Power trip 🤯

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

bbrown wrote: January 12th, 2023, 11:44 pm
Nope this is not what he said. I sat in the room. The 70 harped and harped on this all weekend explained it in no uncertain terms. To sustain is to make and oath and a covenant to obey all that leader (any leader, no mention of Jesus Christ) says. He used terms like their ideas become your ideas, their goals become your goals, i took notes but im not going to go look up all the ways he described this. Renlund gave his approval of everything the 70 said every time he spoke and in his last talk of the weekend he repeated oath and covenant to do everything they tell you, their ideas become your ideas etc three times. And he repeated it once more at the end of his talk. There was no ambiguity in his statements. As I said in the other thread these things (oath bound covenants to men) are forbidden of the Lord
As someone who has stepped outside of the Mormon utopia, I can’t believe a person claiming the title of a shepherd would make any such statement, but that’s how deep this conditioning goes, beginning from the time a child is born. That’s how awful and sinister the “Follow the Prophet” song really is.

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Mindfields
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Mindfields »

Pseudonym wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:34 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:12 pm
Pseudonym wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:39 am The lack of transparency in simple things, like finances, should at minimum be a great cause for concern.
Why?
If you’ve never questioned that or see the need for it, then any response I give would simply be water off a duck’s back. It wouldn’t matter to you. This dives deep into the misappropriation of sacred funds, as well as requiring an incorrect tithe.
First off – If someone is not a current tithing payer – I do not believe you have a dog in the fight in order to complain about anything – unless you believe that the Church should lose its tax-exempt status – and it has already been audited and cleared many times. Those that criticize the church have no empirical evidence that any law has been broken. I do not believe that can provide a more reputable organization or and organization that gets more out of its contributions than does the LDS Church.

As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.

The Church announces publicly that there are no irregularities – period. This is another action of transparency that if incorrect does leaves the church open to class actions lawsuits. Who else is more transparent about 3rd party audits?

One last point – I have been a contributor to the LDS Church for over 70 years. In the course of that time the church has openly and publicly asked the rank and file member to contribute less as a percentage of their income. I do not know of any other charity (or even a non-charity) that has done that with their contributors and I suspect than no one here can provide me with a single counter example.
[As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.]

Either you're extremely naive or just being sarcastic. I hope it's the later. Spend five minutes googling religious financial transparency and you'll discover the Mormon church is about as financially transparent as a brick wall.
Last edited by Mindfields on January 13th, 2023, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cyclOps
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by cyclOps »

bbrown wrote: January 12th, 2023, 11:44 pm
cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 8:57 am

When would sustaining Jesus Christ’s apostles not include heeding their words (obeying) ask Jesus told the people to do. If you sustain someone ask Jesus Christ’s servant, why would you not heed their words?

I believe it can be thought of as like an oath and like a covenant (not with the servant, but with Jesus Christ). Think about it, you’re raising your hand to indicate you sustain them as Jesus Christ’s servant. Is that not like an oath (promise and intent) that you will receive Jesus Christ’s servant and heed their words? The oath is not to them, it’s to Jesus Christ. It can also be thought of as a covenant (an oath between two parties). The covenant is not with them, it’s with Jesus Christ. This again sounds awfully familiar to D&C 84:36. (Weird that keeps coming up.) It’s actually like we’re making an oath and a covenant with Jesus Christ to receive His servants and He promises in return that we will receive Him.

So D&C 84:36 (part of what’s known as the oath and covenant), talks about receiving Jesus Christ’s servant (sustaining them, heeding their words), yet it’s thought of as near blasphemy that Elder Renlund would say sustaining Jesus Christ’s servant is like an oath and covenant?

Now, is it comparable to explicit covenants we make directly with God, accompanied with ordinances? It’s not quite like that type of covenant.
Nope this is not what he said. I sat in the room. The 70 harped and harped on this all weekend explained it in no uncertain terms. To sustain is to make and oath and a covenant to obey all that leader (any leader, no mention of Jesus Christ) says. He used terms like their ideas become your ideas, their goals become your goals, i took notes but im not going to go look up all the ways he described this. Renlund gave his approval of everything the 70 said every time he spoke and in his last talk of the weekend he repeated oath and covenant to do everything they tell you, their ideas become your ideas etc three times. And he repeated it once more at the end of his talk. There was no ambiguity in his statements. As I said in the other thread these things (oath bound covenants to men) are forbidden of the Lord
It would seem your perspective on whatever was said must be yielded to since you’re the only one that knows exactly what he said (but not even then). This is why I’ve said I like dealing with specifics, details, quotes. Until we have that, how can it be discussed in any meaningful way? At this point, we would only be commenting and discussing through your filter and perspective.

Pseudonym
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Pseudonym »

Mindfields wrote: January 13th, 2023, 7:02 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:34 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:12 pm
Pseudonym wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:52 pm

Why?
If you’ve never questioned that or see the need for it, then any response I give would simply be water off a duck’s back. It wouldn’t matter to you. This dives deep into the misappropriation of sacred funds, as well as requiring an incorrect tithe.
First off – If someone is not a current tithing payer – I do not believe you have a dog in the fight in order to complain about anything – unless you believe that the Church should lose its tax-exempt status – and it has already been audited and cleared many times. Those that criticize the church have no empirical evidence that any law has been broken. I do not believe that can provide a more reputable organization or and organization that gets more out of its contributions than does the LDS Church.

As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.

The Church announces publicly that there are no irregularities – period. This is another action of transparency that if incorrect does leaves the church open to class actions lawsuits. Who else is more transparent about 3rd party audits?

One last point – I have been a contributor to the LDS Church for over 70 years. In the course of that time the church has openly and publicly asked the rank and file member to contribute less as a percentage of their income. I do not know of any other charity (or even a non-charity) that has done that with their contributors and I suspect than no one here can provide me with a single counter example.
[As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.]

Either you're extremely naive or just being sarcastic. I hope it's the later. Spend five minutes googling religious financial transparency and you discover the Mormon church is about as financially transparent as a brick wall.
Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Pseudonym wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:33 am Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?
Please show me where the church presents its detailed audit reports.

4Joshua8
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by 4Joshua8 »

Pseudonym wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:33 am
Mindfields wrote: January 13th, 2023, 7:02 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:34 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:12 pm

If you’ve never questioned that or see the need for it, then any response I give would simply be water off a duck’s back. It wouldn’t matter to you. This dives deep into the misappropriation of sacred funds, as well as requiring an incorrect tithe.
First off – If someone is not a current tithing payer – I do not believe you have a dog in the fight in order to complain about anything – unless you believe that the Church should lose its tax-exempt status – and it has already been audited and cleared many times. Those that criticize the church have no empirical evidence that any law has been broken. I do not believe that can provide a more reputable organization or and organization that gets more out of its contributions than does the LDS Church.

As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.

The Church announces publicly that there are no irregularities – period. This is another action of transparency that if incorrect does leaves the church open to class actions lawsuits. Who else is more transparent about 3rd party audits?

One last point – I have been a contributor to the LDS Church for over 70 years. In the course of that time the church has openly and publicly asked the rank and file member to contribute less as a percentage of their income. I do not know of any other charity (or even a non-charity) that has done that with their contributors and I suspect than no one here can provide me with a single counter example.
[As for transparency – I would challenge anyone to provide a more transparent organization. The LDS Church has 3rd party independent and licensed accounting firms perform independent audits yearly. Other organizations will have such audits on occasions but seldom (unless legal action is involved) are transparent that such audits have taken place let alone the audit results.]

Either you're extremely naive or just being sarcastic. I hope it's the later. Spend five minutes googling religious financial transparency and you discover the Mormon church is about as financially transparent as a brick wall.
Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?
I want to know where my money donations go. What specifically did I pay for. Not just a range of possibilities, but what specifically. I want to be able to earmark each donation and have reason to trust that the money is used for that purpose.

The church isn't transparent financially, because it reports in generalities and says that it can use the funds for any purpose it decides. That needs to change.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Silver Pie »

Lizzy60 wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:40 pm ——————————————————————————-
Official revocation of an Apostolic blessing
03-31-2012, 06:13 PM
I saw this happen for the first time in my life a few weeks ago. David A Bednar visited the St Louis stake conference. Two special Q&A sessions were held for the YSA on Friday night and Saturday morning for the youth. I took my teenage daughters to the Friday night meeting because they were busy Saturday morning.

At the end of the meeting Elder Bednar left an Apostolic blessing on those in attendance. After the meeting, a line formed to shake his hand. Apparently the people in the stake center chapel were too loud, because he went to the podium and rebuked everyone for failing to maintain reverence in the chapel. He then said the apostolic blessing he had just given was null and void and was effectively revoked.

Crazy stuff.
——————————————————————————
From: https://www.cougarstadium.com/forum/non ... c-blessing
That's it.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Silver Pie »

Mindfields wrote: January 13th, 2023, 7:02 amSpend five minutes googling religious financial transparency and you discover the Mormon church is about as financially transparent as a brick wall.
You got it. I would venture to say that every single legally organized Christian religion is more transparent than the LDS Church.

Hinckley told 60 Minutes that their books weren't open to the general public, but that the members knew how the money was spent, etc. He didn't use those words. I forget the exact words, but that was the meaning. I watched that, and knew that he was lying (and I was full-believing TBM at the time). We have no idea how much money the Corp gets nor where the income goes (except for the occasional news article, which nonmembers also can read). Now, if you live in Canada, there's some transparency because Canadian law requires it.

But, like was said, should I care what they do with their money since my tithing goes to help the poor instead of to a Church (TM)? Other than harming the poor and hungry (especially in third world countries, or whatever they're called now), I guess I shouldn't?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

What surprises me is how Pseudonym considered that list of things they outlined as "transparency". It's all a facade, the appearance of righteousness... err, I mean, transparency. Whatever, it's all the same.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Silver Pie »

I'm looking up oath-like. I found this:

Pres Nelson as an apostle - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
The ways of the Lord are different from the ways of man. Man’s ways remove people from office or business when they grow old or become disabled. But man’s ways are not and never will be the Lord’s ways. Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Silver Pie wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:40 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: January 12th, 2023, 9:40 pm ——————————————————————————-
Official revocation of an Apostolic blessing
03-31-2012, 06:13 PM
I saw this happen for the first time in my life a few weeks ago. David A Bednar visited the St Louis stake conference. Two special Q&A sessions were held for the YSA on Friday night and Saturday morning for the youth. I took my teenage daughters to the Friday night meeting because they were busy Saturday morning.

At the end of the meeting Elder Bednar left an Apostolic blessing on those in attendance. After the meeting, a line formed to shake his hand. Apparently the people in the stake center chapel were too loud, because he went to the podium and rebuked everyone for failing to maintain reverence in the chapel. He then said the apostolic blessing he had just given was null and void and was effectively revoked.

Crazy stuff.
——————————————————————————
From: https://www.cougarstadium.com/forum/non ... c-blessing
That's it.
Ok
So I looked at the link to cougarstadium forum
For an hour(!)
Some very funny comments from 2012
Happy Friday !!

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Silver Pie wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:59 pm I'm looking up oath-like. I found this:

Pres Nelson as an apostle - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
The ways of the Lord are different from the ways of man. Man’s ways remove people from office or business when they grow old or become disabled. But man’s ways are not and never will be the Lord’s ways. Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.
Oh, oh... how in the world... did... we get here...

Pseudonym
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Pseudonym »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:41 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:33 am Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?
Please show me where the church presents its detailed audit reports.
Show me where anyone (including yourself that pretends to believe in transparency) provides exactly what you are asking for.

Pseudonym
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Pseudonym »

4Joshua8 wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:45 am
I want to know where my money donations go. What specifically did I pay for. Not just a range of possibilities, but what specifically. I want to be able to earmark each donation and have reason to trust that the money is used for that purpose.

The church isn't transparent financially, because it reports in generalities and says that it can use the funds for any purpose it decides. That needs to change.
Please provide an example - of where you donate.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Pseudonym wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:41 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:33 am Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?
Please show me where the church presents its detailed audit reports.
Show me where anyone (including yourself that pretends to believe in transparency) provides exactly what you are asking for.
You're deflecting. We're talking about your tithes. You should know what happens to the money. Just knowing that you didn't answer the question means you have no idea what happens to most of the money. Sure, they give you a few "feel good" breadcrumbs like in this past GC... but overall, the church is silent on what they do with sacred funds.

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Momma J
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Momma J »

Pseudonym wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:39 am The lack of transparency in simple things, like finances, should at minimum be a great cause for concern.
Why?
And I ask, "Why Not?"
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
As such, if tithes are appropriated in a manner that is indeed following the 13th Article of Faith, I see absolutely no reason to avoid transparency.

I have always believed that TRUTH is out in the open... Deceit hides in the shadows.

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gkearney
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by gkearney »

Pseudonym wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:41 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:33 am Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?
Please show me where the church presents its detailed audit reports.
Show me where anyone (including yourself that pretends to believe in transparency) provides exactly what you are asking for.
The Community of Christ (RLDS) publishes detailed bookkeeping information every year with details on income and expenses.

Pseudonym
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Pseudonym »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:18 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:41 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:33 am Really, Google is your reliable source of what is trusted transparency?
Please show me where the church presents its detailed audit reports.
Show me where anyone (including yourself that pretends to believe in transparency) provides exactly what you are asking for.
You're deflecting. We're talking about your tithes. You should know what happens to the money. Just knowing that you didn't answer the question means you have no idea what happens to most of the money. Sure, they give you a few "feel good" breadcrumbs like in this past GC... but overall, the church is silent on what they do with sacred funds.
I have a very good idea where the money goes. Tithing is for operation of the church. There are costs to run a large international operation, and this is done with 10% donations of less than 40% of the members and most of the members that pay tithing come from individuals that we in the USA consider poor. I honestly do not understand why you are anyone wants to know how much is spent on daffodils or tulips for landscaping of temples or how much of your personal tithing is spent on wire for springs for the Churches mattresses at their welfare mattress manufacturing facility.

I do know that most affluent member are like yourself and do not tithe but rather make excuses. If the church is really about power – where is the proof of funds spent for personal power worth? The truth is that any person in position of authority in this church deals with and spend most of their time trying to help someone overcome various individual problems (including how to live within their means). The general authorities that oversee how the money is spent could accumulate much more money and power for themselves elsewhere and for all the criticism of general authorities there is no empirical evidence that anyone abuses donated monies for their personal aggrandizement – remains in authority. Our current president and prophet is a retired world recognized expert in heart surgery that has lived his entire life far below his financial means and the means of surgeons much less qualified than himself.

The argument that President Nelson is on a power trip with donated funds is without any substance or evidence. Anyone can fudge a detailed ledger – case in point is all the political nonsense associated with COVID funding. There are at least 12 new billionaires in the USA from the political applications of the COVID vaccine (which BTW is not really a vaccine). There are no new millionaires (based on personal worth) in the world because they became LDS general authorities. The arguments of this thread are much to do about nothing!

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Pseudonym wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:18 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:18 am
Pseudonym wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:14 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 13th, 2023, 10:41 am
Please show me where the church presents its detailed audit reports.
Show me where anyone (including yourself that pretends to believe in transparency) provides exactly what you are asking for.
You're deflecting. We're talking about your tithes. You should know what happens to the money. Just knowing that you didn't answer the question means you have no idea what happens to most of the money. Sure, they give you a few "feel good" breadcrumbs like in this past GC... but overall, the church is silent on what they do with sacred funds.
I have a very good idea where the money goes. Tithing is for operation of the church. There are costs to run a large international operation, and this is done with 10% donations of less than 40% of the members and most of the members that pay tithing come from individuals that we in the USA consider poor. I honestly do not understand why you are anyone wants to know how much is spent on daffodils or tulips for landscaping of temples or how much of your personal tithing is spent on wire for springs for the Churches mattresses at their welfare mattress manufacturing facility.

I do know that most affluent member are like yourself and do not tithe but rather make excuses. If the church is really about power – where is the proof of funds spent for personal power worth? The truth is that any person in position of authority in this church deals with and spend most of their time trying to help someone overcome various individual problems (including how to live within their means). The general authorities that oversee how the money is spent could accumulate much more money and power for themselves elsewhere and for all the criticism of general authorities there is no empirical evidence that anyone abuses donated monies for their personal aggrandizement – remains in authority. Our current president and prophet is a retired world recognized expert in heart surgery that has lived his entire life far below his financial means and the means of surgeons much less qualified than himself.

The argument that President Nelson is on a power trip with donated funds is without any substance or evidence. Anyone can fudge a detailed ledger – case in point is all the political nonsense associated with COVID funding. There are at least 12 new billionaires in the USA from the political applications of the COVID vaccine (which BTW is not really a vaccine). There are no new millionaires (based on personal worth) in the world because they became LDS general authorities. The arguments of this thread are much to do about nothing!
So… you’re guessing, that’s all you can actually prove.

And, btw, while I am not poor I am also not affluent. I strive to be wise in how I spent my money. And I give my tithes to the poor. Oh, and I do not consider myself a member. My records will be removed this year.

Also, you actually have no idea if there are any millionaires due to church position. There is no way for you to factually make that claim. If I received an estimated $150k stipend, then yes, there’s a very real possibility that some leaders have become millionaires.

Pseudonym
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Pseudonym »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 4:26 am ......

So… you’re guessing, that’s all you can actually prove.

And, btw, while I am not poor I am also not affluent. I strive to be wise in how I spent my money. And I give my tithes to the poor. Oh, and I do not consider myself a member. My records will be removed this year.

Also, you actually have no idea if there are any millionaires due to church position. There is no way for you to factually make that claim. If I received an estimated $150k stipend, then yes, there’s a very real possibility that some leaders have become millionaires.
I am not guessing – I have known several general authorities personally. Some are much better off than others because of earning power prior to their calling. For example, the private home (estate) of Hugh B Brown was much nicer than the surprising little private home (estate) of Thomas S Monson – even though the Church was much wealthier when President Monson served in a “higher” calling position.

I have also done work among the poor in my area where I would guess that as high as 85% are autistic and have developed other mental issues and higher percentages are alcohol and drug addicted. I seriously doubt that you tithe (meaning 10%) of your income directly to the poor. First off gifts of money to others is likely not deductible for what I think is your income. In addition, like so many liberals that think money solves everything - money is more likely to create problems for those suffering mental issues combined with serious addictions. More than money they need food, housing and medical assistance and not from a distance but from someone involved in helping them with day-to-day decisions.

I personally do not have the patience, but I am wise enough to realize that there are some that can be far more effective than me dealing directly with the poor – so I support them with my donations and give of my time and efforts as I can and under their direction and instruction – often behind the scenes.

From your post, it is obvious to me that it is you that is guessing from a position of ignorance and little if any experience. Most general authorities travel almost every week and the stipend you think of as an estimate hardly covers travel and living expenses. I traveled a great deal with my little consulting business and if my travel expenses were included in my income would more than double my actual income beyond $150K (which you think is so excessive) and make paying my taxes almost impossible. What you called a stipend estimate is essentially a guess and likely includes deductible expenses on their tax return. But I do not know because you have not presented the detail of what general authority receives that stipend along with their expences. Which I find odd because you say you do not trust references to money that does not give exact details of both income and expenses.

I am also a strong believer in divine “Agency” and allow you to believe and pursue whatever you wish. However, if you pursue a course of being judgmental and critical of others – I personally believe you ought to have much better evidence than the innuendo you are presenting.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Pseudonym wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:07 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 4:26 am ......

So… you’re guessing, that’s all you can actually prove.

And, btw, while I am not poor I am also not affluent. I strive to be wise in how I spent my money. And I give my tithes to the poor. Oh, and I do not consider myself a member. My records will be removed this year.

Also, you actually have no idea if there are any millionaires due to church position. There is no way for you to factually make that claim. If I received an estimated $150k stipend, then yes, there’s a very real possibility that some leaders have become millionaires.
I am not guessing – I have known several general authorities personally. Some are much better off than others because of earning power prior to their calling. For example, the private home (estate) of Hugh B Brown was much nicer than the surprising little private home (estate) of Thomas S Monson – even though the Church was much wealthier when President Monson served in a “higher” calling position.

I have also done work among the poor in my area where I would guess that as high as 85% are autistic and have developed other mental issues and higher percentages are alcohol and drug addicted. I seriously doubt that you tithe (meaning 10%) of your income directly to the poor. First off gifts of money to others is likely not deductible for what I think is your income. In addition, like so many liberals that think money solves everything - money is more likely to create problems for those suffering mental issues combined with serious addictions. More than money they need food, housing and medical assistance and not from a distance but from someone involved in helping them with day-to-day decisions.

I personally do not have the patience, but I am wise enough to realize that there are some that can be far more effective than me dealing directly with the poor – so I support them with my donations and give of my time and efforts as I can and under their direction and instruction – often behind the scenes.

From your post, it is obvious to me that it is you that is guessing from a position of ignorance and little if any experience. Most general authorities travel almost every week and the stipend you think of as an estimate hardly covers travel and living expenses. I traveled a great deal with my little consulting business and if my travel expenses were included in my income would more than double my actual income beyond $150K (which you think is so excessive) and make paying my taxes almost impossible. What you called a stipend estimate is essentially a guess and likely includes deductible expenses on their tax return. But I do not know because you have not presented the detail of what general authority receives that stipend along with their expences. Which I find odd because you say you do not trust references to money that does not give exact details of both income and expenses.

I am also a strong believer in divine “Agency” and allow you to believe and pursue whatever you wish. However, if you pursue a course of being judgmental and critical of others – I personally believe you ought to have much better evidence than the innuendo you are presenting.
I maintain strongly that the ldscorp is not financially transparent, and we even have solid evidence it is funding anti-christian causes. However feel free to change my mind and debunk me by providing the public link that shows the entire balance sheet and holdings of the church. Until you do that, you are conceding they are not transparent.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

cyclOps wrote: January 12th, 2023, 8:51 am
I would ask that you cite that direct quote from Russell M Nelson. I’m not saying it’s not a direct quote, I just couldn’t find it. I know the prophet and apostles have said we can trust them and that they will not lead us astray. They’ve never once claimed to be infallible. In fact, quite the opposite.
It's true that they like to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand it's 'follow the prophet', on the other when the members do follow and it turns into a dumpster fire, they've got the convenient escape clause 'hey, we're not infallible, he wasn't speaking as a prophet at that particular moment', etc. I suspect we'll see Nelson doing this little tap dance very soon regarding the jab as more and more immune systems collapse and more and more bodies start piling up...

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Pseudonym wrote: January 25th, 2023, 12:07 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 24th, 2023, 4:26 am ......

So… you’re guessing, that’s all you can actually prove.

And, btw, while I am not poor I am also not affluent. I strive to be wise in how I spent my money. And I give my tithes to the poor. Oh, and I do not consider myself a member. My records will be removed this year.

Also, you actually have no idea if there are any millionaires due to church position. There is no way for you to factually make that claim. If I received an estimated $150k stipend, then yes, there’s a very real possibility that some leaders have become millionaires.
I am not guessing – I have known several general authorities personally. Some are much better off than others because of earning power prior to their calling. For example, the private home (estate) of Hugh B Brown was much nicer than the surprising little private home (estate) of Thomas S Monson – even though the Church was much wealthier when President Monson served in a “higher” calling position.

I have also done work among the poor in my area where I would guess that as high as 85% are autistic and have developed other mental issues and higher percentages are alcohol and drug addicted. I seriously doubt that you tithe (meaning 10%) of your income directly to the poor. First off gifts of money to others is likely not deductible for what I think is your income. In addition, like so many liberals that think money solves everything - money is more likely to create problems for those suffering mental issues combined with serious addictions. More than money they need food, housing and medical assistance and not from a distance but from someone involved in helping them with day-to-day decisions.

I personally do not have the patience, but I am wise enough to realize that there are some that can be far more effective than me dealing directly with the poor – so I support them with my donations and give of my time and efforts as I can and under their direction and instruction – often behind the scenes.

From your post, it is obvious to me that it is you that is guessing from a position of ignorance and little if any experience. Most general authorities travel almost every week and the stipend you think of as an estimate hardly covers travel and living expenses. I traveled a great deal with my little consulting business and if my travel expenses were included in my income would more than double my actual income beyond $150K (which you think is so excessive) and make paying my taxes almost impossible. What you called a stipend estimate is essentially a guess and likely includes deductible expenses on their tax return. But I do not know because you have not presented the detail of what general authority receives that stipend along with their expences. Which I find odd because you say you do not trust references to money that does not give exact details of both income and expenses.

I am also a strong believer in divine “Agency” and allow you to believe and pursue whatever you wish. However, if you pursue a course of being judgmental and critical of others – I personally believe you ought to have much better evidence than the innuendo you are presenting.
Christ taught us to judge the fruits of men. He also taught us to question all authority, even church leaders. I don’t need to present “evidence” because almost none exists. There is no transparency. That’s the whole point. Anyway.. I wish you well.

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Thinker
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Thinker »

Cruiserdude wrote: January 12th, 2023, 12:33 am
Silver Pie wrote: January 11th, 2023, 8:24 pmDidn't Bednar throw a major fit when people got up to leave without waiting for him? Or maybe that was because they started talking to each other instead of worshiping him - he withdrew the apostolic blessing he'd given them....
No way.... Please tell me this part is real??! 🤣🤣🤣
😂 Maybe he has a split personality? Psychological shadow in jekyll and hyde…
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Re: Power trip 🤯

Post by Thinker »

Pseudonym wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:34 am There is a saying that nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so.

To those that think such is a power trip – it says more about them and how they think than the individual they reference. For me to speak to this from my point of view – such would be an extremely unwanted burden that would cause great humility and concern. Personally I am of the mind that every one is responsible for their place and how they interpret it – especially to be honest to themselves about who they are and what they do. Worrying about who someone else is and what they do is flawed for so many reasons it would be impossible to list even a part. It is what we think and do that determines what is important – or should be the most important to us.
Valid and important points to keep in mind.

It depends on where we’re coming from.

1) If someone just realized they were being abused, gaslighted & blamed for others abusing them - for all their lives, it’s understandable to be ANGRY and seek justice. Anger does serve a purpose as impetus to positive, needed change.

2) If someone is currently being abused or harmed by another and blamed for trying to stop it as if the abuse & stopping it are all their fault rather than the abuser’s, then that someone may not be in the position yet to focus only on their own responsibility. They need to recognize others’ responsibility to stop the abuse.

3) Imagine someone has gone through the steps of grieving the loss of an illusion (mistakenly believing an abuser could do no wrong). They stopped the abuse by maintaining healthy boundaries so abuse can no longer affect them, though it may indirectly affect them if one cannot completely break away from all related abuse… THEN, that someone may be in a position to let go of past pain & focus on their own response-ability to their well-being. It can be empowering to not waste energy focusing on others but rather focus & act on what we actually have control over (ourselves). Still, ideally our priority is always God & we defend truth when needed.

I’d say these steps are not exactly linear but maybe cyclical and mixed - but generally it may help to understand what many members are experiencing in realizing the church isn’t what they were led to believe.

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