All Gods have many wives. I’m sure there’s non-Gods who live monogamously though. Everyone receives a due reward according to the law they prefer to live.CuriousThinker wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:42 amA bit off topic, but doesn't that mean that there are WAY more righteous women than men? If we have all these men in heaven with plenty of wives then there is a huge gender disparity. Has anyone ever explained that? Or do you think only some have multiple wives but most in heaven will have only one?Luke wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pmDon’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pmI’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Yep the directive came from Nelson. Monson was president of the church at the time and Nelson was head of the strengthening church members committee. He directed the new Stake pres. to excommunicate Snuffer. Those kind of things are supposed to be handled at a local level, not coming down from the q12.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:46 pmI believe this, also. Making the Church (TM) look bad is a huge crime in the Church's eyes.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pmThis is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.
That was why Denver Snuffer got ex'd. He wrote a book about Church history using original documents. His stake prez was directed to ex him, dragged his heels too long, was replaced, next one dragged his heels a little, but finally obeyed the directive - which I think was from Nelson, but it could have been Oaks.
There is no honesty. The 15 men, speaking generally as a whole, could not pass their own temple recommend questions - except for the part about sustaining and obeying themselves. There seems to be only vanity, pride, concern for what the world thinks of them, and seeking for power and riches.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
I think Bro. Griffin missed the point. He lost his way. He appears to have abandoned the terms of reference he went to such effort to emphasise in Part 1 (physical evidence, forensics, scientific method) in favour of feelings. His feelings.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:34 amI agree with you that he was planning to. That’s why I used the word “could.” I assume it will be shown later.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:27 amNo, you're mistaken.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:08 amYes, Justin did apply the same testing, he just didn’t show it in the film. If you had paid attention, you would have realize he purchased an identical set of clothes to what Hyrum was wearing as well as a full toros ballistics dummy so that he could test the theory from the “expert.” It wasn’t shown in the film, but I assume he will in Part 3 or on his website. And, if you watched the film more closely, you’d also realize the expert didn’t say his theory was more plausible, just that it was another theory.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:00 am
And?
You've not said anything that isn't already known.
But just think about it for a moment. Bro. Griffin says that the kill shot to Hyrum came from Richards or Taylor (I forget which) in a tussle.
He then goes to an expert, presents his evidence, and the expert comes up with what he believes is a more likely scenario.
Does Bro. Griffin apply the same rigour to investigating this new possibility as he did to his own much more sensational theory? Did he go back and re-examine his theory?
Nope.
Just a load of emotionally based acting, with him trying to open the door of a locked Chapel, standing at the gates of a temple, interspersed with family photos. Wandering alone amongst conference goers wearing a message on a T-shirt.
And then all the wilderness stuff with him kicking dirt around and crying out to God etc. All acting in front of the camera. He even roped his kids in.
You’ve got to realize the heartache many of us feel when we realize that wolves lives among us. What modern church leaders did with the pandemic makes this event look like an 80’s ward roadshow performance in the cultural hall.
He said he was planning to test it, not that he had. He could have done so instead of all the "feel sorry for Justin the heroic martyr" stuff at the end.
If all you got from the wilderness was “oh, feel sorry for…” you missed the point.
The whole wilderness thing was utterly cringeworthy.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Actually, taping the disciplinary council and then presenting it publicly was not a good thing to do. He would be the first to be offended if the stake president publicly released details of the council.Redpilled Mormon wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:51 pmYes the audio tape was absolutely striking, and I was actually really moved by that.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pm Ok, I finished the film. I was expecting something quite different. I was expecting Part 3. But, even with that expectation, I did appreciate the additional clarification on a few things, as well as a few additional insights. It wasn’t groundbreaking, and I didn’t expect it to be.
The interview w/ his SP was actually quite insightful. They asked to go home and pray about the decision to release the film or not and the SP exxed them. This is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.
The Wilderness part, while different, was a good way to invite people to turn to the Lord when obvious questions arise about either the historical narrative or doctrinal discrepancies. I’ve been “in the wilderness” for a long time. I can relate to his experience. I know people who have left the faith, because their faith was in man. Members have hung upon the coattails of leadership for far too long. And they have been conditioned to do that since BY.
Also just tonight in reading scriptures with the family, we read 3 Nephi 18, where the Savior makes clear over and over and over again that we are not to ban people from our sacrament meetings. I had heard Justin in an interview before mention that he and his wife were not even allowed to go pray to God for an answer when they were confronted with the 'recant and squash the movie or else' choice, but I had assumed he might be exaggerating. To hear it on audio, absolute confirmation, was heartbreaking and monstrous imo.
I think Griffin has revealed his true colours. This is, or has become, all about him and not about the martyrdom.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Community of Christ.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:45 pmThey are now the Church of Christ iirc. I understand they're downplaying the Book of Mormon, but don't know that for a fact.BuriedTartaria wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:35 pm And I understand that the RLDS church of today is far different from the RLDS church of the late 1800s.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
I’m leaving the church for purely doctrinal reasons. I can’t follow the teachings of Christ and follow church precepts. And there’s the whole, let’s capitulate to and embrace Babylon thing, which is just more deviations from the gospel. So there’s that.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 10:06 amI think Bro. Griffin missed the point. He lost his way. He appears to have abandoned the terms of reference he went to such effort to emphasise in Part 1 (physical evidence, forensics, scientific method) in favour of feelings. His feelings.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:34 amI agree with you that he was planning to. That’s why I used the word “could.” I assume it will be shown later.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:27 amNo, you're mistaken.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:08 am
Yes, Justin did apply the same testing, he just didn’t show it in the film. If you had paid attention, you would have realize he purchased an identical set of clothes to what Hyrum was wearing as well as a full toros ballistics dummy so that he could test the theory from the “expert.” It wasn’t shown in the film, but I assume he will in Part 3 or on his website. And, if you watched the film more closely, you’d also realize the expert didn’t say his theory was more plausible, just that it was another theory.
You’ve got to realize the heartache many of us feel when we realize that wolves lives among us. What modern church leaders did with the pandemic makes this event look like an 80’s ward roadshow performance in the cultural hall.
He said he was planning to test it, not that he had. He could have done so instead of all the "feel sorry for Justin the heroic martyr" stuff at the end.
If all you got from the wilderness was “oh, feel sorry for…” you missed the point.
The whole wilderness thing was utterly cringeworthy.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 21st, 2023, 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
If only this Snuffer character would've claimed LGBTQ status beforehand, he'd still be in the church today; and conversely lauded for his bravery.Wolfwoman wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 8:59 amYep the directive came from Nelson. Monson was president of the church at the time and Nelson was head of the strengthening church members committee. He directed the new Stake pres. to excommunicate Snuffer. Those kind of things are supposed to be handled at a local level, not coming down from the q12.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:46 pmI believe this, also. Making the Church (TM) look bad is a huge crime in the Church's eyes.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pmThis is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.
That was why Denver Snuffer got ex'd. He wrote a book about Church history using original documents. His stake prez was directed to ex him, dragged his heels too long, was replaced, next one dragged his heels a little, but finally obeyed the directive - which I think was from Nelson, but it could have been Oaks.
There is no honesty. The 15 men, speaking generally as a whole, could not pass their own temple recommend questions - except for the part about sustaining and obeying themselves. There seems to be only vanity, pride, concern for what the world thinks of them, and seeking for power and riches.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Any church that bans anybody from attending its public meetings has rejected Jesus our Lord, no man , no matter what he has done should be prevented by any man or set of men to come unto the Lord.Redpilled Mormon wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:51 pmYes the audio tape was absolutely striking, and I was actually really moved by that.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pm Ok, I finished the film. I was expecting something quite different. I was expecting Part 3. But, even with that expectation, I did appreciate the additional clarification on a few things, as well as a few additional insights. It wasn’t groundbreaking, and I didn’t expect it to be.
The interview w/ his SP was actually quite insightful. They asked to go home and pray about the decision to release the film or not and the SP exxed them. This is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.
The Wilderness part, while different, was a good way to invite people to turn to the Lord when obvious questions arise about either the historical narrative or doctrinal discrepancies. I’ve been “in the wilderness” for a long time. I can relate to his experience. I know people who have left the faith, because their faith was in man. Members have hung upon the coattails of leadership for far too long. And they have been conditioned to do that since BY.
Also just tonight in reading scriptures with the family, we read 3 Nephi 18, where the Savior makes clear over and over and over again that we are not to ban people from our sacrament meetings. I had heard Justin in an interview before mention that he and his wife were not even allowed to go pray to God for an answer when they were confronted with the 'recant and squash the movie or else' choice, but I had assumed he might be exaggerating. To hear it on audio, absolute confirmation, was heartbreaking and monstrous imo.
When apon the cross our Lords arms were stretched out wide to the whole world, firmly nailed, a symbolic eternal wellcome to all that would come unto Him..........
Yes any Church that bans anybody sets our Lords suffering and sacrifice at nought, knows not Him and in the day our Lord returns what they have done to others shall be done to them.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Dang! That's right. Thanks for the correction. I'll see if I can go back and fix it.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 10:19 amCommunity of Christ.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:45 pmThey are now the Church of Christ iirc. I understand they're downplaying the Book of Mormon, but don't know that for a fact.BuriedTartaria wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:35 pm And I understand that the RLDS church of today is far different from the RLDS church of the late 1800s.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
I missed this gem. As you've openly admitted, you're ok with Joseph lying. So of course this doesn't bother you.
I guess Joseph just missed this one: "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Oopsie! He was condemning the practice right up until he was murdered. To believe the church narrative you have to believe Joseph was a damned liar. A hypocrite in the extreme.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
I have to agree with this.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 10:14 amActually, taping the disciplinary council and then presenting it publicly was not a good thing to do. He would be the first to be offended if the stake president publicly released details of the council.Redpilled Mormon wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:51 pmYes the audio tape was absolutely striking, and I was actually really moved by that.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 8:29 pm Ok, I finished the film. I was expecting something quite different. I was expecting Part 3. But, even with that expectation, I did appreciate the additional clarification on a few things, as well as a few additional insights. It wasn’t groundbreaking, and I didn’t expect it to be.
The interview w/ his SP was actually quite insightful. They asked to go home and pray about the decision to release the film or not and the SP exxed them. This is just my theory, but I think someone from SLC told them (the SP) what the outcome was going to be, come hell or high water. These people had to be removed. Any honest disciple of Christ would have allowed them the time to return home and pray.
The Wilderness part, while different, was a good way to invite people to turn to the Lord when obvious questions arise about either the historical narrative or doctrinal discrepancies. I’ve been “in the wilderness” for a long time. I can relate to his experience. I know people who have left the faith, because their faith was in man. Members have hung upon the coattails of leadership for far too long. And they have been conditioned to do that since BY.
Also just tonight in reading scriptures with the family, we read 3 Nephi 18, where the Savior makes clear over and over and over again that we are not to ban people from our sacrament meetings. I had heard Justin in an interview before mention that he and his wife were not even allowed to go pray to God for an answer when they were confronted with the 'recant and squash the movie or else' choice, but I had assumed he might be exaggerating. To hear it on audio, absolute confirmation, was heartbreaking and monstrous imo.
I think Griffin has revealed his true colours. This is, or has become, all about him and not about the martyrdom.
Overall, I think there’s nothing wrong with showing that the narrative doesn’t match reality.
But the compulsion to the present an alternate theory that insinuates that leaders of the Church murdered Joseph is unnecessary.
Then to defend it to the (spiritual) death, to me, shows what’s truly behind the whole thing.
It’s an unfortunate situation.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:03 amI believe we will most likely feel all range of emotions. Sorrow being one of them.Luke wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 2:58 amAs if people are going to be feeling fear, jealousy, etc. in Heaven.FoxMammaWisdom wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 11:19 pmDon't be too shocked if you get there and see God rolling his eyes that people bought into that one, while he's trying to straighten out a bunch of unfortunate displaced women in heaven who were scare programmed to believe they had to share their hubby to get there.
Agreed; we'll be the same people after death that we are now.
Alma 34:34 Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
There are actually a small amount of congregations of the RLDS left here and there. We attended a meeting a few months back in the Springfield, MO area.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 11:44 amDang! That's right. Thanks for the correction. I'll see if I can go back and fix it.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 10:19 amCommunity of Christ.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:45 pmThey are now the Church of Christ iirc. I understand they're downplaying the Book of Mormon, but don't know that for a fact.BuriedTartaria wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:35 pm And I understand that the RLDS church of today is far different from the RLDS church of the late 1800s.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
In my opinion, the victim of a Church Court has every right to record and share their experience. It is the Church who is judge and jury that don't have the moral right to share details of the session(s).
And recording it gives the facts, as someone already noted, where just talking about it may not give actual facts (human memory and emotions being what they are).
And recording it gives the facts, as someone already noted, where just talking about it may not give actual facts (human memory and emotions being what they are).
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
That's interesting. I'm not surprised to find that a few refused to go along with the name change.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
I agree. I think the members have every right to record the proceedings.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 12:40 pm In my opinion, the victim of a Church Court has every right to record and share their experience. It is the Church who is judge and jury that don't have the moral right to share details of the session(s).
And recording it gives the facts, as someone already noted, where just talking about it may not give actual facts (human memory and emotions being what they are).
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Restoration BranchesCaptainM wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 12:39 pmThere are actually a small amount of congregations of the RLDS left here and there. We attended a meeting a few months back in the Springfield, MO area.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 11:44 amDang! That's right. Thanks for the correction. I'll see if I can go back and fix it.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 10:19 amCommunity of Christ.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 9:45 pm
They are now the Church of Christ iirc. I understand they're downplaying the Book of Mormon, but don't know that for a fact.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
The split happened a long time before the name change. It came mostly as a result of the decision to ordain women to the priesthood back in 1984.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 12:40 pmThat's interesting. I'm not surprised to find that a few refused to go along with the name change.
The name change occured in 2001.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
I saw someone interviewed in a vid (maybe Mormon Book Reviews?) that alluded to a stat that RLDS lost almost 50% of their membership in one day when they decided to throw the Book of Mormon under the bus as not being scripture. I have no idea whether there's any truth to that though, it's just something I heard someone say.Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 12:59 pmThe split happened a long time before the name change. It came mostly as a result of the decision to ordain women to the priesthood back in 1984.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 12:40 pmThat's interesting. I'm not surprised to find that a few refused to go along with the name change.
The name change occured in 2001.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Let's be honest, when someone gets exxed there's an automatic stigma of 'hey you must be some kind of pedo adulterer'. Tape recording is the only safety a member has to protect himself from ldscorp slander.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 12:40 pm In my opinion, the victim of a Church Court has every right to record and share their experience. It is the Church who is judge and jury that don't have the moral right to share details of the session(s).
And recording it gives the facts, as someone already noted, where just talking about it may not give actual facts (human memory and emotions being what they are).
And it even proves its usefulness in my specific example. I heard Justin mention in an interview say that he and his wife weren't allowed to pray for guidance and I remember saying 'yeah no way, that's a total bs exaggeration; it can't have happened that way'
And then he brought receipts with that tape recording.
Therefore it was great wisdom on his part to record, likely inspired by God.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
Where does it say that? And that sounds really sucky for the wives. And what’s the point? So BY can have infinite wives?Luke wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 8:48 amAll Gods have many wives. I’m sure there’s non-Gods who live monogamously though. Everyone receives a due reward according to the law they prefer to live.CuriousThinker wrote: ↑January 21st, 2023, 7:42 amA bit off topic, but doesn't that mean that there are WAY more righteous women than men? If we have all these men in heaven with plenty of wives then there is a huge gender disparity. Has anyone ever explained that? Or do you think only some have multiple wives but most in heaven will have only one?Luke wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 6:52 pmDon’t be too shocked when you arrive in Heaven and see a God surrounded by all His Wives.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 20th, 2023, 6:51 pm
I’ll just stick with what Joseph taught while he was alive as well as the BoM…
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
It is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.
Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.
Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.
Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
“Horn dog”…. That just cracked me up.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 amIt is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.
Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.
Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.
Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
BTW, Justin is not affiliated with the Phil Davis DoC group. He has started a Facebook page to discuss doctrine, but to my knowledge he does not claim to be part of a group, unless you consider a person striving to learn the gospel of Christ to be a group.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
It's funny, because before reading your full post, just after reading the first line, I was immediately thinking: Brigham Young reminds me so much of King Noah. And then you provide a link to a dissertation of the parallels Nowadays it's shocking to me that it isn't instantly and easily apparent to everyone from a restoration background.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 amIt is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.
Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.
Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.
Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption
BTW, he used to be until Phil Davis of DoC group went after his friend.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑January 22nd, 2023, 9:15 am“Horn dog”…. That just cracked me up.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 22nd, 2023, 9:10 amIt is, so let go of the deception of Brigham Young.
Brigham Young was a tyrant and a horn dog and the worst thing that happened to the restoration, most if not all what people hate about what they think about the restoration came from his stone cold lustful heart.
Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/.
Also Justin's group are deceived on other things. And Justin lies about not being a member of groups.
BTW, Justin is not affiliated with the Phil Davis DoC group. He has started a Facebook page to discuss doctrine, but to my knowledge he does not claim to be part of a group, unless you consider a person striving to learn the gospel of Christ to be a group.