Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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Fred
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Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Fred »

A hundred or so years ago the church decided to take the Lectures out of the Doctrine and Covenants. Many people on this forum have a copy of their own. I bought mine on Amazon.

I was taught somewhere along the line that the Lectures were not relevant. Then I discovered LDSFF and had to find out for myself.

Elder Bednar quotes from the Lectures as if they are scripture, but somehow misses what they say.

What do you think?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Removing them from canon gave them all the option of picking and choosing what they want.

How many here on this forum actually consider them scripture as JS did, probably less than 5%.

How many believe God is a spirit, like LoF, the BoM, and the Bible say?

How many believe the Holy Ghost is not an actual person, but is the mind of God, just like the LoF say?

sushi_chef
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by sushi_chef »

elder bedner talks about "Many Are Called, but Few Are Chosen", in 2022 oct conference, but does not tell about calling and election made sure stuff.

"Put On Thy Strength, O Zion
By Elder David A. Bednar
..
The parable then concludes with this penetrating scripture: “For many are called, but few are chosen.”20

Interestingly, Joseph Smith made the following adjustment to this verse from Matthew in his inspired translation of the Bible: “For many are called, but few are chosen; wherefore all do not have on the wedding garment.”21
..
"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... r?lang=eng

the ultimate wedding garment might be that made-sure stuff ..

probably he does understand that lectures part but likely he has not received that election sure yet ...

"we are speaking here of what Paul called the “hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began” (Titus 1:2), being made sure, made solid, made secure. We are reminded of the marvelous words of the Prophet Joseph when he taught: “After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands), … then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoro[ugh]ly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and Election made sure.”6
"
https://www.ldsliving.com/your-calling- ... it/s/11175

lectures on faith "man is determined to serve him at all hazards"
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lectures+on+f ... =h_&ia=web
:arrow:

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Shawn Henry »

We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man's labor be given him.

With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F.G. WILLIAMS.

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marc
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by marc »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:35 pm Removing them from canon gave them all the option of picking and choosing what they want.

How many here on this forum actually consider them scripture as JS did, probably less than 5%.

How many believe God is a spirit, like LoF, the BoM, and the Bible say?

How many believe the Holy Ghost is not an actual person, but is the mind of God, just like the LoF say?
God is not "a" spirit. God is a personage of spirit. Big difference. People are always getting this incorrectly.

Please read pages 8-10 of my treatise:

https://latterdaylamanite.files.wordpre ... itness.pdf

Or if you feel inclined, read the entire thing.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?

endlessQuestions
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by endlessQuestions »

marc wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:35 pm Removing them from canon gave them all the option of picking and choosing what they want.

How many here on this forum actually consider them scripture as JS did, probably less than 5%.

How many believe God is a spirit, like LoF, the BoM, and the Bible say?

How many believe the Holy Ghost is not an actual person, but is the mind of God, just like the LoF say?
God is not "a" spirit. God is a personage of spirit. Big difference. People are always getting this incorrectly.

Please read pages 8-10 of my treatise:

https://latterdaylamanite.files.wordpre ... itness.pdf

Or if you feel inclined, read the entire thing.
A) The part about the word "perhaps" is absolutely fascinating.

B) I have been thinking, and praying about Zion very intently for awhile now, and the things you teach in your paper are very much aligned with what the Spirit has been teaching me. I wonder, have you had any luck in convincing those around you to become more equal? I can't even get my wife to budge on giving up anything of actual value... just junky stuff we have literally no need of.

I very, very much want to try to figure out how we can practically go about becoming a Zion people, but I often feel despondent about it because people see me as so extreme in this area of my life.

EDIT: The word "perhaps" seems to be a Book of Mormon-ism, by and large.

A lot of uncertain Book of Mormon prophets:

perhaps: used to express uncertainty or possibility.

Here are all the times it's used in the standard works:

#############################################################################################

New Testament

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

2 Corinthians 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

Philemon 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;

Book of Mormon

1 Nephi 8:13 And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.

1 Nephi 8:17 And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.

1 Nephi 8:37 And he did exhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent, that they would hearken to his words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them, and not cast them off; yea, my father did preach unto them.

1 Nephi 16:38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that angels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman stir up their hearts to anger.

1 Nephi 19:18 And I, Nephi, have written these things unto my people, that perhaps I might persuade them that they would remember the Lord their Redeemer.

Jacob 5:4 And it came to pass that the master of the vineyard went forth, and he saw that his olive tree began to decay; and he said: I will prune it, and dig about it, and nourish it, that perhaps it may shoot forth young and tender branches, and it perish not.

Jacob 5:11 And the Lord of the vineyard caused that it should be digged about, and pruned, and nourished, saying unto his servant: It grieveth me that I should lose this tree; wherefore, that perhaps I might preserve the roots thereof that they perish not, that I might preserve them unto myself, I have done this thing.

Jacob 5:27 But behold, the servant said unto him: Let us prune it, and dig about it, and nourish it a little longer, that perhaps it may bring forth good fruit unto thee, that thou canst lay it up against the season.

Jacob 5:53 And this will I do that the tree may not perish, that, perhaps, I may preserve unto myself the roots thereof for mine own purpose.

Jacob 5:54 And, behold, the roots of the natural branches of the tree which I planted whithersoever I would are yet alive; wherefore, that I may preserve them also for mine own purpose, I will take of the branches of this tree, and I will graft them in unto them. Yea, I will graft in unto them the branches of their mother tree, that I may preserve the roots also unto mine own self, that when they shall be sufficiently strong perhaps they may bring forth good fruit unto me, and I may yet have glory in the fruit of my vineyard.

Jacob 5:59 And this I do that, perhaps, the roots thereof may take strength because of their goodness; and because of the change of the branches, that the good may overcome the evil.

Jacob 5:60 And because that I have preserved the natural branches and the roots thereof, and that I have grafted in the natural branches again into their mother tree, and have preserved the roots of their mother tree, that, perhaps, the trees of my vineyard may bring forth again good fruit; and that I may have joy again in the fruit of my vineyard, and, perhaps, that I may rejoice exceedingly that I have preserved the roots and the branches of the first fruit--

Enos 1:13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him--that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation--

Words of Mormon 1:2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them.

Mosiah 4:17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just--

Mosiah 4:28 And I would that ye should remember, that whosoever among you borroweth of his neighbor should return the thing that he borroweth, according as he doth agree, or else thou shalt commit sin; and perhaps thou shalt cause thy neighbor to commit sin also.

Mosiah 8:12 And I say unto thee again: Knowest thou of any one that can translate? For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language; for, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came; or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction.

Mosiah 28:2 That perhaps they might bring them to the knowledge of the Lord their God, and convince them of the iniquity of their fathers; and that perhaps they might cure them of their hatred towards the Nephites, that they might also be brought to rejoice in the Lord their God, that they might become friendly to one another, and that there should be no more contentions in all the land which the Lord their God had given them.

Alma 9:11 Yea, and if it had not been for his matchless power, and his mercy, and his long-suffering towards us, we should unavoidably have been cut off from the face of the earth long before this period of time, and perhaps been consigned to a state of endless misery and woe.

Alma 14:12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

Alma 17:16 Therefore, this was the cause for which the sons of Mosiah had undertaken the work, that perhaps they might bring them unto repentance; that perhaps they might bring them to know of the plan of redemption.

Alma 17:23 And Ammon said unto him: Yea, I desire to dwell among this people for a time; yea, and perhaps until the day I die.

Alma 19:29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!

Alma 20:18 And again, it is expedient that thou shouldst forbear; for if thou shouldst slay thy son, he being an innocent man, his blood would cry from the ground to the Lord his God, for vengeance to come upon thee; and perhaps thou wouldst lose thy soul.

Alma 24:13 Behold, I say unto you, Nay, let us retain our swords that they be not stained with the blood of our brethren; for perhaps, if we should stain our swords again they can no more be washed bright through the blood of the Son of our great God, which shall be shed for the atonement of our sins.

Alma 26:26 But behold, my beloved brethren, we came into the wilderness not with the intent to destroy our brethren, but with the intent that perhaps we might save some few of their souls.

Alma 26:30 And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

Alma 29:9 I know that which the Lord hath commanded me, and I glory in it. I do not glory of myself, but I glory in that which the Lord hath commanded me; yea, and this is my glory, that perhaps I may be an instrument in the hands of God to bring some soul to repentance; and this is my joy.

Alma 36:11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did not hear them; for when I heard the words--If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God--I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.

Alma 49:10 Now, if king Amalickiah had come down out of the land of Nephi, at the head of his army, perhaps he would have caused the Lamanites to have attacked the Nephites at the city of Ammonihah; for behold, he did care not for the blood of his people.

Alma 52:10 And Moroni also sent unto him, desiring him that he would be faithful in maintaining that quarter of the land, and that he would seek every opportunity to scourge the Lamanites in that quarter, as much as was in his power, that perhaps he might take again by stratagem or some other way those cities which had been taken out of their hands; and that he also would fortify and strengthen the cities round about, which had not fallen into the hands of the Lamanites.

Alma 52:28 And now behold, when the chief captains of the Lamanites had beheld Lehi with his army coming against them, they fled in much confusion, lest perhaps they should not obtain the city Mulek before Lehi should overtake them; for they were wearied because of their march, and the men of Lehi were fresh.

Alma 55:4 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.

Alma 56:19 And thus were we favored of the Lord; for had they come upon us in this our weakness they might have perhaps destroyed our little army; but thus were we preserved.

Helaman 11:4 O Lord, do not suffer that this people shall be destroyed by the sword; but O Lord, rather let there be a famine in the land, to stir them up in remembrance of the Lord their God, and perhaps they will repent and turn unto thee.

Mormon 2:21 And it came to pass that we did fortify the city of Shem, and we did gather in our people as much as it were possible, that perhaps we might save them from destruction.

Mormon 9:6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

Moroni 1:4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

Doctrine and Covenants

Doctrine and Covenants 123:4 And perhaps a committee can be appointed to find out these things, and to take statements and affidavits; and also to gather up the libelous publications that are afloat;
Last edited by endlessQuestions on January 21st, 2023, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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marc
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by marc »

endlessQuestions wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:47 pm
marc wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:35 pm Removing them from canon gave them all the option of picking and choosing what they want.

How many here on this forum actually consider them scripture as JS did, probably less than 5%.

How many believe God is a spirit, like LoF, the BoM, and the Bible say?

How many believe the Holy Ghost is not an actual person, but is the mind of God, just like the LoF say?
God is not "a" spirit. God is a personage of spirit. Big difference. People are always getting this incorrectly.

Please read pages 8-10 of my treatise:

https://latterdaylamanite.files.wordpre ... itness.pdf

Or if you feel inclined, read the entire thing.
A) The part about the word "perhaps" is absolutely fascinating.

B) I have been thinking, and praying about Zion very intently for awhile now, and the things you teach in your paper are very much aligned with what the Spirit has been teaching me. I wonder, have you had any luck in convincing those around you to become more equal? I can't even get my wife to budge on giving up anything of actual value... just junky stuff we have literally no need of.

I very, very much want to try to figure out how we can practically go about becoming a Zion people, but I often feel despondent about it because people see me as so extreme in this area of my life.
A. Thank you. I spent many years wrestling with the Lord in order to understand the Lectures on Faith (and a ton of digging/reading).

B. Because I have been practicing what I preach, I believe I have persuaded my wife to understand by my example that it's correct and so she is also very giving of herself, too. It all begins with a Zion of one: you. Then through your example of patience and a whole lot of longsuffering, you are able to persuade those closest to you and then you can become a Zion family in your home. You might even be able through continuous loving service, persuade a neighbor. The process continues in this way with people around you.

My wife still shops and buys things she doesn't need, and sometimes I do to. But we're at a point in our lives where they serve as pastimes or a means of bringing us simple joy. I have no problem giving up whatever I have to help someone as I already live a consecrated life. And yes, to a typical Christian/LDS, you will appear radical and extreme. And I specifically address this on pages 12 and 13 if you want to read it again.

endlessQuestions
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by endlessQuestions »

marc wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:03 pm
endlessQuestions wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:47 pm
marc wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:35 pm Removing them from canon gave them all the option of picking and choosing what they want.

How many here on this forum actually consider them scripture as JS did, probably less than 5%.

How many believe God is a spirit, like LoF, the BoM, and the Bible say?

How many believe the Holy Ghost is not an actual person, but is the mind of God, just like the LoF say?
God is not "a" spirit. God is a personage of spirit. Big difference. People are always getting this incorrectly.

Please read pages 8-10 of my treatise:

https://latterdaylamanite.files.wordpre ... itness.pdf

Or if you feel inclined, read the entire thing.
A) The part about the word "perhaps" is absolutely fascinating.

B) I have been thinking, and praying about Zion very intently for awhile now, and the things you teach in your paper are very much aligned with what the Spirit has been teaching me. I wonder, have you had any luck in convincing those around you to become more equal? I can't even get my wife to budge on giving up anything of actual value... just junky stuff we have literally no need of.

I very, very much want to try to figure out how we can practically go about becoming a Zion people, but I often feel despondent about it because people see me as so extreme in this area of my life.
A. Thank you. I spent many years wrestling with the Lord in order to understand the Lectures on Faith (and a ton of digging/reading).

B. Because I have been practicing what I preach, I believe I have persuaded my wife to understand by my example that it's correct and so she is also very giving of herself, too. It all begins with a Zion of one: you. Then through your example of patience and a whole lot of longsuffering, you are able to persuade those closest to you and then you can become a Zion family in your home. You might even be able through continuous loving service, persuade a neighbor. The process continues in this way with people around you.

My wife still shops and buys things she doesn't need, and sometimes I do to. But we're at a point in our lives where they serve as pastimes or a means of bringing us simple joy. I have no problem giving up whatever I have to help someone as I already live a consecrated life. And yes, to a typical Christian/LDS, you will appear radical and extreme. And I specifically address this on pages 12 and 13 if you want to read it again.
I will read it again. Thanks!

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:35 pm Removing them from canon gave them all the option of picking and choosing what they want.

How many here on this forum actually consider them scripture as JS did, probably less than 5%.

How many believe God is a spirit, like LoF, the BoM, and the Bible say?

How many believe the Holy Ghost is not an actual person, but is the mind of God, just like the LoF say?
God is not "a" spirit. God is a personage of spirit. Big difference. People are always getting this incorrectly.

Please read pages 8-10 of my treatise:

https://latterdaylamanite.files.wordpre ... itness.pdf

Or if you feel inclined, read the entire thing.
Yes, that is well written, thanks for the link. God is a personage of spirit. It's too bad LoF doesn't expound upon why personage of spirit is emphasized or how D&C 93:33 relates, but I suppose we have enough for now. Any additional expoundings would have to add to the Bible and BoM which state he is a spirit and not take the meaning in the opposite direction. I would love to know how spirit and element are combined, but yet one is still not flesh but a spirit or personage of spirit.

Whether a personage of spirit or a personage of flesh, it is still just a personage, like changing your clothing. I could be in the personage of a mailman, police officer, or whatever, but I'm just me on the inside. So remove the label personage and what do we have left?

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Obrien »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
Probably most of the people in the world believe just that thing.

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Obrien wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:16 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
Probably most of the people in the world believe just that thing.
I should have clarified that statement. Are there people here on the forum (LDS background) that hold that belief?

I do agree, most of the Christian world follows the tenets as outlined in the Creed of Nicaea.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
He's a "personage of spirit" according to Lectures on Faith. I don't know what that means, please tell me if you do.

The Bible says spirit, the BoM says spirit, and LoF says personage of spirit.

Marc rightfully connects D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy

Mesh that successfully with the other scriptures and I'll definitely hear you out.

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
He's a "personage of spirit" according to Lectures on Faith. I don't know what that means, please tell me if you do.

The Bible says spirit, the BoM says spirit, and LoF says personage of spirit.

Marc rightfully connects D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy

Mesh that successfully with the other scriptures and I'll definitely hear you out.
What’s the point of the resurrection?

1 Cor.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

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marc
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by marc »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
He's a "personage of spirit" according to Lectures on Faith. I don't know what that means, please tell me if you do.

The Bible says spirit, the BoM says spirit, and LoF says personage of spirit.

Marc rightfully connects D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy

Mesh that successfully with the other scriptures and I'll definitely hear you out.
I think I've addressed this on the forum before. I'm getting super drowsy right now and I'd probably butcher my attempt to explain it. The short answer is spirit is still matter but more pure or fine. But without a body of flesh, we couldn't learn good from evil, etc or experience joy or sorrow or all the opposition of things in order to transcend them and thus receive a fullness of joy.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:35 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
He's a "personage of spirit" according to Lectures on Faith. I don't know what that means, please tell me if you do.

The Bible says spirit, the BoM says spirit, and LoF says personage of spirit.

Marc rightfully connects D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy

Mesh that successfully with the other scriptures and I'll definitely hear you out.
I think I've addressed this on the forum before. I'm getting super drowsy right now and I'd probably butcher my attempt to explain it. The short answer is spirit is still matter but more pure or fine. But without a body of flesh, we couldn't learn good from evil, etc or experience joy or sorrow or all the opposition of things in order to transcend them and thus receive a fullness of joy.
I totally agree with that, but what happens after we learn all that? Why do we need the clunky old flesh afterwards?

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Moses 1:39 “ 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”

I believe immortality to be more than just living for ever as a spirit, but with a perfected body. Hence why the additional reference to “eternal life”? And no, this isn’t just talking about living in the presence of God forever.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:32 pm What’s the point of the resurrection?
In order to be judged according to the flesh, you have to be in the flesh. I don't know why that is and I don't know what the difference is between a spirit and personage of spirit or a tabernacle and a personage of tabernacle, but there is obviously a difference because both are used.

My personal opinion of a permanent resurrection is that you have earned the right to make it permanent if you choose to, but if you want to learn and grow more you can go back to the classroom of mortality and learn more, but that is just a personal opinion.

If our end goal is to be like God the Father, then our end goal is to become a personage of spirit. Resurrection is just a means to that end.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:56 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:32 pm What’s the point of the resurrection?
In order to be judged according to the flesh, you have to be in the flesh. I don't know why that is and I don't know what the difference is between a spirit and personage of spirit or a tabernacle and a personage of tabernacle, but there is obviously a difference because both are used.

My personal opinion of a permanent resurrection is that you have earned the right to make it permanent if you choose to, but if you want to learn and grow more you can go back to the classroom of mortality and learn more, but that is just a personal opinion.

If our end goal is to be like God the Father, then our end goal is to become a personage of spirit. Resurrection is just a means to that end.
The Ascension of Isaiah adds similar context. His “robes” were in the 7th heaven. Each being a mortal body he was clothed in. I just wonder what the more accurate definition is of “immortality” in Moses 1:39.

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:39 pm . . . . . I totally agree with that, but what happens after we learn all that? Why do we need the clunky old flesh afterwards?
Is a glorified body that clunky? I doubt it. I see it as being allowed to operate to the highest degree in the full spectrum of reality.

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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A personage of Spirit is one whose Spirit has complete mastery over their temporal or physical selves.

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Niemand
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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Since I've been writing a bit about the Deuterocanonical books in the Bible... I think Lectures on Faith, the King Follet Discourse, Proclamation on the Family and certain other documents fill that gap in Mormonism.

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Mindfields
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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:32 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
He's a "personage of spirit" according to Lectures on Faith. I don't know what that means, please tell me if you do.

The Bible says spirit, the BoM says spirit, and LoF says personage of spirit.

Marc rightfully connects D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy

Mesh that successfully with the other scriptures and I'll definitely hear you out.
What’s the point of the resurrection?

1 Cor.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Perhaps the resurrection is no more or less than living on after this life. Before Christ overcame death, living on after death wasn't possible for the rest of us.
Last edited by Mindfields on January 22nd, 2023, 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Mindfields wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:11 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:32 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:38 pm Wait a minute, are there people that believe God has no physicality?
He's a "personage of spirit" according to Lectures on Faith. I don't know what that means, please tell me if you do.

The Bible says spirit, the BoM says spirit, and LoF says personage of spirit.

Marc rightfully connects D&C 93:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy

Mesh that successfully with the other scriptures and I'll definitely hear you out.
What’s the point of the resurrection?

1 Cor.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Perhaps the resurrection is no more or less than living on after this life. Before Christ overcame death, living on after death wasn't possible for the reat of us.
Moses 1:30 would challenge that idea. Plus, we already live on as spirits. And yes, before Christ’s death, spirits lived in the spirit realm. He specifically taught that we went there and taught the spirits there.

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Re: Does Elder Bednar understand the Lectures on Faith?

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From the 1828 Websters:

PER'SONAGE, noun A man or woman of distinction; as an illustrious personage

1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage

2. Character assumed.

The Venetians, naturally grave, love to give in to the follies of such seasons, when disguised in a false personage

3. Character represented.

Some persons must be found, already known in history, whom we may make the actors and personages of this fable.

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