The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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John Tavner
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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:19 am
John Tavner wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:08 am WHen I say "mormon" I mean those with LDS Upbringing and/or traditions- I don't care if you attend church or not or your records are in the church. That poisoning leads to a lot of false premises - which can destroy faith long-term. It's why so many LDS become atheistic or agnostic - including family members I have. Until those premises are removed it causes a lot of faith and trust issues with God.

I have studied James and the BoM. Again tradition you are spouting off without understanding the full context because you use James (a mission tactic) along with 2 Nephi "after all you can do" ignoring the rest of hte BoM and the Bible. Perhaps a study of the Bible would help you understand how much is already clear. I see it all the time how poeple make comparisons. Most of the time it just shows me they haven't studied the Bible and are searching for Key words rather than the message.

Yes that is the exact culture pollution I'm talking about, I'm glad we can agree that there is pollution. I suppose we disagree on what that pollution is.
Ok, given the assumptions you are making, I'll leave this discussion.

A heart that is broken and contrite, truly converted to Jesus, will follow His gospel. That requires action. His gospel is contained in many canons of scripture.
And Both scriptures teach that, but we know from both the Book of Mormon and the Bible that a broken heart and contrite Spirit is submitting to God and accepting His forgiveness. "All we can do" is repeatedly stated through out the Book of Mormon as "accept the forgiveness God offers" Same message in teh New Testament. In the New Testament is is explained as not doing things in order to obtain salvation. You believe, then you do, you don't do, to believe. otherwise it is a dead work, just like James states faith without action is dead, becuase faith is about trusting in the word of God and God Himself.

Faith is not doing something in order to earn something. Faith is believing something and so you accept it and then act. This nuance is intended and important. People are saved by their faith, not their works. Faith leads to works, but works do not save. James is saying "If you believe and are a Son of God and you have to give to your neighbor you can't say "Have faith, God will bless you" when you yourself should know and have faith, that you are God's representation on earth, so you will provide and still bless them that God will provide, you are the beginning of that blessing. Faith means to have a trust in. It is not just "doing." Mormons get it backwards all the time. They constantly wonder if they are forgiven because they don't believe God who says "if you confess your sins you are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness."

Nephi's brother Jacob literally tells us all we can do is repent. The Lamanites who turn into anti-nephi-lehites say "All they could do was repent." They had to submit to mercy of God. We are saved after all we can do, merely by submitting ot God and believing He will. Repentance means to turn towards God and not away. The Bible says "Hey "does you having faith mean you can sin?" Paul says "NO" How can you say that you've been forgiven and then continue living in sin? Just because GOd's grace abounds to save you doesn't mean you keep sinning so that it abounds more. Paul goes on further to say It is by relyingon Christ and trhough being transformed through hte Spirit that we can avoid sin, because we believe that God really is forming us in His image. We can't try and convince God we are changing by doing works, we don't earn our place in heaven by our works, we believe and trust that God is working in us and therefore we begin to change and do works and a new creation - not becaues we are "trying" it is becaues that is who we are becoming. It no longer becomes "God should I help this person" It becomes God How should I help this person?

I agree His gospel is contained in many canons of scripture, but hte New Testametn actually makes it hte most clear. Why? the Gospel means good news. The Good news is that Jesus came, He died, and He was raised from teh dead all to restore us to relationship with the Father, to Show the Father had not cast us off and that we are not condemned (because JEsus came to save not to condemn (new Testametn) His NEw Testament (covenant) is how we can do this. We no longer should perceive ourselves as carnal men, but as men of God, because that is what God called us to be and through the blood of Jesus we can be so - it begins with believing in the truth of what Christ did and in the same way Christ died and was resurrected, we believe that we to will die to our natural man and be resurrected into a Spirit man, in this life (also we will be raised in teh next, but this life is the time to know God). So Jesus then also tells His Disciples "hey everything I told you and have given you is available to everyone else, go and make disciples of the whole world, show them the life I have given them, that their purpose isn't to just "get to heaven" but that they can have the Kingdom of God here on earth, for it dwells within them and my Holy Spriit is a manifestation of that. Teach them to not focus on what is going bad in their life, but ot focus on the life that they can give others in the same way I gave life to them and to you." "They will be free if they believe my words." (He who the Son sets free is free indeed). God Sees you as Holy, blameless and above reproach as long as you continue in the faith (Col, Cor, Gal, etc..) Don't be deceived and get caught back up in the idea that you have to work your way into heaven for Jesus Christ died once for all, you must just continue in the faith (Gal, Romans, Heb)- For the Kingdom of God is already given you (The 4 Gospels). etc etc.. The Gospel is good news, it is about salvation of transformation and of no longer struggling to "be" but letting God work in us through submission (iike a child for unto such is the Kingdom of HEaven) and we are the workmanship of His hands to manifest Christ and created in Christ (we have already been created that way if we received) (Eph 2). When you understand that, then you see that the message God gives in teh BoM in that "He loves all His children and speaks to all of them) is true because He speaks to all of them seeking all of them to come unto Him and be transformed into His image.

Without the context of the Bible, the Book of Mormon doesn't make as much sense- especially when it comes to Christ, the why and the How. SUre it has brief snippets, and mentions Him alot, but the depth is missing the why and how HE was the only one who could do it etc...

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:42 am And...
How about you start a thread on faith and works and how that relates to various canons of scripture, then you can move the discussion there. There was waaayyy to much to parse through in your lengthy explanation. Interesting, though, I gotta give you that.

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nightlight
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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:42 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:19 am
John Tavner wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:08 am WHen I say "mormon" I mean those with LDS Upbringing and/or traditions- I don't care if you attend church or not or your records are in the church. That poisoning leads to a lot of false premises - which can destroy faith long-term. It's why so many LDS become atheistic or agnostic - including family members I have. Until those premises are removed it causes a lot of faith and trust issues with God.

I have studied James and the BoM. Again tradition you are spouting off without understanding the full context because you use James (a mission tactic) along with 2 Nephi "after all you can do" ignoring the rest of hte BoM and the Bible. Perhaps a study of the Bible would help you understand how much is already clear. I see it all the time how poeple make comparisons. Most of the time it just shows me they haven't studied the Bible and are searching for Key words rather than the message.

Yes that is the exact culture pollution I'm talking about, I'm glad we can agree that there is pollution. I suppose we disagree on what that pollution is.
Ok, given the assumptions you are making, I'll leave this discussion.

A heart that is broken and contrite, truly converted to Jesus, will follow His gospel. That requires action. His gospel is contained in many canons of scripture.
And Both scriptures teach that, but we know from both the Book of Mormon and the Bible that a broken heart and contrite Spirit is submitting to God and accepting His forgiveness. "All we can do" is repeatedly stated through out the Book of Mormon as "accept the forgiveness God offers" Same message in teh New Testament. In the New Testament is is explained as not doing things in order to obtain salvation. You believe, then you do, you don't do, to believe. otherwise it is a dead work, just like James states faith without action is dead, becuase faith is about trusting in the word of God and God Himself.

Faith is not doing something in order to earn something. Faith is believing something and so you accept it and then act. This nuance is intended and important. People are saved by their faith, not their works. Faith leads to works, but works do not save. James is saying "If you believe and are a Son of God and you have to give to your neighbor you can't say "Have faith, God will bless you" when you yourself should know and have faith, that you are God's representation on earth, so you will provide and still bless them that God will provide, you are the beginning of that blessing. Faith means to have a trust in. It is not just "doing." Mormons get it backwards all the time. They constantly wonder if they are forgiven because they don't believe God who says "if you confess your sins you are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness."

Nephi's brother Jacob literally tells us all we can do is repent. The Lamanites who turn into anti-nephi-lehites say "All they could do was repent." They had to submit to mercy of God. We are saved after all we can do, merely by submitting ot God and believing He will. Repentance means to turn towards God and not away. The Bible says "Hey "does you having faith mean you can sin?" Paul says "NO" How can you say that you've been forgiven and then continue living in sin? Just because GOd's grace abounds to save you doesn't mean you keep sinning so that it abounds more. Paul goes on further to say It is by relyingon Christ and trhough being transformed through hte Spirit that we can avoid sin, because we believe that God really is forming us in His image. We can't try and convince God we are changing by doing works, we don't earn our place in heaven by our works, we believe and trust that God is working in us and therefore we begin to change and do works and a new creation - not becaues we are "trying" it is becaues that is who we are becoming. It no longer becomes "God should I help this person" It becomes God How should I help this person?

I agree His gospel is contained in many canons of scripture, but hte New Testametn actually makes it hte most clear. Why? the Gospel means good news. The Good news is that Jesus came, He died, and He was raised from teh dead all to restore us to relationship with the Father, to Show the Father had not cast us off and that we are not condemned (because JEsus came to save not to condemn (new Testametn) His NEw Testament (covenant) is how we can do this. We no longer should perceive ourselves as carnal men, but as men of God, because that is what God called us to be and through the blood of Jesus we can be so - it begins with believing in the truth of what Christ did and in the same way Christ died and was resurrected, we believe that we to will die to our natural man and be resurrected into a Spirit man, in this life (also we will be raised in teh next, but this life is the time to know God). So Jesus then also tells His Disciples "hey everything I told you and have given you is available to everyone else, go and make disciples of the whole world, show them the life I have given them, that their purpose isn't to just "get to heaven" but that they can have the Kingdom of God here on earth, for it dwells within them and my Holy Spriit is a manifestation of that. Teach them to not focus on what is going bad in their life, but ot focus on the life that they can give others in the same way I gave life to them and to you." "They will be free if they believe my words." (He who the Son sets free is free indeed). God Sees you as Holy, blameless and above reproach as long as you continue in the faith (Col, Cor, Gal, etc..) Don't be deceived and get caught back up in the idea that you have to work your way into heaven for Jesus Christ died once for all, you must just continue in the faith (Gal, Romans, Heb)- For the Kingdom of God is already given you (The 4 Gospels). etc etc.. The Gospel is good news, it is about salvation of transformation and of no longer struggling to "be" but letting God work in us through submission (iike a child for unto such is the Kingdom of HEaven) and we are the workmanship of His hands to manifest Christ and created in Christ (we have already been created that way if we received) (Eph 2). When you understand that, then you see that the message God gives in teh BoM in that "He loves all His children and speaks to all of them) is true because He speaks to all of them seeking all of them to come unto Him and be transformed into His image.

Without the context of the Bible, the Book of Mormon doesn't make as much sense- especially when it comes to Christ, the why and the How. SUre it has brief snippets, and mentions Him alot, but the depth is missing the why and how HE was the only one who could do it etc...
Great post, brother! but the depth you claim is missing from the BoM is user error

Nephi, Jacob, Alma , Nephi, Mormon, Moroni etc

All these guys teach IN DEPTH on how and why we worship the Messiah. It was difficult for them to carve words in that language....so they couldn't wax like Paul...

But the simplicity of its message is enough to learn how to walk in Christ without ever reading Paul. Not to take away from Paul, I love is work, but they speak the same thing...they are witnesses of the same source. (Vice versa with Paul and the BoM btw.God gives liberally, so treasure both)

22 And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the promise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ.

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
-----------

Moroni is my favorite medium of Jesus of Nazareth

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tmac
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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by tmac »

Again, especially now after reading all the defensive posturing that sounds like “he doth protest a little too much,” I am going to reiterate that compared to the language we see in the other recognized canons, some of the language here just doesn't strike me as the kind of words, terminology and language God would use. So, that could be a translation issue. But I suggest that God might be inclined to avoid muddying the waters through the usage of secular, worldly terms. But that’s just me.
Last edited by tmac on January 18th, 2023, 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

tmac wrote: January 17th, 2023, 12:38 pm Again, especially now after reading all the defensive posturing that sounds like “he doth protest a little too much,” I am going to reiterate that the whole thing essentially lost me at “Policy.” Governments, corporations and insurance companies have “policies.”

God has principles, ordinances and doctrine. I think God knows better than to muddy the waters by referring to any of those by such a secular, worldly term like “policy.” But that’s just me.
What in the world are you talking about?

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tmac
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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by tmac »

Thank you. I rest my case.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

tmac wrote: January 17th, 2023, 1:08 pm Thank you. I rest my case.
So you're gonna get hung up on diction? Ok.

Read the context in which it was used. It was a negative term for LDS culture. Very appropriate actually. There was no reference to the Lord or his doctrine and ordinances. If you had read it for context, maybe you would have realized that.

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John Tavner
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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: January 17th, 2023, 12:37 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:42 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:19 am
John Tavner wrote: January 17th, 2023, 11:08 am WHen I say "mormon" I mean those with LDS Upbringing and/or traditions- I don't care if you attend church or not or your records are in the church. That poisoning leads to a lot of false premises - which can destroy faith long-term. It's why so many LDS become atheistic or agnostic - including family members I have. Until those premises are removed it causes a lot of faith and trust issues with God.

I have studied James and the BoM. Again tradition you are spouting off without understanding the full context because you use James (a mission tactic) along with 2 Nephi "after all you can do" ignoring the rest of hte BoM and the Bible. Perhaps a study of the Bible would help you understand how much is already clear. I see it all the time how poeple make comparisons. Most of the time it just shows me they haven't studied the Bible and are searching for Key words rather than the message.

Yes that is the exact culture pollution I'm talking about, I'm glad we can agree that there is pollution. I suppose we disagree on what that pollution is.
Ok, given the assumptions you are making, I'll leave this discussion.

A heart that is broken and contrite, truly converted to Jesus, will follow His gospel. That requires action. His gospel is contained in many canons of scripture.
And Both scriptures teach that, but we know from both the Book of Mormon and the Bible that a broken heart and contrite Spirit is submitting to God and accepting His forgiveness. "All we can do" is repeatedly stated through out the Book of Mormon as "accept the forgiveness God offers" Same message in teh New Testament. In the New Testament is is explained as not doing things in order to obtain salvation. You believe, then you do, you don't do, to believe. otherwise it is a dead work, just like James states faith without action is dead, becuase faith is about trusting in the word of God and God Himself.

Faith is not doing something in order to earn something. Faith is believing something and so you accept it and then act. This nuance is intended and important. People are saved by their faith, not their works. Faith leads to works, but works do not save. James is saying "If you believe and are a Son of God and you have to give to your neighbor you can't say "Have faith, God will bless you" when you yourself should know and have faith, that you are God's representation on earth, so you will provide and still bless them that God will provide, you are the beginning of that blessing. Faith means to have a trust in. It is not just "doing." Mormons get it backwards all the time. They constantly wonder if they are forgiven because they don't believe God who says "if you confess your sins you are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness."

Nephi's brother Jacob literally tells us all we can do is repent. The Lamanites who turn into anti-nephi-lehites say "All they could do was repent." They had to submit to mercy of God. We are saved after all we can do, merely by submitting ot God and believing He will. Repentance means to turn towards God and not away. The Bible says "Hey "does you having faith mean you can sin?" Paul says "NO" How can you say that you've been forgiven and then continue living in sin? Just because GOd's grace abounds to save you doesn't mean you keep sinning so that it abounds more. Paul goes on further to say It is by relyingon Christ and trhough being transformed through hte Spirit that we can avoid sin, because we believe that God really is forming us in His image. We can't try and convince God we are changing by doing works, we don't earn our place in heaven by our works, we believe and trust that God is working in us and therefore we begin to change and do works and a new creation - not becaues we are "trying" it is becaues that is who we are becoming. It no longer becomes "God should I help this person" It becomes God How should I help this person?

I agree His gospel is contained in many canons of scripture, but hte New Testametn actually makes it hte most clear. Why? the Gospel means good news. The Good news is that Jesus came, He died, and He was raised from teh dead all to restore us to relationship with the Father, to Show the Father had not cast us off and that we are not condemned (because JEsus came to save not to condemn (new Testametn) His NEw Testament (covenant) is how we can do this. We no longer should perceive ourselves as carnal men, but as men of God, because that is what God called us to be and through the blood of Jesus we can be so - it begins with believing in the truth of what Christ did and in the same way Christ died and was resurrected, we believe that we to will die to our natural man and be resurrected into a Spirit man, in this life (also we will be raised in teh next, but this life is the time to know God). So Jesus then also tells His Disciples "hey everything I told you and have given you is available to everyone else, go and make disciples of the whole world, show them the life I have given them, that their purpose isn't to just "get to heaven" but that they can have the Kingdom of God here on earth, for it dwells within them and my Holy Spriit is a manifestation of that. Teach them to not focus on what is going bad in their life, but ot focus on the life that they can give others in the same way I gave life to them and to you." "They will be free if they believe my words." (He who the Son sets free is free indeed). God Sees you as Holy, blameless and above reproach as long as you continue in the faith (Col, Cor, Gal, etc..) Don't be deceived and get caught back up in the idea that you have to work your way into heaven for Jesus Christ died once for all, you must just continue in the faith (Gal, Romans, Heb)- For the Kingdom of God is already given you (The 4 Gospels). etc etc.. The Gospel is good news, it is about salvation of transformation and of no longer struggling to "be" but letting God work in us through submission (iike a child for unto such is the Kingdom of HEaven) and we are the workmanship of His hands to manifest Christ and created in Christ (we have already been created that way if we received) (Eph 2). When you understand that, then you see that the message God gives in teh BoM in that "He loves all His children and speaks to all of them) is true because He speaks to all of them seeking all of them to come unto Him and be transformed into His image.

Without the context of the Bible, the Book of Mormon doesn't make as much sense- especially when it comes to Christ, the why and the How. SUre it has brief snippets, and mentions Him alot, but the depth is missing the why and how HE was the only one who could do it etc...
Great post, brother! but the depth you claim is missing from the BoM is user error

Nephi, Jacob, Alma , Nephi, Mormon, Moroni etc

All these guys teach IN DEPTH on how and why we worship the Messiah. It was difficult for them to carve words in that language....so they couldn't wax like Paul...

But the simplicity of its message is enough to learn how to walk in Christ without ever reading Paul. Not to take away from Paul, I love is work, but they speak the same thing...they are witnesses of the same source. (Vice versa with Paul and the BoM btw.God gives liberally, so treasure both)

22 And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the promise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ.

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
-----------

Moroni is my favorite medium of Jesus of Nazareth
You are right that it teaches Christ and anyone, anywhere can cry unto Him and receive forgiveness and the HOly Spirit regardless of how much they know. That I agree is true - I was reminded of that by God as I was driving after I made the previous post. God basically reminded me that anyone can come to Him as a little child and with child like faith they will receive and if someone reads the BoM with child like faith, they will have enough to receive the Holy Ghost - regardless of how much knowledge they ahve the of Life of Christ.

I think is some ways we agree and some ways we disagree and you bring up good points- I wrote up along response kind of distinguishing hte nuances, but I think the above suffices. I guess I believe that much of the BoM presupposes that the person has read and understands the BIble (it was written for our day, after all) and with the backdrop of the Bible fully understood, I think it resolves and removes many false traditions mormons have formed from reading just the Book of Mormon (if they've actually read teh book rather than heard waht someone has told them about the book) -whether those traditions come from simple readings without studying or from ignorant teachers. I know even with my understanding because of how many times I read the Book of Mormon under false traditions it is harder for me to see it with a Child's eyes, though I suppose I should ask God, because HE will give it, and it will resolve any "user error" I may have, so thanks for making me think about it a bit. .

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Discussed this with the kids this morning. A deeper study of what this “manner of governance” is, is of particular interest to me. Tsi Tuhgohhah comes in early in the history of these people (a friend to Hagoth) and was a Lamanite general who covenanted with Moroni to put down his weapons of war. He then went to live with the Ammonites and documents in great detail their method of worship and way of living. I would think any student of the BoM would be fascinated to have more insights into the culture of the Ammonites. There are also some sad realities we are taught about how the cultures and methods of worship of the Ammonites were not welcome in the Nephite culture.

As far as the quote below, verse 9 is a beautiful depiction of how we should perceive ourselves, as well as our brothers and sisters:
8) And behold, our settlements and our villages are all governed in the manner of governance given us by TsiTuhgohhah and Pah Hehmehntehm. Yea, we do revere them today, just as my grandfather did in his day, for the system of governance they gave us. And this system does not only bring prosperity such that there is not found any want among us, but also it brings to our hearts contentment in our place and station. For, we are one, each other’s relations and keepers, and we have all things in common.

9) And we do not raise up unto ourselves Kings or Queens to rule over us, but we are Priests and Kings, Priestesses and Queens unto Creator. Wherefore, what need have we of such rulers in the land, when every man and every woman of the Nemenhah may make such claim? And if we are all Priests and Kings, how may there be any beggar among us? For, what royal would see his near kinsman suffer for want of food or drink? And what King would suffer his kin to sit in the gutter and beg for a scrap to wear?
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 23rd, 2023, 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

Post by FrankOne »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 17th, 2023, 7:16 am
tmac wrote: January 17th, 2023, 7:14 am So, it sounds like you must have received a spiritual witness — that it is the word of God?
I never ask if "it" is the word of God. Just like I don't ask if the BoM is true. Is the overall premise "true", that it is a record of a people who lived and struggled? Yes, I believe so. From there we study individual doctrines and ask if each is true.

In this record, I also study the precepts and doctrines. I believe the general narrative to be accurate. And yes, there are heavenly precepts taught, even providing a blueprint for a Zion-like society.

Just as the Bible is a supporting witness to the Book of Mormon, the Nemenhah Records add even more clarity to all of these records.

I am often taken aback that people love to inject their opinion about a subject that they know so little about. I'd feel a tad bit disingenuous if I commented about a book that I'd never read.
thanks for that ^ .

the delineation of what 'true' means in the context of scriptures and history is a difficult work.

when i was about to go on a mission, i had to know for sure that the bom was 'true'. when i prayed over it for a few days, i did receive an incredible and undeniable burning in my chest. it was nothing short of extraordinary.

some 20 yrs later, I began to understand the ambiguity of the term 'true'.

an actual account of men in history? , i certainly believe it is. (the bom). Are all the words a pure doctrine of Christ? In my estimation, no. What is doctrine? Well, we would have to assign a time period to doctrine, wouldn't we? Doctrine has continually changed from Adam to the present. The bom and the nemenhah records are historical accounts written by men in their own understanding based on the level that they lived. God didn't write either one of those books.

The absolute truth is a dangerous thing to the far majority of people. Razor blades are not given to children as toys. We all have our limitations as to how much reality we can accept without being damaged.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Later in the record the weather begins to turn and become inhospitable. Cold and drought cause many to flee to other cities, diminishing the surplus in those cities. At the same time there are some who have dreams and visions of future events. They hold a council to hear these dreams and visions, to learn if any of it is from God.

One man in particular claimed to have visions, yet he requested payment before speaking of what he was shown. He also used this as an opportunity to preach his flavor of religion, which was heavily set upon keys and authority, and not upon verifying all things through the Holy Ghost.

Toward the end another man stands and asks if all of these dreamers/visionaries had confirmed their words through the HG. All but this one man had. The man peddling priestcraft condemned all of them with great emotion. Here is the response of the man who requested if all had received a witness of the HG: (Nemenhah Records, 1st Ed., pp. 374-377)
94) It is good that we forgive Pohohrihm. For he is zealous in a cause that he feels is the most important in the world. Indeed, we ought to reverence his great seriousness in the pursuing of that which is so important to him. In many ways, he is an ensample unto us. For, shouldn’t we also be as zealous in preaching the word of the Peacemaker? Wherefore, let us forgive his outbursts. They were mostly for my benefit, and I certainly forgive him.
I have learned a great lesson from this. Here on the forum we get very passionate about what we feel is right. Often when these opinions come to a head, we begin lashing out with personal attacks. I have personally made light of others who I feel cannot see things as I do. This is something I need to repent of.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Another interesting aspect to bring out from this story is how some of the people in the cities reacted. With the great influx of people, those who had worked so hard to build up a surplus were complaining as they saw the food and supplies be depleted.
3) For this cause, all the cities of the mountains were overburdened and had difficulty absorbing the increase in
their numbers. Yea, production each year is based upon anticipated need and all the stewardships are given upon that basis. But, because refugees came in great numbers and without planning, the anticipated need became inaccurate. Consequently, the surplus was used up very quickly.

4) Now, this condition began to create hardship and even some hardness of feeling. Yea, some who worked with their might to produce all that the community needed and surplus, chafed to see the surplus disappear so quickly. Yea, they feared that, in the case of emergency in their own cities, there would not be enough to provide for all because so many incomers were to be cared for first.
I fully anticipate these events to happen in our day. At some point in time, the need will outpace any surplus. It will break the hearts of those who truly love their neighbor to watch either their loved ones or their neighbors die from want.

In one of the dreams (noted in the previous comment) it was shown that those suffering and roaming around, broke into the homes of those whom they thought had plenty, killing them, only to find out that they were just as destitute as the pillagers. Thus throwing them into a frenzy and roaming from town to town with death and destruction. Not a pretty sight.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Another tidbit to chew on.
96) For, if we fail to prepare after having such warnings, there can be no complaint in the time of calamity that our Peacemaker sees not to our need.
Have we been warned? Do we understand the prophesies in scripture that relate to our day? Are we preparing accordingly? Ignorance will not be sufficient a cause to plead our case before the Lord.

He continues explaining the challenges some of them have already experienced in the East and the challenges they face ahead:
104) Yea, they have had to learn to live with neighbors who are of different beliefs and opinions, even as we see that we shall have to learn tolerance of our neighbors.

105) We know that our people can lay aside that which they need against a coming want. What we do not know is how other people will react. Will they be ready? And if they are not, what demands will they make upon their neighbors? Is there any way that we might stand prepared for them, should they all come into our land and demand that which we have set aside in order that our own might not want? Behold, is this not the question?
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on January 22nd, 2023, 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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After seven days of the council meeting and discussing they decided upon storing up excess surplus and not to build up defenses, which I feel to be a great lesson for us all in the days in which we are living. I would add a word of caution, living in a large city when times of leanness come will not be pleasant. Hoards of angry people and gangs will roam those parts of our nation.
111) Therefore, let us labor with our might as we have always done to produce a surplus. Behold, this has always been our purpose, but we have not had many who needed so much as shall come into our midst before long. Wherefore, we have had no need to redouble our efforts and to work with all our energy. Let us aspire to labor with every energy in us to provide for the lack and the want that shall surely come upon us. Behold, this is the only way that there shall continue to be meat in the Peacemaker’s House.

112) But of our neighbors we can never be certain. Will they also do as we do? It is more likely that they will not. And when they are starving because the rains do not come, and they see our abundance, what shall we do when they do come unto us? Hopefully, there will be enough to go around even for them.

113) One thing is very certain, we must not think that we can prepare ourselves to make defense of our surplus. This is a lesson hard taught by our forefathers. Let us not think in that direction at all. For to do so would be to overturn Peace. The Nemenhah did this once before because of the perceived disaster of war which was about to rampage through the land. But they did check themselves before all was lost and we enjoy our freedom today because of them.
The reference to their forefathers is significant here. In times past they built up an army in preparation for war from the inhabitants of the South, namely the Nephites and Lamanites. All of these preparations almost destroyed their way of life. The prophet at the time, who set in motion the counsel to build an army, had this to say:
...Behold, my people did follow the Great High Priest in Mentinah as if he were God Himself, believing that I could not lead them off His path. Yea, they were all of the belief that God would smite me ere I could ever lead them astray. And smite me He has, with the certain knowledge that, if my people continue to follow my counsels, they shall all be destroyed.

Wherefore, I do leave my stewardship with this counsel; Lean upon God. Importune Him in all things. Cry unto Him even when He has given you visions! Cry unto Him even when He has blessed you with the Gifts of the Spirit! Cry unto Him even when He has walked with you and talked with you! Do not tempt the Lord your God in any thing, but cry unto Him unceasingly.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 8:53 am
I would add a word of caution, living in a large city when times of leanness come will not be pleasant. Hoards of angry people and gangs will roam those parts of our nation.

it is difficult to experience the reaction of people when I have warned them of what is going to happen in the cities. I have had a few profound experiences in the future which were as real as this current life. The destruction and horror of it is unimaginable. I have always referred to John taylors vision because it matches what I have experienced. I guess that the majority of people in cities, that are of christian faith believe that it won't happen in their lives and i can understand that.

from JT's vision and others, even SLC will be decimated by some 50% or so. All that has to happen is the power to go off nationwide for 2 weeks. We do choose our pain.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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I found this to be a fitting conclusion to the verses I quoted earlier:
One thing I do know, and this I know in my heart, and that is that we must not live out this generation in fear of that which shall come to our grandchildren. Let us work and do all that we can do to prevent that our actions might add to their adversity, but let us do it with full faith and hope that our Peacemaker shall be as much a Savior unto them as He is unto us.
We should do all we can to approach the prophesied events before us with faith and hope in Christ.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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FrankOne wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:59 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 8:53 am
I would add a word of caution, living in a large city when times of leanness come will not be pleasant. Hoards of angry people and gangs will roam those parts of our nation.

it is difficult to experience the reaction of people when I have warned them of what is going to happen in the cities. I have had a few profound experiences in the future which were as real as this current life. The destruction and horror of it is unimaginable. I have always referred to John taylors vision because it matches what I have experienced. I guess that the majority of people in cities, that are of christian faith believe that it won't happen in their lives and i can understand that.

from JT's vision and others, even SLC will be decimated by some 50% or so. All that has to happen is the power to go off nationwide for 2 weeks. We do choose our pain.
Isaiah alludes to the idea that a tithe (one tenth) will remain after the period of tribulation.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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God’s version of “Climate Change.”
10) Wherefore, let this be a warning unto all who may read these things. Yea, let my voice rise up from the earth, that my teaching be had in the ears of them that hear. Speak ever words of peace and walk ever lightly upon the earth which does support you. And keep your eyes open and observe ever the changing earth. For, in the day that she desires to be cleansed of unrighteousness, then too shall you feel the need to sweep out the house and cleanse the inner vessel.

19) And when the earth does cast up smoke and steam, the stewards shall observe her doing with reverence and wonder, but without fear. For they shall understand that even as we must cleanse out the filth of the world from our own bodies, so must the earth. And they shall see this cleansing not as a thing fearsome and flee, but as a thing wondrous and they shall take it as an ensample unto them.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Hmmmm… I wonder who this sounds like?
44) The High Priest is the mouthpiece of the Peacemaker. You may have confidence in him because of his calling. Behold, the Peacemaker does raise up Prophets in our day in His own way and for His own purpose. Yea, He does teach them and instruct them from their youth and through many years of faithful service they do learn His will and His word for the people. You must listen to the voice of His chosen servant in order to do the same. If you love the Peacemaker, then you will follow that which His Prophet shall give you in form of commandment. This is the manner in which we demonstrate our love for the Peacemaker and that we will be faithful unto Him and His gospel.

48) Behold, when the High Priest speaks, it is as if the Peacemaker Himself has spoken. How then shall the Holy Ghost usurp the Peacemaker or make conquest of His word and His will? Behold, if you ask of the Holy Ghost and receive ought in conflict with the words of the High Priest, you must consider the source of your revelation. It is all well and good to seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost, but if you receive anything but that which comes out of the mouth of the Prophet, it is not of the Holy Ghost but of some other spirit. Have a care! For this is apostasy and evil speaking of him whom the Peacemaker has raised up.
Remember Rasband, “When Nelson speaks, he speaks for the Lord.”

Let me quote what my stake president said to me in an email:

“I am always saddened when I hear of someone declaring, for example, that he or she has received revelation that contradicts the prophet and apostles. That person may know, with certainty, that he or she is in apostasy and needs to turn and repent.”

The parallels are mind blowing. I hope this gives some of you a better frame of reference as to how I perceive the church. The man who was teaching these doctrines was deceived.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 8:06 pm Hmmmm… I wonder who this sounds like?
44) The High Priest is the mouthpiece of the Peacemaker. You may have confidence in him because of his calling. Behold, the Peacemaker does raise up Prophets in our day in His own way and for His own purpose. Yea, He does teach them and instruct them from their youth and through many years of faithful service they do learn His will and His word for the people. You must listen to the voice of His chosen servant in order to do the same. If you love the Peacemaker, then you will follow that which His Prophet shall give you in form of commandment. This is the manner in which we demonstrate our love for the Peacemaker and that we will be faithful unto Him and His gospel.

48) Behold, when the High Priest speaks, it is as if the Peacemaker Himself has spoken. How then shall the Holy Ghost usurp the Peacemaker or make conquest of His word and His will? Behold, if you ask of the Holy Ghost and receive ought in conflict with the words of the High Priest, you must consider the source of your revelation. It is all well and good to seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost, but if you receive anything but that which comes out of the mouth of the Prophet, it is not of the Holy Ghost but of some other spirit. Have a care! For this is apostasy and evil speaking of him whom the Peacemaker has raised up.
Remember Rasband, “When Nelson speaks, he speaks for the Lord.”

Let me quote what my stake president said to me in an email:

“I am always saddened when I hear of someone declaring, for example, that he or she has received revelation that contradicts the prophet and apostles. That person may know, with certainty, that he or she is in apostasy and needs to turn and repent.”

The parallels are mind blowing. I hope this gives some of you a better frame of reference as to how I perceive the church. The man who was teaching these doctrines was deceived.
I know I’ve said this before…. But now I’m ready to dive in…. What is the best website to start? Which book? Please help me get started…
Also, can you give me the reference for the verses you’ve quoted here?

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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cab wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm
I know I’ve said this before…. But now I’m ready to dive in…. What is the best website to start? Which book? Please help me get started…
Also, can you give me the reference for the verses you’ve quoted here?
The best place to start is the original post in this thread. I have links where you can purchase either a PDF or printed book. I enjoy reading the PDF version on my iPad using an app called “Documents.” It allows for full document searching, and complete ability to highlight, mark up, tag, annotate, cross reference, etc. If you want the reference above, it’s a quick word/phrase search.

As far as where to begin… the beginning is the best place if you’ve never read it before. It really sets the context for the rest of the books. I even hesitate to share with you the book where this quote above was taken from because you’ll miss all of the context leading up to it and which religious group this man came from. Moroni actually had a confrontation with originator of that religion. Knowing that puts all of this into perspective.

I sometimes hesitate to quote even a handful or group of verses because there is often much more going on contextually.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:36 pm
cab wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm
I know I’ve said this before…. But now I’m ready to dive in…. What is the best website to start? Which book? Please help me get started…
Also, can you give me the reference for the verses you’ve quoted here?
The best place to start is the original post in this thread. I have links where you can purchase either a PDF or printed book. I enjoy reading the PDF version on my iPad using an app called “Documents.” It allows for full document searching, and complete ability to highlight, mark up, tag, annotate, cross reference, etc. If you want the reference above, it’s a quick word/phrase search.

As far as where to begin… the beginning is the best place if you’ve never read it before. It really sets the context for the rest of the books. I even hesitate to share with you the book where this quote above was taken from because you’ll miss all of the context leading up to it and which religious group this man came from. Moroni actually had a confrontation with originator of that religion. Knowing that puts all of this into perspective.

I sometimes hesitate to quote even a handful or group of verses because there is often much more going on contextually.

Thanks.
Yeah, that’s the difficulty I’ve found with these is that when snipets are shared, it seems soooo “spot on”…. My mom loves the records and has shared such quotes…
I obviously agree with what’s said. I agree that these are fundamental problems facing our people today that have led us to inherit false beliefs. It’s just when it’s word for word that it’s hard not to suspect it being less historical (though perhaps still inspired in some way)…
But YES, I will try reading in context…

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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cab wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 11:23 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:36 pm
cab wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 9:16 pm
I know I’ve said this before…. But now I’m ready to dive in…. What is the best website to start? Which book? Please help me get started…
Also, can you give me the reference for the verses you’ve quoted here?
The best place to start is the original post in this thread. I have links where you can purchase either a PDF or printed book. I enjoy reading the PDF version on my iPad using an app called “Documents.” It allows for full document searching, and complete ability to highlight, mark up, tag, annotate, cross reference, etc. If you want the reference above, it’s a quick word/phrase search.

As far as where to begin… the beginning is the best place if you’ve never read it before. It really sets the context for the rest of the books. I even hesitate to share with you the book where this quote above was taken from because you’ll miss all of the context leading up to it and which religious group this man came from. Moroni actually had a confrontation with originator of that religion. Knowing that puts all of this into perspective.

I sometimes hesitate to quote even a handful or group of verses because there is often much more going on contextually.

Thanks.
Yeah, that’s the difficulty I’ve found with these is that when snipets are shared, it seems soooo “spot on”…. My mom loves the records and has shared such quotes…
I obviously agree with what’s said. I agree that these are fundamental problems facing our people today that have led us to inherit false beliefs. It’s just when it’s word for word that it’s hard not to suspect it being less historical (though perhaps still inspired in some way)…
But YES, I will try reading in context…
Keep in mind, the quotes above pre-date any of the latter/modern quotes by a long ways. Also, as you work your way through the record, the parallels to the BoM are beyond accurate. I feel it is near impossible to weave the historical and doctrinal narrative from the BoM into a record like this without being one of the greatest BoM scholars and writers that I’ve ever seen. Not to mention the ability to teach with doctrinal clarity that far surpasses any written word that I’ve ever pondered. And to introduce advanced discourses on faith, the doctrine of Christ, second comforter, and the overarching importance of listening to the Holy Ghost.

And I’ll also say, there are things that will certainly challenge your religious paradigms if you were raised in the LDS church, that is certain. I hope to touch on those topics here, but just the little I’ve tried to point out in various threads on the forum has been met with pretty staunch resistance.

It should also be noted, either the translators/writers today were keenly aware of LDS culture, like on a very intimate level, or this puppy is what is says it is. They touch on almost all aspects of the LDS religious experience. The latter-day prophesies of the restoration and eventual corruption are like I’m reading from an LDS scholar who’s awakened to the distortions of power, keys, authority, false traditions, the whole ball of wax. I believe they saw our day.

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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I know the wording is slightly different here, but it is a carbon copy of the philosophy that so completely permeates LDS culture. “The prophet can never lead you astray.”
58) When the Peacemaker calls up a High Priest in this city, by the mouth of him whom He has chosen to guide the church, the people will at last be led in all ways by the Creator of heaven and earth. Yea, he who holds the keys of the Peacemaker’s work here in His own house and vineyard, is steward and governs all other laborers. Surely, you can see the order that is brought into the house when the steward is obeyed.
Christ was pretty clear about his viewpoint on blind obedience: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye

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Re: The Nemenhah Records—Thoughts & Impressions

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I want to interject something here. If you are a woman, I can think of no record that presents such a beautiful depiction of how our Heavenly Parents know who you are and the gifts you have been given, even certain gifts conveyed by Mother before entering mortality. IMO there was a perfect balance between male and female roles. False traditions throughout the ages have done so much to destroy the true nature of who you are.

And for those men out there, I’m not talking about these Feminist movements that promote role reversals.

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