Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:35 am I said he followed Phil in the past, stop twisting my words. I really would block you here if I could.
"Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups." —SJR3t2

I'm pretty sure that's present tense. I digress. Have a good day.
BTW, you can block me... learn how to use the forum tools.

Also, you can just not respond... you can ignore my posts.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Robin Hood »

TheDuke wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 8:31 pm I watched both films and pondered them both for some time. I have a few reactions. First, I do believe the the WR and JT versions, especially JT's later in life were in error, embellished or just wrong. I see what Justin was saying. I never bought into his position of the inside job and the spirit never said to me to walk away from the mob as killers.

I do feel that he should be able to tell his story and not get exxed. That seems like unrighteous dominion to me. Anyone has a right to say what the believe, especially when the formal narrative is obviously not correct. After the second film, I am even less likely to believe it was an inside job.

Personally, I feel that likely JT and WR were likely scared, peed their pants, hid, and possibly even let the mob in. Perhaps even argued with Joseph and Hyrum about bailing out and stuff, like Peter did on the night Jesus was taken. Then later, decided it would be better not to talk about their cowardice. Justin even brings up a couple statements that support this likelihood.

BTW in part one, Justin points out that it was the 1870's before JT mentioned the watch thing and how it was hit and threw him back. He said someone proposed that to him. Likely the took that as an omen and made it his memory.

In the end, I thank Justin for his work. I don't buy his scenarios but don't feel a need to refute either. I don't buy the official narrative nor feel the church has a right to cover things up or ex people that bring things like this up or the other thread a while back of the British fellow exed for questioning RMN fiery airplane survival or his being personally attacked in Africa to kill him, as these do seem to be either lies or embellishments, but certainly not accurate tellings. I do hope more documents are found in the future to put more of this to rest.

Also, sad that it started again to turn to polygamy thread, would be nice to keep it on a "who killed JS" thread.
Well said.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:38 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:35 am I said he followed Phil in the past, stop twisting my words. I really would block you here if I could.
"Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups." —SJR3t2

I'm pretty sure that's present tense. I digress. Have a good day.
BTW, you can block me... learn how to use the forum tools.

Also, you can just not respond... you can ignore my posts.
Phil Davis is past tense. And FYI there is no blocking viewtopic.php?p=1344924#p1344924 Perhaps you need to learn the forum tools more.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 1:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:38 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:35 am I said he followed Phil in the past, stop twisting my words. I really would block you here if I could.
"Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups." —SJR3t2

I'm pretty sure that's present tense. I digress. Have a good day.
BTW, you can block me... learn how to use the forum tools.

Also, you can just not respond... you can ignore my posts.
Phil Davis is past tense. And FYI there is no blocking viewtopic.php?p=1344924#p1344924 Perhaps you need to learn the forum tools more.
You couldn't help yourself, could you... there's something in your psyche forcing you to respond to my comments. :)

And yes, you can flag my profile as "foe." It's the closest thing to blocking you'll get on the forum.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 8:50 am

And it seems like you've had a little Phil-time. I sat on one zoom call with him (Phil) for like two hours and that was enough for me.

Only two hours? So he was probably just barely a third of a way into the opening prayer then. :)

One thing the Phil crowd enjoys is a good long long loooong meeting. :)

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cab
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by cab »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:18 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:15 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 am

It is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.

Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.

Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.

Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
“Horn dog”…. That just cracked me up.

BTW, Justin is not affiliated with the Phil Davis DoC group. He has started a Facebook page to discuss doctrine, but to my knowledge he does not claim to be part of a group, unless you consider a person striving to learn the gospel of Christ to be a group.
BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
While I'm not a member of the DoC group, I know a few people who are (nice people, as an aside) and tangentially my understanding is that Justin had separated himself from them quite a long time before the Phil Davis controversy split erupted. I'm probably rumor--mongering by jumping in with my secondhand info, but nevertheless I thought I'd chime in. :)

Is there a discussion anywhere on the Phil Davis group split? It’s fascinating how some of his closest friends now claim he might be a son of perdition.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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me keeping an eye on this thread
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Shawn Henry
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Shawn Henry »

cab wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:40 pm
Is there a discussion anywhere on the Phil Davis group split? It’s fascinating how some of his closest friends now claim he might be a son of perdition.
In this thread we talk about some of it. There's also a Jacob Isbell YouTube video of it.
viewtopic.php?t=66165

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:59 pm The split happened a long time before the name change. It came mostly as a result of the decision to ordain women to the priesthood back in 1984.
The name change occured in 2001.
Oh, okay. I'm obviously out of the loop in regards to them. I knew there was a split earlier, but I thought you were saying there was another split when they decided to change the name.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

OldGlory wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:11 pm Where does it say that? And that sounds really sucky for the wives. And what’s the point? So BY can have infinite wives?
I would venture to bet that he has zero wives right now.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 21st, 2023, 3:37 pm Let's be honest, when someone gets exxed there's an automatic stigma of 'hey you must be some kind of pedo adulterer'. Tape recording is the only safety a member has to protect himself from ldscorp slander.
I totally agree.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
I can ask around, but last I heard, he was aware of us, but wasn't interested in being baptized by one of us.

And even if he did join, it's such an informal group, I don't know if he'd even consider himself part of an actual officially organized group.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:45 pm being exxed after asking to prayerfully consult with the Lord is just crazy to me.
This is why I believe his stake prez was commanded ("asked") to ex him by a member of the 15 men at the top.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

Mindfields wrote: January 24th, 2023, 7:03 amWilliam Clayton was the king of pseudohistory.
He absolutely was!

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:16 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
I can ask around, but last I heard, he was aware of us, but wasn't interested in being baptized by one of us.

And even if he did join, it's such an informal group, I don't know if he'd even consider himself part of an actual officially organized group.
Snufferites say they are of YHWH, but they don't do things YHWH's ways, such as having a formal authority structure. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:43 pm Snufferites say they are of YHWH, but they don't do things YHWH's ways, such as having a formal authority structure. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
Jesus did not organize a formal authority structure. That came later when men wanted to control others.

I believe DS has talked face-to-face with Jesus. I believe he did what God wanted when he went on the 10-lecture circuit.

I was disillusioned right after 9/11 when Hinckley failed to recognize that it was a sign of this country's wickedness, and a sign that we were close to destruction. I begged God to send us a man (prophet, like in the scriptures) to warn us to repent before we were destroyed. When God didn't say anything, I eventually forgot about it. Also, I expected that man to be one of the 1st Presidency of the LDS Church.

I won't go into a long story about how I began reading Denver's blog, but one day I was reading a post (I forget which one, now, but this was ~ 2010) and I suddenly recognized who was speaking, and it wasn't Denver; it was Jesus. As soon as I recognized that, God brought my prayer to my mind and told me, using words, "This is the man you prayed for."

I was shocked. I did not expect this. And every time some forum or other would begin to cause doubt, I'd go back to the blog he had at the time, and could feel the Spirit reaffirming the original message. Not emotions. Not warm fuzzies. I'm talking information. I'm talking reaffirming knowledge.

My point in all this is to say that when people bring up this or that reason why something about Denver is wrong or apostate or evil or satanic or whatever, I lend more credence to God's individual message to me than I do to anyone's study of scriptures.

You can believe however you wish; I have no desire to take that from you or to try to convince you that you are wrong and I am right (that goes for anyone and everyone I interact with here). I just want you to know that your arguments about how you view God's religion isn't going to change what I know God told me.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:00 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 2:43 pm Snufferites say they are of YHWH, but they don't do things YHWH's ways, such as having a formal authority structure. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
Jesus did not organize a formal authority structure. That came later when men wanted to control others.

I believe DS has talked face-to-face with Jesus. I believe he did what God wanted when he went on the 10-lecture circuit.

I was disillusioned right after 9/11 when Hinckley failed to recognize that it was a sign of this country's wickedness, and a sign that we were close to destruction. I begged God to send us a man (prophet, like in the scriptures) to warn us to repent before we were destroyed. When God didn't say anything, I eventually forgot about it. Also, I expected that man to be one of the 1st Presidency of the LDS Church.

I won't go into a long story about how I began reading Denver's blog, but one day I was reading a post (I forget which one, now, but this was ~ 2010) and I suddenly recognized who was speaking, and it wasn't Denver; it was Jesus. As soon as I recognized that, God brought my prayer to my mind and told me, using words, "This is the man you prayed for."

I was shocked. I did not expect this. And every time some forum or other would begin to cause doubt, I'd go back to the blog he had at the time, and could feel the Spirit reaffirming the original message. Not emotions. Not warm fuzzies. I'm talking information. I'm talking reaffirming knowledge.

My point in all this is to say that when people bring up this or that reason why something about Denver is wrong or apostate or evil or satanic or whatever, I lend more credence to God's individual message to me than I do to anyone's study of scriptures.

You can believe however you wish; I have no desire to take that from you or to try to convince you that you are wrong and I am right (that goes for anyone and everyone I interact with here). I just want you to know that your arguments about how you view God's religion isn't going to change what I know God told me.
James wanted control? Wow, that is what the snufferites teach. I'm so glad I didn't become one.

I believe DS knows he is deceiving people. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/

As I looked into DS when I first woke up because some of my new friends were into him. After research I was not impressed and saw how he contradicted the BoM, and made people dependent upon him.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:40 pm James wanted control? Wow, that is what the snufferites teach. I'm so glad I didn't become one.
James did not begin an official Church (TM). That started long after the apostles died.

And what is this weird "is that what the snufferites teach"? You sound as if we are an official group with a detailed list of what we must and must not believe.

All one needs to do is be baptized by someone who has LDS authority pre-April 2013 or received authority from someone who received authority before then who uses the wording that includes "having authority" after they're sure God has authorized them. End of story.
  • They don't have to report their baptism (and if they do, all that is asked is their name, the baptizer's name, and the date).
  • They don't have to take the covenant that was given in Boise, Idaho in 2017.
  • They don't have to swear fealty to Denver, nor claim to believe anything he says.
  • They can stay in their present religion.
  • They can accept whatever scriptures they believe in.
  • They can meet with whoever they choose to meet with.
  • They can go whole hog and join with people having conferences and so on, or they can keep to themselves, making their own groups who ignore Denver.

After research I was not impressed and saw how he contradicted the BoM, and made people dependent upon him.
And you are free to believe that.
I, personally, see no contradiction with the BofM.
And, in the 10 lectures, he said over and over again ad nauseum (so much so that at one lecture, one of my friends complained that he was saying it too much), Don't rely on me. - Don't trust any man, including me. - Don't rely on me when I'm asking you not to. - If you're trying to get to know me, you're a damned fool.
What many of the people may have decided about him being the only one to listen to doesn't change the fact that he warned against that.

I took the 10 lectures to heart. It was difficult because of my training to rely on "the prophet", but I did my level best to rely on God only. Not Denver, even though I fully believe he was a messenger sent from God to warn us to repent before we get wiped out (and we will get wiped out).

People will do what they will do. They will say what they will say. As for me, Jesus has always been number one to me, and when he showed me the error of my ways, I did my best to do what he wanted me to do. I still am pursuing that path. I don't focus on Denver. I see no need to do that. I don't care about Denver. I follow Jesus, not Denver, even though I am lumped with "snufferites".

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 25th, 2023, 4:14 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 25th, 2023, 3:40 pm James wanted control? Wow, that is what the snufferites teach. I'm so glad I didn't become one.
James did not begin an official Church (TM). That started long after the apostles died.

And what is this weird "is that what the snufferites teach"? You sound as if we are an official group with a detailed list of what we must and must not believe.

All one needs to do is be baptized by someone who has LDS authority pre-April 2013 or received authority from someone who received authority before then who uses the wording that includes "having authority" after they're sure God has authorized them. End of story.
  • They don't have to report their baptism (and if they do, all that is asked is their name, the baptizer's name, and the date).
  • They don't have to take the covenant that was given in Boise, Idaho in 2017.
  • They don't have to swear fealty to Denver, nor claim to believe anything he says.
  • They can stay in their present religion.
  • They can accept whatever scriptures they believe in.
  • They can meet with whoever they choose to meet with.
  • They can go whole hog and join with people having conferences and so on, or they can keep to themselves, making their own groups who ignore Denver.

After research I was not impressed and saw how he contradicted the BoM, and made people dependent upon him.
And you are free to believe that.
I, personally, see no contradiction with the BofM.
And, in the 10 lectures, he said over and over again ad nauseum (so much so that at one lecture, one of my friends complained that he was saying it too much), Don't rely on me. - Don't trust any man, including me. - Don't rely on me when I'm asking you not to. - If you're trying to get to know me, you're a damned fool.
What many of the people may have decided about him being the only one to listen to doesn't change the fact that he warned against that.

I took the 10 lectures to heart. It was difficult because of my training to rely on "the prophet", but I did my level best to rely on God only. Not Denver, even though I fully believe he was a messenger sent from God to warn us to repent before we get wiped out (and we will get wiped out).

People will do what they will do. They will say what they will say. As for me, Jesus has always been number one to me, and when he showed me the error of my ways, I did my best to do what he wanted me to do. I still am pursuing that path. I don't focus on Denver. I see no need to do that. I don't care about Denver. I follow Jesus, not Denver, even though I am lumped with "snufferites".
James was the head bishop just as JS was. James made the decission in Acts 15 not the apostles, because he was the head of the church, not the apostles as taught in the D&C and JS also taught.

Pre-paril 2013 because DS who got his authority from them, took it away from them. No High priesthood comes from YHWH own voice not from another man. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/priesthood/

He contradicts the BoM much including on Baptism Order, I don't mention him in the post, but it goes against what he teaches on the subject. https://seekingyhwh.org/2016/10/07/baptisms-order/

I used to meet with Snufferites, they made fun of me multiple times because I wanted to read scriptures over reading his blog. https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/04/30/my-t ... -movement/

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:11 pm I used to meet with Snufferites, they made fun of me multiple times because I wanted to read scriptures over reading his blog. https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/04/30/my-t ... -movement/
That's very unfortunate. I have not had the bad luck to come across people like that. I'm sorry you experienced this.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:16 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:11 pm I used to meet with Snufferites, they made fun of me multiple times because I wanted to read scriptures over reading his blog. https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/04/30/my-t ... -movement/
That's very unfortunate. I have not had the bad luck to come across people like that. I'm sorry you experienced this.
Many others have had the same experience.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:20 pm Many others have had the same experience.
Interesting. I've been in meetings/groups where something Denver said was studied, but no one I know would ever make fun of anyone wanting to read/study the scriptures during a meeting.

I'm actually quite surprised that many people have had this experience, as I've been part of this from the beginning and have been to many meetings and conferences.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Silver Pie wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:25 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:20 pm Many others have had the same experience.
Interesting. I've been in meetings/groups where something Denver said was studied, but no one I know would ever make fun of anyone wanting to read/study the scriptures during a meeting.

I'm actually quite surprised that many people have had this experience, as I've been part of this from the beginning and have been to many meetings and conferences.
It happened to me multiple times which is why I stopped meeting with them in person. And it's happened to many others.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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I fellowshipped with a Denver group for a year and all we did was read the scriptures (Bible, mainly) and discuss Denver's teachings and Joseph's teachings and Book of Mormon concepts tied to the Bible in between verses. Life is really busy for me and I don't feel 100% converted to Denver so I felt insincere and short on time and drifted away, but I never encountered a desire to just read Denver's blog from his followers that I was fellowshipping with. I'm sure you experienced what you described and I'm sure others have too, but anyone intelligent and objective (which you seem to be) has to be fair and acknowledge that every religious organization will have people who have had poor experiences that don't reflect on the religious group and/or their beliefs as a whole.

Joseph said the Saints needed modern scripture for them at that point in time and that relying on the New Testament wasn't enough. Like it or not, believe it or not, if you fellowship with a Denver group, you're fellowshipping with people who believe an angel of the Lord appeared to Denver and told him after his LDS baptism that on the first day of the third month, nine years from that point, his ministry would begin and he needed to prepare. Those people view him as prophetic, even if critics (and some fans) would say he's having his cake and eating it too as he tells people he has entertained angels and produced Thus Saith The Lord scripture and offered visions but would prefer to be viewed as a John the Baptist-esque servant rather than going by the prophet title. That crowd would want to feast on his words because that crowd believes that even if every single blog post and statement from him isn't necessarily scripture, they feel it's coming from someone in a way comparable to Joseph Smith providing current day commentary to the saints back in those days.

I completely understand not believing him. I completely understand viewing him as blasphemous. But complaining that being around a Snuffer fellowship and that they all wanted to just read his blog posts (and while that happens, anyone being reasonable could say not all fellowships and all meetings are like that) would be like me fellowshipping with Brighamites and complaining that they wanted to read the wealth of writings from Brigham over studying the Book of Mormon and I didn't appreciate that. If I were in that situation, what should I have expected?

Image

I completely respect that you find Denver to be a fraud and deceptive. I just know that if I go to an LDS church, the talks and the lessons will be based on general conference talks. We will read from and be taught by general conference talks, rather than a deep dive into the scriptures. I know that if I go to a Christian group, I'm not going to be with people eager to sit down and read from the Book of Mormon. I don't think your experience of Denver followers is a wide-spread practice (that all Remnant followers only want to read from his blogs when they gather and they laugh when people want to read the scriptures) but I believe your account and I believe others have had similar experiences, but I find it insane that someone would be among that crowd and be upset that a large focus is placed on his writings. It's like, yeah, no kidding. What do you want? What did you expect? I say that as kindly as I can.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:40 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:30 pm
oneClimbs wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:34 pm I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing.
That is a good point.
As noted in the film, the mob may have been coming to take them away to hang them. Certain people may have wanted them dead instead.

ADD: it was also noted that very few “mob” members went up the stairs. And it sounds like they were very young and may have even been given alcohol to souse them up a bit (bolster their courage) to go into the building.
They wanted to “kill” hang them or just hang them in some other non-lethal way? Not sure I understand (serious question even though it sounds like sarcasm).

The seeming absence of gunshots in the room is worth noting. Unless there were repairs immediately after that hid some of the bullet hole signs. Joseph and Hyrum had several shots in them that hit home, but all the shots would have been close proximity anyway.

Perhaps the lack of shots was due to the “mob” knowing the other men were in there and not wanting to slay them unintentionally.

Taylor did get shot several times though and that seems like a huge risk to take rather than just wait outside and let the mob do their thing.

I don’t think Justin’s theory is impossible, I’d just like to see what else arises from his findings.

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