Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

oneClimbs wrote: January 26th, 2023, 11:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:40 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:30 pm
oneClimbs wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:34 pm I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing.
That is a good point.
As noted in the film, the mob may have been coming to take them away to hang them. Certain people may have wanted them dead instead.

ADD: it was also noted that very few “mob” members went up the stairs. And it sounds like they were very young and may have even been given alcohol to souse them up a bit (bolster their courage) to go into the building.
They wanted to “kill” hang them or just hang them in some other non-lethal way? Not sure I understand (serious question even though it sounds like sarcasm).

The seeming absence of gunshots in the room is worth noting. Unless there were repairs immediately after that hid some of the bullet hole signs. Joseph and Hyrum had several shots in them that hit home, but all the shots would have been close proximity anyway.

Perhaps the lack of shots was due to the “mob” knowing the other men were in there and not wanting to slay them unintentionally.

Taylor did get shot several times though and that seems like a huge risk to take rather than just wait outside and let the mob do their thing.

I don’t think Justin’s theory is impossible, I’d just like to see what else arises from his findings.
The interior of the room was remodeled at one point.

Based on your questions… I have to ask, did you watch the first documentary? Justin clearly presents how he feels the bullets were accounted for. JT’s wounds were from Joseph’s 6-shooter.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Interview between Jacob and Justin:

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by oneClimbs »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 27th, 2023, 5:31 am
oneClimbs wrote: January 26th, 2023, 11:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:40 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:30 pm

That is a good point.
As noted in the film, the mob may have been coming to take them away to hang them. Certain people may have wanted them dead instead.

ADD: it was also noted that very few “mob” members went up the stairs. And it sounds like they were very young and may have even been given alcohol to souse them up a bit (bolster their courage) to go into the building.
They wanted to “kill” hang them or just hang them in some other non-lethal way? Not sure I understand (serious question even though it sounds like sarcasm).

The seeming absence of gunshots in the room is worth noting. Unless there were repairs immediately after that hid some of the bullet hole signs. Joseph and Hyrum had several shots in them that hit home, but all the shots would have been close proximity anyway.

Perhaps the lack of shots was due to the “mob” knowing the other men were in there and not wanting to slay them unintentionally.

Taylor did get shot several times though and that seems like a huge risk to take rather than just wait outside and let the mob do their thing.

I don’t think Justin’s theory is impossible, I’d just like to see what else arises from his findings.
The interior of the room was remodeled at one point.

Based on your questions… I have to ask, did you watch the first documentary? Justin clearly presents how he feels the bullets were accounted for. JT’s wounds were from Joseph’s 6-shooter.
Yes, I've seen both. I remember that portion and that's certainly possible, however, it is also possible that someone could have aimed a pistol in the room from the door and shot him as well. John was down by the bed and the side of the room he was on had the best vantage point from the door. But again, it seems odd that if you knew people were coming up the stairs with guns and you were holding the door shut that you'd start shooting from the inside potentially causing those outside to begin retaliating and threaten your own life.

Could have been just dumb planning all around. But that's still the part that doesn't make sense to me. Willard and John having guns does make sense in that Joseph and Hyrum seem like they were pretty strong men and they likely couldn't be wrestled down easily.

But to Justin's theory, maybe the plan was for the mob to act as a distraction and not fire anything into the room so that they could assassinate Joseph and Hyrum from within. Taylor unexpectedly gets hit from Joseph in the process. But we know there's at least one hole in the door so someone fired into the room, but maybe that was an accident or in retaliation to the shots inside.

Again, not saying that Justin's theory is impossible or unlikely and should be completely dismissed but I also think it's wise to take the new evidence and see what other potential possibilities are now on the table as well.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

SJR3t2 wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:54 pm It happened to me multiple times which is why I stopped meeting with them in person. And it's happened to many others.
That's just weird, and I feel sad for you and anyone else who has experienced this.
I'm glad I don't know those people. If a fellowship mocked me for any reason I would never go back. Not even one more time.

The good thing about this movement is if you can find fellow believers who respect you, you can start your own fellowship and meet together. There's zero reason to hang out with people who are rude to you or who make you uncomfortable.

User avatar
Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

BuriedTartaria wrote: January 26th, 2023, 10:13 pm I'm sure you experienced what you described and I'm sure others have too, but anyone intelligent and objective (which you seem to be) has to be fair and acknowledge that every religious organization will have people who have had poor experiences that don't reflect on the religious group and/or their beliefs as a whole.
Exactly!


Like it or not, believe it or not, if you fellowship with a Denver group, you're fellowshipping with people who believe an angel of the Lord appeared to Denver and told him after his LDS baptism that on the first day of the third month, nine years from that point, his ministry would begin and he needed to prepare. . . . That crowd would want to feast on his words because that crowd believes that even if every single blog post and statement from him isn't necessarily scripture, they feel it's coming from someone in a way comparable to Joseph Smith providing current day commentary to the saints back in those days.
Very true.


I completely understand not believing him. I completely understand viewing him as blasphemous. But complaining that being around a Snuffer fellowship and that they all wanted to just read his blog posts (and while that happens, anyone being reasonable could say not all fellowships and all meetings are like that) would be like me fellowshipping with Brighamites and complaining that they wanted to read the wealth of writings from Brigham over studying the Book of Mormon and I didn't appreciate that. If I were in that situation, what should I have expected?
Said much better than I could have.


I completely respect that you find Denver to be a fraud and deceptive. I just know that if I go to an LDS church, the talks and the lessons will be based on general conference talks. We will read from and be taught by general conference talks, rather than a deep dive into the scriptures. I know that if I go to a Christian group, I'm not going to be with people eager to sit down and read from the Book of Mormon. I don't think your experience of Denver followers is a wide-spread practice (that all Remnant followers only want to read from his blogs when they gather and they laugh when people want to read the scriptures) but I believe your account and I believe others have had similar experiences, but I find it insane that someone would be among that crowd and be upset that a large focus is placed on his writings. It's like, yeah, no kidding. What do you want? What did you expect? I say that as kindly as I can.
Exactly. Meeting with those who believe he's a true messenger from God means you'll probably be with a group who wants to study his words (though I've never met with people who would mock anyone wanting to read the Book of Mormon, Bible, etc.).

User avatar
SJR3t2
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2619
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by SJR3t2 »

Silver Pie wrote: January 27th, 2023, 4:41 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: January 26th, 2023, 9:54 pm It happened to me multiple times which is why I stopped meeting with them in person. And it's happened to many others.
That's just weird, and I feel sad for you and anyone else who has experienced this.
I'm glad I don't know those people. If a fellowship mocked me for any reason I would never go back. Not even one more time.

The good thing about this movement is if you can find fellow believers who respect you, you can start your own fellowship and meet together. There's zero reason to hang out with people who are rude to you or who make you uncomfortable.
It happened multiple times. I understand you find good in the Snufferites, not me. And I don't because of the doctrine. The DS and the official webpage for the movement contradicts the BoM on what the Holy Spirit / Ghost is. https://seekingyhwh.org/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

I kept going for a while because I didn't know who else to meet with, but it got to the point that that didn't matter enough anymore.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

A few words from Jeremy Hoop after the film. His quote from Joseph is quite damning to the polygamy narrative.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 29th, 2023, 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

A few words from Whitney Horning after the film:

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Letter from Joseph to Emma and the Relief Society, Apr. 2, 1842
Shall the credulity, good faith, and stedfast feelings of our sisters, for the cause of God or truth, be impos’d upon by believing such men, because they say they have authority from Joseph, or the First Presidency, or any other Presidency of the Church; and thus, with a lie in their mouth, deceive and debauch the innocent, under the assumption that they are authoriz’d from these sources? May God Forbid!

A knowledge of some such things having come to our ears, we improve this favorable opportunity, wherein so goodly a number of you may be inform’d that no such authority ever has, ever can, or ever will be given to any man, and if any man has been guilty of any such thing, let him be treated with utter contempt, and let the curse of God fall on his head, and let him be turned out of Society as unworthy of a place among men, & denounced as the blackest & the most unprincipled wretch; and finally let him be damned!

We have been informed that some unprincipled men, whose names we will not mention at present, have been guilty of such crimes. We do not mention their names, not knowing but what there may be some among you who are not sufficiently skill’d in Masonry as to keep a secret, therefore, suffice it to say, there are those, and we therefore warn you, & forewarn you, in the name of the Lord, to check & destroy any faith that any innocent person may have in any such character; for we do not want any one to believe any thing as coming from us, contrary to the old established morals & virtues & scriptural laws, regulating the habits, customs & conduct of society; and all persons pretending to be authoriz’d by us, or having any permit, or sanction from us, are & will be liars & base impostors, & you are authoriz’d on the very first intimation of the kind, to denounce them as such, & shun them as the flying fiery serpent, whether they are prophets, Seers, or revelators; Patriarchs, twelve Apostles, Elders, Priests, Mayers, Generals, City Councillors, Aldermen, Marshalls, Police, Lord Mayors or the Devil, are alike culpable & shall be damned for such evil practices; and if you yourselves adhere to anything of the kind, you also shall be damned.
BTW, Joseph’s comment about Masonry is intriguing. I never saw that before.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 29th, 2023, 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BuriedTartaria
Captain of Tartary
Posts: 1904

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by BuriedTartaria »

I got to hear Whitney Horning speak once and briefly got to say hi to her husband. Very high quality people IMO.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Justin did an appearance on Mormon Book Reviews about the movie too. I thought he did well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxojSzuRLg&t=1s

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Thinker »

BuriedTartaria wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:30 pm
oneClimbs wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:34 pm I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing.
That is a good point.
Framing them & maybe they feared if given a chance, Joseph would tell more. He already warned that some of his own men were plotting to kill him a few days before Joseph was indeed killed. Also, Samuel another of Joseph’s brothers mysteriously died - seemed poisoned.

Then you add the facts that Joseph & Hiram’s dead bodies were hid & faking other burials of sand… & no investigation was made until much later when there was a new sheriff. So obviously this was more organized than some staged teenage boys in a young “mob.”

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Another interview w/ Justin:

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by oneClimbs »

Thinker wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:30 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:30 pm
oneClimbs wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:34 pm I've seen both films. I think one of the biggest issues I have with his theory (which I'll admit is certainly possible) is why John and Willard, if they were conspirators, would put themselves in the line of fire and then kill Joseph and Hyrum when a mob of people were coming to do that very thing.
That is a good point.
Framing them & maybe they feared if given a chance, Joseph would tell more. He already warned that some of his own men were plotting to kill him a few days before Joseph was indeed killed. Also, Samuel another of Joseph’s brothers mysteriously died - seemed poisoned.

Then you add the facts that Joseph & Hiram’s dead bodies were hid & faking other burials of sand… & no investigation was made until much later when there was a new sheriff. So obviously this was more organized than some staged teenage boys in a young “mob.”
I'm currently reading "The Secret Chamber" by Val Brinkerhoff which was published in 2019. It seems that Justin may have been, in part, inspired by Val's research here. The whole "inside job" theory seems to have been touted by the RLDS from the beginning but hasn't really been that strongly entertained in LDS circles until very recently with Justin's films putting it more in the forefront.

Justin's assertions seem very much in line with Val's, but a book will always have more detail than a film. Justin's unique approach uses forensic research which is unique and I think important to the discussion. But I think presenting such a deep subject in a short film prevents all of the background research from being examined. Personally, I think Val's book should be read along with Justin's films to fill in the background a little more.

I'm actually more persuaded by Justin's position by reading Val's book. There is a lot more to the story that we aren't being told, even in Justin's films. I think that's been my problem with the films though is there is this giant leap. It probably doesn't seem that giant because Justin has the advantage of years of study on the subject. Someone who is already deeply steeped in the "official" narrative had no clue how flawed it REALLY is which is what Val's book delves into.

So at this point, that's the biggest flaw I see with presenting this information in film format. There's a massive foundation missing and premises that have not even come close to being adequately addressed first.

Of all the quotes that Justin could have shared at the end of film #1, he shared an incredibly late quote (40+ years?) from Joseph's sister that may be accurate but I think is unreliable. There is a hoard of other information that is far more valuable and credible, I think, that is mostly unknown to members of the church.

Having said all this, it only reinforces what I've come to say for years that there are problems with the existing church. With certain aspects of our teachings like the false doctrine of plural marriage, to the corruption of the organizational structure of the church itself. I think these are solvable issues and they very well may be addressed in the future.

I don't think any of this means that tossing out the church as a whole is wise. In the big picture the church is still a "new" organization, a "new" wine bottle in many ways that may still be flexible enough and willing enough to shift back, even if it does cause a massive rift of some kind.

As a member of this church, I have sought out and received a baptism of fire and have been born of God. I've seen many miracles and the power of God manifest from time to time. I sense that in some ways, there is an effort to purify ourselves from past false doctrines. Look how much of what Brigham instituted has already passed away and has been rejected. I think more will come.

I think we have a thick layer of unfruitful traditions to overcome but that it is possible at the personal, family, and local level if we focus on the right things. I think we should be proactive in our wards to "be the change we wish to see" and to be wise and humble about it. We can change lives and bring people to Christ. It's not necessary that every single person has to believe every single theory or thing that we think is important.

If we focus on the actual doctrine of Christ and seek to mentor others around us if that is where we are, we can do great things as members of the church. Ultimately, when God decides what to do with his church and people, he'll make that move. But for the time being, I think he is simply watching and waiting to see what kind of fruit we produce individually and collectively.

Anyway, that's an update on my end.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Thinker »

oneClimbs wrote: January 30th, 2023, 11:28 am... There is a hoard of other information that is far more valuable and credible, I think, that is mostly unknown to members of the church.

Having said all this, it only reinforces what I've come to say for years that there are problems with the existing church. With certain aspects of our teachings like the false doctrine of plural marriage, to the corruption of the organizational structure of the church itself. I think these are solvable issues and they very well may be addressed in the future.

I don't think any of this means that tossing out the church as a whole is wise. In the big picture the church is still a "new" organization, a "new" wine bottle in many ways that may still be flexible enough and willing enough to shift back, even if it does cause a massive rift of some kind.

As a member of this church, I have sought out and received a baptism of fire and have been born of God. I've seen many miracles and the power of God manifest from time to time. I sense that in some ways, there is an effort to purify ourselves from past false doctrines. Look how much of what Brigham instituted has already passed away and has been rejected. I think more will come.

I think we have a thick layer of unfruitful traditions to overcome but that it is possible at the personal, family, and local level if we focus on the right things. I think we should be proactive in our wards to "be the change we wish to see" and to be wise and humble about it. We can change lives and bring people to Christ. It's not necessary that every single person has to believe every single theory or thing that we think is important.

If we focus on the actual doctrine of Christ and seek to mentor others around us if that is where we are, we can do great things as members of the church. Ultimately, when God decides what to do with his church and people, he'll make that move. But for the time being, I think he is simply watching and waiting to see what kind of fruit we produce individually and collectively.

Anyway, that's an update on my end.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ve often appreciated valid points you’ve made, even when I disagree with you on some.

Truth is in perspective, though I suppose God is more objective truth. We cannot help but tell ourselves stories - which always involve some imagination & lack of “factual” truth. No matter how spiritually enlightened, smart, educated, well-read someone is, they will still decide what it all means based on their subjective interpretations. That’s not to discourage seeking truth, but rather to remember, we all have blind spots & fill in the blanks.

On the other hand, to deny what is right in front of us, is going down the path of the father of lies, which path many members have gone down. God can save anyone, but pride tends to keep people lost.

I agree that tossing out the entire church because of discovered evil, is rash. Yes, there is evil now, as there was in the 1800’s within the church - not just people too far down that deceptive path but also evil dogmas. Life is about choice… Good and evil are almost ALWAYS mixed, so we can’t just blindly accept things, as we did as kids, & as many members still do. Cherry-picking is the name of the game! 😎

There is so much yet to discover! It’s exciting - though it can be difficult too. Change, & especially realizing we were previously mistaken can be really challenging.

I don’t think God sits around waiting for us to get our acts together. I think God is ACTIVE faith - working with those who choose God over profits etc.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5862
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by TheDuke »

After a bit more thought, some discussions and pondering, I'm more inclined to follow the line of reasoning of the forensic expert. Not an inside job, but not reported correctly initially either. BTW, the comments that it wasn't likely drunk kids discounts what Justin and others said about the mob; that they were there to hang the Smith brothers.

I feel like the plan was to hang them. Some went up and shooting started as they didn't know guns were in the room. They got chased down a few step by Joseph, came back up pissed and confused and made some more shots. Guessing all that wanted Joseph and Hyrum dead (which ever groups they were) were happy, but not the Mormons and not the mob. The mob seemed (according to the evidence) really want the hanging. I think WW and JT were likely a bit cowardly and embellished their parts in the story. I don't disagree with them tossing JS out the window to buy some time and hiding in the next room, still scared to death.

Just seems like there were plans from several parties at Carthage and none of them worded out. Neither did god save Joseph and Hyrum like in the past and for a reason, I feel. I think the last time Joseph was let out/free it was because he hadn't yet finished his doctrinal teachings. He had yet to give his final GC talk which we call King Follett Discourse. After his final teaching, he was expendable in that he completed that which was given him. Hence, his comments of this time being different when reading Emma's note to come back home.

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by oneClimbs »

TheDuke wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 11:37 am After a bit more thought, some discussions and pondering, I'm more inclined to follow the line of reasoning of the forensic expert. Not an inside job, but not reported correctly initially either. BTW, the comments that it wasn't likely drunk kids discounts what Justin and others said about the mob; that they were there to hang the Smith brothers.

I feel like the plan was to hang them. Some went up and shooting started as they didn't know guns were in the room. They got chased down a few step by Joseph, came back up pissed and confused and made some more shots. Guessing all that wanted Joseph and Hyrum dead (which ever groups they were) were happy, but not the Mormons and not the mob. The mob seemed (according to the evidence) really want the hanging. I think WW and JT were likely a bit cowardly and embellished their parts in the story. I don't disagree with them tossing JS out the window to buy some time and hiding in the next room, still scared to death.

Just seems like there were plans from several parties at Carthage and none of them worded out. Neither did god save Joseph and Hyrum like in the past and for a reason, I feel. I think the last time Joseph was let out/free it was because he hadn't yet finished his doctrinal teachings. He had yet to give his final GC talk which we call King Follett Discourse. After his final teaching, he was expendable in that he completed that which was given him. Hence, his comments of this time being different when reading Emma's note to come back home.
That's certainly a possibility as well, I can totally see that happening as another scenario on the table. It's definitely worth further consideration and research. But finding out exactly what people did in a room rushing around over a century after the fact isn't exactly easy. The forensic work is a great contribution, it's allowing us to explore more ideas and scenarios.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Luke »

oneClimbs wrote: January 30th, 2023, 11:28 am . . . the false doctrine of plural marriage . . .
Er… no.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

hahaha.. at one point Joseph and his family condemned polygamy with the strongest language. This has to be the elephant in the room when it comes to deciphering what happened at Carthage. If they did what the church says they did, they were damned liars of the highest order. Ain't no beatin' around the bush on that one.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Justin uploaded this more extensive analysis from the CSI investigator:

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:54 pm hahaha.. at one point Joseph and his family condemned polygamy with the strongest language. This has to be the elephant in the room when it comes to deciphering what happened at Carthage. If they did what the church says they did, they were damned liars of the highest order. Ain't no beatin' around the bush on that one.
Lol this has literally been rehashed thousands of times. We don’t care that they lied to Babylon to save their skin. Whether it was the best course for them to pursue or not is not for me to say.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15310
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 4:43 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 3rd, 2023, 3:54 pm hahaha.. at one point Joseph and his family condemned polygamy with the strongest language. This has to be the elephant in the room when it comes to deciphering what happened at Carthage. If they did what the church says they did, they were damned liars of the highest order. Ain't no beatin' around the bush on that one.
Lol this has literally been rehashed thousands of times. We don’t care that they lied to Babylon to save their skin. Whether it was the best course for them to pursue or not is not for me to say.
Justify this all you like. This doesn't even come close to things like Nephi and Laban, or things even Abraham did. When you take into totality the things Joseph and Hyrum said on record while alive, and you still believe the polygamy (and polyamory) narrative, you believe they were the most extreme hypocrites. It amazes me the abominations and sins a person can justify through twisting history and the scriptures.

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Being There »


User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Being There »

THE REAL TRUTH

User avatar
oneClimbs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3187
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by oneClimbs »

“I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.”

- Joseph Smith, 11 days before his death

Post Reply