Marred Servant

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Bronco73idi
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 4th, 2023, 1:25 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 3rd, 2023, 12:49 pm Unless that’s a mistranslation of Isaiah. Gileadi renders it: Twofold calamity has befallen you: desolation, ruin - and who laments you? Famine, the sword... rather than these two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee (which makes no sense at at within the context of the rest of the verse.
Of course, Gileadi mistranslates it, he refuses to use the Brass Plates. He omits everything Joseph brought forth so he can stay appealing to secular scholarship.

Here's Isaiah off the Brass Plates in 2 Ne 8.

19 These two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee—thy desolation and destruction, and the famine and the sword—and by whom shall I comfort thee?

20 Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in a net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.

Their sorrow makes perfect sense, they are lamenting the destruction of a fallen people just as Mormon did.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.

The Urim and Thummim are the what all four of these are based on - the two eyes; the seers. I have supposed they are also the sun and the moon but it goes beyond that to what the sun and moon represent. Anointed ones are intended to give light.
The Lord anoints and appoints people, not inanimate objects. Let us have Revelation 8 show who is referenced.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

There are typically three lines of leadership the Lord uses, the kingly line, the prophetic line, and the priestly line (hence prophet, priest, and king). They can at times overlap, but more often the Lord uses prophet and priest as a reference to two specific people. I have been following the word links and have found this to be the case.

Read Zechariah 11 and you will have no doubt that the two staves are two people.

You say, "I think one servant would do", perhaps having forgotten those revelation verses. There are two who hold the armies of hell at bay, and they are the same two prophesied about throughout scripture.
The BofM version still jives with Gileadi’s translation, except he is kinder to the ignorant and spells it out. The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.

The sun and moon are not inanimate objects, they are members of the hosts of heaven and are equated with angelic beings in the prophetic literature. They *have* been prophesying, clothed in sackcloth.

Edit to add: Zechariah has them as literal “sons of oil.” What is oil but light and life. For them to be anointed might only mean as much, since the anointing oil of the heavenly temple was said to make whatever it touched shine with light.

Israelite kings, according to original temple tradition, are priest/kings. They are these “servants” and sons. The Deuteronomists censored some of that out of our cannon because it was too scandalous a thing. I’m gonna start calling them the Deuts-bags, I think...for short.
I agree with Shawn. 2 Nephi 8 is pretty easy to read.

18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.

Isaiah talks about literal sons before and after 19, why?

The two sons are the two prophets.

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 1:56 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 4th, 2023, 1:25 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 3rd, 2023, 12:49 pm Unless that’s a mistranslation of Isaiah. Gileadi renders it: Twofold calamity has befallen you: desolation, ruin - and who laments you? Famine, the sword... rather than these two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee (which makes no sense at at within the context of the rest of the verse.
Of course, Gileadi mistranslates it, he refuses to use the Brass Plates. He omits everything Joseph brought forth so he can stay appealing to secular scholarship.

Here's Isaiah off the Brass Plates in 2 Ne 8.

19 These two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee—thy desolation and destruction, and the famine and the sword—and by whom shall I comfort thee?

20 Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in a net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.

Their sorrow makes perfect sense, they are lamenting the destruction of a fallen people just as Mormon did.
The two candlesticks.
The two olive trees.
The two anointed ones.
The two witnesses.

The Urim and Thummim are the what all four of these are based on - the two eyes; the seers. I have supposed they are also the sun and the moon but it goes beyond that to what the sun and moon represent. Anointed ones are intended to give light.
The Lord anoints and appoints people, not inanimate objects. Let us have Revelation 8 show who is referenced.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

There are typically three lines of leadership the Lord uses, the kingly line, the prophetic line, and the priestly line (hence prophet, priest, and king). They can at times overlap, but more often the Lord uses prophet and priest as a reference to two specific people. I have been following the word links and have found this to be the case.

Read Zechariah 11 and you will have no doubt that the two staves are two people.

You say, "I think one servant would do", perhaps having forgotten those revelation verses. There are two who hold the armies of hell at bay, and they are the same two prophesied about throughout scripture.
The BofM version still jives with Gileadi’s translation, except he is kinder to the ignorant and spells it out. The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.

The sun and moon are not inanimate objects, they are members of the hosts of heaven and are equated with angelic beings in the prophetic literature. They *have* been prophesying, clothed in sackcloth.

Edit to add: Zechariah has them as literal “sons of oil.” What is oil but light and life. For them to be anointed might only mean as much, since the anointing oil of the heavenly temple was said to make whatever it touched shine with light.

Israelite kings, according to original temple tradition, are priest/kings. They are these “servants” and sons. The Deuteronomists censored some of that out of our cannon because it was too scandalous a thing. I’m gonna start calling them the Deuts-bags, I think...for short.
I agree with Shawn. 2 Nephi 8 is pretty easy to read.

18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.

Isaiah talks about literal sons before and after 19, why?

The two sons are the two prophets.
As has been mentioned before - it’s the Hebrew prophetic literary style and the use of double meanings. Doesn’t translate to English well - something like if I had been able to write in mine own language there would have been no error…

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:11 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 1:56 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 4th, 2023, 1:25 pm
Of course, Gileadi mistranslates it, he refuses to use the Brass Plates. He omits everything Joseph brought forth so he can stay appealing to secular scholarship.

Here's Isaiah off the Brass Plates in 2 Ne 8.

19 These two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee—thy desolation and destruction, and the famine and the sword—and by whom shall I comfort thee?

20 Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in a net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.

Their sorrow makes perfect sense, they are lamenting the destruction of a fallen people just as Mormon did.



The Lord anoints and appoints people, not inanimate objects. Let us have Revelation 8 show who is referenced.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

There are typically three lines of leadership the Lord uses, the kingly line, the prophetic line, and the priestly line (hence prophet, priest, and king). They can at times overlap, but more often the Lord uses prophet and priest as a reference to two specific people. I have been following the word links and have found this to be the case.

Read Zechariah 11 and you will have no doubt that the two staves are two people.

You say, "I think one servant would do", perhaps having forgotten those revelation verses. There are two who hold the armies of hell at bay, and they are the same two prophesied about throughout scripture.
The BofM version still jives with Gileadi’s translation, except he is kinder to the ignorant and spells it out. The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.

The sun and moon are not inanimate objects, they are members of the hosts of heaven and are equated with angelic beings in the prophetic literature. They *have* been prophesying, clothed in sackcloth.

Edit to add: Zechariah has them as literal “sons of oil.” What is oil but light and life. For them to be anointed might only mean as much, since the anointing oil of the heavenly temple was said to make whatever it touched shine with light.

Israelite kings, according to original temple tradition, are priest/kings. They are these “servants” and sons. The Deuteronomists censored some of that out of our cannon because it was too scandalous a thing. I’m gonna start calling them the Deuts-bags, I think...for short.
I agree with Shawn. 2 Nephi 8 is pretty easy to read.

18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.

Isaiah talks about literal sons before and after 19, why?

The two sons are the two prophets.
As has been mentioned before - it’s the Hebrew prophetic literary style and the use of double meanings. Doesn’t translate to English well - something like if I had been able to write in mine own language there would have been no error…
I have read that, that doesn’t change verse 18.

It talks about literal sons of the house of Judah. The sons are weak and pathetic and can’t guide the house of Judah.

Verse 20, why are fainted weak men also wild bulls?

The BOM version is true and talks about the 2 prophets.

This is a very easy read.

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abijah
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by abijah »

Isaiah 52
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man...

It makes sense, particularly when you consider that isaiah is speaking in reference to his face/visage, which gets married/anointed.

Oil provides a glossy surface which reflects the golden light. To be anointed/smeared with the holy oil is connected to one's face shining:

Psalm 104
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:33 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:11 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 1:56 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm

The BofM version still jives with Gileadi’s translation, except he is kinder to the ignorant and spells it out. The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.

The sun and moon are not inanimate objects, they are members of the hosts of heaven and are equated with angelic beings in the prophetic literature. They *have* been prophesying, clothed in sackcloth.

Edit to add: Zechariah has them as literal “sons of oil.” What is oil but light and life. For them to be anointed might only mean as much, since the anointing oil of the heavenly temple was said to make whatever it touched shine with light.

Israelite kings, according to original temple tradition, are priest/kings. They are these “servants” and sons. The Deuteronomists censored some of that out of our cannon because it was too scandalous a thing. I’m gonna start calling them the Deuts-bags, I think...for short.
I agree with Shawn. 2 Nephi 8 is pretty easy to read.

18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.

Isaiah talks about literal sons before and after 19, why?

The two sons are the two prophets.
As has been mentioned before - it’s the Hebrew prophetic literary style and the use of double meanings. Doesn’t translate to English well - something like if I had been able to write in mine own language there would have been no error…
I have read that, that doesn’t change verse 18.

It talks about literal sons of the house of Judah. The sons are weak and pathetic and can’t guide the house of Judah.

Verse 20, why are fainted weak men also wild bulls?

The BOM version is true and talks about the 2 prophets.

This is a very easy read.
Isaiah generally isn’t an easy read - that’s why Nephi emphasizes there is a “manner of the Jews” with which type of writings and prophecy his children were unfamiliar.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 3:54 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:33 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:11 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 1:56 pm

I agree with Shawn. 2 Nephi 8 is pretty easy to read.

18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.

Isaiah talks about literal sons before and after 19, why?

The two sons are the two prophets.
As has been mentioned before - it’s the Hebrew prophetic literary style and the use of double meanings. Doesn’t translate to English well - something like if I had been able to write in mine own language there would have been no error…
I have read that, that doesn’t change verse 18.

It talks about literal sons of the house of Judah. The sons are weak and pathetic and can’t guide the house of Judah.

Verse 20, why are fainted weak men also wild bulls?

The BOM version is true and talks about the 2 prophets.

This is a very easy read.
Isaiah generally isn’t an easy read - that’s why Nephi emphasizes there is a “manner of the Jews” with which type of writings and prophecy his children were unfamiliar.
It use to be a hard read for me, it isn’t anymore.

Like this chapter, you guys are not talking about his actual words, you guys are talking about what other men say his words say…

It’s obvious that 18 is about the sons of a cursed nation. It cements that the house of Judah didn’t get their lands back because The lord lead them back, he had no one to lead them. Just like verse 18 says in both versions.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 3:54 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:33 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:11 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 1:56 pm

I agree with Shawn. 2 Nephi 8 is pretty easy to read.

18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.

Isaiah talks about literal sons before and after 19, why?

The two sons are the two prophets.
As has been mentioned before - it’s the Hebrew prophetic literary style and the use of double meanings. Doesn’t translate to English well - something like if I had been able to write in mine own language there would have been no error…
I have read that, that doesn’t change verse 18.

It talks about literal sons of the house of Judah. The sons are weak and pathetic and can’t guide the house of Judah.

Verse 20, why are fainted weak men also wild bulls?

The BOM version is true and talks about the 2 prophets.

This is a very easy read.
Isaiah generally isn’t an easy read - that’s why Nephi emphasizes there is a “manner of the Jews” with which type of writings and prophecy his children were unfamiliar.
Just so you know, I wanted you to be right. Reading Shawn’s replies I wanted to stick up for you.

That small little voice said “READ IT!”

Back to the marred (oil covered) servant who doesn’t have the initials MT 😂

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 4:31 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 3:54 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:33 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 2:11 pm

As has been mentioned before - it’s the Hebrew prophetic literary style and the use of double meanings. Doesn’t translate to English well - something like if I had been able to write in mine own language there would have been no error…
I have read that, that doesn’t change verse 18.

It talks about literal sons of the house of Judah. The sons are weak and pathetic and can’t guide the house of Judah.

Verse 20, why are fainted weak men also wild bulls?

The BOM version is true and talks about the 2 prophets.

This is a very easy read.
Isaiah generally isn’t an easy read - that’s why Nephi emphasizes there is a “manner of the Jews” with which type of writings and prophecy his children were unfamiliar.
Just so you know, I wanted you to be right. Reading Shawn’s replies I wanted to stick up for you.

That small little voice said “READ IT!”

Back to the marred (oil covered) servant who doesn’t have the initials MT 😂
As if we know who *was* right or not, my friend...

“The iron rod is the Word of God” - - but the Word is more complicated than comparing clusters of letters on a page.

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gruden2.0
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by gruden2.0 »

Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.
Ah, when you read v.18, it's pretty obvious he's talking about people.
2 Ne 8:18 wrote:And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.
Sword and famine do not 'take Jerusalem by the hand'. Further in v. 20:
2 Ne 8:20 wrote:Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in the net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
In the following verses Isaiah then begins to send a message to all these men who are thus afflicted like the wild bull. Verse 21 hearkens back to v. 17 of those acting in a state of drunkenness. So this concept bookends the verses about the sons of Jerusalem. So basically you've got all these people carried away with rage, fury, and rendered incapable of leading the people except for two men. So basically vvs 17-25 is the flow of an inspired idea Isaiah is presenting of the situation the Lord's people are facing. Of all these people you will have two who can see clearly, but the Lord states He will remove this condition (v. 22) so that His people, which have been overrun by the enemy which caused their condition, can come to their senses and Zion can be redeemed.
Pazooka wrote: Or maybe you’re married to a certain theory?
Hmmm...

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

gruden2.0 wrote: January 5th, 2023, 7:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.
Ah, when you read v.18, it's pretty obvious he's talking about people.
2 Ne 8:18 wrote:And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.
Sword and famine do not 'take Jerusalem by the hand'. Further in v. 20:
2 Ne 8:20 wrote:Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in the net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
In the following verses Isaiah then begins to send a message to all these men who are thus afflicted like the wild bull. Verse 21 hearkens back to v. 17 of those acting in a state of drunkenness. So this concept bookends the verses about the sons of Jerusalem. So basically you've got all these people carried away with rage, fury, and rendered incapable of leading the people except for two men. So basically vvs 17-25 is the flow of an inspired idea Isaiah is presenting of the situation the Lord's people are facing. Of all these people you will have two who can see clearly, but the Lord states He will remove this condition (v. 22) so that His people, which have been overrun by the enemy which caused their condition, can come to their senses and Zion can be redeemed.
Pazooka wrote: Or maybe you’re married to a certain theory?
Hmmm...
One of the things I’m seeing is that we’re ascribing magical qualities to the BofM translation. Our best guess is that it came from the record kept on the brass plates which was one of several copies. These were taken by Nephi just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - a destruction that came because of apostasy. Why would the brass plate version have been more correct than any other early version? When differences are noted, why are we assuming that the BofM version has to be the correct one if Joseph Smith merely translated it?

There are a lot of things inanimate object simply don’t do in real life. But in Biblical prophesy...they do. The desert will rejoice...the potsherds strive together, etc

It would be interesting if the BofM version of these verses were, in fact, the least correct as far as making them plain to the understanding of the non-Hebrew reader.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 8:07 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 5th, 2023, 7:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.
Ah, when you read v.18, it's pretty obvious he's talking about people.
2 Ne 8:18 wrote:And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.
Sword and famine do not 'take Jerusalem by the hand'. Further in v. 20:
2 Ne 8:20 wrote:Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in the net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
In the following verses Isaiah then begins to send a message to all these men who are thus afflicted like the wild bull. Verse 21 hearkens back to v. 17 of those acting in a state of drunkenness. So this concept bookends the verses about the sons of Jerusalem. So basically you've got all these people carried away with rage, fury, and rendered incapable of leading the people except for two men. So basically vvs 17-25 is the flow of an inspired idea Isaiah is presenting of the situation the Lord's people are facing. Of all these people you will have two who can see clearly, but the Lord states He will remove this condition (v. 22) so that His people, which have been overrun by the enemy which caused their condition, can come to their senses and Zion can be redeemed.
Pazooka wrote: Or maybe you’re married to a certain theory?
Hmmm...
One of the things I’m seeing is that we’re ascribing magical qualities to the BofM translation. Our best guess is that it came from the record kept on the brass plates which was one of several copies. These were taken by Nephi just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - a destruction that came because of apostasy. Why would the brass plate version have been more correct than any other early version? When differences are noted, why are we assuming that the BofM version has to be the correct one if Joseph Smith merely translated it?

There are a lot of things inanimate object simply don’t do in real life. But in Biblical prophesy...they do. The desert will rejoice...the potsherds strive together, etc

It would be interesting if the BofM version of these verses were, in fact, the least correct as far as making them plain to the understanding of the non-Hebrew reader.
Let’s put some numbers and ideas behind these scriptures.

Brass plates 600 BC or 100-150 years after Isaiah wrote his words, also pre Babylonian.

Oldest recorded Isaiah outside of BOM 150BC or 550-600 years after Isaiah wrote his words, post Babylon.

I find it funny that no Christian wants to see Isaiah 51:19 being tied into Revelation 11:3

The blasphemy, the Old Testament and New Testament is the same story?

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:12 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 8:07 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 5th, 2023, 7:24 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 4th, 2023, 5:11 pm The two sons are not people, they are desolation/famine and desolation/the sword. They are what the people give rise to.
Ah, when you read v.18, it's pretty obvious he's talking about people.
2 Ne 8:18 wrote:And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.
Sword and famine do not 'take Jerusalem by the hand'. Further in v. 20:
2 Ne 8:20 wrote:Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in the net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
In the following verses Isaiah then begins to send a message to all these men who are thus afflicted like the wild bull. Verse 21 hearkens back to v. 17 of those acting in a state of drunkenness. So this concept bookends the verses about the sons of Jerusalem. So basically you've got all these people carried away with rage, fury, and rendered incapable of leading the people except for two men. So basically vvs 17-25 is the flow of an inspired idea Isaiah is presenting of the situation the Lord's people are facing. Of all these people you will have two who can see clearly, but the Lord states He will remove this condition (v. 22) so that His people, which have been overrun by the enemy which caused their condition, can come to their senses and Zion can be redeemed.
Pazooka wrote: Or maybe you’re married to a certain theory?
Hmmm...
One of the things I’m seeing is that we’re ascribing magical qualities to the BofM translation. Our best guess is that it came from the record kept on the brass plates which was one of several copies. These were taken by Nephi just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - a destruction that came because of apostasy. Why would the brass plate version have been more correct than any other early version? When differences are noted, why are we assuming that the BofM version has to be the correct one if Joseph Smith merely translated it?

There are a lot of things inanimate object simply don’t do in real life. But in Biblical prophesy...they do. The desert will rejoice...the potsherds strive together, etc

It would be interesting if the BofM version of these verses were, in fact, the least correct as far as making them plain to the understanding of the non-Hebrew reader.
Let’s put some numbers and ideas behind these scriptures.

Brass plates 600 BC or 100-150 years after Isaiah wrote his words, also pre Babylonian.

Oldest recorded Isaiah outside of BOM 150BC or 550-600 years after Isaiah wrote his words, post Babylon.

I find it funny that no Christian wants to see Isaiah 51:19 being tied into Revelation 11:3

The blasphemy, the Old Testament and New Testament is the same story?
Don’t you think most Christians probably see the OT and the NT as the same story?

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:25 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:12 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 8:07 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: January 5th, 2023, 7:24 pm

Ah, when you read v.18, it's pretty obvious he's talking about people.



Sword and famine do not 'take Jerusalem by the hand'. Further in v. 20:



In the following verses Isaiah then begins to send a message to all these men who are thus afflicted like the wild bull. Verse 21 hearkens back to v. 17 of those acting in a state of drunkenness. So this concept bookends the verses about the sons of Jerusalem. So basically you've got all these people carried away with rage, fury, and rendered incapable of leading the people except for two men. So basically vvs 17-25 is the flow of an inspired idea Isaiah is presenting of the situation the Lord's people are facing. Of all these people you will have two who can see clearly, but the Lord states He will remove this condition (v. 22) so that His people, which have been overrun by the enemy which caused their condition, can come to their senses and Zion can be redeemed.


Hmmm...
One of the things I’m seeing is that we’re ascribing magical qualities to the BofM translation. Our best guess is that it came from the record kept on the brass plates which was one of several copies. These were taken by Nephi just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - a destruction that came because of apostasy. Why would the brass plate version have been more correct than any other early version? When differences are noted, why are we assuming that the BofM version has to be the correct one if Joseph Smith merely translated it?

There are a lot of things inanimate object simply don’t do in real life. But in Biblical prophesy...they do. The desert will rejoice...the potsherds strive together, etc

It would be interesting if the BofM version of these verses were, in fact, the least correct as far as making them plain to the understanding of the non-Hebrew reader.
Let’s put some numbers and ideas behind these scriptures.

Brass plates 600 BC or 100-150 years after Isaiah wrote his words, also pre Babylonian.

Oldest recorded Isaiah outside of BOM 150BC or 550-600 years after Isaiah wrote his words, post Babylon.

I find it funny that no Christian wants to see Isaiah 51:19 being tied into Revelation 11:3

The blasphemy, the Old Testament and New Testament is the same story?
Don’t you think most Christians probably see the OT and the NT as the same story?
Since you are asking this question, I think you would hope they do like I would hope they do.

Most that I ask comment, it was fulfilled by Jesus.

When asking Reluctant watchman about the prophet Nathan and his dealings with king David, he replied he didn’t care, it’s the Old Testament.

I think most Christians don’t care about the Old Testament and care very little about Isaiah. We as a church are blessed that Nephi and JS told us to study Isaiah.

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 11:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:25 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:12 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 8:07 pm

One of the things I’m seeing is that we’re ascribing magical qualities to the BofM translation. Our best guess is that it came from the record kept on the brass plates which was one of several copies. These were taken by Nephi just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - a destruction that came because of apostasy. Why would the brass plate version have been more correct than any other early version? When differences are noted, why are we assuming that the BofM version has to be the correct one if Joseph Smith merely translated it?

There are a lot of things inanimate object simply don’t do in real life. But in Biblical prophesy...they do. The desert will rejoice...the potsherds strive together, etc

It would be interesting if the BofM version of these verses were, in fact, the least correct as far as making them plain to the understanding of the non-Hebrew reader.
Let’s put some numbers and ideas behind these scriptures.

Brass plates 600 BC or 100-150 years after Isaiah wrote his words, also pre Babylonian.

Oldest recorded Isaiah outside of BOM 150BC or 550-600 years after Isaiah wrote his words, post Babylon.

I find it funny that no Christian wants to see Isaiah 51:19 being tied into Revelation 11:3

The blasphemy, the Old Testament and New Testament is the same story?
Don’t you think most Christians probably see the OT and the NT as the same story?
Since you are asking this question, I think you would hope they do like I would hope they do.

Most that I ask comment, it was fulfilled by Jesus.

When asking Reluctant watchman about the prophet Nathan and his dealings with king David, he replied he didn’t care, it’s the Old Testament.

I think most Christians don’t care about the Old Testament and care very little about Isaiah. We as a church are blessed that Nephi and JS told us to study Isaiah.
I guess I partly agree. Out of curiosity, where did JS tell us to study Isaiah?

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 7:07 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 11:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:25 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:12 pm

Let’s put some numbers and ideas behind these scriptures.

Brass plates 600 BC or 100-150 years after Isaiah wrote his words, also pre Babylonian.

Oldest recorded Isaiah outside of BOM 150BC or 550-600 years after Isaiah wrote his words, post Babylon.

I find it funny that no Christian wants to see Isaiah 51:19 being tied into Revelation 11:3

The blasphemy, the Old Testament and New Testament is the same story?
Don’t you think most Christians probably see the OT and the NT as the same story?
Since you are asking this question, I think you would hope they do like I would hope they do.

Most that I ask comment, it was fulfilled by Jesus.

When asking Reluctant watchman about the prophet Nathan and his dealings with king David, he replied he didn’t care, it’s the Old Testament.

I think most Christians don’t care about the Old Testament and care very little about Isaiah. We as a church are blessed that Nephi and JS told us to study Isaiah.
I guess I partly agree. Out of curiosity, where did JS tell us to study Isaiah?
An excellent read about Jospeh Smith and the teachings of Isaiah. He was tutored in Isaiah by Moroni.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... additional

To say Isaiah was sealed to Jospeh Smith is to say he was spiritually blind.

The book of Isaiah is sealed to all except if you have the gift of prophecy. I know this firsthand because it was sealed to me and now I understand it.

We need to embrace our gifts, myself included. I, like Jospeh Smith, am not learned.

9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

All scriptures were opened to Jospeh, doesn’t mean he got to teach them.

Read 2 Nephi 27 and compare it to Isaiah 29. Jospeh knew the words of Isaiah better then the learned men you talk about.

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 7:07 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 11:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 5th, 2023, 10:25 pm

Don’t you think most Christians probably see the OT and the NT as the same story?
Since you are asking this question, I think you would hope they do like I would hope they do.

Most that I ask comment, it was fulfilled by Jesus.

When asking Reluctant watchman about the prophet Nathan and his dealings with king David, he replied he didn’t care, it’s the Old Testament.

I think most Christians don’t care about the Old Testament and care very little about Isaiah. We as a church are blessed that Nephi and JS told us to study Isaiah.
I guess I partly agree. Out of curiosity, where did JS tell us to study Isaiah?
An excellent read about Jospeh Smith and the teachings of Isaiah. He was tutored in Isaiah by Moroni.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... additional

To say Isaiah was sealed to Jospeh Smith is to say he was spiritually blind.

The book of Isaiah is sealed to all except if you have the gift of prophecy. I know this firsthand because it was sealed to me and now I understand it.

We need to embrace our gifts, myself included. I, like Jospeh Smith, am not learned.

9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

All scriptures were opened to Jospeh, doesn’t mean he got to teach them.

Read 2 Nephi 27 and compare it to Isaiah 29. Jospeh knew the words of Isaiah better then the learned men you talk about.
You are taking a lot for granted.

I couldn’t find a single instance where JS says to study Isaiah or talks about the significance of the words of Isaiah. Yes, he translated the content in the BofM and sometimes quoted a verse or two.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 11:57 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 7:07 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 5th, 2023, 11:42 pm

Since you are asking this question, I think you would hope they do like I would hope they do.

Most that I ask comment, it was fulfilled by Jesus.

When asking Reluctant watchman about the prophet Nathan and his dealings with king David, he replied he didn’t care, it’s the Old Testament.

I think most Christians don’t care about the Old Testament and care very little about Isaiah. We as a church are blessed that Nephi and JS told us to study Isaiah.
I guess I partly agree. Out of curiosity, where did JS tell us to study Isaiah?
An excellent read about Jospeh Smith and the teachings of Isaiah. He was tutored in Isaiah by Moroni.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... additional

To say Isaiah was sealed to Jospeh Smith is to say he was spiritually blind.

The book of Isaiah is sealed to all except if you have the gift of prophecy. I know this firsthand because it was sealed to me and now I understand it.

We need to embrace our gifts, myself included. I, like Jospeh Smith, am not learned.

9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

All scriptures were opened to Jospeh, doesn’t mean he got to teach them.

Read 2 Nephi 27 and compare it to Isaiah 29. Jospeh knew the words of Isaiah better then the learned men you talk about.
You are taking a lot for granted.

I couldn’t find a single instance where JS says to study Isaiah or talks about the significance of the words of Isaiah. Yes, he translated the content in the BofM and sometimes quoted a verse or two.
You didn’t read the link that I provided. That is alright.

Do you believe John 10:34?

What profits a Goddess to know more then her God, or in other words, a woman to become more educated then her husband in the words of our lord?

We know from Jeremiah that worshipping a goddess is a sin.

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:06 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 11:57 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 7:07 am

I guess I partly agree. Out of curiosity, where did JS tell us to study Isaiah?
An excellent read about Jospeh Smith and the teachings of Isaiah. He was tutored in Isaiah by Moroni.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... additional

To say Isaiah was sealed to Jospeh Smith is to say he was spiritually blind.

The book of Isaiah is sealed to all except if you have the gift of prophecy. I know this firsthand because it was sealed to me and now I understand it.

We need to embrace our gifts, myself included. I, like Jospeh Smith, am not learned.

9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

All scriptures were opened to Jospeh, doesn’t mean he got to teach them.

Read 2 Nephi 27 and compare it to Isaiah 29. Jospeh knew the words of Isaiah better then the learned men you talk about.
You are taking a lot for granted.

I couldn’t find a single instance where JS says to study Isaiah or talks about the significance of the words of Isaiah. Yes, he translated the content in the BofM and sometimes quoted a verse or two.
You didn’t read the link that I provided. That is alright.

Do you believe John 10:34?

What profits a Goddess to know more then her God, or in other words, a woman to become more educated then her husband in the words of our lord?

We know from Jeremiah that worshipping a goddess is a sin.
Yes, I read it - and that was my response. Did you read it?

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:08 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:06 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 11:57 am
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 9:44 am

An excellent read about Jospeh Smith and the teachings of Isaiah. He was tutored in Isaiah by Moroni.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... additional

To say Isaiah was sealed to Jospeh Smith is to say he was spiritually blind.

The book of Isaiah is sealed to all except if you have the gift of prophecy. I know this firsthand because it was sealed to me and now I understand it.

We need to embrace our gifts, myself included. I, like Jospeh Smith, am not learned.

9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

All scriptures were opened to Jospeh, doesn’t mean he got to teach them.

Read 2 Nephi 27 and compare it to Isaiah 29. Jospeh knew the words of Isaiah better then the learned men you talk about.
You are taking a lot for granted.

I couldn’t find a single instance where JS says to study Isaiah or talks about the significance of the words of Isaiah. Yes, he translated the content in the BofM and sometimes quoted a verse or two.
You didn’t read the link that I provided. That is alright.

Do you believe John 10:34?

What profits a Goddess to know more then her God, or in other words, a woman to become more educated then her husband in the words of our lord?

We know from Jeremiah that worshipping a goddess is a sin.
Yes, I read it - and that was my response. Did you read it?
Yes I did, he justified his prophetic mission through Isaiah.

I’m sure scholars know more then a dead prophet, right?

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Pazooka
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 1:18 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:08 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:06 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 11:57 am

You are taking a lot for granted.

I couldn’t find a single instance where JS says to study Isaiah or talks about the significance of the words of Isaiah. Yes, he translated the content in the BofM and sometimes quoted a verse or two.
You didn’t read the link that I provided. That is alright.

Do you believe John 10:34?

What profits a Goddess to know more then her God, or in other words, a woman to become more educated then her husband in the words of our lord?

We know from Jeremiah that worshipping a goddess is a sin.
Yes, I read it - and that was my response. Did you read it?
Yes I did, he justified his prophetic mission through Isaiah.

I’m sure scholars know more then a dead prophet, right?
Yeah but do you see how having Moroni speak to him about how Isaiah 11 related to his prophetic mission does not necessarily mean the entire record of Isaiah he translated from the brass plates (haha,or the gold plates) was 100% perfect and correct before he translated it. Nor does it have to follow that he is an expert on the content.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 2:18 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 1:18 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:08 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:06 pm

You didn’t read the link that I provided. That is alright.

Do you believe John 10:34?

What profits a Goddess to know more then her God, or in other words, a woman to become more educated then her husband in the words of our lord?

We know from Jeremiah that worshipping a goddess is a sin.
Yes, I read it - and that was my response. Did you read it?
Yes I did, he justified his prophetic mission through Isaiah.

I’m sure scholars know more then a dead prophet, right?
Yeah but do you see how having Moroni speak to him about how Isaiah 11 related to his prophetic mission does not necessarily mean the entire record of Isaiah he translated from the brass plates (haha,or the gold plates) was 100% perfect and correct before he translated it. Nor does it have to follow that he is an expert on the content.
In 1823 Moroni tutored him in Isaiah and in 1844 he taught the message of Isaiah fluently to the church elders.

This is one way to look at this article.

Am I missing something that you read in that article?

Isaiah says we should believe the unlearned man the the lord chose over the learned man.

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Pazooka
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Location: FEMA District 8

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Pazooka »

Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 2:18 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 1:18 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 12:08 pm

Yes, I read it - and that was my response. Did you read it?
Yes I did, he justified his prophetic mission through Isaiah.

I’m sure scholars know more then a dead prophet, right?
Yeah but do you see how having Moroni speak to him about how Isaiah 11 related to his prophetic mission does not necessarily mean the entire record of Isaiah he translated from the brass plates (haha,or the gold plates) was 100% perfect and correct before he translated it. Nor does it have to follow that he is an expert on the content.
In 1823 Moroni tutored him in Isaiah and in 1844 he taught the message of Isaiah fluently to the church elders.

This is one way to look at this article.

Am I missing something that you read in that article?

Isaiah says we should believe the unlearned man the the lord chose over the learned man.
The Lord isn’t advocating for ignorance.

And I’m not sure how you understood that JS was tutored in all of the writings of Isaiah during his interview with Moroni.

Anything that came to us through JS from God is true. All else falls under “the mistakes of men.”

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 4:09 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 6th, 2023, 2:18 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: January 6th, 2023, 1:18 pm

Yes I did, he justified his prophetic mission through Isaiah.

I’m sure scholars know more then a dead prophet, right?
Yeah but do you see how having Moroni speak to him about how Isaiah 11 related to his prophetic mission does not necessarily mean the entire record of Isaiah he translated from the brass plates (haha,or the gold plates) was 100% perfect and correct before he translated it. Nor does it have to follow that he is an expert on the content.
In 1823 Moroni tutored him in Isaiah and in 1844 he taught the message of Isaiah fluently to the church elders.

This is one way to look at this article.

Am I missing something that you read in that article?

Isaiah says we should believe the unlearned man the the lord chose over the learned man.
The Lord isn’t advocating for ignorance.

And I’m not sure how you understood that JS was tutored in all of the writings of Isaiah during his interview with Moroni.

Anything that came to us through JS from God is true. All else falls under “the mistakes of men.”
I only know what the lord tells me. Jospeh was the prophet to bring in this dispensation and women have ruined it…. Per Isaiah 😂

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abijah
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Re: Marred Servant

Post by abijah »

Pazooka wrote: January 3rd, 2023, 8:17 amAnointing is likened to a birth. For this day I have begotten you as my son ~ a saying attributed to female deity (interestingly enough) to the high priest.
fascinating. i knew it was linked with receiving the Spirit, but not with birth itself. I guess that really says something.

1 Samuel 16
12 And he sent and brought David in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he.”
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward.
  • Isaiah 61
    The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor...
Is birth meant to represent the union of body+spirit? Does anointing as a 'new birth' speak to this? 🤔

I've wondered about how God provided a woman (flowing waters) for a man who was alone (barren desert), and have compared-alongside how in recent centuries we have a certain new mental condition called "autism", where there's a suspicious lack of a man to "till the ground" so to speak, where there otherwise should've been, and how Reality (per God's design) has a way of snapping-back on itself to account for 'glitches in the matrix' so to speak, where for some reason there's no man to till the ground, or for some reason there's no woman to be an helpful`adversary.

I wouldntve thought I'd be talking about autism in relation to this lol, but now that I am, it makes sense. I can see how a certain maternal sin gets replicated via a certain 'man'-made hereditary condition.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Marred Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

abijah wrote: January 6th, 2023, 4:46 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 3rd, 2023, 8:17 amAnointing is likened to a birth. For this day I have begotten you as my son ~ a saying attributed to female deity (interestingly enough) to the high priest.
fascinating. i knew it was linked with receiving the Spirit, but not with birth itself. I guess that really says something.

1 Samuel 16
12 And he sent and brought David in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he.”
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward.
  • Isaiah 61
    The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor...
Is birth meant to represent the union of body+spirit? Does anointing as a 'new birth' speak to this? 🤔

I've wondered about how God provided a woman (flowing waters) for a man who was alone (barren desert), and have compared-alongside how in recent centuries we have a certain new mental condition called "autism", where there's a suspicious lack of a man to "till the ground" so to speak, where there otherwise should've been, and how Reality (per God's design) has a way of snapping-back on itself to account for 'glitches in the matrix' so to speak, where for some reason there's no man to till the ground, or for some reason there's no woman to be an helpful`adversary.

I wouldntve thought I'd be talking about autism in relation to this lol, but now that I am, it makes sense. I can see how a certain maternal sin gets replicated via a certain 'man'-made hereditary condition.
Not being born of woman like Macbeth, I always found it interesting that Shakespeare pointed that out in his hero Macbeth.

Luke 7: 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

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