Power trip 🤯

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Silver Pie wrote: January 11th, 2023, 3:16 pm In regards to the op, I would think that any man (or woman) would find it nearly impossible to be affected by the adoration and rapt attention of millions to the point that your every opinion was considered God's own truth. Add to that the billions and billions of dollars in cash and assets. How could any mere mortal not be taken for a ride with all that?

The surprise would be if that didn't turn their head.
The TBM would respond, “No, they are so humble that they take no thought for themselves. They are God’s anointed.”

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Re: Power trip 🤯

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I do have to ask, what does that do to a mind of a person when there are people constantly affirming that they will follow you? Always standing when you enter the room…
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 11th, 2023, 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Power trip 🤯

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:19 pm The TBM would respond, “No, they are so humble that they take no thought for themselves. They are God’s anointed.”
We know better, don't we?

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Silver Pie
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Silver Pie »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:20 pm I do have to ask, what does that do to a mind of a person when they constantly have people affirming that they will follow you?
Hm 🤔 Maybe look at a four year old brat who has had his every whim catered to? That might give us an idea of how they feel - maybe even how they act when not in the public eye.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Silver Pie »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:20 pm I do have to ask, what does that do to a mind of a person when there are people constantly affirming that they will follow you? Always standing when you enter the room…
Didn't Bednar throw a major fit when people got up to leave without waiting for him? Or maybe that was because they started talking to each other instead of worshiping him - he withdrew the apostolic blessing he'd given them.

But I'm sure there was some apostle or other who got really upset when people didn't stand for him. I don't think I'm making it up.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Silver Pie wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:22 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:20 pm I do have to ask, what does that do to a mind of a person when they constantly have people affirming that they will follow you?
Hm 🤔 Maybe look at a four year old brat who has had his every whim catered to? That might give us an idea of how they feel - maybe even how they act when not in the public eye.
I honestly am trying to give these men the benefit of the doubt. In the past I have been quite harsh in my judgement. But when I sit back and ponder the examples from the scriptures… something just gives me that icky feeling.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Silver Pie wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:20 pm I do have to ask, what does that do to a mind of a person when there are people constantly affirming that they will follow you? Always standing when you enter the room…
Didn't Bednar throw a major fit when people got up to leave without waiting for him? Or maybe that was because they started talking to each other instead of worshiping him - he withdrew the apostolic blessing he'd given them.

But I'm sure there was some apostle or other who got really upset when people didn't stand for him. I don't think I'm making it up.
I think the video of Bednar was when his wife stood up before he did. She sat back down and waited…

Andersen also had the video where the area authority had to wave everybody up to stand while he walked to the front of the room, and then he motioned for all of them to sit… SMH.

Here’s that Bednar gem:

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cyclOps
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by cyclOps »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:06 pm
cyclOps wrote: January 11th, 2023, 12:40 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 10:45 am
cyclOps wrote: January 11th, 2023, 10:44 am

I again quote Jesus, “he said unto those twelve whom he had chosen: Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people,” (3 Nephi 15:11-12).
They are only a light when they teach the precepts and doctrine of Christ. To suggest that we follow someone solely based upon a position of leadership is cultish.
Who suggested that?
How do you interpret the verse you quoted? What you stated was true, but most members take a scripture like that and say, “Look, we need to follow the prophets”…. And with trailing breath, “… because they can never lead us astray.”
Most members can take a look at that scripture and say whatever they want. Honestly though, I think you’re over assuming and painting with a broad brush, all from a perspective filtered by too much cynicism. (I am also often a cynic in other areas of my life.) I say this, because I see you making up hypothetical quotes of what someone would or wouldn’t say. I admit, it bothers me when I see people do this. A great way to believe you’re right or to try and win a debate is to erroneously define the opposing argument. I prefer to consider reality, specifics, and what is actually said, not hypotheticals nor generalities.

Now, to answer your question:

Regarding 3 Nephi 15:11-12, Jesus was speaking to the twelve Nephites telling them they were His disciples (followers, we also know they were His apostles to whom He gave authority). He was also telling them they were a light unto the people. Interestingly, in 3 Nephi 18:24 He told the people to hold up their light and that He was the light they should hold up. So the twelve were a light unto the people, but so was He. This jives with D&C 84:36, “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;”

Regarding 3 Nephi 12:1, Jesus was talking to the people telling them they would be blessed if they heed the words of the twelve He chose (the apostles He gave authority to). He tells the people there twelve were to be their ministers and servants. Again this jives with D&C 84:36, “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;” After Jesus tells the people they will be blessed for feeding the words of the twelve, he launched into the beatitudes and tells them what else they will be blessed for.

Yes, the twelve are a light to the people and the people should receive them and heed their words. Jesus Christ is also THE Light and the people should receive Him and He us THE Word. Obviously, if the two (Jesus and His servants) are incongruent, always follow Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is always perfect, man is not. Jesus Christ won’t fail us, man can. I believe Jesus Christ leads His church. I believe if one of His servants fail us, He will not and He will take care of it, appointing another in their stead.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

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Silver Pie wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:24 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:20 pm I do have to ask, what does that do to a mind of a person when there are people constantly affirming that they will follow you? Always standing when you enter the room…
Didn't Bednar throw a major fit when people got up to leave without waiting for him? Or maybe that was because they started talking to each other instead of worshiping him - he withdrew the apostolic blessing he'd given them.

But I'm sure there was some apostle or other who got really upset when people didn't stand for him. I don't think I'm making it up.
No way.... Please tell me this part is real??! 🤣🤣🤣

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 12:26 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:06 pm
cyclOps wrote: January 11th, 2023, 12:40 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 10:45 am

They are only a light when they teach the precepts and doctrine of Christ. To suggest that we follow someone solely based upon a position of leadership is cultish.
Who suggested that?
How do you interpret the verse you quoted? What you stated was true, but most members take a scripture like that and say, “Look, we need to follow the prophets”…. And with trailing breath, “… because they can never lead us astray.”
Most members can take a look at that scripture and say whatever they want. Honestly though, I think you’re over assuming and painting with a broad brush, all from a perspective filtered by too much cynicism. (I am also often a cynic in other areas of my life.) I say this, because I see you making up hypothetical quotes of what someone would or wouldn’t say. I admit, it bothers me when I see people do this. A great way to believe you’re right or to try and win a debate is to erroneously define the opposing argument. I prefer to consider reality, specifics, and what is actually said, not hypotheticals nor generalities.

Now, to answer your question:

Regarding 3 Nephi 15:11-12, Jesus was speaking to the twelve Nephites telling them they were His disciples (followers, we also know they were His apostles to whom He gave authority). He was also telling them they were a light unto the people. Interestingly, in 3 Nephi 18:24 He told the people to hold up their light and that He was the light they should hold up. So the twelve were a light unto the people, but so was He. This jives with D&C 84:36, “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;”

Regarding 3 Nephi 12:1, Jesus was talking to the people telling them they would be blessed if they heed the words of the twelve He chose (the apostles He gave authority to). He tells the people there twelve were to be their ministers and servants. Again this jives with D&C 84:36, “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;” After Jesus tells the people they will be blessed for feeding the words of the twelve, he launched into the beatitudes and tells them what else they will be blessed for.

Yes, the twelve are a light to the people and the people should receive them and heed their words. Jesus Christ is also THE Light and the people should receive Him and He us THE Word. Obviously, if the two (Jesus and His servants) are incongruent, always follow Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is always perfect, man is not. Jesus Christ won’t fail us, man can. I believe Jesus Christ leads His church. I believe if one of His servants fail us, He will not and He will take care of it, appointing another in their stead.
I would ask that you cite my “hypothetical” quotes from the church. Sure, there are times when I am being sarcastic, but it should be quite obvious when I’m doing that.

To give you an example, when Christ teaches to not trust in any man, even prophets, seers, and revelators. And He teaches that in multiple canon of scripture, and then Nelson comes out and says the following repeatedly. “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Direct quote btw)

I honestly don’t think I’m brushing with too broad of a brush stroke. I actually think things are far more sinister. I’m willing to study anything, and trust me, that has taken a lot of effort in trusting God to discern some insane stuff (not all true btw.)

And I do agree w/ your assessment of 3 Nephi… but the only time this has any validity is when they are holding up the light of Christ, when they teach His doctrine. That’s why I’m so damn adamant about the quote I noted above. They are teaching darkness, the exact opposite of what Christ taught. They are are not holding up a light, but leading and teaching darkness.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 12th, 2023, 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

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To move this discussion back to the OP. Does anyone have any thoughts about how the church defines the word “sustain”? This is really at the heart of this mental game. I’ve cited YWs manuals where it clearly teaches that to sustain is to obey. I have direct quotes from church presidents that say the exact same thing. On another thread it was shared that Renlund taught that to sustain is an oath and covenant to obey that leader. (That just blows my gasket, hence the icon w/ this thread: 🤯)

Can any of you honestly feel that the Lord would put these checks and gatekeepers between you and Him, especially when oaths and covenants are taken into consideration? I can’t think of a single verse of scripture where it was obvious the Lord wanted you to covenant with a man, but that is exactly what the church teaches.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by cyclOps »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 12th, 2023, 4:50 am
cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 12:26 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:06 pm
cyclOps wrote: January 11th, 2023, 12:40 pm

Who suggested that?
How do you interpret the verse you quoted? What you stated was true, but most members take a scripture like that and say, “Look, we need to follow the prophets”…. And with trailing breath, “… because they can never lead us astray.”
Most members can take a look at that scripture and say whatever they want. Honestly though, I think you’re over assuming and painting with a broad brush, all from a perspective filtered by too much cynicism. (I am also often a cynic in other areas of my life.) I say this, because I see you making up hypothetical quotes of what someone would or wouldn’t say. I admit, it bothers me when I see people do this. A great way to believe you’re right or to try and win a debate is to erroneously define the opposing argument. I prefer to consider reality, specifics, and what is actually said, not hypotheticals nor generalities.

Now, to answer your question:

Regarding 3 Nephi 15:11-12, Jesus was speaking to the twelve Nephites telling them they were His disciples (followers, we also know they were His apostles to whom He gave authority). He was also telling them they were a light unto the people. Interestingly, in 3 Nephi 18:24 He told the people to hold up their light and that He was the light they should hold up. So the twelve were a light unto the people, but so was He. This jives with D&C 84:36, “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;”

Regarding 3 Nephi 12:1, Jesus was talking to the people telling them they would be blessed if they heed the words of the twelve He chose (the apostles He gave authority to). He tells the people there twelve were to be their ministers and servants. Again this jives with D&C 84:36, “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;” After Jesus tells the people they will be blessed for feeding the words of the twelve, he launched into the beatitudes and tells them what else they will be blessed for.

Yes, the twelve are a light to the people and the people should receive them and heed their words. Jesus Christ is also THE Light and the people should receive Him and He us THE Word. Obviously, if the two (Jesus and His servants) are incongruent, always follow Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is always perfect, man is not. Jesus Christ won’t fail us, man can. I believe Jesus Christ leads His church. I believe if one of His servants fail us, He will not and He will take care of it, appointing another in their stead.
I would ask that you cite my “hypothetical” quotes from the church. Sure, there are times when I am being sarcastic, but it should be quite obvious when I’m doing that.

To give you an example, when Christ teaches to not trust in any man, even prophets, seers, and revelators. And He teaches that in multiple canon of scripture, and then Nelson comes out and says the following repeatedly. “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Direct quote btw)

I honestly don’t think I’m brushing with too broad of a brush stroke. I actually think things are far more sinister. I’m willing to study anything, and trust me, that has taken a lot of effort in trusting God to discern some insane stuff (not all true btw.)

And I do agree w/ your assessment of 3 Nephi… but the only time this has any validity is when they are holding up the light of Christ, when they teach His doctrine. That’s why I’m so damn adamant about the quote I noted above. They are teaching darkness, the exact opposite of what Christ taught. They are are not holding up a light, but leading and teaching darkness.
I would ask that you cite that direct quote from Russell M Nelson. I’m not saying it’s not a direct quote, I just couldn’t find it. I know the prophet and apostles have said we can trust them and that they will not lead us astray. They’ve never once claimed to be infallible. In fact, quite the opposite.

Three hypothetical quotes are in this thread. One of what you believe Jesus would never say, another of what you believe most members would say, and another what the TBM would say. If they’re sarcastic that doesn’t mean they’re not hypothetical quotes defining your opponent’s view to make your make.

I do find it somewhat ironic that you say Christ asks us not to trust in any man, then you proceed to tell me to trust you.

They are not teaching darkness. They are not teaching the exact opposite of what Jesus Christ taught. They are holding up the light of Jesus Christ. Their words are full of light and should be heeded. Did you watch Elder and Sister Hollands devotional from the other day?

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by cyclOps »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 12th, 2023, 5:07 am To move this discussion back to the OP. Does anyone have any thoughts about how the church defines the word “sustain”? This is really at the heart of this mental game. I’ve cited YWs manuals where it clearly teaches that to sustain is to obey. I have direct quotes from church presidents that say the exact same thing. On another thread it was shared that Renlund taught that to sustain is an oath and covenant to obey that leader. (That just blows my gasket, hence the icon w/ this thread: 🤯)

Can any of you honestly feel that the Lord would put these checks and gatekeepers between you and Him, especially when oaths and covenants are taken into consideration? I can’t think of a single verse of scripture where it was obvious the Lord wanted you to covenant with a man, but that is exactly what the church teaches.
When would sustaining Jesus Christ’s apostles not include heeding their words (obeying) ask Jesus told the people to do. If you sustain someone ask Jesus Christ’s servant, why would you not heed their words?

I believe it can be thought of as like an oath and like a covenant (not with the servant, but with Jesus Christ). Think about it, you’re raising your hand to indicate you sustain them as Jesus Christ’s servant. Is that not like an oath (promise and intent) that you will receive Jesus Christ’s servant and heed their words? The oath is not to them, it’s to Jesus Christ. It can also be thought of as a covenant (an oath between two parties). The covenant is not with them, it’s with Jesus Christ. This again sounds awfully familiar to D&C 84:36. (Weird that keeps coming up.) It’s actually like we’re making an oath and a covenant with Jesus Christ to receive His servants and He promises in return that we will receive Him.

So D&C 84:36 (part of what’s known as the oath and covenant), talks about receiving Jesus Christ’s servant (sustaining them, heeding their words), yet it’s thought of as near blasphemy that Elder Renlund would say sustaining Jesus Christ’s servant is like an oath and covenant?

Now, is it comparable to explicit covenants we make directly with God, accompanied with ordinances? It’s not quite like that type of covenant.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 8:51 am
I would ask that you cite that direct quote from Russell M Nelson. I’m not saying it’s not a direct quote, I just couldn’t find it. I know the prophet and apostles have said we can trust them and that they will not lead us astray. They’ve never once claimed to be infallible. In fact, quite the opposite.

Three hypothetical quotes are in this thread. One of what you believe Jesus would never say, another of what you believe most members would say, and another what the TBM would say. If they’re sarcastic that doesn’t mean they’re not hypothetical quotes defining your opponent’s view to make your make.

I do find it somewhat ironic that you say Christ asks us not to trust in any man, then you proceed to tell me to trust you.

They are not teaching darkness. They are not teaching the exact opposite of what Jesus Christ taught. They are holding up the light of Jesus Christ. Their words are full of light and should be heeded. Did you watch Elder and Sister Hollands devotional from the other day?
January 23, 2022 — Russell M. Nelson, European Area Devotional (Repeated on Feb. 2, 2022–California Area Conference)

"…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."

Oh, and if you think that expressing an opinion about others say is a "quote" then quote away. I have lots of opinions.

Also, you will never find a single instance in any of my essays or on this forum to "trust me." Not a single one in almost 9,000 posts. That's something you fabricated in your mind. Do I make a strong opinionate claim and present truth as I see it? Hell yeah, all day long.

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 8:57 am
When would sustaining Jesus Christ’s apostles not include heeding their words (obeying) ask Jesus told the people to do. If you sustain someone ask Jesus Christ’s servant, why would you not heed their words?

I believe it can be thought of as like an oath and like a covenant (not with the servant, but with Jesus Christ). Think about it, you’re raising your hand to indicate you sustain them as Jesus Christ’s servant. Is that not like an oath (promise and intent) that you will receive Jesus Christ’s servant and heed their words? The oath is not to them, it’s to Jesus Christ. It can also be thought of as a covenant (an oath between two parties). The covenant is not with them, it’s with Jesus Christ. This again sounds awfully familiar to D&C 84:36. (Weird that keeps coming up.) It’s actually like we’re making an oath and a covenant with Jesus Christ to receive His servants and He promises in return that we will receive Him.

So D&C 84:36 (part of what’s known as the oath and covenant), talks about receiving Jesus Christ’s servant (sustaining them, heeding their words), yet it’s thought of as near blasphemy that Elder Renlund would say sustaining Jesus Christ’s servant is like an oath and covenant?

Now, is it comparable to explicit covenants we make directly with God, accompanied with ordinances? It’s not quite like that type of covenant.
I agree only with this statement when it is tempered with "31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost."

The phrase "we can never lead you astray" and to trust them completely are contradictions to this doctrine. It is almost never accompanied by "but only when witnessed by the power of the Holy Ghost."

Your definition of "sustain" is not what church leaders teach btw. The manuals of the church teach that to "sustain" is to "obey." Good what it means to sustain and it is clearly taught on the church website.

Theses men teach duplicitous philosophies all the time. #HearHim > #Icanneverleadyouastray #trustuscompletely

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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by cyclOps »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 12th, 2023, 4:50 am I would ask that you cite my “hypothetical” quotes from the church. Sure, there are times when I am being sarcastic, but it should be quite obvious when I’m doing that.

To give you an example, when Christ teaches to not trust in any man, even prophets, seers, and revelators. And He teaches that in multiple canon of scripture, and then Nelson comes out and says the following repeatedly. “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Direct quote btw)

I honestly don’t think I’m brushing with too broad of a brush stroke. I actually think things are far more sinister. I’m willing to study anything, and trust me, that has taken a lot of effort in trusting God to discern some insane stuff (not all true btw.)

And I do agree w/ your assessment of 3 Nephi… but the only time this has any validity is when they are holding up the light of Christ, when they teach His doctrine. That’s why I’m so damn adamant about the quote I noted above. They are teaching darkness, the exact opposite of what Christ taught. They are are not holding up a light, but leading and teaching darkness.
I fabricated what you said? No. Reread what you said here. I have underlined it for you.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 11:06 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 12th, 2023, 4:50 am I would ask that you cite my “hypothetical” quotes from the church. Sure, there are times when I am being sarcastic, but it should be quite obvious when I’m doing that.

To give you an example, when Christ teaches to not trust in any man, even prophets, seers, and revelators. And He teaches that in multiple canon of scripture, and then Nelson comes out and says the following repeatedly. “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Direct quote btw)

I honestly don’t think I’m brushing with too broad of a brush stroke. I actually think things are far more sinister. I’m willing to study anything, and trust me, that has taken a lot of effort in trusting God to discern some insane stuff (not all true btw.)

And I do agree w/ your assessment of 3 Nephi… but the only time this has any validity is when they are holding up the light of Christ, when they teach His doctrine. That’s why I’m so damn adamant about the quote I noted above. They are teaching darkness, the exact opposite of what Christ taught. They are are not holding up a light, but leading and teaching darkness.
I fabricated what you said? No. Reread what you said here. I have underlined it for you.
Ok, what you are quoting is far different than, "hey everybody, believe what I am saying and follow me."

It's a form of diction that strives for honesty.

But good for you in finding that combination of words.

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cyclOps
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by cyclOps »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 12th, 2023, 11:19 am
cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 11:06 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 12th, 2023, 4:50 am I would ask that you cite my “hypothetical” quotes from the church. Sure, there are times when I am being sarcastic, but it should be quite obvious when I’m doing that.

To give you an example, when Christ teaches to not trust in any man, even prophets, seers, and revelators. And He teaches that in multiple canon of scripture, and then Nelson comes out and says the following repeatedly. “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Direct quote btw)

I honestly don’t think I’m brushing with too broad of a brush stroke. I actually think things are far more sinister. I’m willing to study anything, and trust me, that has taken a lot of effort in trusting God to discern some insane stuff (not all true btw.)

And I do agree w/ your assessment of 3 Nephi… but the only time this has any validity is when they are holding up the light of Christ, when they teach His doctrine. That’s why I’m so damn adamant about the quote I noted above. They are teaching darkness, the exact opposite of what Christ taught. They are are not holding up a light, but leading and teaching darkness.
I fabricated what you said? No. Reread what you said here. I have underlined it for you.
Ok, what you are quoting is far different than, "hey everybody, believe what I am saying and follow me."

It's a form of diction that strives for honesty.

But good for you in finding that combination of words.
Yes, I understand.

The point, for me, is one of willfully ignorant perception. You are nitpicking, so I’m pointing out that it can go both ways. We should give others the same leeway that we give ourselves.

All you heard from randomly scrolling in Elder and Sister Holland’s devotional was “living prophet”, and that was enough for you, so you disregard the rest. What if I randomly scrolled in your posts and all I read was “trust me”?

Nothing personal, and I’m not trying to be contentious. I appreciate the discussion.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 1:11 pm The point, for me, is one of willfully ignorant perception. You are nitpicking, so I’m pointing out that it can go both ways. We should give others the same leeway that we give ourselves.

All you heard from randomly scrolling in Elder and Sister Holland’s devotional was “living prophet”, and that was enough for you, so you disregard the rest. What if I randomly scrolled in your posts and all I read was “trust me”?

Nothing personal, and I’m not trying to be contentious. I appreciate the discussion.
Breaking the first of the ten commandments isn't nitpicking. But it's all in how you perceive the actions and teaching of the church. I have learned so much in the past year that I'll never look at the church the same ever again. And I don't expect anyone here to understand how God had written His words upon my heart.

BTW, I've learned not to take things too personally. What you've said is mild in comparison to some former friends and church leaders.

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Silver Pie
seeker after Christ
Posts: 8989
Location: In the state that doesn't exist

Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Silver Pie »

Cruiserdude wrote: January 12th, 2023, 12:33 am No way.... Please tell me this part is real??! 🤣🤣🤣
I heard it on reddit or here, I think. It was some years ago. I thought it was pretty weird. "I hereby rescind my official blessing because I'm irritated at the fact you're visiting with each other." Something like that.



I still thought there was some GA that got upset that people weren't standing for him, but the details are too fuzzy for me to look it up.

Pseudonym
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Pseudonym »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:12 pm
Pseudonym wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:39 am The lack of transparency in simple things, like finances, should at minimum be a great cause for concern.
Why?
If you’ve never questioned that or see the need for it, then any response I give would simply be water off a duck’s back. It wouldn’t matter to you. This dives deep into the misappropriation of sacred funds, as well as requiring an incorrect tithe.
First off – If someone is not a current tithing payer – I do not believe you have a dog in the fight in order to complain about anything – unless you believe that the Church should lose its tax-exempt status – and it has already been audited and cleared many times. Those that criticize the church have no empirical evidence that any law has been broken. I do not believe that can provide a more reputable organization or and organization that gets more out of its contributions than does the LDS Church.

As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.

The Church announces publicly that there are no irregularities – period. This is another action of transparency that if incorrect does leaves the church open to class actions lawsuits. Who else is more transparent about 3rd party audits?

One last point – I have been a contributor to the LDS Church for over 70 years. In the course of that time the church has openly and publicly asked the rank and file member to contribute less as a percentage of their income. I do not know of any other charity (or even a non-charity) that has done that with their contributors and I suspect than no one here can provide me with a single counter example.

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Lizzy60 »

Silver Pie wrote: January 12th, 2023, 4:23 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 12th, 2023, 12:33 am No way.... Please tell me this part is real??! 🤣🤣🤣
I heard it on reddit or here, I think. It was some years ago. I thought it was pretty weird. "I hereby rescind my official blessing because I'm irritated at the fact you're visiting with each other." Something like that.



I still thought there was some GA that got upset that people weren't standing for him, but the details are too fuzzy for me to look it up.
——————————————————————————-
Official revocation of an Apostolic blessing
03-31-2012, 06:13 PM
I saw this happen for the first time in my life a few weeks ago. David A Bednar visited the St Louis stake conference. Two special Q&A sessions were held for the YSA on Friday night and Saturday morning for the youth. I took my teenage daughters to the Friday night meeting because they were busy Saturday morning.

At the end of the meeting Elder Bednar left an Apostolic blessing on those in attendance. After the meeting, a line formed to shake his hand. Apparently the people in the stake center chapel were too loud, because he went to the podium and rebuked everyone for failing to maintain reverence in the chapel. He then said the apostolic blessing he had just given was null and void and was effectively revoked.

Crazy stuff.
——————————————————————————
From: https://www.cougarstadium.com/forum/non ... c-blessing

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Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Pseudonym wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:34 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:12 pm
Pseudonym wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:39 am The lack of transparency in simple things, like finances, should at minimum be a great cause for concern.
Why?
If you’ve never questioned that or see the need for it, then any response I give would simply be water off a duck’s back. It wouldn’t matter to you. This dives deep into the misappropriation of sacred funds, as well as requiring an incorrect tithe.
First off – If someone is not a current tithing payer – I do not believe you have a dog in the fight in order to complain about anything – unless you believe that the Church should lose its tax-exempt status – and it has already been audited and cleared many times. Those that criticize the church have no empirical evidence that any law has been broken. I do not believe that can provide a more reputable organization or and organization that gets more out of its contributions than does the LDS Church.

As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.

The Church announces publicly that there are no irregularities – period. This is another action of transparency that if incorrect does leaves the church open to class actions lawsuits. Who else is more transparent about 3rd party audits?

One last point – I have been a contributor to the LDS Church for over 70 years. In the course of that time the church has openly and publicly asked the rank and file member to contribute less as a percentage of their income. I do not know of any other charity (or even a non-charity) that has done that with their contributors and I suspect than no one here can provide me with a single counter example.
Uh… I’m not sure how to respond, or even if should. Good luck with your tithes my friend.

TwochurchesOnly
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1224

Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:40 pm
Silver Pie wrote: January 12th, 2023, 4:23 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: January 12th, 2023, 12:33 am No way.... Please tell me this part is real??! 🤣🤣🤣
I heard it on reddit or here, I think. It was some years ago. I thought it was pretty weird. "I hereby rescind my official blessing because I'm irritated at the fact you're visiting with each other." Something like that.



I still thought there was some GA that got upset that people weren't standing for him, but the details are too fuzzy for me to look it up.
——————————————————————————-
Official revocation of an Apostolic blessing
03-31-2012, 06:13 PM
I saw this happen for the first time in my life a few weeks ago. David A Bednar visited the St Louis stake conference. Two special Q&A sessions were held for the YSA on Friday night and Saturday morning for the youth. I took my teenage daughters to the Friday night meeting because they were busy Saturday morning.

At the end of the meeting Elder Bednar left an Apostolic blessing on those in attendance. After the meeting, a line formed to shake his hand. Apparently the people in the stake center chapel were too loud, because he went to the podium and rebuked everyone for failing to maintain reverence in the chapel. He then said the apostolic blessing he had just given was null and void and was effectively revoked.

Crazy stuff.
——————————————————————————
From: https://www.cougarstadium.com/forum/non ... c-blessing
2012- wow
Freak show!!
That had to cause a few people to wake up!!

bbrown
captain of 100
Posts: 929

Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by bbrown »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 8:57 am

When would sustaining Jesus Christ’s apostles not include heeding their words (obeying) ask Jesus told the people to do. If you sustain someone ask Jesus Christ’s servant, why would you not heed their words?

I believe it can be thought of as like an oath and like a covenant (not with the servant, but with Jesus Christ). Think about it, you’re raising your hand to indicate you sustain them as Jesus Christ’s servant. Is that not like an oath (promise and intent) that you will receive Jesus Christ’s servant and heed their words? The oath is not to them, it’s to Jesus Christ. It can also be thought of as a covenant (an oath between two parties). The covenant is not with them, it’s with Jesus Christ. This again sounds awfully familiar to D&C 84:36. (Weird that keeps coming up.) It’s actually like we’re making an oath and a covenant with Jesus Christ to receive His servants and He promises in return that we will receive Him.

So D&C 84:36 (part of what’s known as the oath and covenant), talks about receiving Jesus Christ’s servant (sustaining them, heeding their words), yet it’s thought of as near blasphemy that Elder Renlund would say sustaining Jesus Christ’s servant is like an oath and covenant?

Now, is it comparable to explicit covenants we make directly with God, accompanied with ordinances? It’s not quite like that type of covenant.
Nope this is not what he said. I sat in the room. The 70 harped and harped on this all weekend explained it in no uncertain terms. To sustain is to make and oath and a covenant to obey all that leader (any leader, no mention of Jesus Christ) says. He used terms like their ideas become your ideas, their goals become your goals, i took notes but im not going to go look up all the ways he described this. Renlund gave his approval of everything the 70 said every time he spoke and in his last talk of the weekend he repeated oath and covenant to do everything they tell you, their ideas become your ideas etc three times. And he repeated it once more at the end of his talk. There was no ambiguity in his statements. As I said in the other thread these things (oath bound covenants to men) are forbidden of the Lord

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