Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman
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Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Last night was the premier of “Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption”

I haven’t watched it yet. I’m thinking about setting up a movie night with a bunch of friends. I’m sure there’s nothing controversial… :) Enjoy!

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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I'm jumping around it to get a quick understanding of what the movie is like.

There's a part about 1 hour and 15 minutes into the movie where the narrator of the film says when the first movie debuted he held a Q&A afterwards and a woman asked him "what now?" and he didn't directly answer her question but he suggests now individuals can go on a personal journey to try and answer that question. The narrator cuts to footage of General Conference season in SLC and you see many people (a lot of the people are good, but if you follow something that seems to be flirting with evil, will you remain good if the fear of corruption is true and you follow after that corruption?) united in what seems to be a righteous purpose (the LDS church). There is a clear sense of belonging and unity with hope for a better world when you see the crowd and are part of the crowd at General Conference. So if you ask the question, if you think the official story is less than true, where does that leave you? You are often homeless as far as having a religious body to unite with goes. You aren't part of the big Book of Mormon believing religion anymore but you still believe in the Book of Mormon (or maybe you don't but you still feel attached to whatever occurred with Joseph Smith and you're trying to find God).

It's a really interesting place to find yourself but I think the largest general amount of loneliness this awakening would cause has now passed and despite a lot of different views being held, I think a kind of community for non-traditional Book of Mormon believers is growing.


Another thing I found interesting, the first movie debuted at the Thanksgiving Point Utah theater. I have had interactions with leadership there (good people, from what I understand but like most of the world, little interest in the controversial that can harm image and business dealings) so I was shocked to see that they hosted a viewing of this film. I see that the sequel's debut was held there as well. VERY interesting to me. Is the awakening farther spread than assumed?


On this topic, I'd like to highlight a few podcasts/youtube channels I've seen rising up in the last year or so that seem to be faithful to the Book of Mormon but not necessarily married to any Mormon group. I think they offer good food for thought without being offensive to an LDS faithful listener

Teacher in Zion: https://www.youtube.com/@TeacherInZion (really good production values, simple with a country feel)
Truth & Precept: https://www.youtube.com/@truthprecept678

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SJR3t2
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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I just watched Who Killed Joseph Smith part 2. It had some very good things in it. But at the end the question is posed what do we do now? I was inspired to post this response to the author which I never received a response to, and it is part of the answer.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/01/19/tora ... ill-valid/

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BeNotDeceived
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Redemption

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The evidence clearly supports what the DS has told us,

but who doesn't ignore the evidence at march8miracle.org. :?:

New Evidence with March 8, 2002 being pivotal.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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I went last night to the premiere in the theatre. My 2 cents:

- I was hoping he would go in the direction of identifying the motives of the culprits and identifying everyone involved in the conspiracy, but the movie wasn't about any of that. That's not a strike against the film, it was very good, it's just I remember seeing Justin in an interview a long time ago where someone asked him about motives and he said something flippant about maybe that will be in part 2.

- The film was good, and touching in places. A lot is revealed about the cost Justin and his family bore for not backing down from what they believed was the truth (and I think is truth too).

- He brings in a non-lds forensic expert who actually disagrees with his theory (high praise for Justin's integrity). This guy had never even heard of Joseph Smith before, has no dog in the fight, and was able to analyze dispassionately. The expert concludes that both John Taylor and Willard Richard's accounts are impossible to the point of possibly being outright fabrications. He also concluded Justin's theory was possible, and confirmed that Hyrum''s face wound and killing blow was a one-shot, entering in at the throat below the chin and existing at the left side of the nose, basically confirmed Justin is right about that. He also allows that Justin's theory is completely possible, but argues it's also possible that some of the mob at the door could have (in the push/pull) managed to get a pistol into the fight and fired it up into Hyrum. I was left agreeing that it is possible for things to go that way, but then why all the suspicious behavior from Taylor and Richards and the completely wrong eyewitness accounts?

- He bolsters his original movie with lots of interesting new evidence.

- There isn't really a quick review of Justin's theory from the 1st film, which might have been instructive to newcomers who haven't seen the 1st film. Just a quick recap would have done it. I can imagine newcomers would eventually puzzle out what Justin's theory was by watching the full 2nd movie, but I also imagine they would initially be confused and lost as to what all the controversy was.

- After the movie, there were five (!) speakers, not including Justin himself. The film was quite good, but did everyone who was attending know they would were signing up for a mini-conference thereafter? The better way to play it would have been for Justin to give a few words and thank-you's, receive applause, then invite everyone to stay after a 5 min bathroom break advising there would be speakers and maybe some question answers for those who were interested in staying. Instead they launched right into the speakers with no advance warning (that I was aware of) and no break or natural opportunity for the audience to leave after the film.

- I recognized several of the names of the speakers, particular Mark Curtis from Hemlock Knots and Whitney Horning. Mark was first, and he seemed to try to keep it short, mostly testifying of the importance of truth. It was good, and he seemed to respectiful of peoples' time, at this point I thought I could weather it without bolting, particularly as I was interested in hearing what Whitney Horning might say, but knowing she was close to the last speaker.

- The woman from the youtube channel 132 problems was next. I haven't made it through too many of her vids, not because I disagree with her but because I agree with her and she takes too long to get to the point. She did a 15 minute warm up, complete with cry-a-mony tears that made her borderline impossible to understand at a few points, then cracked a joke about how we were just getting started and she'd have us there all night. I laughed at the notion and decided I was out for the night, made my way down the aisles while she was still speaking, not sure what her point was as she was speaking about being a full fledged lds member and also saying that Justin's movie addressed a topic she didn't really put much emphasis on or hadn't researched much (she's more concerned with polygamy). I don't know what the thrust of her speech was going to be because she hadn't yet even started it yet, but I wasn't going to stick around any longer, it had already been a long day and a long night. This sounds like I'm being mean to her and that's not my intention, because there was not much she said I disagree with and she seemed very sweet, but I mean c'mon....

Overall I really liked it, though in retrospect I think I should have stayed home and watched it on youtube instead. :)

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Oh I should also add the theatre was absolutely packed. Almost no empty seats at all. So initial response was pretty big, and there were several times during the movie where the entire audience erupted in applause.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:07 pm Oh I should also add the theatre was absolutely packed. Almost no empty seats at all. So initial response was pretty big, and there were several times during the movie where the entire audience erupted in applause.
I wish I'd have gone. I would have had I known about it.

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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So much deception it’s sickening

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Do you believe the stories told by WR and JT as to what happened in the jail?
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 20th, 2023, 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Personally it's mindless virtue-signaling which adds nothing to the discussion that I find hilarious. But hey, that's just me. :)

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Robin Hood wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:57 pm This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.
I’ll ask you the same question, do you believe the accounts of WR and JT, and I mean all of what they said happened?

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:25 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Personally it's mindless virtue-signaling which adds nothing to the discussion that I find hilarious. But hey, that's just me. :)
Not really virtue signalling, just my opinion. Which you are free to believe or disbelieve. And which I am free to post here just as you are yours.

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:55 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Do you believe the stories told by WR and JT as to what happened in the jail?
Yes

“But they were thoroughly debunked!!!” no they weren’t, lol.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:58 am Last night was the premier of “Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption”

I haven’t watched it yet. I’m thinking about setting up a movie night with a bunch of friends. I’m sure there’s nothing controversial… :) Enjoy!
I just finished watching it and was going to share it here.

I think one of the comments under it says it all. (Italics mine)



Steve Bryner
6 hours ago
My son Thomas Bryner plays the part of Young Joseph Smith in the beginning. This film was personal to me for that reason. I'm really proud of Thomas. He didn't want to do it at first, he is kind of a reserved kid. In the end he did it and I am really proud of him for putting himself out there.

I don’t believe that opening the movie with a reenactment of the first vision was to tell the audience that this movie was going to be all about Joseph Smith. This movie is not about Joseph Smith or really even who killed Him for that matter. The movie begins with the first vision, because the movie is about journeys with God. And all journeys have a beginning. The first vision was the beginning of a journey for Joseph Smith that ended with his death at a young age in a jail.

The point of the movie is not to try and prove anything to anyone. If the investigator in the movie had said for certain, 100% for sure that John Taylor and Willard Richards were the gunmen, would that have changed anyone's minds? Of course not. He's just a guy and if you are listening to him, you're already deceived.

The point of the movie is encourage people to seek God for themselves. Seek Him and listen to only Him. Christ is the way, the TRUTH and the light. And the TRUTH sets you free.

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:36 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:55 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Do you believe the stories told by WR and JT as to what happened in the jail?
Yes

“But they were thoroughly debunked!!!” no they weren’t, lol.
You believe a rifle slug hit his (JT) pocket watch and threw him back into the room?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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The very end, after the credits is worth hearing, too. It's a prelude, I think, to the next part, which is Joseph not practicing polygamy (the "fact" being invented by BY and cronies).

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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:42 pm The very end, after the credits is worth hearing, too. It's a prelude, I think, to the next part, which is Joseph not practicing polygamy (the "fact" being invented by BY and cronies).
Luke will love that part. :)

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:42 pm The very end, after the credits is worth hearing, too. It's a prelude, I think, to the next part, which is Joseph not practicing polygamy (the "fact" being invented by BY and cronies).
I liked the unexpected bit after the credits. The audience last night broke into cheering too. :)

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:40 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:36 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:55 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:45 pm So much deception it’s sickening
Do you believe the stories told by WR and JT as to what happened in the jail?
Yes

“But they were thoroughly debunked!!!” no they weren’t, lol.
You believe a rifle slug hit his (JT) pocket watch and threw him back into the room?
Don’t know. Apparently it’s more likely that he leant on the windowsill and it smashed.

Don’t tell me you can remember every little detail of everything. I think it’s probable that JT, looking at his watch afterwards, made the assumption that the breakage was from a bullet (whether it was or it wasn’t it up for debate). There’s no way he was taking note of his watch as he was trying to stay alive.

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Luke
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:43 pm
Silver Pie wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:42 pm The very end, after the credits is worth hearing, too. It's a prelude, I think, to the next part, which is Joseph not practicing polygamy (the "fact" being invented by BY and cronies).
Luke will love that part. :)
Also looking forward to the William Clayton journals being published in full and settling this debate once and for all 🤣

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

Post by Silver Pie »

Robin Hood wrote: January 20th, 2023, 4:57 pm This was poor... very poor.
I was, quite frankly, astounded at how bad it was.
Basically it boiled down to a consultation with some forensic detective who, although he didn't dismiss Griffin's inside job theory altogether, suggested a much more likely and less sensational alternative.
And that was it. The rest was all acting.
Part one was better. This seemed to be more of a response to the criticisms, hence why he consulted a forensic detective.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:02 pm I went last night to the premiere in the theatre. My 2 cents:

- I was hoping he would go in the direction of identifying the motives of the culprits and identifying everyone involved in the conspiracy, but the movie wasn't about any of that.
That was in part 1. I think Part 2 presupposes one has watched the first one.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:45 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:40 pm
Luke wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:36 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:55 pm

Do you believe the stories told by WR and JT as to what happened in the jail?
Yes

“But they were thoroughly debunked!!!” no they weren’t, lol.
You believe a rifle slug hit his (JT) pocket watch and threw him back into the room?
Don’t know. Apparently it’s more likely that he leant on the windowsill and it smashed.

Don’t tell me you can remember every little detail of everything. I think it’s probable that JT, looking at his watch afterwards, made the assumption that the breakage was from a bullet (whether it was or it wasn’t it up for debate). There’s no way he was taking note of his watch as he was trying to stay alive.
See, I think that's a fair viewpoint. Taylor could have just been wholly and innocently mistaken about how his watch was damaged, and then added some braggadocio to the tale ("I was thrown like a ragdoll through the air back into the room even though I was halfway to the ground!" etc).

The pocket watch gaffe isn't enough to make Taylor and Richards liars. It's all the rest of their horrendously wrong 'testimonies' that condemns them.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Who Killed Joseph Smith? Part 2: Redemption

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 20th, 2023, 6:28 pm I’ll ask you the same question, do you believe the accounts of WR and JT, and I mean all of what they said happened?
Instead, I would ask, "Have you watched Part 1?" Part 2 seems sadly lacking if one hasn't watched the first one. The first one is where the meat of the research is shown.

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