Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:17 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 am
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
It is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.

Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.

Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.

Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
It's funny, because before reading your full post, just after reading the first line, I was immediately thinking: Brigham Young reminds me so much of King Noah. And then you provide a link to a dissertation of the parallels :) Nowadays it's shocking to me that it isn't instantly and easily apparent to everyone from a restoration background.
To further the BY connection.

Talk some on how the Holy Spirit/Ghost is the word of YHWH. Talk about my free program to search standard works. Get into some details of how Zeniff is a type of Joseph Smith as I bring up in my King Brigham post. Moroni 7 and Deuteronomy 28/Torah. Talk about the rock and the sand from the Sermon on the Mount/at the Temple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFzCUW ... n&index=13

Ammon is RLDS / CoC
Mysteries are not going to save you. What will help you get saved is BECOMING like Yeshua. Looked into scriptures on the mustard seed. Talked about Faith. Baptism is nessary only when an authorized servant of YHWH can do perform it. Unit under YHWH’s ancient and eternal ways. Looked into symbolic meanings of mountain. Bringing out a spiritual meaning of Matthew 17:20. The gospel is about BECOMING. Justification is like engagement, Sanctification is like the marriage. When you look at the scriptures the wrong way there are lots of contradictions, but when you look at them the right way they support each other. Limhites lost authority to baptize in one generation. The High Priesthood is given by the voice of YHWH. If going to YHWH’s alter had steps, which it doesn’t, our nakedness would be uncovered, as happens with the new age / occult. Ammon in Mosiah (LDS 21) (RLDS 9) represents the RLDS / CoC church while Noah represents the LDS / Brighamite church. Baptism is a WITNESS of a covenant to keep all of YHWH’s commandment that has already been made. YHWH’s system has a court for the church and one for the state. When churches are actually from YHWH they join together as one, instead of creating a court of churches. Zion will have leaders and teachers. Animal sacrifices are coming back. Mosiah (LDS 18:13) is using imagery from Torah and Moses having authority. Since we are justified by the law / Torah and sanctified by the law / Torah, so without the law / Torah those two things can not happen. Talk about what is a broken heart and contrite spirit and how it relates to Tzitzit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5yQWG1 ... n&index=44

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
Agreed. But you called him a liar. He didn’t lie.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:33 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
Agreed. But you called him a liar. He didn’t lie.
He did he claims he was never part of a group, we was. I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:33 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
Agreed. But you called him a liar. He didn’t lie.
He did he claims he was never part of a group, we was. I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
He was familiar to them at one point. I doubt the Snuffer claims, but I don’t know him that well. He’s never mentioned Denver in any of his online posts that I’ve seen.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by oneClimbs »

I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing. IF that was a plan, it seems like a foolish plan. Why would you put your co-conspirators in the line of fire and risk them getting shot (which John did).

I think Justin's ballistic research is interesting and he's on to something there. John's watch was not hit by a bullet, the official narrative has some holes, but that doesn't mean it's a conspiracy. It could be, but I think his research opens up several new doors for exploration but Justin has really doubled down on his one theory.

In my opinion, he would have had more people on his side and more success to focus on what is provable and get more eyeballs to look on it versus jumping straight to accusations.

The comparison I like to make is how Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth are focused on the data and claim that the NIST story of what happened is flawed, but they seem to stop short of naming who they think is responsible. Their approach is that "something is wrong here, let's figure out what really happened." Whereas Justin's approach is "something is wrong here, and here's what I think happened and who did it."

Justin could be right on with his theory, but I haven't seen anything from him that nails Willard and John. I'm not sure you'd ever find that evidence if it was a secret combination. That's the whole thing about secret combinations, they're secret, they don't seem to write down the truth so it can be discovered later.

I'm not opposed to the theory that Joseph was "put down" by those who were his friends, even if Brigham Young and others were involved. It wouldn't surprise me but serious accusations like that require evidence which may be hard, if not impossible to find. But the Lord has a way of exposing secret combinations in ways we cannot imagine so we'll see what happens.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:15 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 am
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
It is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.

Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.

Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.

Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
“Horn dog”…. That just cracked me up.

BTW, Justin is not affiliated with the Phil Davis DoC group. He has started a Facebook page to discuss doctrine, but to my knowledge he does not claim to be part of a group, unless you consider a person striving to learn the gospel of Christ to be a group.
BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
While I'm not a member of the DoC group, I know a few people who are (nice people, as an aside) and tangentially my understanding is that Justin had separated himself from them quite a long time before the Phil Davis controversy split erupted. I'm probably rumor--mongering by jumping in with my secondhand info, but nevertheless I thought I'd chime in. :)

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Why would Taylor & Richards murder when the mob wanted to?
Maybe to frame the mob so nobody was found guilty.

I admire the diligence in seeking & defending truth, especially against opposition and with great cost… in presenting these. More than anything, it exposes How seeking truth is PUNISHED & thus the lds corporation is not as godly as it tries to portray itself.

A couple points that need attention:
1) Joseph Smith has a long list of criminal charges… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_ ... ice_system
That’s not to suggest others harming & killing him was ok, only that it’s good to look at ALL the facts.

2) His-story is always difficult to base things on. But right now, there is plenty of damnable evidence (covering up child sexual abuse, financial corruption, medical coercion etc). Still, I suppose the same moral of the story: don’t trust in men - only trust & worship God/truth/Goodness.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by TheDuke »

I watched both films and pondered them both for some time. I have a few reactions. First, I do believe the the WR and JT versions, especially JT's later in life were in error, embellished or just wrong. I see what Justin was saying. I never bought into his position of the inside job and the spirit never said to me to walk away from the mob as killers.

I do feel that he should be able to tell his story and not get exxed. That seems like unrighteous dominion to me. Anyone has a right to say what the believe, especially when the formal narrative is obviously not correct. After the second film, I am even less likely to believe it was an inside job.

Personally, I feel that likely JT and WR were likely scared, peed their pants, hid, and possibly even let the mob in. Perhaps even argued with Joseph and Hyrum about bailing out and stuff, like Peter did on the night Jesus was taken. Then later, decided it would be better not to talk about their cowardice. Justin even brings up a couple statements that support this likelihood.

BTW in part one, Justin points out that it was the 1870's before JT mentioned the watch thing and how it was hit and threw him back. He said someone proposed that to him. Likely the took that as an omen and made it his memory.

In the end, I thank Justin for his work. I don't buy his scenarios but don't feel a need to refute either. I don't buy the official narrative nor feel the church has a right to cover things up or ex people that bring things like this up or the other thread a while back of the British fellow exed for questioning RMN fiery airplane survival or his being personally attacked in Africa to kill him, as these do seem to be either lies or embellishments, but certainly not accurate tellings. I do hope more documents are found in the future to put more of this to rest.

Also, sad that it started again to turn to polygamy thread, would be nice to keep it on a "who killed JS" thread.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by endlessQuestions »

Randomly came across this tonight. Does it match Justin's findings, or contradict them?

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... -Smith.pdf

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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oneClimbs wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:34 pm I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing.
That is a good point.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

BuriedTartaria wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:30 pm
oneClimbs wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:34 pm I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing.
That is a good point.
As noted in the film, the mob may have been coming to take them away to hang them. Certain people may have wanted them dead instead.

ADD: it was also noted that very few “mob” members went up the stairs. And it sounds like they were very young and may have even been given alcohol to souse them up a bit (bolster their courage) to go into the building.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:26 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:33 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
Agreed. But you called him a liar. He didn’t lie.
He did he claims he was never part of a group, we was. I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
He was familiar to them at one point. I doubt the Snuffer claims, but I don’t know him that well. He’s never mentioned Denver in any of his online posts that I’ve seen.
He was a full on Phil Davis believer. Believe as you want. FYI it was not YHWH who told him to sacrifice his car ...

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:18 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:15 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 am

It is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.

Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.

Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.

Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
“Horn dog”…. That just cracked me up.

BTW, Justin is not affiliated with the Phil Davis DoC group. He has started a Facebook page to discuss doctrine, but to my knowledge he does not claim to be part of a group, unless you consider a person striving to learn the gospel of Christ to be a group.
BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
While I'm not a member of the DoC group, I know a few people who are (nice people, as an aside) and tangentially my understanding is that Justin had separated himself from them quite a long time before the Phil Davis controversy split erupted. I'm probably rumor--mongering by jumping in with my secondhand info, but nevertheless I thought I'd chime in. :)
Because the latest one, but Justin did leave because of one dealing with a friend of his, him and Phil Davis. I've had a different experience with them.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:05 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:18 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:15 am

“Horn dog”…. That just cracked me up.

BTW, Justin is not affiliated with the Phil Davis DoC group. He has started a Facebook page to discuss doctrine, but to my knowledge he does not claim to be part of a group, unless you consider a person striving to learn the gospel of Christ to be a group.
BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
While I'm not a member of the DoC group, I know a few people who are (nice people, as an aside) and tangentially my understanding is that Justin had separated himself from them quite a long time before the Phil Davis controversy split erupted. I'm probably rumor--mongering by jumping in with my secondhand info, but nevertheless I thought I'd chime in. :)
Because the latest one, but Justin did leave because of one dealing with a friend of his, him and Phil Davis. I've had a different experience with them.
I've met Phil a few times now and don't have anything against the guy personally, nor do I care about his personal life controversies (or lack thereof, for those on the other side). I just find I disagree with his conclusions and theology. And while we had a long discussion about scripture once, and I freely admit I'm no scriptorian, I think I may have frustrated him a bit because I completely disagree with some of his interpretations of scripture. In some cases the verses he would reference said nothing at all close to his interpretation (either being about a different subject altogether, imo, or in some cases the words seemed to say the exact opposite thing of what he would infer). But I have nothing personal against the guy, he seemed nice enough to me.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

TheDuke wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 8:31 pm I watched both films and pondered them both for some time. I have a few reactions. First, I do believe the the WR and JT versions, especially JT's later in life were in error, embellished or just wrong. I see what Justin was saying. I never bought into his position of the inside job and the spirit never said to me to walk away from the mob as killers.

I do feel that he should be able to tell his story and not get exxed. That seems like unrighteous dominion to me. Anyone has a right to say what the believe, especially when the formal narrative is obviously not correct. After the second film, I am even less likely to believe it was an inside job.

Personally, I feel that likely JT and WR were likely scared, peed their pants, hid, and possibly even let the mob in. Perhaps even argued with Joseph and Hyrum about bailing out and stuff, like Peter did on the night Jesus was taken. Then later, decided it would be better not to talk about their cowardice. Justin even brings up a couple statements that support this likelihood.

BTW in part one, Justin points out that it was the 1870's before JT mentioned the watch thing and how it was hit and threw him back. He said someone proposed that to him. Likely the took that as an omen and made it his memory.

In the end, I thank Justin for his work. I don't buy his scenarios but don't feel a need to refute either. I don't buy the official narrative nor feel the church has a right to cover things up or ex people that bring things like this up or the other thread a while back of the British fellow exed for questioning RMN fiery airplane survival or his being personally attacked in Africa to kill him, as these do seem to be either lies or embellishments, but certainly not accurate tellings. I do hope more documents are found in the future to put more of this to rest.

Also, sad that it started again to turn to polygamy thread, would be nice to keep it on a "who killed JS" thread.
Well said. Duke is one of those forum members I might disagree with a lot, but I still have great respect for (I'd put Luke in that category too) and I always enjoy hearing their viewpoint. This seems like a level and fair honest take, and although I do subscribe to the notion that there's enough evidence to cast Taylor and Willard more likely as villains than cowards who made up tales after the fact to cover for themselves, I think that's a reasonable alternate explanation.

The thing that hit me hardest about this whole thing was the excommunication. There's no indication Justin did anything evil at any point, and being exxed after asking to prayerfully consult with the Lord is just crazy to me. We might say it's just the work of one rogue stake president, well ok maybe, but I'd argue this is emblematic of a larger problem with the current lds church.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by cab »

Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:43 pm
Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:42 pm The very end, after the credits is worth hearing, too. It's a prelude, I think, to the next part, which is Joseph not practicing polygamy (the "fact" being invented by BY and cronies).
Luke will love that part. :)
Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣

As long as there’s no evidence of tampering after sitting in the LDS catacombs for over a hundred years

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:03 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:26 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:33 pm

Agreed. But you called him a liar. He didn’t lie.
He did he claims he was never part of a group, we was. I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
He was familiar to them at one point. I doubt the Snuffer claims, but I don’t know him that well. He’s never mentioned Denver in any of his online posts that I’ve seen.
He was a full on Phil Davis believer. Believe as you want. FYI it was not YHWH who told him to sacrifice his car ...
I honestly don’t think you know Justin much at all given what you’ve said.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Mindfields »

cab wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 11:17 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:43 pm
Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:42 pm The very end, after the credits is worth hearing, too. It's a prelude, I think, to the next part, which is Joseph not practicing polygamy (the "fact" being invented by BY and cronies).
Luke will love that part. :)
Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣

As long as there’s no evidence of tampering after sitting in the LDS catacombs for over a hundred years
William Clayton was the king of pseudohistory.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:40 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:05 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:18 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:53 am

BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.
While I'm not a member of the DoC group, I know a few people who are (nice people, as an aside) and tangentially my understanding is that Justin had separated himself from them quite a long time before the Phil Davis controversy split erupted. I'm probably rumor--mongering by jumping in with my secondhand info, but nevertheless I thought I'd chime in. :)
Because the latest one, but Justin did leave because of one dealing with a friend of his, him and Phil Davis. I've had a different experience with them.
I've met Phil a few times now and don't have anything against the guy personally, nor do I care about his personal life controversies (or lack thereof, for those on the other side). I just find I disagree with his conclusions and theology. And while we had a long discussion about scripture once, and I freely admit I'm no scriptorian, I think I may have frustrated him a bit because I completely disagree with some of his interpretations of scripture. In some cases the verses he would reference said nothing at all close to his interpretation (either being about a different subject altogether, imo, or in some cases the words seemed to say the exact opposite thing of what he would infer). But I have nothing personal against the guy, he seemed nice enough to me.
I've been around Phil a few times. And heard him teach things in person that are contradictory to scriptures such as telling two old women who didn't have anyone to bless the sacrament for them that they can pray to have angels bless it for them, rather than saying I'll do it for them as I told them.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 4:22 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:03 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:26 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm

He did he claims he was never part of a group, we was. I don't know this one first hand, I have heard he is joining himself with the Snufferites. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/denver-snuffer/
He was familiar to them at one point. I doubt the Snuffer claims, but I don’t know him that well. He’s never mentioned Denver in any of his online posts that I’ve seen.
He was a full on Phil Davis believer. Believe as you want. FYI it was not YHWH who told him to sacrifice his car ...
I honestly don’t think you know Justin much at all given what you’ve said.
Instead of addressing what I brought up you make it about me, hmm, .................

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 8:13 am Instead of addressing what I brought up you make it about me, hmm, .................
Well... you did call him a liar for a claim which was blatantly false. What else am I supposed to do? I guess we could talk about the weather. :)

Maybe you know him better than I do. I have no idea what car you are talking about. (I'm guessing this is about Justin... don't know.) Regardless, for you to claim that someone making a personal sacrifice and that it was not what the person felt it was, seems a bit presumptuous to me.

And it seems like you've had a little Phil-time. I sat on one zoom call with him (Phil) for like two hours and that was enough for me.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:12 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:56 pm It’s not about “Joseph was lying and BY telling the truth”. Such a silly little slogan from the polygamy-haters.
I missed this gem. As you've openly admitted, you're ok with Joseph lying. So of course this doesn't bother you.

I guess Joseph just missed this one: "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Oopsie! He was condemning the practice right up until he was murdered. To believe the church narrative you have to believe Joseph was a damned liar. A hypocrite in the extreme.
You're not using the "higher and holier" adjustment factor.

Lying is wrong. Lying for the Lord is the higher and holier way.
Adultery is wrong. Abundant adultery with 15 yr olds and other men's wives is higher and holier.
Killing is wrong. Killing someone to guarantee their repentance is higher and holier.
Secret signs, names, and handshakes are of the devil, but in the temple they're higher and holier.
Works done in secrecy are of the devil, but "sacred" works done in secrecy are higher and holier.

This is not a comprehensive list. All are free to add to it.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 8:50 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 8:13 am Instead of addressing what I brought up you make it about me, hmm, .................
Well... you did call him a liar for a claim which was blatantly false. What else am I supposed to do? I guess we could talk about the weather. :)

Maybe you know him better than I do. I have no idea what car you are talking about. (I'm guessing this is about Justin... don't know.) Regardless, for you to claim that someone making a personal sacrifice and that it was not what the person felt it was, seems a bit presumptuous to me.

And it seems like you've had a little Phil-time. I sat on one zoom call with him (Phil) for like two hours and that was enough for me.
He has specifically lied about not following Phil Davis, that makes him a liar, and he has not repented of such lie. Hmm, you don't know what car I'm talking about, seems you don't know him as well as you claim.

My phil time was not by choice, I went to a presentation that Val was holding and he was there.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:12 am He has specifically lied about not following Phil Davis, that makes him a liar, and he has not repented of such lie. Hmm, you don't know what car I'm talking about, seems you don't know him as well as you claim.

My phil time was not by choice, I went to a presentation that Val was holding and he was there.
You made the claim that he "is" following Phil. That was false. He obviously is not if you've read anything from him lately. We're splitting hairs here I guess.

And how has he not repented of it?

And I fully agree that you may very well know Justin better than I do. Sounds like there may be some inside scout about a car scandal that I'm not aware of. :) I just assumed that since you were so certain that Justin "was" part of Phil's group, you'd also know that he is now NOT part of that group.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:18 am
SJR3t2 wrote: January 24th, 2023, 10:12 am He has specifically lied about not following Phil Davis, that makes him a liar, and he has not repented of such lie. Hmm, you don't know what car I'm talking about, seems you don't know him as well as you claim.

My phil time was not by choice, I went to a presentation that Val was holding and he was there.
You made the claim that he "is" following Phil. That was false. He obviously is not if you've read anything from him lately. We're splitting hairs here I guess.

And how has he not repented of it?

And I fully agree that you may very well know Justin better than I do. Sounds like there may be some inside scout about a car scandal that I'm not aware of. :) I just assumed that since you were so certain that Justin "was" part of Phil's group, you'd also know that he is now NOT part of that group.
I said he followed Phil in the past, stop twisting my words. I really would block you here if I could.

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