Timeline of Infallibility

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Reluctant Watchman
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Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I thought I had started a thread on this when I originally created this timeline. But I guess I didn't after a fair amount of searching. So, without further adieu, here is my timeline of any and all instances I could find of when the brethren have said that they "can never lead us astray" or when they have never made a mistake, or when we should follow them without question.

Some of you can debate the philosophy of what this pronouncement means, but I don't care to discuss it.

What I am interested in is if you have any additional quotes that I can add to this list. Please share them if you do.

Here's the Timeline link:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... f-prophets

And here's that link in a quote so you don't have to scroll endlessly... :)
So how did we get to where we are today with the infallibility doctrine of the church? Was it a one-off statement by a rogue church leader, or has it been a consistent message over time? After much searching, I compiled the following list of over 100 instances in major church publications. There is a noticeable gap after Brigham Young, and I believe that is only due to a lack of access to church documents. Otherwise, this list would be far more extensive.

The idea that a man “can never lead you astray” is an anti-Christian doctrine. It is literally the opposite of what Christ taught in 2 Nephi 28:30-31 and JST Mark 9. This philosophy is contrary to the eternal law of agency. In my mind, it is the epitome of pride for a person to tell you that God will never allow them to lead you astray. If you think I’m crazy for even suggesting such an idea I would recommend the words of Nephi in 2 Nephi 28:12-15 as well as an additional witness from Moroni in Mormon 8:28-41.

What’s the gravity of such a statement? Preaching the idea that a man can never lead you astray places attributes of deity upon men. In essence, the LDS church has made lesser gods of these men, thereby breaking the first commandment: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

HISTORICAL TIMELINE

This first quote doesn’t include the words “never lead astray”, but it helps set the tone that from early on church leaders required blind obedience, regardless of the request being right or wrong.

Nov. 8, 1857 - Heber C. Kimball, SLC, Journal of Discourses 6:32

“…WAKE UP! WAKE UP, YE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, AND LIVE TO GOD and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future. And when you are taking a position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it—I mean independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”

1860 - Orson Hyde. The following quote comes from meeting minutes where 7 of the brethren were discussing the Adam-God theory presented by Brigham Young the previous evening. Orson Pratt rebutted the teaching as false. Orson Hyde responded:

“I do not feel competent to take up the points of difficulties between bro. Pratt, and bro Young… [But] to acknowledge that this is the Kingdom of God, and that there is a presiding power, and to admit that he can advance incorrect doctrine, is to lay the ax at the foot of the tree. Will he suffer His mouthpiece to go into error? No. he would remove him, and place another there… ro. Brigham is responsible for the doctrine taught in this Church, and if he did not watch us, and reprove us when wrong, he would not do his duty…he is the presiding authority of God on the earth, then he is legitimate, and everything opposed to him, is not legitimate…God is a jealous God, and His servants are jealous with a Godly jealousy, that the stream may roll in purity.

Feb. 23, 1862 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:289

“The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as [they are] capable of doing so.”

Aug. 31, 1873 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 16th Volume, p. 161, reported by George Q. Cannon)

"If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason."



Oct. 6, 1890—Wilford Woodruff, Official Declaration 1

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)



1937 – Children’s Hymnbook song “Follow the Prophet”, Duane E. Hiatt

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don’t go astray.

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; he knows the way.



June 1945 – Heber J. Grant, Improvement Era, Ward Teachers’ Message

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way."



Oct. 1960 – Marion G. Romney (quoting Heber J. Grant) Conference Report, General Priesthood meeting

“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.” Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, “But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.”

Repeated in the Ensign, July 1972, “The Covenant of the Priesthood”



Oct. 1961 – Franklin Dewey Richards, Conference Report (archive link)

“A seer then is one who may see God, who may talk with God, who may receive personal instruction from God. Our prophet is a seer and a revelator. I do not know who originally taught the doctrine. I was told once that it was taught by President Heber J. Grant, but I was taught this doctrine by Elder Marion G. Romney, who told me that the Lord will never let his prophet, the seer, lead his people astray. Men in all ranks on this earth and in the Church have fallen from grace, but the Lord will never permit the great prophet, our seer, and revelator, to fall or to lead the people astray. Before this could happen God must of necessity remove that man from the earth..”

Oct. 1970 –Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, The Only Safety, p152-153

“You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may conflict with your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yeah, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.” (D&C 21:6) Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow … Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church.”



Mar. 1971 – George Durrant, Ensign “A Gift from Heaven”

“Remember, children, Joseph Smith did see God the Father and his Son in the grove. Jesus Christ lives. He is our Savior. This is his church. Follow the brethren whom the Lord has chosen and you’ll never go astray.”



Apr. 1972 – Harold B. Lee, Teaching of the Living Prophets Student Manual

“Now I want to impress this upon you. Someone has said it this way, and I believe it to be absolutely true: ‘That person is not truly converted until he sees the power of God resting upon the leaders of this church, and until it goes down into his heart like fire.’ Until the members of this church have that conviction that they are being led in the right way, and they have a conviction that these men of God are men who are inspired and have been properly appointed by the hand of God, they are not truly converted.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1972, p. 118; or Ensign, July 1972, p. 103)” – Harold B. Lee



Apr. 1972 – Joseph Fielding Smith, Priesthood Session of General Conference, “Eternal Keys and the Right to Preside”

“Now, brethren, I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.

An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be.”



July 1972 – Joseph Fielding Smith, Ensign “Eternal Keys and the Right to Preside”

“I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.



July 1972 – New-Era, Conference Report

“… I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.”



Oct. 1972 – N. Eldon Tanner, General Conference, “The Priesthood and Its Presidency”

“It is most important that we, as members of the Church, accept without reservation President Lee as a prophet of God and as our leader. I am glad I can say that from the bottom of my heart with every bit of feeling I have. Let us listen to the prophet’s voice and follow him, not blindly but by faith. As we do this, we will never go astray.”



Jan. 1973 – Spencer W. Kimball, Ensign, “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet”

“It was President Wilford Woodruff who, in his closing years, made this statement: “I ask my Heavenly Father to pour out his spirit upon me, as his servant, that in my advanced age, and during the few days I have to spend here in the flesh, I may be led by his inspiration. I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from his oracles of God and from their duty. …” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)



Jan. 1973 – N. Eldon Tanner, Ensign, “The Priesthood and Its Presidency”

“It is most important that we, as members of the Church, accept without reservation President Lee as a prophet of God and as our leader. I am glad I can say that from the bottom of my heart with every bit of feeling I have. Let us listen to the prophet’s voice and follow him, not blindly but by faith. As we do this, we will never go astray.”



Apr. 1973 - A. Theodore Tuttle, General Conference, “What Is a Living Prophet?

“Someone has said, ‘That person is not truly converted until he sees the power of God resting upon the leaders of this church, and until it goes down into his heart like fire.’

Some may wonder at such power and authority being vested in one man. “Could he not lead us astray?” they ask. President Wilford Woodruff once said, “I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212–13.) Talk repeated in the July 1973 Ensign.



Oct. 1973 – David B. Haight, General Conference, “You Are Different”

“President Harold B. Lee sits here with us now. We have heard his voice, listened to his counsel and wisdom, knowing we will never be lead astray, but encouraged by him to live as we should, to obey God’s commandments down to the latest day.

President Lee once remarked that President Heber J. Grant counseled: “Brethren, keep your eye on the President of this Church. If he tells you to do anything and it is wrong and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. But you don’t need to worry; the Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead this people astray.” (Brigham Young University address, April 19, 1961, quoted in the Ensign, October, 1972, p. 7.)

President Lee recently said in a most moving address to the Brigham Young University student body: “The measure of your true conviction is whether or not you see the power of God resting on the leaders of this Church and that testimony goes down into your heart like fire.” May these words of his have a deep impact on all, but especially on you—our youth.”



April 1973 – N. Eldon Tanner, General Conference “Thou Mayest Choose for Thyself”

“We cannot go astray if we listen to the prophet’s voice and follow him, and as we do so we will be led in the path of truth and righteousness and enjoy the love, respect, and confidence of our fellowmen, and eventually enjoy eternal life with our Father in heaven. Or we may refuse and lose all these great blessings.”



July 1973 – N. Eldon Tanner, Ensign, “Thou Mayest Choose for Thyself”

“We cannot go astray if we listen to the prophet’s voice and follow him, and as we do so we will be led in the path of truth and righteousness and enjoy the love, respect, and confidence of our fellowmen, and eventually enjoy eternal life with our Father in heaven. Or we may refuse and lose all these great blessings.”



Jan. 1974 – David B. Haight, Ensign, “You Are Different”

“President Harold B. Lee sits here with us now. We have heard his voice, listened to his counsel and wisdom, knowing we will never be lead astray, but encouraged by him to live as we should, to obey God’s commandments down to the latest day. President Lee once remarked that President Heber J. Grant counseled: “Brethren, keep your eye on the President of this Church. If he tells you to do anything and it is wrong and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. But you don’t need to worry; the Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead this people astray.” (Brigham Young University address, April 19, 1961, quoted in the Ensign, October 1972, p. 7.)



Apr. 1974 – Mark E. Petersen, General Conference, “The People Say “Amen”

“Brigham Young further said, “The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 212.)

It was President Heber J. Grant who added, “You have no need to fear that any man will ever stand at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ unless our Heavenly Father wants him there.” (G. Homer Durham, comp., Gospel Standards, Improvement Era, 1969, p. 68.)



May 1974 – N. Eldon Tanner, Ensign, “Chosen of the Lord”

“President Wilford Woodruff said: “I say to the Latter-day Saints, the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. … No man who has ever breathed the breath of life can hold these keys of the kingdom of God and lead the people astray.” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, G. Homer Durham, comp., Bookcraft, Inc., 1946, pp. 73–74.)



May 1975 – Ezra Taft Benson, New-Era “Jesus Christ—Gifts and Expectations”

“Though his prophet is mortal, God will not let him lead his church astray. (See Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.) God knows all things, the end from the beginning, and no man becomes president of the church of Jesus Christ by accident, or remains there by chance, or is called home by happenstance.”



July 1975 – Leonard J. Arrington, Church Historian, “History Then and Now”

“My study of Church history makes me feel very confident about the Church, its history, and its future. Our leaders are showing great wisdom in handling and solving organizational problems and in the delicate social and moral issues of our age. It’s not always easy and matters do not always go as some would like, but the leadership seems sure and competently surmounts each problem as it arises. Moreover, the Lord will not allow the Church to fail or its leaders to take us astray. Many of the things that perturb some in relation to the Church will be seen in the perspective of historians to be handled with remarkable restraint, wisdom, and forthrightness.”



May 1976 – S. Dilworth Young, Ensign “The Still Small Voice”

“Once one recognizes this burning, this feeling, this peace, one need never be drawn astray in his daily life or in the guidance he may receive. He may also know that if this revelation is in harmony with the revealed principles, that it is right, and if in disharmony, it is not from the Lord. The Lord does not contradict himself. It is vital to everybody to know that no one will ever receive revelation that is contrary to the word given to the living prophet.”



Oct. 1976 – Delbert L. Stapley, General Conference, “Teachings of the Apostle Paul”

“How beautifully and completely Paul encompassed all that would enable us to gain the greatest happiness in this life and exaltation in the life to come! Paul proclaimed the truth boldly and frankly just as our beloved prophet Spencer W. Kimball does today. If we follow our prophet’s counsel and that given by the apostle Paul we cannot go astray.”



Nov. 1977 – Delbert L. Stapley, Ensign, “The Blessing of Righteous Obedience”

“A second way we learn obedience is by following the counsel of living prophets and other appointed Church leaders. We are fortunate to live in a time when a living prophet is on the earth to counsel and guide us. Our Heavenly Father communicates His will through His prophet, and God will not permit His prophet to lead His people astray.”



Jan. 1978 – Roger Miller, Liahona, “Followership”

“Listening to [President Joseph Fielding Smith], I was taken back in my thoughts a quarter of a century ago to an experience I had with President Heber J. Grant. We were discussing some criticism that had been directed against an action taken by him in his official capacity. Putting his arm across my back and resting his hand on my left shoulder, he said, ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’

“And then he added, ‘You don’t need to worry, however; the Lord will never let his spokesman lead his people astray.’

“I haven’t forgotten his counsel. I think I have been faithful to that charge ever since.” (Conference Report, Apr. 1972, p. 111.)



Jan. 1978 – Roy W. Doxey, New-Era, “Accept Diving Counsel”

“President Marion G. Romney in a general conference: “I was greatly impressed by the President’s [President Joseph Fielding Smith’s] remarks. I am glad he said what he did. Listening to him, I was taken back in my thoughts a quarter of a century ago to an experience I had with President Heber J. Grant. We were discussing some criticism that had been directed against an action taken by him in his official capacity. Putting his arm across my back and resting his hand on my left shoulder he said, ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’

“And then he added, ‘You don’t need to worry, however; the Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead his people astray.’”



Nov. 1978 – Elaine Cannon, Ensign, “If We Want to Go Up, We Have to Get On”

“Tonight President Kimball extends an invitation, with some specifics, I am sure, for all of us as women to follow him as he follows the Savior. If we want to “go up,” we must “get on.” It is that simple. He is our leader, in all the world of would-be leaders, who can guide us back to the presence of God.”

“In each country as you hear this program by direct line, your course should become clear, your priorities ought to be known to you as a daughter of God. Personal opinions may vary. Eternal principles never do. When the prophet speaks, sisters, the debate is over.”



August 1979 – First Presidency Message, Ensign, “The Debate is Over”

N. Eldon Tanner quoting Elaine Cannon, "When the prophet speaks the debate is over," which echoes the Improvement Era's message of June 1945.



Feb. 26, 1980, Ezra Taft Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.



Oct. 1980 – Mark E. Petersen, General Conference, “Adam, the Archangel”

“If any of you have been confused by false teachers who come among us, if you have been assailed by advocates of erroneous doctrines, counsel with your priesthood leaders. They will not lead you astray, but will direct you into paths of truth and salvation.”



June 1981 – Ezra Taft Benson, Liahona, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”

“Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.”



Apr. 1981 – Teddy E. Brewerton, General Conference, “Obedience”

“My true feelings about the Church are that I know in a definite, decisive, indelible manner that Jesus is our Redeemer. He lives, as does the Father, and President Kimball is the living servant of the living God. Let us watch the prophet, listen to him, follow him, and we will never go astray.”



Oct. 1983 – Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, “Be Not Deceived”

“Brethren, the Church is true. Those who lead it have only one desire, and that is to do the will of the Lord. They seek his direction in all things. There is not a decision of significance affecting the Church and its people that is made without prayerful consideration, going to the fount of all wisdom for direction. Follow the leadership of the Church. God will not let his work be led astray.”



Oct. 1984 – Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, “The Sustaining of Church Officers”

“The Lord will not allow his work to suffer. He will not allow it to be led astray. He has made that clear.”



May 1986 – Larry Tippets, New-Era, “Participatory Journalism: Whom Will You Trust?”

“Will you trust others? Yes, of course you must trust others, but remember that many lack sufficient knowledge or the proper motives to advise you. Will you trust God? I hope that you will, for he is the one sure source of knowledge and wisdom. I recognize that it is sometimes difficult to know his will. But if we harken to the united voice of the holy scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the personal promptings we receive from the Holy Ghost, we can be sure that we will not be led astray.”



Oct. 1987 – L. Aldin Porter, General Conference, “Follow the Brethren”

“Now, brethren, I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord” (Ensign, July 1972, p. 88).



Oct. 1989 – Boyd K. Packer, General Conference, “Revelation in a Changing World”

“Few things disturb the channels of revelation quite so effectively as those people who are misled and think themselves to be chosen to instruct others when they are not chosen.

Others, fearing they also might go astray, then hold back and do not seek the source of divine revelation. Obedience to constituted priesthood authority will protect us from going astray.”



Oct. 1989 – James E. Faust, General Conference, “Continuous Revelation”

“How can we be so sure that, as promised, the prophets, seers, and revelators will never lead this people astray? (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Ensign, July 1972, p. 88.) One answer is contained in the grand principle found in the 107th section of the Doctrine and Covenants: “And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same.” (D&C 107:27.) This requirement of unanimity provides a check on bias and personal idiosyncrasies. It ensures that God rules through the Spirit, not man through majority or compromise. It ensures that the best wisdom and experience is focused on an issue before the deep, unassailable impressions of revealed direction are received. It guards against the foibles of man.”



May 1991 – L. Tom Perry, Liahona, “My Father and My Temple Recommend”

“We discussed the necessity of honoring and sustaining the prophet. We have been promised that the Lord will never let his prophet lead us astray. Here is a sure foundation on which we can build our lives.”



Oct. 1992 – Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, “To Be Learned Is Good If…”

“Come away from any others. Follow your leaders who have been duly ordained and have been publicly sustained, and you will not be led astray.”



Oct. 1992 – Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, “The Church is on Course”

“Now, in conclusion, do you believe this body of men would ever lead this Church astray? Remember whose church this is. It carries the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, who stands as its head. His is the power to remove any found remiss in his duty or who is teaching that which is not in harmony with His divine will.”



Oct. 1993 – Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, “Bring Up a Child in the Way He Should Go”

“This church is established on principles that are divine. From the day of its organization, it has been led by prophets, and I solemnly testify that the Lord Jesus Christ, whose church it is and whose name it bears, will never let any man or group of men lead it astray. His is the power to remove them if they should ever be found taking the wrong turn.”



Oct. 1994 – L. Tom Perry, General Conference, “Heed the Prophet’s Voice”

“President Brigham Young has assured us we can have complete confidence in the prophets. He said:

“The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as [they are] capable of doing so.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:289).



Nov. 1994 - L. Aldin Porter, Ensign, “The Revelations of Heaven”

“I sat in this tabernacle some years ago as President Joseph Fielding Smith stood at this pulpit. It was the general priesthood meeting of April 1972, the last general conference before President Smith passed away. He said: ‘There is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, or the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the lord’”. – L. Aldin Porter of the Presidency of the First Quorum of the Seventies



Oct. 1994 – James E. Faust, General Conference, “The Keys that Never Rust”

“Today I speak of keys other than those of metal. The keys I speak of never rust. These are the keys of life and salvation in the kingdom of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” (The source for this quote from Joseph is the “Young Woman’s Journal”, Dec. 1906, also requoted in June 1994. There is great debate as to whether Joseph actually wrote these words, or if there was missing context.)



Oct. 1994 – L. Tom Perry, General Conference, “Heed the Prophet’s Voice”

“President Brigham Young has assured us we can have complete confidence in the prophets. He said: “The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as [they are] capable of doing so” (in Journal of Discourses, 9:289).

Today, by sustaining a new prophet, we have placed ourselves under solemn covenant to heed his voice. The Lord has designated Howard W. Hunter as our prophet, seer, and revelator.”



June 1994 – Don L. Searle, Ensign, “A Disciple in Deed”

“William Nelson was one of many Saints who learned that there was spiritual safety in following the Lord’s appointed leader. “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: “‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”



Nov. 6, 1994 - M. Russell Ballard, BYU Address, “We Came From Kirtland”

“I testify to you that Jesus Christ lives. He is the Son of God. This is his Church. He has spoken to his prophets. He speaks today. He is guiding the affairs of the kingdom. God bless you to keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. We will not lead you astray. We cannot.”



Nov. 1994 – L. Aldin Porter, Ensign, “The Revelations of Heaven”

“I sat in this tabernacle some years ago as President Joseph Fielding Smith stood at this pulpit. It was the general priesthood meeting of April 1972, the last general conference before President Smith passed away. He said: “There is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.”

In all solemnity and soberness—with a clear understanding of the consequences of a testimony borne in this setting—may I state that God has made known to me in an unmistakable way that he has called and he sustains those who are the living prophets, seers, and revelators. The Lord God of Israel will direct them, and they will not lead us astray. When you see any document, any address, any letter, any instruction that is issued by the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, it should be recognized for what it surely is—the mind and the will of the Lord to his people in this day.”



Mar. 12, 1996 – M. Russell Ballard, BYU Address, “When Shall These Things Be?”

“You keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot… So keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. While individuals may falter, the body of general Church leadership will remain steadfast and true. If someone tells you that they have received revelation that the First Presidency and the Twelve have not received, run away from them.” (Reprinted in the 1996 December Ensign and again Nov 1997)



Apr. 1996 – Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, “Stand True and Faithful”

“Many of you are descended from pioneers in this Church. They struggled so hard; they paid such a terrible price for their faith. Be true to them and true always to the Church they loved so much. I wish that each of you would remember that tonight you heard me say that this Church is true. Other churches also do much good, but this is the “true and living church” of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose name it bears. Be true to it. Cling to it. If you will do so it will become as an anchor in the midst of a stormy sea. It will be a light to your lives and a foundation upon which to build them. I give you my solemn testimony that this Church will never be led astray. It is in the hands of God, and should any of its leaders ever attempt to lead it astray, His is the power to remove them. He has said that He has restored His work for the last time, “never again to be destroyed nor given to other people.”



Aug. 1996 – James E. Faust, Liahona, “Continuing Revelation”

“How, then, one might ask, can we be so sure that, as promised, the prophets, seers, and revelators will never lead the people astray? One answer is contained in the grand principle found in the 107th section of the Doctrine and Covenants: “And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same.”



June 1996 – Ensign, See “Ideas for Home teachers”

“As a people, we have many reasons to rejoice. The priesthood is among us. The spirit of revelation is among us. The Lord will not permit any man to lead his Church astray.”



March 1997 – Gordon B. Hinckley, Young Adult Fireside, Sandiego, CA

“I want to give you my assurance, my dear friends, the Church will not be led astray nor will its people be led astray. The Lord has said that He has set up His work for the last time. This is the great winding-up period, as it were. The Lord is guiding this Church.” (Reprint, Oct. 1997 Ensign)



Apr. 1998 – Ensign Message, “A House of Order, A House of God”

“What could be more comforting than knowing that a perfect, omnipotent God continually watches over his children in this way? President Brigham Young explained: “The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 138).



Apr. 1998 – L. Aldin Porter, New-Era, “Diving Direction”

“In all solemnity and soberness I state that God has made known to me in an unmistakable way that he has called and he sustains those who are the living prophets, seers, and revelators. The Lord God of Israel will direct them, and they will not lead us astray. We do not need greater prophets. We need listening ears. We need hearts that are sufficiently pure that we can feel their words. We need souls that will commit to the keeping of our covenants.”



Aug. 1998 – L. Aldin Porter, Ensign, “But We Heeded Them Not”

“On whatever subject the prophets choose to speak, listen. Listen with your ears, with your mind, and with your heart. Do not analyze their mortal preparation to speak upon the subject. That is not where their strength comes from. It is the power of God, coupled with His call to them, that qualifies them to speak—on any subject. The united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will never lead us astray.”



Oct. 1998 – Virginia U. Jensen, General Conference, “Come, Listen to a Prophet’s Voice”

“There aren’t many guarantees in this life. There isn’t a car made with a warranty that covers everything. No bank on earth can absolutely guarantee that your money is completely safe. Even the Good Housekeeping seal of approval has a disclaimer written right on it! Nothing man-made or man-controlled can ever be truly guaranteed! But here’s the miracle. The Lord has given some marvelous guarantees without any disclaimers. And this is one of them: He will choose the prophet, and He will never let that man lead us astray. Imagine for a moment the impact of that promise. There is at least one place we can turn for pure, unpolluted guidance.”



Nov. 2000 – Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign (Jan. 2001 reprint) “A Prophet’s Counsel and Prayer for Youth”

“Be loyal to the Church under all circumstances. I make you a promise that the authorities of this Church will never lead you astray. They will lead you in paths of happiness.”



Jan. 2001 – Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign “A Prophet’s Counsel: The Six Bs”

“Be loyal to the Church under all circumstances. I make you a promise that the authorities of this Church will never lead you astray. They will lead you in paths of happiness.”



Apr. 2001 – M. Russell Ballard, General Conference, “Follow the Prophet”

“I make you a promise. It’s a simple one, but it is true. If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and heed our counsel, you will not go astray.“ (Repeated in June 2001 Ensign. Reprinted in the Ensign, Sep. 2001 and reprinted in June 2001 Friend magazine.)



Mar 2001 – M. Russell Ballard, BYU Address “Women of Righteousness”

“I make you a promise. It is a simple one, but it is true. If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and heed our counsel, you will not go astray.”



Nov. 2001 – H. Bryan Richards, Friend “Follow the Prophet”

“My father sat down with me on the couch. He told me the story of the Prophet Joseph Smith and bore his testimony to me. He said that if I would always follow the prophet, he would never lead me astray. From that time on, I never doubted my testimony of the Lord’s chosen prophets, and I have always tried to follow their counsel.”



Aug. 2001 – Friend, “Feast of Prophets”

"Harold B. Lee: “Look to the President of the Church for your instructions. If ever there is a conflict, you keep your eyes on the President if you want to walk in the light.” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 532.)



Aug. 2001 – Allan F. Packer, Ensign, “Solidly Anchored in Our Testimonies”

“We can develop our knowledge and ability as we study the scriptures, follow our priesthood leaders, and become anchored in our testimonies of the gospel. If we do so, we will not be led astray.”

Joseph Fielding Smith: “Be true to every trust. Honor thy father and thy mother. Dwell together in love. … Be modest in your dress. Over-come the world, and do not be led astray by the fashions and practices of those whose interests are centered upon the things of this world.”



April 2002 – L. Aldin Porter, Ensign, “Search the Prophets”

(Quoting Joseph Fielding Smith) “Now, brethren, I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.”



May 2003 – M. Russell Ballard, Ensign, “Our Living Prophet”

“Today I make you a promise. It’s a simple one, but it is true. If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and heed our counsel, you will not go astray.”



May 2003 – Stephen A. West, Friend “Callings and Prophets”

“Throughout our lives, prophets give us direction and counsel that show us how to live. They are aware of the world we live in and all the challenges we face. They know our struggles and our trials. They let us know what we should be doing. The prophet can help us know how to successfully meet the challenges we face and how to be happy and feel peaceful. If we follow the prophet, we will never be led astray and we will be able to return to our Heavenly Father.”



May 2003 – Vicki F. Matsumori, Friend “I Can Follow the Prophet Today”

“Wearing two pairs of earrings may or may not have eternal consequences for this young woman, but her willingness to obey the prophet will.”

And then Elder Ballard promised, “If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and heed our counsel, you will not go astray.” (Ensign, May 2001, 66.)



Sep. 2003 – Vicki F. Matsumori, Friend, “Do What is Right”

“If we follow this person, we won’t go astray.” (“Follow the Prophet,” pp. 110–11)



Apr. 2004 – Ensign, Wilford Woodruff “Gospel Classic”

“I say to all Israel at this day, I say to the whole world, that the God of Israel, who organized this Church and kingdom, never ordained any President or Presidency to lead it astray. Hear it, ye Israel, no man who has ever breathed the breath of life can hold these keys of the kingdom of God and lead the people astray.”



Oct. 2005 – James E. Faust, General Conference, “Called and Chosen”

“The President of the Church will not lead the people of the Church astray. It will never happen. President Hinckley’s counselors sustain him fully, as do the Quorum of the Twelve, the Quorums of the Seventy, and the Presiding Bishopric.”



Mar. 2006 – Linda Magleby, Friend Magazine “Follow the Prophet”

Song Presentation: “Follow the Prophet” (pp. 110–11). Compare a flashlight lighting up a darkened room to a prophet sharing light from Heavenly Father so that His people (sing the words) “don’t go astray.” Define astray as off course or lost.



Sep. 2007 – David E. Sorensen, Ensign / BYU-Idaho devotional, “Priesthood, Agency, and Black Powder”

“We have a singular protection not enjoyed by the world in general. The prophet will never lead us astray. President Wilford Woodruff wrote: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.”



Nov. 2007 – Elizabeth Ricks, Friend, “Two Little Words”

(Quoting Hinckley) “Be loyal to the Church under all circumstances. I make you a promise that the authorities of this Church will never lead you astray. They will lead you in paths of happiness” (“A Prophet’s Counsel and Prayer for Youth,” Ensign, Jan. 2001, 9).



May 2009 – New Era, Q&A “How do I avoid falling back into bad habits like swearing”

“Heed the guidance of the prophets and apostles, for they will not lead you astray. I know this is true, mainly because I have had to fix my old habits as well. I don’t regret that I heeded this counsel. It has truly helped me.”



Nov. 2009 – Thomas S. Monson, General Conference, “Words of the Prophet”

“How grateful we are that the heavens are indeed open, that the restored Church of Jesus Christ is upon the earth today, and that the Church is founded upon the rock of revelation. We are a blessed people, with apostles and prophets upon the earth today. We will never be led astray.”



Oct. 2010 – Claudio M. Costa, General Conference “Obedience to the Prophets”

Repeat of Ezra Taft Benson’s – Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, and again quotes Wilford Woodruff in his Official Declaration 1



Oct 2010 – Kevin R. Duncan, General Conference, “Our Very Survival”

In this address he repeats Ezra Taft Benson’s “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet.” Interesting to note that this was quoted twice, by two different speakers, in this conference alone.



Mar. 2012 – Randall K. Bennet, Ensign, “Follow the Prophet”

“Some might call our actions blind obedience. But we have the Lord’s personal promise that the prophets will never lead us astray. Knowing this helps us hear their voices as we would hear His own.”



Sep. 2012 – M. Russell Ballard, Friend, ”Conference Countdown”

“If you will listen to the living prophet and the apostles and heed our counsel, you will not go astray.” (“They Spoke to Us,” Friend, June 2001, 4).



Apr. 2013 – L. Tom Perry, Ensign, “My First Temple Recommend”

“We discussed the necessity of honoring and sustaining the prophet. We have been promised that the Lord will never let His prophet lead us astray. Here is a sure foundation on which we can build our lives.”



Apr. 2014 – By Linda S. Reeves, General Conference, “Protection from Pornography—a Christ-Focused Home”

“I know that Joseph Smith saw God, our Heavenly Father, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I testify that we have a living prophet upon the earth, President Thomas S. Monson. I also testify that we will never be led astray if we heed the counsel of the prophet of God. I testify of the power of our covenants and the blessings of the temple.”



Oct. 2014 – Russell M. Nelson, General Conference, “Sustaining the Prophets”

“The Church today has been organized by the Lord Himself. He has put in place a remarkable system of governance that provides redundancy and backup. That system provides for prophetic leadership even when the inevitable illnesses and incapacities may come with advancing age. Counterbalances and safeguards abound so that no one can ever lead the Church astray. Senior leaders are constantly being tutored such that one day they are ready to sit in the highest councils. They learn how to hear the voice of the Lord through the whisperings of the Spirit.”



Oct. 2014 – M. Russell Ballard, General Conference, “Stay in the Boat, and Hold On!”

“Keep the eyes of the mission on the leaders of the Church. … We will not and … cannot lead [you] astray.



Jan. 10, 2016 – Russell M. Nelson, Worldwide Devotional for Young Adults, “Becoming True Millennials”

“The Lord has promised us that He will never allow the prophet to lead us astray. President Harold B. Lee declared: “You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.’” (Message repeated in Oct 2016 Ensign.)



June 2016 – Ensign, “We Believe in Following the Prophet”

“As we sustain the prophet and apostles, we gain a testimony of them as servants of God. Even though they are not perfect, Heavenly Father will not allow them to lead us astray.”



Apr. 2017 – Russell M. Nelson, YSA Devotional South Africa

“The prophet will not lead you astray.”



Dec. 2018 – Mckenna Clarke, Liahona “3 Ways Prophets Are Evidence That God Loves You”

“We have to be wary of all the voices in the noisy world, but we can always trust the prophet’s voice because God has lovingly promised us that He will never allow the prophet to lead us astray.”



Mar. 2020 – Dallin H. Oaks, Ensign, “The Lord Leads His Church Through Prophets and Apostles”

“The reference to the plural, prophets and apostles, is also prominent in this familiar teaching by President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972): “There is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.”



Apr. 2020 – Russell M. Nelson, General Conference “An Especially Noble Calling”

(This video is part of talk given by Sister Jones. While she and Nelson visit with primary children in the Smith home in Palmyra New York, she asks him if he could ever lead them astray. He confirms that statement as correct, as a prophet he could never lead them astray. There is even a part where a young boy is asked why we need a prophet and the young man replies something to the effect of, “Well, if we didn’t have a prophet we wouldn’t know what to do.” This is incorrect doctrine. The Holy Ghost teaches us all things that we must do as well as how to choose between right and wrong.)



March 2021 – M Russell Ballard, Liahona, “Who receives revelation for the church?”

Elder Ballard cautions: “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot… If someone tells you that they have received revelation that the First Presidency and the Twelve have not received, run away from them.”



October 2021 — Elder Rasband, General Conference “The Things of My Soul”

“We are distinguished as a Church to be led by prophets, seers, and revelators called of God for this time. I promise that as you listen and follow their counsel, you will never be led astray. Never!”

“We have the voice of the Lord through His prophet to calm our fears and lift our sights, for when President Nelson speaks, he speaks for the Lord.”



January 23, 2022 — Russell M. Nelson, European Area Devotional (Repeated on Feb. 2, 2022–California Area Conference)

"…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely."

(This talk was given right after Wendy Nelson focused her entire talk on following her husband. In that talk, she said, “What would happen in only 30 days if you chose to follow the prophets with exactness?” No mention of the Holy Ghost or Jesus btw. This, to me, is the epitome of pride. No humble servant of God would ever suggest that we place our complete trust in them. Have we forgotten the counsel taught by the Savior in 2 Nephi 28:31? “Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.” What Nelson is suggesting is rooted in evil. It literally contradicts the words of Christ.)

—————

LDS Manuals with the “will not lead astray” doctrine:

Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual (ch.1)

Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual (ch.2)

Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual (ch.4)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young (ch.20)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: George Albert Smith (ch.6)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (ch.8)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (ch.11)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff (ch.19)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee (ch.18)

Presidents of the Church Student Manual (ch.4)

Behold Your Little Ones: Nursery Manual (ch.24)

Old Testament Seminary Teacher Manual (Lesson 65)

Old Testament Seminary Teacher Manual (Lesson 68)

New Testament Student Manual (46)

New Testament Student Manual (52)

New Testament: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual (lesson 6)

New Testament Teacher Resource Manual (Link)

Book of Mormon Teacher Resource Manual (Alma 43-58)

Doctrine and Covenants Instructor’s Guide (Lesson 21)

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (Section 21)

Doctrine and Covenants student Manual (Section 81)

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (ch.37)

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (ch.52)

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (Enrichment F)

Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Study Guide (Unit 31: Day3)

Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Study Guide (Unit 6: Day4)

Foundations of the Restoration Teacher Manual (Lesson 9)

Foundations of the Restoration Teacher Manual (Lesson 20)

Gospel Topics: Answering Gospel Questions (link)

Revelation in Context (link)

Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service (74)

Church History in the Fullness of Times Student Manual (ch.34)

Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants and Church History (Lesson 15)

Primary 7: New Testament (Lesson 46)

The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part B (lesson 13)
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 4th, 2023, 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

The reason this came up is because I recently added a quote from Brigham. This didn't age well.

Aug. 31, 1873 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 16th Volume, p. 161, reported by George Q. Cannon)

"If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason."

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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The difference between the Catholics and the Mormons.
Catholics are taught the Pope is infallible, but no one believes it.
Mormons are taught the President is not infallible, but no one believes it.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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Robin I agree with you partway. Imo, Mormons believe he is not infallible, because they are taught he is infallible.

The talks, the songs, the handbooks, guidebooks, speaking assignments, weekly decisions, indeed the entire organizational structure and decision process reinforces the idea that the president is infallible.

Then every couple of years someone gives a talk saying the president is not infallible and blames the members for not discerning which of the presidents public statements were him acting as president and which were his opinion.
Last edited by tribrac on January 4th, 2023, 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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Considering that hymns are supposed to be a form of worship, yet we have several that are literally praises sung to the prophet, I think the case for prophet worship in this church is cut and dried. (I've become very uncomfortable during such hymns as well as the notorious stand, wave your hankies, and sing We Thank Thee ...every time the prophet rolls in. )

There are Hollywood "A list" celebrities that get less crowd worship at the awards shows.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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tribrac wrote: January 4th, 2023, 9:18 am Robin I agree with you partway. Imo, Mormons believe he is not infallible, because they are taught he is infallible.

The talks, the songs, the handbooks, guidebooks, speaking assignments, weekly decisions, indeed the entire organizational structure and decision process reinforces the idea that the president is infallible.

Then every couple of years someone gives a talk saying the president is not infallible and blames the members for not discerning which of the presidents public statements were him acting as president and which were his opinion.
He was being facetious.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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Damn it

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Robin Hood »

blitzinstripes wrote: January 4th, 2023, 9:19 am Considering that hymns are supposed to be a form of worship, yet we have several that are literally praises sung to the prophet, I think the case for prophet worship in this church is cut and dried. (I've become very uncomfortable during such hymns as well as the notorious stand, wave your hankies, and sing We Thank Thee ...every time the prophet rolls in. )

There are Hollywood "A list" celebrities that get less crowd worship at the awards shows.
We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet is actually about Joseph Smith and not about the current president of the church. I know most people have now forgotten that, but it was the case up until the David O. McKay era.
It's also worth noting that only the first line of the hymn mentions the prophet, and God is being thanked.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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I have no problem giving thanks for those who are inspired to prophesy, but we have turned that gratitude into something entirely different today.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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I compiled the timeline in the OP while I was writing this essay:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... f-prophets

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

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I got a case of the curious bug last night and decided to see if I could find a few more quotes about this false doctrine taught w/in the church. I was sadly informed of many more that I've added to my document: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/infal ... y-timeline
Apr. 1908—Elder Hyrum M. Smith, Conference Report, p.34

“Never in the history of the people have the saints gone wrong or gone astray while following the lead of the Presidency and general authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Never in the world will the people go wrong or go astray and fall by the wayside, if they will continue to follow the lead of these men of God; and I want to suggest that we look to the Presidency of the Church, and the leading quorums of the Priesthood, as true indicators of the way the Lord would have us walk. They are indeed God’s Liahona.”
Apr. 1951—Spencer W. Kimball, Conference Report, p.104

“The authorities which the Lord has placed in his Church constitute for the people of the Church a harbor, a place of refuge, a hitching post, as it were. No one in this Church will ever go far astray who ties himself securely to the Church Authorities whom the Lord has placed in his Church. This Church will never go astray; the Quorum of the Twelve will never lead you into bypaths: it never has and never will. There could be individuals who would falter; there will never be a majority of the Council of the Twelve on the wrong side at any time The Lord has chosen them; he has given them specific responsibilities. And those people who stand close to them will be safe. And conversely, whenever one begins to go his own way in opposition to authority, he is in grave danger. I would not say that those leaders whom the Lord chooses are necessarily the most brilliant, nor the most highly trained, but they are the chosen, and when chosen of the Lord they are his recognized authority, and the people who stay close to them have safety.”
Apr. 1984—N. Eldon Tanner, General Conference

“We cannot go astray if we listen to the prophet’s voice and follow him, and as we do so we will be led in the path of truth and righteousness and enjoy the love, respect, and confidence of our fellowmen, and eventually enjoy eternal life with our Father in heaven. Or we may refuse and lose all these great blessings.”
Oct. 1961—Theodore M. Burton, Conference Report, p.122

“Men in all ranks on this earth and in the Church have fallen from grace, but the Lord will never permit the great prophet, our seer, and revelator, to fall or to lead the people astray. Before this could happen God must of necessity remove that man from the earth. There must be someone to whom the people can turn and trust, who can speak for God. God must have someone on earth who can point the way and say, ” This is true. ” How grateful, my brothers and sisters, we should be that God in the fulness of his grace has given us a living prophet to guide us to Him.”
Apr. 1967—John Longden, Conference Report, p.128

“No man or council of men who stand at the head of the Church shall have power to lead the Saints astray. With this assurance, then, the people of God in every dispensation have been justified in rendering absolute, yet intelligent, obedience in the direction of the holy prophets.”
Apr. 1959—John Longden, Conference Report, pp.36-37

“No individual has ever gone astray by following the counsel of these prophets, but many have experienced tragedy and sorrow by going counter to their counsel.”
Oct. 1958—Bruce R. McConkie quoting Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, p.117

“I say to all Israel at this day, I say to the whole world, that the God of Israel, who organized this Church and kingdom, never ordained any President or Presidency to lead it astray. Hear it, ye Israel, no man who has ever breathed the breath of life can hold these keys of the kingdom of God and lead the people astray.”
Apr. 1931—Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, p.38

“The Lord promised long ago that the majority of the leadership of this Church never would lead this people astray, and they never will, and they are not leading this people astray today.”
Apr. 1929—George F. Richards, Conference Report, pp.41-42

“I want to give you a guide that is sure and safe. If you will be one with the Presidency of this Church, and with the twelve apostles, you will never go astray. You will be on firm footing. There has never been a moment since the organization of this Church when the President of the Church and the Twelve Apostles or a majority of the Twelve Apostles have gone astray. You are safe to follow their lead.”
Oct. 1922—Charles A Callis, Conference Report, p.158

“So long as the Latter-day Saints look to these spiritual guides, the Presidency and the Twelve, and obey their counsels, they will never go astray. These inspired men are servants of Jesus Christ.”
Oct. 1912—Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, p.124

“No man ever went astray by following the counsel of the authorities of the Church. No man who ever followed the teachings or took advice or counsel from the one who stands as the representative of the Lord ever went astray; but men who have refused to accept counsel have gone astray and into forbidden paths.”
 Sep. 1994—Gordon B. Hinckley, Regional Conference-Deseret News article

“The LDS Church will never be without a prophet and that prophet will never lead the church astray, a member of the church's First Presidency told a regional conference this week.

Gordon B. Hinckley, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, on Sunday responded to a paper presented at the Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City two weeks ago. In the paper, Mormon feminist housewife Janice Allred said statements by President Hinckley that God never would allow the church to be led astray do not have a scriptural basis.

"She can present her paper until doomsday," President Hinckley said at a Tri-Stake Regional Conference at church-owned Ricks College, but God will see to it that the church will not be led astray.”
1889—Wilford Woodruff, The Disclosure of Wilford Woodruff, MS 51:546-547

“There are men today, there will be men till the coming of the Son of Man, I expect, who feel as though they ought to lead the Church, as though it is not going on right—that this, that, and the other is wrong. I say to all Israel at this day, I say to the whole world, that the God of Israel, who organized this Church and kingdom, never ordained any President or Presidency to lead it astray. Hear it, ye Israel, no man who has ever breathed the breath of life can hold these keys of the kingdom of God and lead the people astray.”
Jan. 13, 1957—Spencer W. Kimball, BYU Stake Conference, “Revelation”

“You need never worry. You will always be safe as you follow the leadership of this Church. Individuals may go wrong. Even individuals in high places might falter, but there will never come a time when a majority of the leaders in this kingdom will go astray. You may be sure of that.”
July 8, 1964—Harold B. Lee, CES address, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator”

“Yes, we believe in a living prophet, seer, and revelator, and I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past as contained in our standard works—as wonderful as they are—but here in 1964 we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it.”
Apr. 1934—George Albert Smith, Conference Report, p.29

“Think of the men who have presided over this church—Joseph Smith gave his life without hesitation, when the time came, but he had finished his work. The men who have succeeded him in the Presidency have possessed divine authority. Each of them in their turn has been criticized. Fault has been found with their ministry, but they have been servants of the Lord and he has recognized them, and they have lived long, useful lives, and have blessed the people….

He will not permit the men who preside over his church to lead the people into error, but he will sustain them with his almighty power. He will magnify them in the eyes of good and great men and women. He will bless their ministry and it will be fraught with success. Those who oppose and find fault will not find joy in their opposition. Those who criticize and seek to destroy the influence of the leaders of the Church will suffer the result of their wrongdoing.”
May 5, 1965—Delbert L. Stapley, BYU Speeches of the Year

“The Holy Ghost truly leads into all truth. The Holy Ghost will not abide in an unworthy soul. The Holy Ghost forsakes those who are sufficient unto themselves and are not sincerely humble to receive the teachings of the Spirit. We must always believe in and follow the living prophets of God. They are His mouthpiece on earth and are inspired of Him to teach and direct all of us in righteousness and truth. No one will go astray if he follows the teachings and examples of God's anointed here on earth. People who criticize, find fault, and fail to support God's appointed leaders, lose the Spirit and fall into error and apostasy. All of us should be careful that we do not die with the former prophets. Many have and many will yet do so if they interpret from what they hear or read to their own selfish interests or desires. We cannot afford to die spiritually with any one of the prophets of this dispensation. The end result will be bitterness, sorrow, and loss of the Spirit, the only sure witness to bear record of truth and righteousness and to assure a peaceful, fruitful, and the abundant, happy life.”
1857—Patriarch John Young, (Brigham’s brother)

“It is not my desire or intention to take up much time this morning; but I was desirous to bear my testimony to the truth set forth by President Kimball, a man filled with the Holy Ghost. I wonder if some one won't go away and say that brother Kimball and the authorities were misinformed. I can tell you they are not; for those men who stand at the head of affairs have the light of heaven with them all the time; they have the power of the Spirit and the visions of the heavens with them always, and they can read men and women from head to foot. After this, I don't want anybody to go away from the meeting and say, "I guess they were mistaken." Don't let us hear any more of it, brethren; never let such a thing be spoken, that a Prophet of God is mistaken. I ask this congregation, and I adjure you in the name of the Lord to speak, if ever you heard brother Brigham, brother Kimball, brother Jedediah, or brother Wells say anything that was not strictly true. I answer, you never did.”

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

This actually fills in quite a few of those gaps that I was missing. This has to be one of the longest-standing philosophies in the church.

If you didn't get a chance to read my essay that talks about how the church knows (and admits) this doctrine is false, you can read it here:https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Wolfwoman »

One correction to your timeline: the song “Follow the Prophet” is copyrighted 1989, not 1937. The composer was born in 1937.

Thanks for putting it together. I thought it came from Wilford Woodruff and his general conference talk. But apparently there was a lot that led up to that moment. Even Joseph Smith had said the saints were darkened in their minds because they relied on the prophet too much.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by tribrac »

Would've been nice if while they were talking about prophet not being able to lead church astray that they might have mentioned that the prophet might change everything as soon as the last prophet dies.

I always got the impression things would be steady and stable growth and change, not dramatic or erratic. My bad I guess.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Wolfwoman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 10:11 am One correction to your timeline: the song “Follow the Prophet” is copyrighted 1989, not 1937. The composer was born in 1937.

Thanks for putting it together. I thought it came from Wilford Woodruff and his general conference talk. But apparently there was a lot that led up to that moment. Even Joseph Smith had said the saints were darkened in their minds because they relied on the prophet too much.
Thanks for that clarification. I remember thinking that was weird. I've moved it to its appropriate place in the annals of history. :)

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by TheDuke »

I would like to see how many times the word "infallible" is used.... NONE. So you really mean in the title something about the ability of the church president leading someone astray, not being infallible! These are different things.

What is leading astray? I would conjecture it is causing someone to be in sin. or in other words be guilty of a sin. I have said many times that, I believe that if you do what is right, you don't sin. If you don't know what is right and you follow the prophet, you don't and cannot sin in it. The sin is on the prophet.

I have flown under FAA control. In IFR conditions, the FAA controller gives direction to the pilot. Usually if the pilot follows the FAA guidance right up to the point he can see something is wrong (not in IFR but in visual conditions for example under instrument rules), the pilot should do what he is trained to do. Otherwise, follow the controller! If something happens, which occasionally, rarely but occasionally does, the pilot is not held accountable. The controller is. Now pilots make mistakes as does controllers and everyone else. But, pilot errors account for 99.9% of the accidents. Controllers very few. This the doctrine you are missing. Same in the military following orders to the same point. Same everywhere.

Quit saying "not leading astray" is same as "infallibility".

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:00 pm I would like to see how many times the word "infallible" is used.... NONE. So you really mean in the title something about the ability of the church president leading someone astray, not being infallible! These are different things.

What is leading astray? I would conjecture it is causing someone to be in sin. or in other words be guilty of a sin. I have said many times that, I believe that if you do what is right, you don't sin. If you don't know what is right and you follow the prophet, you don't and cannot sin in it. The sin is on the prophet.

I have flown under FAA control. In IFR conditions, the FAA controller gives direction to the pilot. Usually if the pilot follows the FAA guidance right up to the point he can see something is wrong (not in IFR but in visual conditions for example under instrument rules), the pilot should do what he is trained to do. Otherwise, follow the controller! If something happens, which occasionally, rarely but occasionally does, the pilot is not held accountable. The controller is. Now pilots make mistakes as does controllers and everyone else. But, pilot errors account for 99.9% of the accidents. Controllers very few. This the doctrine you are missing. Same in the military following orders to the same point. Same everywhere.

Quit saying "not leading astray" is same as "infallibility".
You'd make a good lawyer. Words matter Duke. BTW, the Lord NEVER stated how and in what way PSRs can lead you astray. It can be anything. But you really have a rose-colored view of what the church actually teaches. I mean, I get it, I'd have to do the same thing to stay in the church and keep my sanity.

These men speak with a forked tongue. "We're not infallible" "We can never lead you astray." SMH.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:04 pm
TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:00 pm I would like to see how many times the word "infallible" is used.... NONE. So you really mean in the title something about the ability of the church president leading someone astray, not being infallible! These are different things.

What is leading astray? I would conjecture it is causing someone to be in sin. or in other words be guilty of a sin. I have said many times that, I believe that if you do what is right, you don't sin. If you don't know what is right and you follow the prophet, you don't and cannot sin in it. The sin is on the prophet.

I have flown under FAA control. In IFR conditions, the FAA controller gives direction to the pilot. Usually if the pilot follows the FAA guidance right up to the point he can see something is wrong (not in IFR but in visual conditions for example under instrument rules), the pilot should do what he is trained to do. Otherwise, follow the controller! If something happens, which occasionally, rarely but occasionally does, the pilot is not held accountable. The controller is. Now pilots make mistakes as does controllers and everyone else. But, pilot errors account for 99.9% of the accidents. Controllers very few. This the doctrine you are missing. Same in the military following orders to the same point. Same everywhere.

Quit saying "not leading astray" is same as "infallibility".
You'd make a good lawyer. Words matter Duke. BTW, the Lord NEVER stated how and in what way PSRs can lead you astray. It can be anything. But you really have a rose-colored view of what the church actually teaches. I mean, I get it, I'd have to do the same thing to stay in the church and keep my sanity.

These men speak with a forked tongue. "We're not infallible" "We can never lead you astray." SMH.
to be clear again, staying in the church all these years was not my choice, it was the spirit. I guess I just needed to stay in the boat the first 20 years to give my children what they wanted, even if I got little and paid a lot. The next 15 were about winning or obtaining exaltation with my family. Even there I cannot share what I know about the mysteries in the church, they all lol, or silently, and would get angry. It was only in October that I finished my terrible task, and yet I have not seen the Lord's intervention yet, but only a promise, along with an incredible sequence of miracles or magic if you will from the Lord confirming it, not in the spirit, but physically. Outcome is not yet what I hope here, but along the way, I was taught by god himself (my eternal father that is) truths which natural eyes cannot see. But darn, it isn't possible to share them. Sound's like "if only I had a trump"verses. But, that isn't my real job (just a hobby). My only role in this life is to prove my value as an eternal mate and father. Then again, I believe in MMP and we don't and cannot eat the whole perfection elephant in one lifetime.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I don’t know what that had to do w/ the topic we were discussing.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:26 pm I don’t know what that had to do w/ the topic we were discussing.
If it wasn't clear I was answering you're query or jab or point about staying in the church. perhaps rose colored glasses, or perhaps gentle re-steering by the spirit.

You said. "... you really have a rose-colored view of what the church actually teaches. I mean, I get it, I'd have to do the same thing to stay in the church and keep my sanity."

BTW on the other thread you don't want to reply to, I didn't mean a jab to say you didn't have the spirit or are past spirit, at least that wasn't my intent. It was to say the spirit teaches us each in its own way in in its own time, that's all. Don't take everything as a jab. And don't try to make everything a jab. There is nothing for either of us, or others reading to get from jabs, only honest discussions, no matter the personal opinions of either.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Valo »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:36 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:26 pm I don’t know what that had to do w/ the topic we were discussing.
If it wasn't clear I was answering you're query or jab or point about staying in the church. perhaps rose colored glasses, or perhaps gentle re-steering by the spirit.

You said. "... you really have a rose-colored view of what the church actually teaches. I mean, I get it, I'd have to do the same thing to stay in the church and keep my sanity."

BTW on the other thread you don't want to reply to, I didn't mean a jab to say you didn't have the spirit or are past spirit, at least that wasn't my intent. It was to say the spirit teaches us each in its own way in in its own time, that's all. Don't take everything as a jab. And don't try to make everything a jab. There is nothing for either of us, or others reading to get from jabs, only honest discussions, no matter the personal opinions of either.
Don't take this as a jab.

...

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by TheDuke »

Valo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:42 pm
Don't take this as a jab.
ok, that was for Reluctant and his statement about jabs before that. But, if you're also Reluctant by another name, ok. I will not.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Valo wrote: February 6th, 2023, 6:42 pm Don't take this as a jab.

...
Don’t take the jab.

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by BeNotDeceived »

TheDuke wrote: February 6th, 2023, 5:00 pm I would like to see how many times the word "infallible" is used.... NONE. So you really mean in the title something about the ability of the church president leading someone astray, not being infallible! These are different things.

What is leading astray? I would conjecture it is causing someone to be in sin. or in other words be guilty of a sin. I have said many times that, I believe that if you do what is right, you don't sin. If you don't know what is right and you follow the prophet, you don't and cannot sin in it. The sin is on the prophet.

I have flown under FAA control. In IFR conditions, the FAA controller gives direction to the pilot. Usually if the pilot follows the FAA guidance right up to the point he can see something is wrong (not in IFR but in visual conditions for example under instrument rules), the pilot should do what he is trained to do. Otherwise, follow the controller! If something happens, which occasionally, rarely but occasionally does, the pilot is not held accountable. The controller is. Now pilots make mistakes as does controllers and everyone else. But, pilot errors account for 99.9% of the accidents. Controllers very few. This the doctrine you are missing. Same in the military following orders to the same point. Same everywhere.

Quit saying "not leading astray" is same as "infallibility".
Push back at pilot’s discretion. :lol:

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Re: Timeline of Infallibility

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Words matter…

infallible
1 : incapable of error
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint
3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals

The LDS church teaches they are “not” infallible….?

1 : “Will he suffer His mouthpiece to go into error? No.”
2 : “The prophet will not lead you astray.”
3 : “I was taught this doctrine… that the Lord will never let his prophet, the seer, lead his people astray.”

They preach the very definition of “infallible.”
What does that tell you?

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