Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pm Ok, I finished the film. I was expecting something quite different. I was expecting Part 3. But, even with that expectation, I did appreciate the additional clarification on a few things, as well as a few additional insights. It wasn’t groundbreaking, and I didn’t expect it to be.

The interview w/ his SP was actually quite insightful. They asked to go home and pray about the decision to release the film or not and the SP exxed them. This is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.

The Wilderness part, while different, was a good way to invite people to turn to the Lord when obvious questions arise about either the historical narrative or doctrinal discrepancies. I’ve been “in the wilderness” for a long time. I can relate to his experience. I know people who have left the faith, because their faith was in man. Members have hung upon the coattails of leadership for far too long. And they have been conditioned to do that since BY.
Yes the audio tape was absolutely striking, and I was actually really moved by that.

Also just tonight in reading scriptures with the family, we read 3 Nephi 18, where the Savior makes clear over and over and over again that we are not to ban people from our sacrament meetings. I had heard Justin in an interview before mention that he and his wife were not even allowed to go pray to God for an answer when they were confronted with the 'recant and squash the movie or else' choice, but I had assumed he might be exaggerating. To hear it on audio, absolute confirmation, was heartbreaking and monstrous imo.

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Lineman1012
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 8:46 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pmThis is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.
I believe this, also. Making the Church (TM) look bad is a huge crime in the Church's eyes.

That was why Denver Snuffer got ex'd. He wrote a book about Church history using original documents. His stake prez was directed to ex him, dragged his heels too long, was replaced, next one dragged his heels a little, but finally obeyed the directive - which I think was from Nelson, but it could have been Oaks.


There is no honesty. The 15 men, speaking generally as a whole, could not pass their own temple recommend questions - except for the part about sustaining and obeying themselves. There seems to be only vanity, pride, concern for what the world thinks of them, and seeking for power and riches.
The book that Denver got ex’d for is called “Passing The Heavenly Gift”. It’s about how the early church failed to complete the Nauvoo temple in the time frame allowed by the Lord. Which means the restoration of the gospel was not completed.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Lineman1012 wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:06 pm The book that Denver got ex’d for is called “Passing The Heavenly Gift”. It’s about how the early church failed to complete the Nauvoo temple in the time frame allowed by the Lord. Which means the restoration of the gospel was not completed.
Yes, that's it.

It also mentions some of the things that went on after BY brought people west. There's at least one story during that part of the book I wish I had never read.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 8:46 pm
That was why Denver Snuffer got ex'd. He wrote a book about Church history using original documents. His stake prez was directed to ex him, dragged his heels too long, was replaced, next one dragged his heels a little, but finally obeyed the directive - which I think was from Nelson, but it could have been Oaks.

Yup. He's quoting directly from a post-Joseph LDS "prophet" where they stated they had never prophesied in their own journal. It's just quoting the words of LDS leaders. And he's exxed. That title, "Passing the Heavenly Gift" is inspired. That is a legendary title. That title says it all in one simple sentence. Regardless of where an unorthodox believer of the Book of Mormon is on the variety of interpretations one can have on Mormonism's history, I think if you're unorthodox, you likely have that view; an opportunity was given, by choices made by the group the opportunity was given to, that group forfeited the gift, and the opportunity passes on for others at another point in time; passing the heavenly gift.

Lineman1012 wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:06 pm The book that Denver got ex’d for is called “Passing The Heavenly Gift”. It’s about how the early church failed to complete the Nauvoo temple in the time frame allowed by the Lord. Which means the restoration of the gospel was not completed.
I'm a fan of Denver but I just want to point out that general view that the early church failed isn't a concept strictly unique to Denver's message.

I actually read a statement from like 1890something by RLDS members where they were hitting on the LDS church for the seemingly unfulfilled promises the Lord gave them if the temple had been built properly. The points raised by the RLDS church were very similar to Denver's, I'll see if I can find it.

And I understand that the RLDS church of today is far different from the RLDS church of the late 1800s.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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BuriedTartaria wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:35 pm And I understand that the RLDS church of today is far different from the RLDS church of the late 1800s.
They are now the Community of Christ. I understand they're downplaying the Book of Mormon, but don't know that for a fact.

(Thanks for the correction, RH.)
Last edited by Silver Pie on January 21st, 2023, 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:45 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:35 pm And I understand that the RLDS church of today is far different from the RLDS church of the late 1800s.
They are now the Church of Christ iirc. I understand they're downplaying the Book of Mormon, but don't know that for a fact.
Yes, they have changed a lot. I don't want to put words in their mouth and paint them in a bad light (and I try to be fair and that way when discussing members of the BIG Mormon church, the LDS one), but it's clear they're just very different from how they used to be. I think some mildly successful (for what you could expect for a small break off from a small church) groups that capture the original RLDS views have broken off from the main RLDS church.

I mentioned reading a document (made around 1890) from prominent RLDS leaders that were critical of the revelations the Lord said the saints would get if they completed the Nauvoo temple; I found the document on this website, https://centerplace.org/, which hosts a number of RLDS resources. Unfortunately they remodeled the website and I can no longer find that document I was referring to. I brought up the RLDS having similar grievances about the early saints failing and being condemned not to imply Denver took the idea from others, just to show that it's a belief not strictly tied to Denver. So if you have an issue with him, I wouldn't toss out the idea because you feel it's something he came up with. I certainly think he teaches and explains that idea better than anyone, but the idea that the early saints were given commandments, were given a second chance, were given a third chance, and they failed, it's an idea you can find in a lot of unorthodox Book of Mormon believing circles.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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BuriedTartaria wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:51 pm Yes, they have changed a lot. I don't want to put words in their mouth and paint them in a bad light (and I try to be fair and that way when discussing members of the BIG Mormon church, the LDS one), but it's clear they're just very different from how they used to be. I think some mildly successful (for what you could expect for a small break off from a small church) groups that capture the original RLDS views have broken off from the main RLDS church.
I know they split a while back. I forget over what, but some wanted changes that others thought were wrong. I suppose every splinter group at the time of Joseph's death got splintered more and more over time. There may be a thousand groups who claim spiritual descent from Joseph.


. . . just to show that it's a belief not strictly tied to Denver. So if you have an issue with him
I understood that's why you said what you did.
In the past, others have pointed out some things they've discovered and have been accused of following Denver when they had no idea who he was. Their ideas either came from someone else or from their own studies.

I have no more of an issue with him than you do.

OldGlory
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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:)
Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 8:13 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm

Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
It would be a sure tell that I hadn't arrived in heaven, but the other hot spot. And given my fondness of sin, I guess I wouldn't be too shocked. :)
I love your sense of humor!!

I do have a question that no one has answered. If we were meant to practice polygamy, what happens to all the unmarried men? Since we have about a equal number of boys born as girls, and if we really are going to practice polygamy, then most girls will be in a polygamous marriage, which leaves a lot of extra boys who will not have anyone to marry. We already see this as a big issue in churches that practice polygamy. Most of the boys are thrown out. Honestly, I think the whole polygamy thing stinks. I think it was a way to do pedophilia and say it came from God.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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OldGlory wrote: January 20th, 2023, 10:26 pm
I do have a question that no one has answered. If we were meant to practice polygamy, what happens to all the unmarried men? Since we have about a equal number of boys born as girls, and if we really are going to practice polygamy, then most girls will be in a polygamous marriage, which leaves a lot of extra boys who will not have anyone to marry. We already see this as a big issue in churches that practice polygamy. Most of the boys are thrown out.
You answered your own question. They are kicked out at about 16 years old and not welcome to come back.

We took in one who was a good friend to our son. He shared our son's room and we told him he could live with us until he graduates as long as he goes to school and does well. After about a year, his mom left polygamy got herself stabilized and he was able to move back in with her. Great kid.

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Lineman1012
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:27 pm
Lineman1012 wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:06 pm The book that Denver got ex’d for is called “Passing The Heavenly Gift”. It’s about how the early church failed to complete the Nauvoo temple in the time frame allowed by the Lord. Which means the restoration of the gospel was not completed.
Yes, that's it.

It also mentions some of the things that went on after BY brought people west. There's at least hone story during that part of the book I wish I had never read.
It’s interesting that Denver gets ex’d for pointing out that the restoration was not 100% completed when it was just fulfilling prophecy. 1 Nephi 13:34 says that “much of my gospel” would be brought forth. Not all of it, just much of it.

34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:43 pm

Luke will love that part. :)
Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
Don't be too shocked if you get there and see God rolling his eyes that people bought into that one, while he's trying to straighten out a bunch of unfortunate displaced women in heaven who were scare programmed to believe they had to share their hubby to get there.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:28 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:57 pm This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.
I’ll ask you the same question, do you believe the accounts of WR and JT, and I mean all of what they said happened?
Eye witness accounts, especially in very fast moving stressful situations, are notoriously unreliable. In fact, if those accounts lined up perfectly with each other and with the evidence, that would be evidence of deliberate deception.

So to answer your question... no... and only an idiot would.

But I do believe the main thrust of their accounts; namely, that the mob killed the prophets. I also believe there were some Mormons in the mob. The Laws and/or the Higbees possibly. There were certainly a number of men in Nauvoo who had taken a blood oath to kill Joseph.

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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FoxMammaWisdom wrote: January 20th, 2023, 11:19 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm

Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
Don't be too shocked if you get there and see God rolling his eyes that people bought into that one, while he's trying to straighten out a bunch of unfortunate displaced women in heaven who were scare programmed to believe they had to share their hubby to get there.
As if people are going to be feeling fear, jealousy, etc. in Heaven.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Luke wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:58 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: January 20th, 2023, 11:19 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm

I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
Don't be too shocked if you get there and see God rolling his eyes that people bought into that one, while he's trying to straighten out a bunch of unfortunate displaced women in heaven who were scare programmed to believe they had to share their hubby to get there.
As if people are going to be feeling fear, jealousy, etc. in Heaven.
I used past tense ^^^^ - were, had, etc. I did not say those feelings would be happening in heaven. 🤷‍♀️
That's what's happening here. Heaven will end that 💩 and straighten things out.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:28 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:57 pm This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.
I’ll ask you the same question, do you believe the accounts of WR and JT, and I mean all of what they said happened?
Eye witness accounts, especially in very fast moving stressful situations, are notoriously unreliable. In fact, if those accounts lined up perfectly with each other and with the evidence, that would be evidence of deliberate deception.

So to answer your question... no... and only an idiot would.

But I do believe the main thrust of their accounts; namely, that the mob killed the prophets. I also believe there were some Mormons in the mob. The Laws and/or the Higbees possibly. There were certainly a number of men in Nauvoo who had taken a blood oath to kill Joseph.
haha, now you’ve gone to… “if they did align, it would have been deliberate deception…” really? That’s where you’re going? Defend, defend, defend. One of the great false traditions in this church is the idea that you can’t openly question a church leader without being disciplined and rejected. Unrighteous authority hates being questioned. Any humble servant would be transparent and open. This organization had become one of the least transparent churches on the planet. And by far one of the most prideful.

The ballistics vs the stories don’t match. And the stories themselves don’t align. Sure, it’s easy to add a piece here or there, but there are also direct contradictions between stories.

At minimum there should be heavy suspicion. I’ve tried to give the church and church leaders the benefit of the doubt for a long, long time… as I noted earlier, something is just off.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:03 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:28 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:57 pm This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.
I’ll ask you the same question, do you believe the accounts of WR and JT, and I mean all of what they said happened?
Eye witness accounts, especially in very fast moving stressful situations, are notoriously unreliable. In fact, if those accounts lined up perfectly with each other and with the evidence, that would be evidence of deliberate deception.

So to answer your question... no... and only an idiot would.

But I do believe the main thrust of their accounts; namely, that the mob killed the prophets. I also believe there were some Mormons in the mob. The Laws and/or the Higbees possibly. There were certainly a number of men in Nauvoo who had taken a blood oath to kill Joseph.
haha, now you’ve gone to… “if they did align, it would have been deliberate deception…” really? That’s where you’re going? Defend, defend, defend. One of the great false traditions in this church is the idea that you can’t openly question a church leader without being disciplined and rejected. Unrighteous authority hates being questioned. Any humble servant would be transparent and open. This organization had become one of the least transparent churches on the planet. And by far one of the most prideful.

The ballistics vs the stories don’t match. And the stories themselves don’t align. Sure, it’s easy to add a piece here or there, but there are also direct contradictions between stories.

At minimum there should be heavy suspicion. I’ve tried to give the church and church leaders the benefit of the doubt for a long, long time… as I noted earlier, something is just off.
And?
You've not said anything that isn't already known.
But just think about it for a moment. Bro. Griffin says that the kill shot to Hyrum came from Richards or Taylor (I forget which) in a tussle.
He then goes to an expert, presents his evidence, and the expert comes up with what he believes is a more likely scenario.
Does Bro. Griffin apply the same rigour to investigating this new possibility as he did to his own much more sensational theory? Did he go back and re-examine his theory?
Nope.
Just a load of emotionally based acting, with him trying to open the door of a locked Chapel, standing at the gates of a temple, interspersed with family photos. Wandering alone amongst conference goers wearing a message on a T-shirt.
And then all the wilderness stuff with him kicking dirt around and crying out to God etc. All acting in front of the camera. He even roped his kids in.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:58 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: January 20th, 2023, 11:19 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm

I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
Don't be too shocked if you get there and see God rolling his eyes that people bought into that one, while he's trying to straighten out a bunch of unfortunate displaced women in heaven who were scare programmed to believe they had to share their hubby to get there.
As if people are going to be feeling fear, jealousy, etc. in Heaven.
I believe we will most likely feel all range of emotions. Sorrow being one of them.

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BeNotDeceived
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Redemption

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:03 am
Luke wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:58 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: January 20th, 2023, 11:19 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
Don't be too shocked if you get there and see God rolling his eyes that people bought into that one, while he's trying to straighten out a bunch of unfortunate displaced women in heaven who were scare programmed to believe they had to share their hubby to get there.
As if people are going to be feeling fear, jealousy, etc. in Heaven.
I believe we will most likely feel all range of emotions. Sorrow being one of them.
Does it feel good to beat a dead horse. :?:

Why not look for something positive. :?:

All work and no play

Makes Jack

A dull boy.
Last edited by BeNotDeceived on January 21st, 2023, 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:00 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:03 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:01 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:28 pm

I’ll ask you the same question, do you believe the accounts of WR and JT, and I mean all of what they said happened?
Eye witness accounts, especially in very fast moving stressful situations, are notoriously unreliable. In fact, if those accounts lined up perfectly with each other and with the evidence, that would be evidence of deliberate deception.

So to answer your question... no... and only an idiot would.

But I do believe the main thrust of their accounts; namely, that the mob killed the prophets. I also believe there were some Mormons in the mob. The Laws and/or the Higbees possibly. There were certainly a number of men in Nauvoo who had taken a blood oath to kill Joseph.
haha, now you’ve gone to… “if they did align, it would have been deliberate deception…” really? That’s where you’re going? Defend, defend, defend. One of the great false traditions in this church is the idea that you can’t openly question a church leader without being disciplined and rejected. Unrighteous authority hates being questioned. Any humble servant would be transparent and open. This organization had become one of the least transparent churches on the planet. And by far one of the most prideful.

The ballistics vs the stories don’t match. And the stories themselves don’t align. Sure, it’s easy to add a piece here or there, but there are also direct contradictions between stories.

At minimum there should be heavy suspicion. I’ve tried to give the church and church leaders the benefit of the doubt for a long, long time… as I noted earlier, something is just off.
And?
You've not said anything that isn't already known.
But just think about it for a moment. Bro. Griffin says that the kill shot to Hyrum came from Richards or Taylor (I forget which) in a tussle.
He then goes to an expert, presents his evidence, and the expert comes up with what he believes is a more likely scenario.
Does Bro. Griffin apply the same rigour to investigating this new possibility as he did to his own much more sensational theory? Did he go back and re-examine his theory?
Nope.
Just a load of emotionally based acting, with him trying to open the door of a locked Chapel, standing at the gates of a temple, interspersed with family photos. Wandering alone amongst conference goers wearing a message on a T-shirt.
And then all the wilderness stuff with him kicking dirt around and crying out to God etc. All acting in front of the camera. He even roped his kids in.
Yes, Justin did apply the same testing, he just didn’t show it in the film. If you had paid attention, you would have realize he purchased an identical set of clothes to what Hyrum was wearing as well as a full toros ballistics dummy so that he could test the theory from the “expert.” It wasn’t shown in the film, but I assume he will in Part 3 or on his website. And, if you watched the film more closely, you’d also realize the expert didn’t say his theory was more plausible, just that it was another theory.

You’ve got to realize the heartache many of us feel when we realize that wolves lives among us. What modern church leaders did with the pandemic makes this event look like an 80’s ward roadshow performance in the cultural hall.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:08 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:00 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:03 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:01 am

Eye witness accounts, especially in very fast moving stressful situations, are notoriously unreliable. In fact, if those accounts lined up perfectly with each other and with the evidence, that would be evidence of deliberate deception.

So to answer your question... no... and only an idiot would.

But I do believe the main thrust of their accounts; namely, that the mob killed the prophets. I also believe there were some Mormons in the mob. The Laws and/or the Higbees possibly. There were certainly a number of men in Nauvoo who had taken a blood oath to kill Joseph.
haha, now you’ve gone to… “if they did align, it would have been deliberate deception…” really? That’s where you’re going? Defend, defend, defend. One of the great false traditions in this church is the idea that you can’t openly question a church leader without being disciplined and rejected. Unrighteous authority hates being questioned. Any humble servant would be transparent and open. This organization had become one of the least transparent churches on the planet. And by far one of the most prideful.

The ballistics vs the stories don’t match. And the stories themselves don’t align. Sure, it’s easy to add a piece here or there, but there are also direct contradictions between stories.

At minimum there should be heavy suspicion. I’ve tried to give the church and church leaders the benefit of the doubt for a long, long time… as I noted earlier, something is just off.
And?
You've not said anything that isn't already known.
But just think about it for a moment. Bro. Griffin says that the kill shot to Hyrum came from Richards or Taylor (I forget which) in a tussle.
He then goes to an expert, presents his evidence, and the expert comes up with what he believes is a more likely scenario.
Does Bro. Griffin apply the same rigour to investigating this new possibility as he did to his own much more sensational theory? Did he go back and re-examine his theory?
Nope.
Just a load of emotionally based acting, with him trying to open the door of a locked Chapel, standing at the gates of a temple, interspersed with family photos. Wandering alone amongst conference goers wearing a message on a T-shirt.
And then all the wilderness stuff with him kicking dirt around and crying out to God etc. All acting in front of the camera. He even roped his kids in.
Yes, Justin did apply the same testing, he just didn’t show it in the film. If you had paid attention, you would have realize he purchased an identical set of clothes to what Hyrum was wearing as well as a full toros ballistics dummy so that he could test the theory from the “expert.” It wasn’t shown in the film, but I assume he will in Part 3 or on his website. And, if you watched the film more closely, you’d also realize the expert didn’t say his theory was more plausible, just that it was another theory.

You’ve got to realize the heartache many of us feel when we realize that wolves lives among us. What modern church leaders did with the pandemic makes this event look like an 80’s ward roadshow performance in the cultural hall.
No, you're mistaken.
He said he was planning to test it, not that he had. He could have done so instead of all the "feel sorry for Justin the heroic martyr" stuff at the end.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:27 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:08 am
Robin Hood wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:00 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:03 am

haha, now you’ve gone to… “if they did align, it would have been deliberate deception…” really? That’s where you’re going? Defend, defend, defend. One of the great false traditions in this church is the idea that you can’t openly question a church leader without being disciplined and rejected. Unrighteous authority hates being questioned. Any humble servant would be transparent and open. This organization had become one of the least transparent churches on the planet. And by far one of the most prideful.

The ballistics vs the stories don’t match. And the stories themselves don’t align. Sure, it’s easy to add a piece here or there, but there are also direct contradictions between stories.

At minimum there should be heavy suspicion. I’ve tried to give the church and church leaders the benefit of the doubt for a long, long time… as I noted earlier, something is just off.
And?
You've not said anything that isn't already known.
But just think about it for a moment. Bro. Griffin says that the kill shot to Hyrum came from Richards or Taylor (I forget which) in a tussle.
He then goes to an expert, presents his evidence, and the expert comes up with what he believes is a more likely scenario.
Does Bro. Griffin apply the same rigour to investigating this new possibility as he did to his own much more sensational theory? Did he go back and re-examine his theory?
Nope.
Just a load of emotionally based acting, with him trying to open the door of a locked Chapel, standing at the gates of a temple, interspersed with family photos. Wandering alone amongst conference goers wearing a message on a T-shirt.
And then all the wilderness stuff with him kicking dirt around and crying out to God etc. All acting in front of the camera. He even roped his kids in.
Yes, Justin did apply the same testing, he just didn’t show it in the film. If you had paid attention, you would have realize he purchased an identical set of clothes to what Hyrum was wearing as well as a full toros ballistics dummy so that he could test the theory from the “expert.” It wasn’t shown in the film, but I assume he will in Part 3 or on his website. And, if you watched the film more closely, you’d also realize the expert didn’t say his theory was more plausible, just that it was another theory.

You’ve got to realize the heartache many of us feel when we realize that wolves lives among us. What modern church leaders did with the pandemic makes this event look like an 80’s ward roadshow performance in the cultural hall.
No, you're mistaken.
He said he was planning to test it, not that he had. He could have done so instead of all the "feel sorry for Justin the heroic martyr" stuff at the end.
I agree with you that he was planning to. That’s why I used the word “could.” I assume it will be shown later.

If all you got from the wilderness was “oh, feel sorry for…” you missed the point.

CuriousThinker
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by CuriousThinker »

Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:43 pm

Luke will love that part. :)
Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
A bit off topic, but doesn't that mean that there are WAY more righteous women than men? If we have all these men in heaven with plenty of wives then there is a huge gender disparity. Has anyone ever explained that? Or do you think only some have multiple wives but most in heaven will have only one?

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

CuriousThinker wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:42 am
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm

Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.
A bit off topic, but doesn't that mean that there are WAY more righteous women than men? If we have all these men in heaven with plenty of wives then there is a huge gender disparity. Has anyone ever explained that? Or do you think only some have multiple wives but most in heaven will have only one?
I’m sure Joseph would have approached that statement with the same quizzical look of “WT… are you talking about?” :)

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by BeNotDeceived »

CuriousThinker wrote: January 21st, 2023, 7:42 am
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Don’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.

A bit off topic, but doesn't that mean that there are WAY more righteous women than men? If we have all these men in heaven with plenty of wives then there is a huge gender disparity. Has anyone ever explained that? Or do you think only some have multiple wives but most in heaven will have only one?

Yea that’s what in means.

What else could it possibly mean. :?:

Light Seeker
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Light Seeker »

Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Agreed !

It’s amazing how long the saints have been lied to whether by omission or commission .

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