Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

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Redpilled Mormon
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Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Growing up lds, I always heard that Jesus was the same guy as Yahweh, the God of the old testament. I want to ask where we get this idea from? Although I put very little stock in D&C and the Pearl, still I'm looking for any and all scriptural references that might support this.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the actions of the 'god' of the old testament who seems to me to be lacking in omnipotence, omnicience, basic goodness, kindness, and seems extremely bloodthirsty and evil in many instances, yet somehow this same guy turns into Jesus? It seems weird.

I should also delineate between the God in early Genesis that spoke to Adam and Eve etc (who seems like actual God to me) and the one that was instructing the extermination and genocide right down to hoisting infants on swords and demanding virgin girls for himself. They don't seem like the same guy at all.

I have heard the theory floated that the god in most of the old testament is the same as the 'god' of this world, ie Satan; which I thought was an interesting possibility, though I don't see much to support it.

Anyway I'm hoping someone can give some idea why lds culture presumes Yahweh and Jesus are the same guy.

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marc
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by marc »

It's all here: viewtopic.php?t=40507

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

marc wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:16 pm It's all here: viewtopic.php?t=40507
Haven't had a chance to read it through yet, but first line is about Jesus being Jehovah. I think that's different than Jesus = Yahweh. I'll read through it and see if Jehovah = Yahweh is also presented.

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Luke
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Luke »

All Gods are Yahweh.

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marc
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by marc »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:27 pm
marc wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:16 pm It's all here: viewtopic.php?t=40507
Haven't had a chance to read it through yet, but first line is about Jesus being Jehovah. I think that's different than Jesus = Yahweh. I'll read through it and see if Jehovah = Yahweh is also presented.
Yahweh=YHWH=Jehovah. Others pronounce it differently. Some just say Yah only.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Wolfwoman »

I was just reading some of that other thread. LDS/Mormons are the only ones who teach that Yahweh is Jesus?! But don’t others believe in the trinity and all that?! The trinity is a confusing doctrine.

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John Tavner
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by John Tavner »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:15 pm Growing up lds, I always heard that Jesus was the same guy as Yahweh, the God of the old testament. I want to ask where we get this idea from? Although I put very little stock in D&C and the Pearl, still I'm looking for any and all scriptural references that might support this.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the actions of the 'god' of the old testament who seems to me to be lacking in omnipotence, omnicience, basic goodness, kindness, and seems extremely bloodthirsty and evil in many instances, yet somehow this same guy turns into Jesus? It seems weird.

I should also delineate between the God in early Genesis that spoke to Adam and Eve etc (who seems like actual God to me) and the one that was instructing the extermination and genocide right down to hoisting infants on swords and demanding virgin girls for himself. They don't seem like the same guy at all.

I have heard the theory floated that the god in most of the old testament is the same as the 'god' of this world, ie Satan; which I thought was an interesting possibility, though I don't see much to support it.

Anyway I'm hoping someone can give some idea why lds culture presumes Yahweh and Jesus are the same guy.
One way to understand the Old Testament is through the eyes of the New. In the Old Testament the people were under the law of Sin and Death - often punishment is just an udnerstanding of consequence for their action. The people though they knew about God, often did not fully understand the character of God. If you believe the Book of Mormon, look at the astonishment of Lehi when He learns of the mercy of God through Christ. Most people ascribed to God in the first degree which rather would be something htat whould be ascribed to God in the third degree. For instance God has warned against certain sins. The people ignore those sins for 40 years - those sins actually lead to real world consequences and unless the people repent, they will suffer from those consequences. They fail to repent and the consequences occur. Furthermore, more often than not if you read the Old testament you willl find God is pretty merciful. The Jews constantly vacillated between 3 main false gods. Baal, Asherah, and Moloch. Baal was worship of money and wealth, and self focus Asherah was a goddess of immorality and drunkenness, including transgender/homosexual activities and Moloch was the god of death and human sacrifice. Is it any wonder if those types of sins would "offend" their neighbor and create war- what if it happened to those from other countries visiting? God on the otherhand was very merciful. See Jonah and the Ninehvites. If the people truly just repented and gave up their ways, often times these consequences could be avoided, because they would join or be a part of the Kingdom of God and under His protection rather than remaining under the law of sin and death. Christ came to establish us in the Kingdom of life.

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marc
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by marc »

Wolfwoman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:58 pm I was just reading some of that other thread. LDS/Mormons are the only ones who teach that Yahweh is Jesus?! But don’t others believe in the trinity and all that?! The trinity is a confusing doctrine.
I don't pay attention to the trinity doctrine of other religions, although I know people of other religions who were surprised by Abinadi's description of Jesus Christ being Father and Son together. It's confusing to the mortal mind because they are not accustomed to the things of the Spirit. It requires study and meditation/pondering. This is how you learn things by the Spirit. But you gotta do your homework.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

John Tavner wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:03 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:15 pm Growing up lds, I always heard that Jesus was the same guy as Yahweh, the God of the old testament. I want to ask where we get this idea from? Although I put very little stock in D&C and the Pearl, still I'm looking for any and all scriptural references that might support this.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the actions of the 'god' of the old testament who seems to me to be lacking in omnipotence, omnicience, basic goodness, kindness, and seems extremely bloodthirsty and evil in many instances, yet somehow this same guy turns into Jesus? It seems weird.

I should also delineate between the God in early Genesis that spoke to Adam and Eve etc (who seems like actual God to me) and the one that was instructing the extermination and genocide right down to hoisting infants on swords and demanding virgin girls for himself. They don't seem like the same guy at all.

I have heard the theory floated that the god in most of the old testament is the same as the 'god' of this world, ie Satan; which I thought was an interesting possibility, though I don't see much to support it.

Anyway I'm hoping someone can give some idea why lds culture presumes Yahweh and Jesus are the same guy.
One way to understand the Old Testament is through the eyes of the New. In the Old Testament the people were under the law of Sin and Death - often punishment is just an udnerstanding of consequence for their action. The people though they knew about God, often did not fully understand the character of God. If you believe the Book of Mormon, look at the astonishment of Lehi when He learns of the mercy of God through Christ. Most people ascribed to God in the first degree which rather would be something htat whould be ascribed to God in the third degree. For instance God has warned against certain sins. The people ignore those sins for 40 years - those sins actually lead to real world consequences and unless the people repent, they will suffer from those consequences. They fail to repent and the consequences occur. Furthermore, more often than not if you read the Old testament you willl find God is pretty merciful. The Jews constantly vacillated between 3 main false gods. Baal, Asherah, and Moloch. Baal was worship of money and wealth, and self focus Asherah was a goddess of immorality and drunkenness, including transgender/homosexual activities and Moloch was the god of death and human sacrifice. Is it any wonder if those types of sins would "offend" their neighbor and create war- what if it happened to those from other countries visiting? God on the otherhand was very merciful. See Jonah and the Ninehvites. If the people truly just repented and gave up their ways, often times these consequences could be avoided, because they would join or be a part of the Kingdom of God and under His protection rather than remaining under the law of sin and death. Christ came to establish us in the Kingdom of life.
I mean, I get the idea that heaps of stuff were laid at the feet of God which were really just the evils of man who was blame-shifting. But I'm talking about the times that God gives a first-person instruction "hey go over there and murder all those guys in their sleep, make sure the slaughter the infants and the puppies and the kittens, and oh yeah bring me back some virgins too". This is a totally different situation than someone claiming after the fact 'God made me do it', but rather first hand accounts of what God instructed. It doesn't comport with our understanding of a good/just God at all.

This is also different than God himself doing the act, like in the case of the flood etc. This is the involvement of God making man (who has agency to judge right and wrong) execute something that appears evil on God's behalf. We could say 'well it's a test of obedience, sort of like Abraham and Isaac'. But God actually stopped the evil act from occuring in that case. And anyway isn't the whole purpose of mortality to give the illusion of privacy so that we can have the reality of free will, choosing good vs evil and understanding it? How does a test of obedience 'will you do this evil thing I commanded you' not destroy the purpose of man learning to judge evil vs good and exercise agency?

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ransomme
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by ransomme »

Interesting to consider, especially how in proto-Hebrew letters had both meanings and sounds, like Egyptian. In proto-Hebrew YHWH meant Behold / Nail / Behold / Hand (Right Hand).
YHWH hebrew.png
YHWH hebrew.png (98.1 KiB) Viewed 699 times
Also, consider that Jesus' name included YHW.

Hand + Behold + Nail + Behold
Jehovah, YHWH or YHVH - יְהֹוָה
Yehoshua - יְהוֹשׁוּעַ
Yahusha - יהושע
ιησούς
Joshua / Jesus / Jeesus / Иисус
Meaning: Jehovah avenges, defends, delivers, helps, preserves, rescues, saves, brings salvation, your Savior, brings you to victory.

From the Book of Abraham
YHWH egyptian.png
YHWH egyptian.png (141.87 KiB) Viewed 699 times

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JLHPROF
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by JLHPROF »

The old joke about the current Church teachings on this is that "Jehovah in the Old Testament is always Jesus except when it can't be Jesus then it's Heavenly Father".

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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by onefour1 »

In the Old Testament we have God appearing unto Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses.

When the Lord appeared unto Moses and spake to him face to face he let Moses know that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and that he appeared unto them:

Exodus 6:2-3
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

In this verse He tells us that His name is also Jehovah (Yahweh).

Deuteronomy 10:10
10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The Apostle John tells us that up until his day nobody had ever seen God the Father but that it was his Only Begotten Son that had declared the Father unto them.

John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

One must ask at this point, if nobody had seen God the Father, then who was it that appeared unto Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses? If it wasn't the Father then that someone named Jehovah (Yahweh) must have been another member of the Godhead.

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JLHPROF
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

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onefour1 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:17 pm In the Old Testament we have God appearing unto Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses.

When the Lord appeared unto Moses and spake to him face to face he let Moses know that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and that he appeared unto them:

Exodus 6:2-3
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

In this verse He tells us that His name is also Jehovah (Yahweh).

Deuteronomy 10:10
10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The Apostle John tells us that up until his day nobody had ever seen God the Father but that it was his Only Begotten Son that had declared the Father unto them.

John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

One must ask at this point, if nobody had seen God the Father, then who was it that appeared unto Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses? If it wasn't the Father then that someone named Jehovah (Yahweh) must have been another member of the Godhead.
JST changes that scripture.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

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3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus [Yeshua], calling him their Lord [YHWH] and their God [Elohim].

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JLHPROF
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SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:06 pm 3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus [Yeshua], calling him their Lord [YHWH] and their God [Elohim].
Without the original text from the plates you have no way of knowing for sure when YHWH vs Elohim were used, or even if the original text used the Hebrew distinction since it wasn't written in Hebrew. The Bible can be checked in the original. The BOM can't.

There's a good chance you're right, but it is an assumption.

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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

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JLHPROF wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:27 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:06 pm 3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus [Yeshua], calling him their Lord [YHWH] and their God [Elohim].
Without the original text from the plates you have no way of knowing for sure when YHWH vs Elohim were used, or even if the original text used the Hebrew distinction since it wasn't written in Hebrew. The Bible can be checked in the original. The BOM can't.

There's a good chance you're right, but it is an assumption.
Mosiah (LDS 15:1-5) (RLDS 8:28-32)
AA 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God [Elohim]
AB Himself shall come down among the children of men,
AC and shall REDEEM His people.
-BA 2 And because He dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God,
-BB and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father,
-BC being the Father and the Son—
-BA 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God;
-BB and the Son, because of the flesh;
-BC thus becoming the Father and Son—
--CA 4 And they are one God [Elohim],
--CB yea, the very Eternal Father [singular / modalism https://seekingyhwh.org/lectures-on-faith/5th/ ]
--CC of heaven and of earth.
-BA 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit,
-BB or the Son to the Father,
-BC being one God [Elohim],
AA suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation,
AB but suffereth Himself to be mocked, and scourged,
AC and cast out, and disowned by His people.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by blitzinstripes »

Honestly, such confusion and speculation is largely why I have shifted nearly all of my worship/ devotion to CHRIST. The scriptures are clear enough in regard to the fact that all who accept Christ become his sons and daughters and inherit the earth with Him.

I pray to Jesus Christ, as did the Nephites as documented in 3 Nephi. I will kneel before him as commanded to in the scriptures, and I seek Him and follow Him. Someday, maybe He presents me to His Father. We know very little about (Elohim) in comparison to Christ. I know that if I focus all my efforts on worshipping and following Christ, that He can lead me to the Father. So I have enough work to do in that regard, so I try not to worry too much about things beyond Jesus Christ at this point.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by MikeMaillet »

I take it for granted that there is one Saviour only for all of mankind or Adam, which is many. The One who paid the price descended below all and atoned for our sins. Some call Him Christ and some call Him Jehovah and some... The Israelites do not have a different Saviour than the rest of us.

Mike

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:36 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:27 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:06 pm 3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus [Yeshua], calling him their Lord [YHWH] and their God [Elohim].
Without the original text from the plates you have no way of knowing for sure when YHWH vs Elohim were used, or even if the original text used the Hebrew distinction since it wasn't written in Hebrew. The Bible can be checked in the original. The BOM can't.

There's a good chance you're right, but it is an assumption.
Mosiah (LDS 15:1-5) (RLDS 8:28-32)
AA 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God [Elohim]
AB Himself shall come down among the children of men,
AC and shall REDEEM His people.
-BA 2 And because He dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God,
-BB and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father,
-BC being the Father and the Son—
-BA 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God;
-BB and the Son, because of the flesh;
-BC thus becoming the Father and Son—
--CA 4 And they are one God [Elohim],
--CB yea, the very Eternal Father [singular / modalism https://seekingyhwh.org/lectures-on-faith/5th/ ]
--CC of heaven and of earth.
-BA 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit,
-BB or the Son to the Father,
-BC being one God [Elohim],
AA suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation,
AB but suffereth Himself to be mocked, and scourged,
AC and cast out, and disowned by His people.
I just ran across that scripture a week ago (I'd read it many times before, but always with my 'mormon goggles' on) and it jumped out at me that it sounds like there's only one God the father and that he clothed himself in flesh, therefore Jesus = real God, both Father and Son. Is this scripture crucial evidence that the ldscorp''s definition of Godhead is wrong?

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TheChristian
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by TheChristian »

There is no confusion if one simply accepts that Jesus of Nazerath was God manifest in the flesh...........

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me. Amen.

These are but a few of the statements of the God of Israel, in said statements he declares to future generations who He is, His titles and how He is to be identified...........

Only one person in all of history fits said statements, titles and can be identified in such........

Jesus of Nazerath.........
He is the Lord.
He is the King of Israel,
He is the Redeemer,
He is the Saviour,
He is the first and the Last.

Yes Jesus of Nazerath, God manifest in the flesh , be as little children and accept such in simple faith, then the scriptures shall unfold themselves before your very eyes.........
Last edited by TheChristian on January 23rd, 2023, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

TheChristian wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:26 pm There is no confusion is one simply accepts that Jesus of Nazerath was God manifest in the flesh...........

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me. Amen.

These are but a few of the statements of the God of Israel, in said statements he declares to future generations who He is, His titles and how He is to be identified...........

Only one person in all of history fits said statements, titles and can be identified in such........

Jesus of Nazerath.........
He is the Lord.
He is the King of Israel,
He is the Redeemer,
He is the Saviour,
He is the first and the Last.

Yes Jesus of Nazerath, God manifest in the flesh , be as little children and accept such in simple faith, then the scriptures shall unfold themselves before your very eyes.........
I'm coming more and more to this position.

However, that does not mean that the being involved in demanding infants be put to the sword and virgin girls for himself is the same guy as the creator of the universe and all things in it, anymore than someone is justified in claiming 'hey Baal had a lot of power, so that must be God, same guy as Jesus'. That's the conflict I see, the fruits don't match with real God.

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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by nightlight »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 4:35 pm
TheChristian wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:26 pm There is no confusion is one simply accepts that Jesus of Nazerath was God manifest in the flesh...........

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me. Amen.

These are but a few of the statements of the God of Israel, in said statements he declares to future generations who He is, His titles and how He is to be identified...........

Only one person in all of history fits said statements, titles and can be identified in such........

Jesus of Nazerath.........
He is the Lord.
He is the King of Israel,
He is the Redeemer,
He is the Saviour,
He is the first and the Last.

Yes Jesus of Nazerath, God manifest in the flesh , be as little children and accept such in simple faith, then the scriptures shall unfold themselves before your very eyes.........
I'm coming more and more to this position.

However, that does not mean that the being involved in demanding infants be put to the sword and virgin girls for himself is the same guy as the creator of the universe and all things in it, anymore than someone is justified in claiming 'hey Baal had a lot of power, so that must be God, same guy as Jesus'. That's the conflict I see, the fruits don't match with real God.
For the sake of consistency

The God of the New Testament destroys cities. And the thing about cities is they have kids in them

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

nightlight wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 4:49 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 4:35 pm
TheChristian wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:26 pm There is no confusion is one simply accepts that Jesus of Nazerath was God manifest in the flesh...........

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me. Amen.

These are but a few of the statements of the God of Israel, in said statements he declares to future generations who He is, His titles and how He is to be identified...........

Only one person in all of history fits said statements, titles and can be identified in such........

Jesus of Nazerath.........
He is the Lord.
He is the King of Israel,
He is the Redeemer,
He is the Saviour,
He is the first and the Last.

Yes Jesus of Nazerath, God manifest in the flesh , be as little children and accept such in simple faith, then the scriptures shall unfold themselves before your very eyes.........
I'm coming more and more to this position.

However, that does not mean that the being involved in demanding infants be put to the sword and virgin girls for himself is the same guy as the creator of the universe and all things in it, anymore than someone is justified in claiming 'hey Baal had a lot of power, so that must be God, same guy as Jesus'. That's the conflict I see, the fruits don't match with real God.
For the sake of consistency

The God of the New Testament destroys cities. And the thing about cities is they have kids in them
That's a different thing than God instructing some men to go and commit mass murder. God doing it himself isn't what I'm having questions about.

Peeps
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by Peeps »

[/b]
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:15 pm Growing up lds, I always heard that Jesus was the same guy as Yahweh, the God of the old testament. I want to ask where we get this idea from? Although I put very little stock in D&C and the Pearl, still I'm looking for any and all scriptural references that might support this.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the actions of the 'god' of the old testament who seems to me to be lacking in omnipotence, omnicience, basic goodness, kindness, and seems extremely bloodthirsty and evil in many instances, yet somehow this same guy turns into Jesus? It seems weird.

I should also delineate between the God in early Genesis that spoke to Adam and Eve etc (who seems like actual God to me) and the one that was instructing the extermination and genocide right down to hoisting infants on swords and demanding virgin girls for himself. They don't seem like the same guy at all.

I have heard the theory floated that the god in most of the old testament is the same as the 'god' of this world, ie Satan; which I thought was an interesting possibility, though I don't see much to support it.

Anyway I'm hoping someone can give some idea why lds culture presumes Yahweh and Jesus are the same guy.
This is the whole point of Jesus Christ's mission:

Image

LDS culture teaches that giving up our first estate to gain a flesh body is an opportunity, and it is part of the plan of happiness. I believe that is exactly what got us doomed and needing a Savior. If you go back and read the Book of Abraham chapter 3 with fresh eyes, using scripture to prove scripture, it will tell you the "one LIKE unto God" in verse 24 is probably Lucifer, because in Isaiah 14, Lucifer is the one who wanted to be LIKE the Most High. Isaiah 14:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be LIKE the most High.


Not keeping your first estate is a very bad thing according to the Bible.

Jude 1
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting *chains* under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Chains according to Strong's concordance are "ligaments of the body," which are to be considered an impediment.

We may not be the fallen angels of Genesis chapter 6 which the verse is referring to (who took the daughters of men to wife and beget the giants that caused the flood), but we surely did not keep our first estate either, otherwise, we would not now be facing death, and we would still be in Heaven with the Father. We are like the youngest son in the prodigal son parable, Jesus Christ was like the "fatted calf," and the fallen angels are the jealous older son. So continuing the preexistence story of the Grand Council of the Heavens in Abraham 3. From one of my previous posts:
I have also been mulling over and ruminating on some things, some things you have sparked, like the those things written in the Pearl of Great Price, particularly the Book of Abraham, and Ezekiel 28 where it says satan/Lucifer walked in the midst of the stones of fire on the Holy mountain of God. I believe those stones of fire were us, when we were the "gnolaum," and that is where, and when, we were deceived into taking flesh bodies.

I was ready to dismiss everything in the Pearl of Great Price, but then I decided to examine it more closely, because of our discussions on other threads, and knowing that even Lucifer will give a person "enlightenment" --but it is like the partial truth he told Eve, for she did become wise, but she did surely die.

The Genesis chapter 1, or Abraham chapter 4 gods/ or the "elohim," are IMO, the rebellious third host of heaven led by the drag "queen of heaven," Lucifer/satan. Abraham chapter 3 tells us how in the preexistence we forfeited our first estate because Lucifer, described as the "one like unto God" in verse 24 (Isaiah 14 says Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High), said we would get glory added unto us forever and ever by choosing to go for a second estate in verse 26.

But this was the trap that got us taken into captivity to the lowest parts of the earth, as it is says in Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. And Jude 1:15 has a stern warning for those who leave their first estate, those everlasting "chains" under darkness are the "ligaments of the body" according to Strong's concordance, and to be considered an impediment of what we are supposed to be. I guess it is like we have been paralyzed from the neck down, but we don't know it. We are supposed to be beings of light, yet we cast a shadow. We all fell before Adam and Eve, they just went into mortality first. Psalm 104:4 says this about God, Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire, but we wanted to have flesh bodies which cannot dwell in the presence of the Father.

Fortunately, in verse 27 of Abraham 3, the one "like the Son of Man" was sent to pay for this mistake of ours. The decision to take on a flesh body was the original forbidden fruit. D&C section 130 is wrong about the Father having a body of flesh and bones, He is a Spirit. Lectures on Faith 5.2 says the Father is a Personage of Spirit. The Book of Mormon says He is the "Great Spirit." Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, the Father is a Spirit, and is looking for those to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

The rebellious third is one of the reasons that the number 33 is revered by the occult. These elohim are the "adam/gods" of the LDS, though this knowledge has been "hidden" from the plebs-LDS, because that is what the very word occult means, hidden. The "enlightenment" of Lucifer being "god" is only for the higher levels like Master Masons/Master Mahons, though this is being exposed more and more everyday, because it is almost at the end of this world. And Daniel 12:4 says: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

These elohim are who the LORD God of Israel was at war with during the Exodus. They created themselves, and they were gods to themselves. Reading about origins of the Egyptian pantheon shows this. Joseph Smith was so obsessed with Egypt, that he purchased Egyptian papyri from a traveling salesman. The "translations" were likely from some copies of Masonic sacred texts, which have been kept by the bloodline/hybrid families, who trace their origins back to Cain, who married into them when he went to the land of Nod...
I believe the "blood thirsty" aspect of the OT God was because He was ensuring Jesus Christ could be born in a pure bloodline that would qualify Him to be our kinsman Redeemer (No Nephilim bloodlines allowed!), as described in Leviticus 25:

47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:

48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:

49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.

50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.


We had been sold into slavery to sin since the fall of Adam and Eve, it is already sown into our flesh to desire to do evil at birth. Atonement for sin done in flesh bodies must be paid in blood according to the carnal commandments. Leviticus 17:

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

I found this from:

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-promised ... rfect-plan

..Left to his own devices, man would quickly destroy himself. But for the grace of God, long ago man would have been removed from the face of the earth because of his sin. Yet mankind has been preserved, awaiting the salvation promised long ago in the Garden of Eden, when God said to the serpent,

I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel” (Genesis 3:15).

Satan successfully brought a curse upon Adam and Eve and all of their offspring. Nevertheless, God promised that from the seed of the woman would come One who would bring about man’s deliverance and Satan’s destruction. That “seed” was our Lord Jesus Christ. His death on Calvary defeated Satan and fully accomplished the salvation of all who would believe in the Savior...

With Seth came new hope, but in only two chapters away (Genesis 6) mankind is already in a mess. Things became so bad that God determined to wipe out both mankind and the animal kingdom with a flood:

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. And the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD (Genesis 6:1-8)....


These Nephilim tribes were listed in the Bible as being many clans. From: https://jaminbradley.com/2019/07/03/the ... the-bible/

...Likewise, we’re also surprised when our eyes are opened to see the giants present after the flood. This is clearly seen in Numbers 13 when Moses sends spies into the land of Canaan and they return with a report of having seen giants.

…”The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.” (Numbers 13:32-33)

What’s interesting to note here is that the Nephilim that these spies saw went by another name: the sons of Anak—known elsewhere in the Bible as the Anakim. This is important to note, because we typically have nothing in mind when we read the names of people groups in the Bible and so we don’t stop and imagine them in detail. But here we learn that whenever we see the word Nephilim or Anakim in the Bible, we should now be thinking of the descendants of the giants of Genesis 6.

Yes, the giants have now been around long enough to take on different names. In this case, a giant named Anak has gained enough attention that his giant descendants are now a people group known as the Anakim. But other names for the giants will come about as well, because different nations had different names for the Nephilim. For example, Deuteronomy 2 tells us that there are other groups of giants who are known by other nations as the Emim, the Rephaim, and the Zamzummim.

We also see the Amorites described by the prophet Amos as having the height of cedars, showing us that some of the Amorites were also known as giants. However, we know that not all the Amorites were giants because of the fuller picture the Bible paints of them. In a similar way, the Bible also seems to relate to us that a few giants were dispersed throughout the human clans of the Amalekites, Hittites, Jebusites, Canaanites, and Philistines.

And so now our list of giant clans has grown to the Nephilim, the Anakim, the Emim, the Rephaim, and the Zamzummim. We also expect to see a few of the giants living amidst the Amorites, the Amalekites, the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Canaanites, and the Philistines. They are everywhere.

It’s strange that we should miss all of this, because these giants are standing right in Israel’s way; for they inhabit the land that God promised that His people would move into. And perhaps with this in mind, we might speculate that God specifically sent Israel to this land so that they would finish the job of what the flood was partially meant to do: Get rid of the giants. In fact, a very close reading of the Bible seems to relay that if there were no giants in specific parts of the promised land, then the inhabitants could be simply driven out and not necessarily killed in war. Yes, believe it or not, it seems possible that the the holy wars :oops: 3 of the Old Testament were set in place to eradicate the rebellious giants....


Anak was probably the root source for the Annunaki, that the History channel's "Ancient Aliens" talks about.

Image

Stephen gave a compelling testimony in Acts 6-7 against the ruling class of Jews whilst he was being stoned:

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.

12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,

13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:

14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

Chapter 7:

...31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

47 But Solomon built him an house.

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


So that is an eye opening testimony of Stephen, that they had went had went wrong way back in Exodus while Moses was still leading them. In Exodus 23, it says:

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images


This angel seems to be the one that was very strict, and was not gonna play games with a stiff neck people.

In Isaiah God also testifies against the people's form of worship in chapter 1:

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.


16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

So something is up with that. But keeping in mind that Satan/Lucifer was, and is, always trying to usurp and replace Jesus Christ even until the very end by bringing the Antichrist to power, so perhaps the Yahweh thing was another attempt of him projecting like he always does, making himself be the hero and Jesus Christ the zero, when it is really the other way around. Like twisting the Garden of Eden story into a scenario of an evil, tyrannical God that was keeping Adam and Eve as prisoners, until he came along as a Prometheus type, and set them at "liberty"... Yahweh is supposedly a name of diety Canaanite diety too.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Yahweh is NOT Jesus?

Post by SJR3t2 »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:22 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:36 pm
JLHPROF wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:27 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:06 pm 3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus [Yeshua], calling him their Lord [YHWH] and their God [Elohim].
Without the original text from the plates you have no way of knowing for sure when YHWH vs Elohim were used, or even if the original text used the Hebrew distinction since it wasn't written in Hebrew. The Bible can be checked in the original. The BOM can't.

There's a good chance you're right, but it is an assumption.
Mosiah (LDS 15:1-5) (RLDS 8:28-32)
AA 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God [Elohim]
AB Himself shall come down among the children of men,
AC and shall REDEEM His people.
-BA 2 And because He dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God,
-BB and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father,
-BC being the Father and the Son—
-BA 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God;
-BB and the Son, because of the flesh;
-BC thus becoming the Father and Son—
--CA 4 And they are one God [Elohim],
--CB yea, the very Eternal Father [singular / modalism https://seekingyhwh.org/lectures-on-faith/5th/ ]
--CC of heaven and of earth.
-BA 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit,
-BB or the Son to the Father,
-BC being one God [Elohim],
AA suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation,
AB but suffereth Himself to be mocked, and scourged,
AC and cast out, and disowned by His people.
I just ran across that scripture a week ago (I'd read it many times before, but always with my 'mormon goggles' on) and it jumped out at me that it sounds like there's only one God the father and that he clothed himself in flesh, therefore Jesus = real God, both Father and Son. Is this scripture crucial evidence that the ldscorp''s definition of Godhead is wrong?
It is, there are many others.

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