and 12 either. I actually wish we did, but we don't.

larsenb
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by larsenb »

Dave62 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:45 pm And the most ludicrous notion is that of the 'limited geography' model. 'Well, it only happened in the Yucatan Peninsular' or 'It only happened right next to the Great Lakes'. Give me strength! The Nephites would have said, "Hold my beer! Give me soil and water, 200 years of peace and we will build something to rival Rome!"
A curious statement . . . along with the one about Rome'

What's your view about where the Book of Morman happened, and the possible locales over what period of time?

larsenb
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by larsenb »

Niemand wrote: January 29th, 2023, 5:28 am
TheDuke wrote: January 28th, 2023, 9:36 pm Principles are surely true. History and facts, number killed in battles, seems unlikely, but doesn't change the principles. I received a testimony of the BoM, but never any of the specific details of history, only doctrine and principles.
The spiritual teaching is more important than the historical foundations. I can read a history of Napoleon and his story would be well documented, but not edifying. When I read the story of Nephi, I am edified but I can't prove a lot of it. Historicity is not as relevant to the matter as people think.

I'm not saying here I think the Book of Mormon is ahistorical, I'm saying that its historical context is less important to me than how it fits in my life.
But if the historical narrative is not true or grossly exaggerated/distorted, you would be putting your faith in something fatally flawed because it utilizes lies. Not my cup of tea.

My belief in the historical aspect of it (despite some of the things that don't seem to fit our modern understandings), is vastly strengthened by the books display of masterful discourses and deep spiritual acumen, etc.

If we could somehow absolutely prove that the history of it is not true, the Book of Mormon would just become another rather amazing exposition of supposed spiritual truth someone concocted, but would recede way into the background in commanding my attention or enthusiasm.

Dave62
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Dave62 »

larsenb wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:31 pm
Dave62 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 10:45 pm And the most ludicrous notion is that of the 'limited geography' model. 'Well, it only happened in the Yucatan Peninsular' or 'It only happened right next to the Great Lakes'. Give me strength! The Nephites would have said, "Hold my beer! Give me soil and water, 200 years of peace and we will build something to rival Rome!"
A curious statement . . . along with the one about Rome'

What's your view about where the Book of Morman happened, and the possible locales over what period of time?
Thanks for the question, Larsen. I'll try to keep this short. I suspect the Lehites landed somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico and travelled north on the Mississippi River. Nephi kept the sword of Laban as a template. I suspect he might have kept the ship as a template as well. Long story short. Once the civil wars were over, there would have been nothing to keep the civilisation limited to a small area. I have heard people say that they were limited to Yucatan or just the state of New York. No, I see a vast Nephite thalassocracy extending from the Great Lakes to the north shore of South America in the Caribbean. Trade, money, capitalism. Nothing like these to build an empire. There is a lot more to discuss, eg, interaction with Asiatics, further trans-Atlantic migrations, and the politicisation of North American historiography, but this will have to do for now.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Shawn Henry »

anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.
I've been mulling this idea over for a few years now. I keep getting drawn back by the BoM description of the gentiles and how they scatter Lehi's seed and how that is the promised land. I know the promised land moved to where both Lehi and Mulek landed, so the promised land can easily be where the promised people are. This is a hard one to figure out.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:55 pm
anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.
I've been mulling this idea over for a few years now. I keep getting drawn back by the BoM description of the gentiles and how they scatter Lehi's seed and how that is the promised land. I know the promised land moved to where both Lehi and Mulek landed, so the promised land can easily be where the promised people are. This is a ha to figure out.
This guy is a TBM, he does awesome work!

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 5th, 2023, 10:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:55 pm
anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.
I've been mulling this idea over for a few years now. I keep getting drawn back by the BoM description of the gentiles and how they scatter Lehi's seed and how that is the promised land. I know the promised land moved to where both Lehi and Mulek landed, so the promised land can easily be where the promised people are. This is a ha to figure out.
This guy is a TBM, he does awesome work!
He does do great work. Those Lamanite references in scripture are why I've always known the BoM locations to be where the Lord said they were. I guess what I'm looking for is knowledge on when one land of promise is no longer such because the promises transfer with the people to an entirely different land. It happened with Mulek and Lehi leaving. Mulek transferred the kingly line of the Southern Kingdom to America. Lehi transferred the prophetic line of the Northern Kingdom. Here's is what I mean; is it possible for the latter-day exodus to take us to an entirely different land? Right now, I'm 90% no, but I can't shake the remaining 10%. Everything else I'm so at peace with, but not this.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Wolfwoman »

There were mounds all over the heartland area with artifacts and such that were turned into farmland and cities.

Also 10,000+ artifacts found in Michigan.

Some modern Native American tribes have DNA in common with people in the middle East.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Bronco73idi »

Shawn Henry wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 5th, 2023, 10:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:55 pm
anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.
I've been mulling this idea over for a few years now. I keep getting drawn back by the BoM description of the gentiles and how they scatter Lehi's seed and how that is the promised land. I know the promised land moved to where both Lehi and Mulek landed, so the promised land can easily be where the promised people are. This is a ha to figure out.
This guy is a TBM, he does awesome work!
He does do great work. Those Lamanite references in scripture are why I've always known the BoM locations to be where the Lord said they were. I guess what I'm looking for is knowledge on when one land of promise is no longer such because the promises transfer with the people to an entirely different land. It happened with Mulek and Lehi leaving. Mulek transferred the kingly line of the Southern Kingdom to America. Lehi transferred the prophetic line of the Northern Kingdom. Here's is what I mean; is it possible for the latter-day exodus to take us to an entirely different land? Right now, I'm 90% no, but I can't shake the remaining 10%. Everything else I'm so at peace with, but not this.
I have watched all of his videos.

Why do you believe Lehi was a descendent from Ephraim?

The northern kingdom is the house of Israel, lost ten tribes. Old Testament, especially Jeremiah, separates house of Israel and house of Judah, northern and southern people. It gets even more complicated with the word goy. Goy was used for other nations, ie Judahians talking about Ephraimites. Goy was also used when talking about heathen nations, Israelites talking about Canaanites. When translated into Latin the translators took the liberty to use goy = other nations (other Israelites) and goy = Gentiles depending on how they justified the content of the use.

I say all of this because the time of the Gentiles can literally mean time of the northern kingdom or house of Ephraim. Jeremiah chapter 31 is all about this “20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?” This was written roughly 150 years after Ephraimites were taken away by Assyrians.

To say Lehi or Mulek are better prophets then Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Daniel in my opinion is wrong, I would call them equal.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:19 am
Why do you believe Lehi was a descendent from Ephraim?

The northern kingdom is the house of Israel, lost ten tribes. Old Testament, especially Jeremiah, separates house of Israel and house of Judah, northern and southern people. It gets even more complicated with the word goy. Goy was used for other nations, ie Judahians talking about Ephraimites. Goy was also used when talking about heathen nations, Israelites talking about Canaanites. When translated into Latin the translators took the liberty to use goy = other nations (other Israelites) and goy = Gentiles depending on how they justified the content of the use.

I say all of this because the time of the Gentiles can literally mean time of the northern kingdom or house of Ephraim. Jeremiah chapter 31 is all about this “20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?” This was written roughly 150 years after Ephraimites were taken away by Assyrians.

To say Lehi or Mulek are better prophets then Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Daniel in my opinion is wrong, I would call them equal.
If I said Ephraim I meant of Joseph. I'm proposing that the continuation of prophets through Lehi's seed represents a transfer of the leadership line of the Northern Kingdom to America. Yes, those other prophets are equal with Lehi, but those lines didn't continue producing prophets, at least not that we know of. Mulek was the only surviving son of the king so naturally he brought the Davidic kingship line with him.

It's been a working supposition of mine that these remnants of the Northern and Southern Kingdom coming to America represent a pre-fulfillment of the latter-day reunification of the two kingdoms that will happen as we are establishing Zion.

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BeNotDeceived
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Post by BeNotDeceived »

nightlight wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:00 am
There will be no mike standing in the summer

BND will move the goal post in the 🍁🍂
Big plans are currently in the works that may be coming to goalposts near you.

Time will be the teller & many wonderful stories have already been told.

Standing tall requires a place, and OD will not do

Purple Circle awaiting gBeta type action

Fruit doth come in many forms

Gary is a subset on Gravity

Valo is a subset of Volare

Slog's bog has slowly

arrived at a state

where it's ready

for moor

oao

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ransomme
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by ransomme »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:58 pm Yes, but I disagree with what we were taught about the storyline between Alma and Corianton. The doctrine Alma teaches is correct, but Corianton didn’t sleep with a harlot.
Could that be an idiomatic usage of "slept with a harlot"? Jezebel?

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ransomme
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by ransomme »

gkearney wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:30 am
nightlight wrote: January 27th, 2023, 11:54 pm
gkearney wrote: January 27th, 2023, 6:54 pm Rather binary approach here it either 100% true or 100% false. No shades of grey here, no sir.
Okay....let's be real

Do you think a man named Lehi really cross the ocean with his family to land in the Americas?

Yes or no?
I think it very likely that the fundamental story line is true. That someone that the Book of Mormon identifies as Lehi did cross the ocean with his family at about that time.

However I am unwilling to bank on all the details of that story or that Lehi was somehow unique in taking such a journey.

Put another way I believe in what the Book of Mormon and other scriptures teach us as true but I do not have a testimony of the historiography of scripture.
Lehi wasn't unique. Mulekites, the brother of Jared, and other sheep come to mind.

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ransomme
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by ransomme »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:19 am
Shawn Henry wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 5th, 2023, 10:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: February 5th, 2023, 9:55 pm
I've been mulling this idea over for a few years now. I keep getting drawn back by the BoM description of the gentiles and how they scatter Lehi's seed and how that is the promised land. I know the promised land moved to where both Lehi and Mulek landed, so the promised land can easily be where the promised people are. This is a ha to figure out.
This guy is a TBM, he does awesome work!
He does do great work. Those Lamanite references in scripture are why I've always known the BoM locations to be where the Lord said they were. I guess what I'm looking for is knowledge on when one land of promise is no longer such because the promises transfer with the people to an entirely different land. It happened with Mulek and Lehi leaving. Mulek transferred the kingly line of the Southern Kingdom to America. Lehi transferred the prophetic line of the Northern Kingdom. Here's is what I mean; is it possible for the latter-day exodus to take us to an entirely different land? Right now, I'm 90% no, but I can't shake the remaining 10%. Everything else I'm so at peace with, but not this.
I have watched all of his videos.

Why do you believe Lehi was a descendent from Ephraim?

The northern kingdom is the house of Israel, lost ten tribes. Old Testament, especially Jeremiah, separates house of Israel and house of Judah, northern and southern people. It gets even more complicated with the word goy. Goy was used for other nations, ie Judahians talking about Ephraimites. Goy was also used when talking about heathen nations, Israelites talking about Canaanites. When translated into Latin the translators took the liberty to use goy = other nations (other Israelites) and goy = Gentiles depending on how they justified the content of the use.

I say all of this because the time of the Gentiles can literally mean time of the northern kingdom or house of Ephraim. Jeremiah chapter 31 is all about this “20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?” This was written roughly 150 years after Ephraimites were taken away by Assyrians.

To say Lehi or Mulek are better prophets then Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Daniel in my opinion is wrong, I would call them equal.
Latin "gentilis" originally meant non-Roman.

Both Hebrew "goy" and Greek "ethnos" didn't necessarily mean non-Israelite.

The Nations/Gentiles comes from the Tower of Babel and the confusing of the languages.

One could see Israel having received the birthright (Firstborn status) and responsibility to administer to all the other nations.

The diaspora of the 10 northern tribes was done to bless the nations, and to mix the 10 tribes amongst all the nations.

Paul speaks to this in Romans 11:25 concerning the "fullness of the Gentiles" and in direct reference to Genesis 48:19 saying that Ephraim was too become a "multitude of nations", which happened via the diaspora.

This is also why we are identified as Gentiles (D&C 60:60)

In the New Testament we can find the following definitions:
* The Jews - observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
* The Hellenists - Jews who adopted Greek culture and language.
* The Nations (goy/ethnos) - the ten tribes and well, the nations.
* The Strangers - non-Jews who joined themselves with the Jews

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 2:24 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:58 pm Yes, but I disagree with what we were taught about the storyline between Alma and Corianton. The doctrine Alma teaches is correct, but Corianton didn’t sleep with a harlot.
Could that be an idiomatic usage of "slept with a harlot"? Jezebel?
Corianton explains what happened between him and his father in the Nemenhah Record. It’s a fascinating story and clarifies what happened to Alma when he disappeared as well as what became of Corianton and the woman he eventually married. Her name was Isabel and yes, she was a harlot, but had repented.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by BuriedTartaria »

anonymous91 wrote: January 28th, 2023, 4:04 am
Recently I've been considering if the reason that we can't find any archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon is potentially people are looking in the wrong place.
I could see this being the case. For me, I've been thinking the evidence is right in front of us, we just can't see it due to how buried it is and manipulation and lying about the history of North America.

Image

Image
link wrote:This 1858 American newspaper article blatantly describes relics of an abandoned Empire scattered across the country.
Architecture, sculpture, painting, and all the arts that adorn civilized life, have flourished in this country, at a period far remote. There is evidence sufficient to prove that these cities were in ruins at least sixteen or eighteen hundred years ago.
A dark shade rests on the antiquities of America, and a few rays of light enliven the gloom. We have ancient history to inform us of the events of Egypt how that empire was founded and how it prospered and fell, we have the same record of Babylon, Greece, Homeland Carthage; but not the least information have we relative to those who erected these cities, what people and whence they came ; not a ray of light to dispel the dark gloom which seems to rest on this excellent history of America.
Hmmmm…
That leads to the question of how was the evidence of these previous cultures eradicated?
A non-Book of Mormon believer reflecting on missing history of North American lands and magnificent buildings in North America possibly not being built by 1700/1800 United States citizens. We have the Book of Mormon to fill in gaps that this person is looking for.

https://adrenogate.net/wp/2020/06/19/th ... an-cities/



Someone needs to plan and host a mudflood/hidden history convention in Utah. Between so many Book of Mormon believers and mudflood believers (completely separated from being aligned with Mormonism) in Utah, I think it could be a success. I'm pretty sure Jon Levi (a pioneer on this work) lives in Utah. He's done a lot of research arguing that buildings attributed to 1800 in Utah are left overs from another civilization.


Image

Detroit, 1877

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Bronco73idi »

ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 4:54 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:19 am
Shawn Henry wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:26 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 5th, 2023, 10:06 pm

This guy is a TBM, he does awesome work!
He does do great work. Those Lamanite references in scripture are why I've always known the BoM locations to be where the Lord said they were. I guess what I'm looking for is knowledge on when one land of promise is no longer such because the promises transfer with the people to an entirely different land. It happened with Mulek and Lehi leaving. Mulek transferred the kingly line of the Southern Kingdom to America. Lehi transferred the prophetic line of the Northern Kingdom. Here's is what I mean; is it possible for the latter-day exodus to take us to an entirely different land? Right now, I'm 90% no, but I can't shake the remaining 10%. Everything else I'm so at peace with, but not this.
I have watched all of his videos.

Why do you believe Lehi was a descendent from Ephraim?

The northern kingdom is the house of Israel, lost ten tribes. Old Testament, especially Jeremiah, separates house of Israel and house of Judah, northern and southern people. It gets even more complicated with the word goy. Goy was used for other nations, ie Judahians talking about Ephraimites. Goy was also used when talking about heathen nations, Israelites talking about Canaanites. When translated into Latin the translators took the liberty to use goy = other nations (other Israelites) and goy = Gentiles depending on how they justified the content of the use.

I say all of this because the time of the Gentiles can literally mean time of the northern kingdom or house of Ephraim. Jeremiah chapter 31 is all about this “20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?” This was written roughly 150 years after Ephraimites were taken away by Assyrians.

To say Lehi or Mulek are better prophets then Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Daniel in my opinion is wrong, I would call them equal.
Latin "gentilis" originally meant non-Roman.

Both Hebrew "goy" and Greek "ethnos" didn't necessarily mean non-Israelite.

The Nations/Gentiles comes from the Tower of Babel and the confusing of the languages.

One could see Israel having received the birthright (Firstborn status) and responsibility to administer to all the other nations.

The diaspora of the 10 northern tribes was done to bless the nations, and to mix the 10 tribes amongst all the nations.

Paul speaks to this in Romans 11:25 concerning the "fullness of the Gentiles" and in direct reference to Genesis 48:19 saying that Ephraim was too become a "multitude of nations", which happened via the diaspora.

This is also why we are identified as Gentiles (D&C 60:60)

In the New Testament we can find the following definitions:
* The Jews - observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
* The Hellenists - Jews who adopted Greek culture and language.
* The Nations (goy/ethnos) - the ten tribes and well, the nations.
* The Strangers - non-Jews who joined themselves with the Jews
Did Paul get everything 100 percent right?

Tie Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 into your theory.

Was Paul greater then either one or both, for his words to be considered to be the final say he would have to be greater then both. Ezekiel is direct about the seed of Abraham being mixed into the heathens and then being pulled back out. Almost like separating the wheat from the tares…..

I find the Tower of Babel reference entertaining. Christians love bringing up the Tower of Babel when they don’t know the origin.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Subcomandante »

The Book of Mormon is true. This I will never deny even if those groups that follow it choose to jump the shark rather than stick to Scriptural principle.

How it is interpreted by many people, that is where the disagreements will come in. And many people fail to look at the Scriptures plainly and look instead for esoteric definitions of what they are, applying eisegetical principles rather than exegetical ones.

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Niemand
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Niemand »

Subcomandante wrote: February 24th, 2023, 9:27 am The Book of Mormon is true. This I will never deny even if those groups that follow it choose to jump the shark rather than stick to Scriptural principle.

How it is interpreted by many people, that is where the disagreements will come in. And many people fail to look at the Scriptures plainly and look instead for esoteric definitions of what they are, applying eisegetical principles rather than exegetical ones.
Not sure what you mean by jumping the shark in this context, Subcomandante.

As I've said elsewhere my primary interest in the Book of Mormon is spiritual. The history is interesting but its main message is as a warning to people in this present age. Unfortunately I can see the patterns of decline setting in. Joseph Smith was responsible for bringing the book out during a time in which the USA was very young and not in deep decline as we are now.

Atrasado
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Atrasado »

Yes, the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the hand of God. That I am completely certain of for many reasons. However, believing in the Book of Mormon and being righteous isn't the same. We must truly repent and have faith in Jesus Christ of we want to be righteous.

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ransomme
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by ransomme »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 24th, 2023, 9:15 am
ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 4:54 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:19 am
Shawn Henry wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:26 am
He does do great work. Those Lamanite references in scripture are why I've always known the BoM locations to be where the Lord said they were. I guess what I'm looking for is knowledge on when one land of promise is no longer such because the promises transfer with the people to an entirely different land. It happened with Mulek and Lehi leaving. Mulek transferred the kingly line of the Southern Kingdom to America. Lehi transferred the prophetic line of the Northern Kingdom. Here's is what I mean; is it possible for the latter-day exodus to take us to an entirely different land? Right now, I'm 90% no, but I can't shake the remaining 10%. Everything else I'm so at peace with, but not this.
I have watched all of his videos.

Why do you believe Lehi was a descendent from Ephraim?

The northern kingdom is the house of Israel, lost ten tribes. Old Testament, especially Jeremiah, separates house of Israel and house of Judah, northern and southern people. It gets even more complicated with the word goy. Goy was used for other nations, ie Judahians talking about Ephraimites. Goy was also used when talking about heathen nations, Israelites talking about Canaanites. When translated into Latin the translators took the liberty to use goy = other nations (other Israelites) and goy = Gentiles depending on how they justified the content of the use.

I say all of this because the time of the Gentiles can literally mean time of the northern kingdom or house of Ephraim. Jeremiah chapter 31 is all about this “20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?” This was written roughly 150 years after Ephraimites were taken away by Assyrians.

To say Lehi or Mulek are better prophets then Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Daniel in my opinion is wrong, I would call them equal.
Latin "gentilis" originally meant non-Roman.

Both Hebrew "goy" and Greek "ethnos" didn't necessarily mean non-Israelite.

The Nations/Gentiles comes from the Tower of Babel and the confusing of the languages.

One could see Israel having received the birthright (Firstborn status) and responsibility to administer to all the other nations.

The diaspora of the 10 northern tribes was done to bless the nations, and to mix the 10 tribes amongst all the nations.

Paul speaks to this in Romans 11:25 concerning the "fullness of the Gentiles" and in direct reference to Genesis 48:19 saying that Ephraim was too become a "multitude of nations", which happened via the diaspora.

This is also why we are identified as Gentiles (D&C 60:60)

In the New Testament we can find the following definitions:
* The Jews - observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
* The Hellenists - Jews who adopted Greek culture and language.
* The Nations (goy/ethnos) - the ten tribes and well, the nations.
* The Strangers - non-Jews who joined themselves with the Jews
Did Paul get everything 100 percent right?

Tie Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 into your theory.

Was Paul greater then either one or both, for his words to be considered to be the final say he would have to be greater then both. Ezekiel is direct about the seed of Abraham being mixed into the heathens and then being pulled back out. Almost like separating the wheat from the tares…..

I find the Tower of Babel reference entertaining. Christians love bringing up the Tower of Babel when they don’t know the origin.
Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles, the gathering of the House of Israel, and the return of the lost 10 Tribes. The formation of New Jerusalem/Zion. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are great End of Times prophecies.

Ezekiel 36
4 Therefore, O mountains (nations) of Israel, hear the word of Lord Yahweh...
8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.

Jeremiah 31:6
Yes, a time is coming
when watchmen* will call out on the mountains (= nations) of Ephraim,
“Come! Let us go to Zion
to worship the Lord our God!”

* a reference to the watchmen who signal the new moons and appointed times, marking times of worship.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, but I was a husband to them,” declares Yahweh. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will cut with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Yahweh: “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 And they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares Yahweh, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

These talk about the New Covenant at the End of Times. Think Zion.
JST/IV Genesis 9 (Ezekiel 11:19,20; Ezekiel 36:26; Jeremiah 31:31-33)
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

Zion was taken into the bosom of God, where the people are one in heart and mind, and I would say of one spirit being one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

Zion may only be achieved by offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We need to trust in God's wisdom and counsel (partake of the tree of Life), having the Word, the Gospel and teachings/law (Torah) "written in our hearts", "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of hearts of flesh." "Our sufficiency is from God...as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3)

So yeah Paul got it right.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Bronco73idi »

ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 1:07 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: February 24th, 2023, 9:15 am
ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 4:54 am
Bronco73idi wrote: February 6th, 2023, 11:19 am

I have watched all of his videos.

Why do you believe Lehi was a descendent from Ephraim?

The northern kingdom is the house of Israel, lost ten tribes. Old Testament, especially Jeremiah, separates house of Israel and house of Judah, northern and southern people. It gets even more complicated with the word goy. Goy was used for other nations, ie Judahians talking about Ephraimites. Goy was also used when talking about heathen nations, Israelites talking about Canaanites. When translated into Latin the translators took the liberty to use goy = other nations (other Israelites) and goy = Gentiles depending on how they justified the content of the use.

I say all of this because the time of the Gentiles can literally mean time of the northern kingdom or house of Ephraim. Jeremiah chapter 31 is all about this “20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child?” This was written roughly 150 years after Ephraimites were taken away by Assyrians.

To say Lehi or Mulek are better prophets then Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Daniel in my opinion is wrong, I would call them equal.
Latin "gentilis" originally meant non-Roman.

Both Hebrew "goy" and Greek "ethnos" didn't necessarily mean non-Israelite.

The Nations/Gentiles comes from the Tower of Babel and the confusing of the languages.

One could see Israel having received the birthright (Firstborn status) and responsibility to administer to all the other nations.

The diaspora of the 10 northern tribes was done to bless the nations, and to mix the 10 tribes amongst all the nations.

Paul speaks to this in Romans 11:25 concerning the "fullness of the Gentiles" and in direct reference to Genesis 48:19 saying that Ephraim was too become a "multitude of nations", which happened via the diaspora.

This is also why we are identified as Gentiles (D&C 60:60)

In the New Testament we can find the following definitions:
* The Jews - observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
* The Hellenists - Jews who adopted Greek culture and language.
* The Nations (goy/ethnos) - the ten tribes and well, the nations.
* The Strangers - non-Jews who joined themselves with the Jews
Did Paul get everything 100 percent right?

Tie Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 into your theory.

Was Paul greater then either one or both, for his words to be considered to be the final say he would have to be greater then both. Ezekiel is direct about the seed of Abraham being mixed into the heathens and then being pulled back out. Almost like separating the wheat from the tares…..

I find the Tower of Babel reference entertaining. Christians love bringing up the Tower of Babel when they don’t know the origin.
Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles, the gathering of the House of Israel, and the return of the lost 10 Tribes. The formation of New Jerusalem/Zion. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are great End of Times prophecies.

Ezekiel 36
4 Therefore, O mountains (nations) of Israel, hear the word of Lord Yahweh...
8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.

Jeremiah 31:6
Yes, a time is coming
when watchmen* will call out on the mountains (= nations) of Ephraim,
“Come! Let us go to Zion
to worship the Lord our God!”

* a reference to the watchmen who signal the new moons and appointed times, marking times of worship.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, but I was a husband to them,” declares Yahweh. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will cut with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Yahweh: “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 And they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares Yahweh, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

These talk about the New Covenant at the End of Times. Think Zion.
JST/IV Genesis 9 (Ezekiel 11:19,20; Ezekiel 36:26; Jeremiah 31:31-33)
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

Zion was taken into the bosom of God, where the people are one in heart and mind, and I would say of one spirit being one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

Zion may only be achieved by offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We need to trust in God's wisdom and counsel (partake of the tree of Life), having the Word, the Gospel and teachings/law (Torah) "written in our hearts", "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of hearts of flesh." "Our sufficiency is from God...as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3)

So yeah Paul got it right.
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4014

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by ransomme »

Bronco73idi wrote: February 24th, 2023, 2:29 pm
ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 1:07 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: February 24th, 2023, 9:15 am
ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 4:54 am

Latin "gentilis" originally meant non-Roman.

Both Hebrew "goy" and Greek "ethnos" didn't necessarily mean non-Israelite.

The Nations/Gentiles comes from the Tower of Babel and the confusing of the languages.

One could see Israel having received the birthright (Firstborn status) and responsibility to administer to all the other nations.

The diaspora of the 10 northern tribes was done to bless the nations, and to mix the 10 tribes amongst all the nations.

Paul speaks to this in Romans 11:25 concerning the "fullness of the Gentiles" and in direct reference to Genesis 48:19 saying that Ephraim was too become a "multitude of nations", which happened via the diaspora.

This is also why we are identified as Gentiles (D&C 60:60)

In the New Testament we can find the following definitions:
* The Jews - observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
* The Hellenists - Jews who adopted Greek culture and language.
* The Nations (goy/ethnos) - the ten tribes and well, the nations.
* The Strangers - non-Jews who joined themselves with the Jews
Did Paul get everything 100 percent right?

Tie Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 into your theory.

Was Paul greater then either one or both, for his words to be considered to be the final say he would have to be greater then both. Ezekiel is direct about the seed of Abraham being mixed into the heathens and then being pulled back out. Almost like separating the wheat from the tares…..

I find the Tower of Babel reference entertaining. Christians love bringing up the Tower of Babel when they don’t know the origin.
Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles, the gathering of the House of Israel, and the return of the lost 10 Tribes. The formation of New Jerusalem/Zion. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are great End of Times prophecies.

Ezekiel 36
4 Therefore, O mountains (nations) of Israel, hear the word of Lord Yahweh...
8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.

Jeremiah 31:6
Yes, a time is coming
when watchmen* will call out on the mountains (= nations) of Ephraim,
“Come! Let us go to Zion
to worship the Lord our God!”

* a reference to the watchmen who signal the new moons and appointed times, marking times of worship.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, but I was a husband to them,” declares Yahweh. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will cut with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Yahweh: “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 And they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares Yahweh, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

These talk about the New Covenant at the End of Times. Think Zion.
JST/IV Genesis 9 (Ezekiel 11:19,20; Ezekiel 36:26; Jeremiah 31:31-33)
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

Zion was taken into the bosom of God, where the people are one in heart and mind, and I would say of one spirit being one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

Zion may only be achieved by offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We need to trust in God's wisdom and counsel (partake of the tree of Life), having the Word, the Gospel and teachings/law (Torah) "written in our hearts", "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of hearts of flesh." "Our sufficiency is from God...as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3)

So yeah Paul got it right.
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Precisely, He scattered the Northern Kingdom (aka the House of Israel) through the countries and will gather them again from the countries.

Now their blood has mixed throughout the countries. And those who will be born again will join the House of Israel.

Genesis 48
17 But Joseph saw that his father set his right hand on Ephraim’s head, and it was displeasing in his sight; so he took hold of his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people, and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of nations.”

aka the fullness of the Gentiles

This is a major sub-theme woven throughout the scriptures. Part of the scriptures' unified message.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Is the Book of Mormon True?

Post by Bronco73idi »

ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 3:39 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: February 24th, 2023, 2:29 pm
ransomme wrote: February 24th, 2023, 1:07 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: February 24th, 2023, 9:15 am

Did Paul get everything 100 percent right?

Tie Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 into your theory.

Was Paul greater then either one or both, for his words to be considered to be the final say he would have to be greater then both. Ezekiel is direct about the seed of Abraham being mixed into the heathens and then being pulled back out. Almost like separating the wheat from the tares…..

I find the Tower of Babel reference entertaining. Christians love bringing up the Tower of Babel when they don’t know the origin.
Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles, the gathering of the House of Israel, and the return of the lost 10 Tribes. The formation of New Jerusalem/Zion. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are great End of Times prophecies.

Ezekiel 36
4 Therefore, O mountains (nations) of Israel, hear the word of Lord Yahweh...
8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.

Jeremiah 31:6
Yes, a time is coming
when watchmen* will call out on the mountains (= nations) of Ephraim,
“Come! Let us go to Zion
to worship the Lord our God!”

* a reference to the watchmen who signal the new moons and appointed times, marking times of worship.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, but I was a husband to them,” declares Yahweh. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will cut with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Yahweh: “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 And they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares Yahweh, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

These talk about the New Covenant at the End of Times. Think Zion.
JST/IV Genesis 9 (Ezekiel 11:19,20; Ezekiel 36:26; Jeremiah 31:31-33)
21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

Zion was taken into the bosom of God, where the people are one in heart and mind, and I would say of one spirit being one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

Zion may only be achieved by offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We need to trust in God's wisdom and counsel (partake of the tree of Life), having the Word, the Gospel and teachings/law (Torah) "written in our hearts", "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of hearts of flesh." "Our sufficiency is from God...as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3)

So yeah Paul got it right.
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Precisely, He scattered the Northern Kingdom (aka the House of Israel) through the countries and will gather them again from the countries.

Now their blood has mixed throughout the countries. And those who will be born again will join the House of Israel.

Genesis 48
17 But Joseph saw that his father set his right hand on Ephraim’s head, and it was displeasing in his sight; so he took hold of his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people, and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of nations.”

aka the fullness of the Gentiles

This is a major sub-theme woven throughout the scriptures. Part of the scriptures' unified message.
How is this different from my post you first replied too last night?

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