wow mocking, I gave you some before and with that response I'm not giving you more.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 30th, 2023, 12:50 pmSo, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents or when the fulfillment was of one of the goats having the sins of Israel placed upon it and driven into the wilderness or why the blood of the bullock had it's blood mixed with the other goat. You have no interpretation at all?SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 26th, 2023, 9:17 pmYeshua is the fatted cow. I personally see no problem with this or contradiction that it is pointing to Yeshua.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 25th, 2023, 7:33 pm9 And Aaron shall bring the goat (the first goat) upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10 But the goat (the second goat), on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him (with the first goat), and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (it's a joint atonement, one has to be sacrificed and one has to be driven out)
11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock (this is the third person, a bullock killed with the goat) of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself
The blood of the bullock and the first goat have their blood placed upon the mercy seat and then this is what is said of the scapegoat:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Torah is still Valid
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
No, I'm not mocking you at all. I'm simply saying that those are the primary questions of what the story is talking about and I don't see how you answer them. That's why I ask.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 9:00 amwow mocking, I gave you some before and with that response I'm not giving you more.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 30th, 2023, 12:50 pmSo, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents or when the fulfillment was of one of the goats having the sins of Israel placed upon it and driven into the wilderness or why the blood of the bullock had it's blood mixed with the other goat. You have no interpretation at all?SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 26th, 2023, 9:17 pmYeshua is the fatted cow. I personally see no problem with this or contradiction that it is pointing to Yeshua.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 25th, 2023, 7:33 pm
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat (the first goat) upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10 But the goat (the second goat), on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him (with the first goat), and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (it's a joint atonement, one has to be sacrificed and one has to be driven out)
11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock (this is the third person, a bullock killed with the goat) of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself
The blood of the bullock and the first goat have their blood placed upon the mercy seat and then this is what is said of the scapegoat:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
I actually have much respect for all the efforts you put into your scripture studies.
- Thinker
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13116
- Location: The Universe - wherever that is.
Re: Torah is still Valid
“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." ― Bertrand Russell
RH, I admire your intellect in many ways. So I’m not suggesting you’re stupid but rather that pride tends to blind people to facts right in front of them.
There’s a lot of evidence that those who are running things that get a lot of people killed align themselves with Ashkinazi (fake) J ews. And look at their most important scripture - the Talmud which says killing all nonjews is a-ok.
Btw, Ashkinazi are indeed fake because leaders like Trump join the club. It’s not about race or religion now - it’s about secret combinations, under the guise of something that cannot be criticized in many circles.
Last edited by Thinker on January 31st, 2023, 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 14224
Re: Torah is still Valid
The State of Israel had some of the harshest lockdown and "vaccine" restrictions in the developed world. You couldn't even buy a McDonald's burger without a so called "passport". They got nearly of their population jabbed by Passover 2021, and they started experiencing side effects long before other places. (Their Ministry of Health reported two hundred teenagers and twenty-something men had developed myocardial and other heart-related problems.)
Right now there are big protests in Israel. They have relatively little coverage in the international press and the media has contradicts itself over what they are about. From what I can ascertain, they seem to revolve around Netanyahu trying to undermine the legal system and introduce more restrictive rule for the (non-Arab) population.
Israel has not been doing well out of the recent crisis at all. Their tourist industry has also been massacred by lockdowns and the harsh "vaccine" regulations imposed on visitors.
- Thinker
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13116
- Location: The Universe - wherever that is.
Re: Torah is still Valid
Yeah, it reminds me of a modern - much more subtle “politically correct” holocaust. The Protocols talk of “sacrificing our brethren” with the earlier Holocaust… sacrificed them so they could hide behind their victim hood.Niemand wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 3:36 pmThe State of Israel had some of the harshest lockdown and "vaccine" restrictions in the developed world. You couldn't even buy a McDonald's burger without a so called "passport". They got nearly of their population jabbed by Passover 2021, and they started experiencing side effects long before other places. (Their Ministry of Health reported two hundred teenagers and twenty-something men had developed myocardial and other heart-related problems.)
Right now there are big protests in Israel. They have relatively little coverage in the international press and the media has contradicts itself over what they are about. From what I can ascertain, they seem to revolve around Netanyahu trying to undermine the legal system and introduce more restrictive rule for the (non-Arab) population.
Israel has not been doing well out of the recent crisis at all. Their tourist industry has also been massacred by lockdowns and the harsh "vaccine" regulations imposed on visitors.
Why would UK/US/etc form the state of Israel (1948), kicking out or killing authentic natives, while importing Ashkinazi’s? Why? I really don’t know - just guesses.
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 14224
Re: Torah is still Valid
Plenty of reasons. The USA has never been a great lover of Arabs (except the Saudis perhaps.) Ashkenazi were seen as more European and reliable. Also certain Christian viewpoints.
The UK was more ambivalent. A lot of the British Army command preferred Arabs and had a history of co-operation with them e.g. Lawrence of Arabia. So was the USSR which had a strange and contradictory stance over the state of Israel.
Maybe the Americans, British and Soviets had more cynical reasons. The Middle East was a likely place for a new world power to arise, particularly given the Suez Canal and oil reserves. An Israeli state would hinder Arab unity, oppose Iran and prevent such a new power from arising.
I do see the formation of the State of Israel as the fulfilment of prophecy, maybe not in the way some Christians think. It is certainly not a godly state, although godly people can be found in that region. Its actions and its unpopularity may lead to the attack which creates Armageddon.
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
When I have given some answers and you respect my efforts you don't reply with "So, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents". So perhaps that was not your intent.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 10:46 amNo, I'm not mocking you at all. I'm simply saying that those are the primary questions of what the story is talking about and I don't see how you answer them. That's why I ask.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 9:00 amwow mocking, I gave you some before and with that response I'm not giving you more.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 30th, 2023, 12:50 pmSo, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents or when the fulfillment was of one of the goats having the sins of Israel placed upon it and driven into the wilderness or why the blood of the bullock had it's blood mixed with the other goat. You have no interpretation at all?
I actually have much respect for all the efforts you put into your scripture studies.
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
Okay, so help me out and show me who the three individuals are in this prophecy. I'm contending that none of the three are the Savior, it is about 3 of his servants not him. If you think the bullock was the Savior, who was the goat that jointly shed his blood on the mercy seat with the Savior? Do you even agree with me that there are 3 individuals here?SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 8:51 pmWhen I have given some answers and you respect my efforts you don't reply with "So, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents". So perhaps that was not your intent.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 10:46 amNo, I'm not mocking you at all. I'm simply saying that those are the primary questions of what the story is talking about and I don't see how you answer them. That's why I ask.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 9:00 amwow mocking, I gave you some before and with that response I'm not giving you more.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 30th, 2023, 12:50 pm
So, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents or when the fulfillment was of one of the goats having the sins of Israel placed upon it and driven into the wilderness or why the blood of the bullock had it's blood mixed with the other goat. You have no interpretation at all?
I actually have much respect for all the efforts you put into your scripture studies.
- Sarah
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6737
Re: Torah is still Valid
So do you think Joseph is the ram, Hiram and Brigham the goats?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 12:59 pmOkay, so help me out and show me who the three individuals are in this prophecy. I'm contending that none of the three are the Savior, it is about 3 of his servants not him. If you think the bullock was the Savior, who was the goat that jointly shed his blood on the mercy seat with the Savior? Do you even agree with me that there are 3 individuals here?SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 8:51 pmWhen I have given some answers and you respect my efforts you don't reply with "So, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents". So perhaps that was not your intent.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 10:46 amNo, I'm not mocking you at all. I'm simply saying that those are the primary questions of what the story is talking about and I don't see how you answer them. That's why I ask.
I actually have much respect for all the efforts you put into your scripture studies.
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
No, the goats were true prophets who sacrificed themselves for the saints.
Here's what I think, which originates with the blogger Watcher.
The goat and the bullock who both had their blood spilt on the mercy seat were Jospeh and Hyrum. Once that portion of the prophecy was complete, the scapegoat who is Sidney Rigdon had the sins of Israel placed upon him and was driven off into the wilderness "by the hand of a fit man" (Brigham Young).
Leviticus 16 is a prophetic reenactment of the martyrdom and succession crisis.
- Sarah
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6737
Re: Torah is still Valid
Is this the same "Watcher" who was posting a lot here on this forum?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 2:19 pmNo, the goats were true prophets who sacrificed themselves for the saints.
Here's what I think, which originates with the blogger Watcher.
The goat and the bullock who both had their blood spilt on the mercy seat were Jospeh and Hyrum. Once that portion of the prophecy was complete, the scapegoat who is Sidney Rigdon had the sins of Israel placed upon him and was driven off into the wilderness "by the hand of a fit man" (Brigham Young).
Leviticus 16 is a prophetic reenactment of the martyrdom and succession crisis.
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
To my knowledge, he has never posted here, but many here link his blog.Sarah wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 2:24 pmIs this the same "Watcher" who was posting a lot here on this forum?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 2:19 pmNo, the goats were true prophets who sacrificed themselves for the saints.
Here's what I think, which originates with the blogger Watcher.
The goat and the bullock who both had their blood spilt on the mercy seat were Jospeh and Hyrum. Once that portion of the prophecy was complete, the scapegoat who is Sidney Rigdon had the sins of Israel placed upon him and was driven off into the wilderness "by the hand of a fit man" (Brigham Young).
Leviticus 16 is a prophetic reenactment of the martyrdom and succession crisis.
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
Actually there is 4 aspects of one person. Going to hell, going to the alter, being the priest, and being the alter.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 12:59 pmOkay, so help me out and show me who the three individuals are in this prophecy. I'm contending that none of the three are the Savior, it is about 3 of his servants not him. If you think the bullock was the Savior, who was the goat that jointly shed his blood on the mercy seat with the Savior? Do you even agree with me that there are 3 individuals here?SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 8:51 pmWhen I have given some answers and you respect my efforts you don't reply with "So, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents". So perhaps that was not your intent.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 10:46 amNo, I'm not mocking you at all. I'm simply saying that those are the primary questions of what the story is talking about and I don't see how you answer them. That's why I ask.
I actually have much respect for all the efforts you put into your scripture studies.
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
That may be but I see no connection to Leviticus 16. I see the chapter as being a prophecy of a future fulfillment, a time when two prophets were killed, and one was driven off into the wilderness. Joseph and Hyrum were killed and Sidney was driven off.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 9:05 amActually there is 4 aspects of one person. Going to hell, going to the alter, being the priest, and being the alter.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 12:59 pmOkay, so help me out and show me who the three individuals are in this prophecy. I'm contending that none of the three are the Savior, it is about 3 of his servants not him. If you think the bullock was the Savior, who was the goat that jointly shed his blood on the mercy seat with the Savior? Do you even agree with me that there are 3 individuals here?SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 8:51 pmWhen I have given some answers and you respect my efforts you don't reply with "So, bascially you're saying that you have no idea how this is a prophecy of 3 people or what the two goats represents". So perhaps that was not your intent.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 10:46 am
No, I'm not mocking you at all. I'm simply saying that those are the primary questions of what the story is talking about and I don't see how you answer them. That's why I ask.
I actually have much respect for all the efforts you put into your scripture studies.
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
We disagree for sure. Um so just to point something out, they were murdered in the same location in the room. Sidney driven off is not in anyway like an atonement ...Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 12:41 pmThat may be but I see no connection to Leviticus 16. I see the chapter as being a prophecy of a future fulfillment, a time when two prophets were killed, and one was driven off into the wilderness. Joseph and Hyrum were killed and Sidney was driven off.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 9:05 amActually there is 4 aspects of one person. Going to hell, going to the alter, being the priest, and being the alter.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 1st, 2023, 12:59 pmOkay, so help me out and show me who the three individuals are in this prophecy. I'm contending that none of the three are the Savior, it is about 3 of his servants not him. If you think the bullock was the Savior, who was the goat that jointly shed his blood on the mercy seat with the Savior? Do you even agree with me that there are 3 individuals here?
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
I understand we disagree, I just wish we could understand how and where we disagree, that way we at least understand each other.
Why do you point out them being murdered in the same location, where are you going with that train of thought?
I think you may be letting the word atonement distract you, substitute it with sacrifice or offering or intercession. This is a true principle, Moses fully believed he could intercede for his people.
- Thinker
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13116
- Location: The Universe - wherever that is.
Re: Torah is still Valid
Some good points. Basically racial prejudice against middle easterners so they made their own white country in the Middle East, while pretending it’s the “real” chosen place/people.Niemand wrote: ↑January 31st, 2023, 3:59 pmPlenty of reasons. The USA has never been a great lover of Arabs (except the Saudis perhaps.) Ashkenazi were seen as more European and reliable. Also certain Christian viewpoints.
The UK was more ambivalent. A lot of the British Army command preferred Arabs and had a history of co-operation with them e.g. Lawrence of Arabia. So was the USSR which had a strange and contradictory stance over the state of Israel.
Maybe the Americans, British and Soviets had more cynical reasons. The Middle East was a likely place for a new world power to arise, particularly given the Suez Canal and oil reserves. An Israeli state would hinder Arab unity, oppose Iran and prevent such a new power from arising.
I do see the formation of the State of Israel as the fulfilment of prophecy, maybe not in the way some Christians think. It is certainly not a godly state, although godly people can be found in that region. Its actions and its unpopularity may lead to the attack which creates Armageddon.
I can see the attempt to also keep presence there to suppress other potential rivals for superpowers - not as in Superman.
I don’t buy all the ancient PSY OPS “prophecies” that end up causing people to HELP bring about evil plans. Religion used for evil is more evil than something else that isn’t posing to be good.
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ Because both were murdered in the room.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 12:20 pmI understand we disagree, I just wish we could understand how and where we disagree, that way we at least understand each other.
Why do you point out them being murdered in the same location, where are you going with that train of thought?
I think you may be letting the word atonement distract you, substitute it with sacrifice or offering or intercession. This is a true principle, Moses fully believed he could intercede for his people.
Not to mention your theory doesn't go along with 4 aspects.
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
Yes, both were murdered in the same room. And...SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 10:38 pmhttps://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ Because both were murdered in the room.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 12:20 pmI understand we disagree, I just wish we could understand how and where we disagree, that way we at least understand each other.
Why do you point out them being murdered in the same location, where are you going with that train of thought?
I think you may be letting the word atonement distract you, substitute it with sacrifice or offering or intercession. This is a true principle, Moses fully believed he could intercede for his people.
Not to mention your theory doesn't go along with 4 aspects.
They both had their blood spilt just like in Leviticus.
What 4 aspects are you talking about?
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
In the account in scriptures they are not murdered in the same location. I already listed the 4 aspects.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 5th, 2023, 11:20 amYes, both were murdered in the same room. And...SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 10:38 pmhttps://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ Because both were murdered in the room.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 12:20 pmI understand we disagree, I just wish we could understand how and where we disagree, that way we at least understand each other.
Why do you point out them being murdered in the same location, where are you going with that train of thought?
I think you may be letting the word atonement distract you, substitute it with sacrifice or offering or intercession. This is a true principle, Moses fully believed he could intercede for his people.
Not to mention your theory doesn't go along with 4 aspects.
They both had their blood spilt just like in Leviticus.
What 4 aspects are you talking about?
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
They are not animals either. The big picture things will match, not all the trivia. Joseph didn't die in that room anyway.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 11:08 amIn the account in scriptures they are not murdered in the same location. I already listed the 4 aspects.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 5th, 2023, 11:20 amYes, both were murdered in the same room. And...SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 10:38 pmhttps://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ Because both were murdered in the room.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 12:20 pm
I understand we disagree, I just wish we could understand how and where we disagree, that way we at least understand each other.
Why do you point out them being murdered in the same location, where are you going with that train of thought?
I think you may be letting the word atonement distract you, substitute it with sacrifice or offering or intercession. This is a true principle, Moses fully believed he could intercede for his people.
Not to mention your theory doesn't go along with 4 aspects.
They both had their blood spilt just like in Leviticus.
What 4 aspects are you talking about?
- Shawn Henry
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4719
Re: Torah is still Valid
Yes, and you keep saying that, as if you saying it somehow tells when and where. Be a sport and cut and paste it.
- BeNotDeceived
- Agent38
- Posts: 9078
- Location: Tralfamadore
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 12:41 pmThat may be but I see no connection to Leviticus 16. I see the chapter as being a prophecy of a future fulfillment, a time when two prophets were killed, and one was driven off into the wilderness. Joseph and Hyrum were killed and Sidney was driven off.
Many, including Brigham were making Bogus.
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
We disagree about the picture matching at all for sure.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 10:54 pmThey are not animals either. The big picture things will match, not all the trivia. Joseph didn't die in that room anyway.SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 11:08 amIn the account in scriptures they are not murdered in the same location. I already listed the 4 aspects.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 5th, 2023, 11:20 amYes, both were murdered in the same room. And...SJR3t2 wrote: ↑February 4th, 2023, 10:38 pm
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/ Because both were murdered in the room.
Not to mention your theory doesn't go along with 4 aspects.
They both had their blood spilt just like in Leviticus.
What 4 aspects are you talking about?
- SJR3t2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2744
- Contact:
Re: Torah is still Valid
the priest is the priest, and the animal he sacrifice prepares the altarShawn Henry wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 10:56 pmYes, and you keep saying that, as if you saying it somehow tells when and where. Be a sport and cut and paste it.