Paul the False Apostle

[Pazooka]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people…

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher.

A very Pauline Christian perspective.

The Book of Jubilees has even the angels as circumcised.

What is done in the temple in heaven, according to prophets who have ascended there? It would be some of what you call “dead works.”

Remember the Old Testament prophecy that Angel Moroni quoted to Joseph Smith about what was yet to come:

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

From what I can tell from scriptures, when the Gentiles have had their day, the Israelites among them will rise and the law will be restored, not as it was during the Herodian high priests of Paul’s day, but as it was originally given.

[nightlight]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people…

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher.

From what I can tell from scriptures, when the Gentiles have had their day, the Israelites among them will rise and the law will be restored, not as it was during the Herodian high priests of Paul’s day, but as it was originally given.

While I disagree with your "law" conclusion(which I provided multiple scriptures from the Book of Mormon to prove my point btw )........

I do agree with you about the Israelites standing up in this Promised Land


Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

[Pazooka]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people…

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher.

From what I can tell from scriptures, when the Gentiles have had their day, the Israelites among them will rise and the law will be restored, not as it was during the Herodian high priests of Paul’s day, but as it was originally given.

While I disagree with your "law" conclusion(which I provided multiple scriptures from the Book of Mormon to prove my point btw )........

I do agree with you about the Israelites standing up in this Promised Land


Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

Did the BofM prophets think that the Ten Commandments were to be done away? Aren’t those the crux of the Mosaic law? What do you make of the prophecy of Malachi, specifically reference to the law given to Moses with its statutes and judgements?

Regrettably, I did Ancestry because it was a gift from my parents, years ago.

[nightlight]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people…

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher.

From what I can tell from scriptures, when the Gentiles have had their day, the Israelites among them will rise and the law will be restored, not as it was during the Herodian high priests of Paul’s day, but as it was originally given.

While I disagree with your "law" conclusion(which I provided multiple scriptures from the Book of Mormon to prove my point btw )........

I do agree with you about the Israelites standing up in this Promised Land


Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

Did the BofM prophets think that the Ten Commandments were to be done away? Aren’t those the crux of the Mosaic law? What do you make of the prophecy of Malachi, specifically reference to the law given to Moses with its statutes and judgements?

Regrettably, I did Ancestry because it was a gift from my parents, years ago.

The law was given during the Sermon On The Mount.
The people of Christ will never again sacrifice animals, burn prayers, cut foreskin
Etc
The Book of Mormon plainly teaches this.
Lol you can say the BoM is wrong.....BUT you can't claim it doesn't say all these things

Anyway.....

What were your results?

[Pazooka]

From what I can tell from scriptures, when the Gentiles have had their day, the Israelites among them will rise and the law will be restored, not as it was during the Herodian high priests of Paul’s day, but as it was originally given.

While I disagree with your "law" conclusion(which I provided multiple scriptures from the Book of Mormon to prove my point btw )........

I do agree with you about the Israelites standing up in this Promised Land


Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

Did the BofM prophets think that the Ten Commandments were to be done away? Aren’t those the crux of the Mosaic law? What do you make of the prophecy of Malachi, specifically reference to the law given to Moses with its statutes and judgements?

Regrettably, I did Ancestry because it was a gift from my parents, years ago.

The law was given during the Sermon On The Mount.
The people of Christ will never again sacrifice animals, burn prayers, cut foreskin
Etc
The Book of Mormon plainly teaches this.
Lol you can say the BoM is wrong.....BUT you can't claim it doesn't say all these things

Anyway.....

What were your results?

My results were exactly what Family Search says (which you give Ancestry access to).

I’m mostly Scandinavian via Switzerland with some British Isles thrown in and even a teeny bit of Native American.

[Niemand]

Link back to this article in this thread.

Antilegomena: the books which barely made it into the Bible - includes discussion of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians and Hebrews
viewtopic.php?t=69609

[Pazooka]

Jude 1 is a warning to the Saints of the time and a call to contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. It appears to have been written with Paul in mind. Not only mentioning Balaam (whose story parallels Pauls) but also Korah, the man who led a rebellion against Moses.

…on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings ~ Jude 1:8

“Ungodly” is a reference to verse 4’s certain men…crept in unawares…ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiouslness. Literally turning grace into unbridled freedom…the freedom of grace that Paul boasts of so often.

Bodily pollution being the casting aside of dietary laws and prohibitions on the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

Rejecting authority being Paul’s general attitude toward the rightful leadership in Jerusalem.

Heaping abuse (slander) on celestial/glorious beings as the constant stream of diatribe of Paul against angels:
- speaking against the “voluntary humility and worship of angels” (Col 2:18)
- “nor angels…shall be able to separate us from the love of God” (Rom 8)
- “we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men…and made fools for Christ’s sake” (1 Cor 4:9-10)
- “Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?” (1 Cor 6:3)

Spewing arrogance and speaking great swelling words (Jude 1:16) There is no way Jude didn’t paint the perfect picture of Paul in his warning epistle. Both he and James AND Peter all speak and warn of Paul in language so precise their audience would have been left with no doubt to whom they were referring.

[John Tavner]

Jude 1 is a warning to the Saints of the time and a call to contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. It appears to have been written with Paul in mind. Not only mentioning Balaam (whose story parallels Pauls) but also Korah, the man who led a rebellion against Moses.

…on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings ~ Jude 1:8

“Ungodly” is a reference to verse 4’s certain men…crept in unawares…ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiouslness. Literally turning grace into unbridled freedom…the freedom of grace that Paul boasts of so often.

Bodily pollution being the casting aside of dietary laws and prohibitions on the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

Rejecting authority being Paul’s general attitude toward the rightful leadership in Jerusalem.

Heaping abuse (slander) on celestial/glorious beings as the constant stream of diatribe of Paul against angels:
- speaking against the “voluntary humility and worship of angels” (Col 2:18)
- “nor angels…shall be able to separate us from the love of God” (Rom 8)
- “we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men…and made fools for Christ’s sake” (1 Cor 4:9-10)
- “Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?” (1 Cor 6:3)

Spewing arrogance and speaking great swelling words (Jude 1:16) There is no way Jude didn’t paint the perfect picture of Paul in his warning epistle. Both he and James AND Peter all speak and warn of Paul in language so precise their audience would have been left with no doubt to whom they were referring.

so you believe in voluntary humility (man made humility vs God humility) and in worshiping angels?

You believe that angels CAN separate us from the love of God?

You believe the Angels weren't watching hte Apostles as they suffered for His namesake?

What do you believe an angel is? We know according to Job 4:18 that God charges angels with error.


Jude: 5Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling— these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Paul: We will judge angels. Also Homosexuality is bad.

Pazooka: Slander!

Jude: God locked up a bunch of angels for judgement, just like Sodom and Gommorah, who indulged in sexual immorality- these slanderers defile bodies, reject authority (Christ's) and slander the glory of God (look at the word)

Pazooka: CLEARLY Jude is talking about Paul...

[Niemand]

Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

My results were exactly what Family Search says (which you give Ancestry access to).

I’m mostly Scandinavian via Switzerland with some British Isles thrown in and even a teeny bit of Native American.

Not attempting a thread hijack but a quick diversion. I wouldn't trust these companies as far as I could throw them. Ancestry has been bought up by BlackRock and has been selling genetic data on (which I think was the main aim... to build up a genetic database.)

[Pazooka]

Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

My results were exactly what Family Search says (which you give Ancestry access to).

I’m mostly Scandinavian via Switzerland with some British Isles thrown in and even a teeny bit of Native American.

Not attempting a thread hijack but a quick diversion. I wouldn't trust these companies as far as I could throw them. Ancestry has been bought up by BlackRock and has been selling genetic data on (which I think was the main aim... to build up a genetic database.)

Hence my regret

[Pazooka]

Jude 1 is a warning to the Saints of the time and a call to contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. It appears to have been written with Paul in mind. Not only mentioning Balaam (whose story parallels Pauls) but also Korah, the man who led a rebellion against Moses.

…on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings ~ Jude 1:8

“Ungodly” is a reference to verse 4’s certain men…crept in unawares…ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiouslness. Literally turning grace into unbridled freedom…the freedom of grace that Paul boasts of so often.

Bodily pollution being the casting aside of dietary laws and prohibitions on the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

Rejecting authority being Paul’s general attitude toward the rightful leadership in Jerusalem.

Heaping abuse (slander) on celestial/glorious beings as the constant stream of diatribe of Paul against angels:
- speaking against the “voluntary humility and worship of angels” (Col 2:18)
- “nor angels…shall be able to separate us from the love of God” (Rom 8)
- “we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men…and made fools for Christ’s sake” (1 Cor 4:9-10)
- “Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?” (1 Cor 6:3)

Spewing arrogance and speaking great swelling words (Jude 1:16) There is no way Jude didn’t paint the perfect picture of Paul in his warning epistle. Both he and James AND Peter all speak and warn of Paul in language so precise their audience would have been left with no doubt to whom they were referring.

so you believe in voluntary humility (man made humility vs God humility) and in worshiping angels?

You believe that angels CAN separate us from the love of God?

You believe the Angels weren't watching hte Apostles as they suffered for His namesake?

What do you believe an angel is? We know according to Job 4:18 that God charges angels with error.


Jude: 5Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling— these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Paul: We will judge angels. Also Homosexuality is bad.

Pazooka: Slander!

Jude: God locked up a bunch of angels for judgement, just like Sodom and Gommorah, who indulged in sexual immorality- these slanderers defile bodies, reject authority (Christ's) and slander the glory of God (look at the word)

Pazooka: CLEARLY Jude is talking about Paul...

Regardless of my own philosophy regarding angels, it is clear that Jude is describing Paul’s infamous teachings, which do not involve the fallen angels you mention but, rather, “glorious” beings.

[John Tavner]

Jude 1 is a warning to the Saints of the time and a call to contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. It appears to have been written with Paul in mind. Not only mentioning Balaam (whose story parallels Pauls) but also Korah, the man who led a rebellion against Moses.

…on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings ~ Jude 1:8

“Ungodly” is a reference to verse 4’s certain men…crept in unawares…ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiouslness. Literally turning grace into unbridled freedom…the freedom of grace that Paul boasts of so often.

Bodily pollution being the casting aside of dietary laws and prohibitions on the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

Rejecting authority being Paul’s general attitude toward the rightful leadership in Jerusalem.

Heaping abuse (slander) on celestial/glorious beings as the constant stream of diatribe of Paul against angels:
- speaking against the “voluntary humility and worship of angels” (Col 2:18)
- “nor angels…shall be able to separate us from the love of God” (Rom 8)
- “we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men…and made fools for Christ’s sake” (1 Cor 4:9-10)
- “Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?” (1 Cor 6:3)

Spewing arrogance and speaking great swelling words (Jude 1:16) There is no way Jude didn’t paint the perfect picture of Paul in his warning epistle. Both he and James AND Peter all speak and warn of Paul in language so precise their audience would have been left with no doubt to whom they were referring.

It
so you believe in voluntary humility (man made humility vs God humility) and in worshiping angels?

You believe that angels CAN separate us from the love of God?

You believe the Angels weren't watching hte Apostles as they suffered for His namesake?

What do you believe an angel is? We know according to Job 4:18 that God charges angels with error.


Jude: 5Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling— these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Paul: We will judge angels. Also Homosexuality is bad.

Pazooka: Slander!

Jude: God locked up a bunch of angels for judgement, just like Sodom and Gommorah, who indulged in sexual immorality- these slanderers defile bodies, reject authority (Christ's) and slander the glory of God (look at the word)

Pazooka: CLEARLY Jude is talking about Paul...

Regardless of my own philosophy regarding angels, it is clear that Jude is describing Paul’s infamous teachings, which do not involve the fallen angels you mention but, rather, “glorious” beings.

It is not clear. It is only what you want to see. Could there be an argument made for it.. Yes. Is it what is happening? Doubtful- more aligns with Paul and Jude than doesn't. Also glorious beings can be translated the glory of God or that which is good.

You know what would be clear? If they just said his name, but they don't. And if you don't like Paul, you make an assumption they are talking about him, because of a premise you ahve established in your heart and mind.

[Pazooka]

Jude 1 is a warning to the Saints of the time and a call to contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. It appears to have been written with Paul in mind. Not only mentioning Balaam (whose story parallels Pauls) but also Korah, the man who led a rebellion against Moses.



“Ungodly” is a reference to verse 4’s certain men…crept in unawares…ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiouslness. Literally turning grace into unbridled freedom…the freedom of grace that Paul boasts of so often.

Bodily pollution being the casting aside of dietary laws and prohibitions on the eating of things sacrificed to idols.

Rejecting authority being Paul’s general attitude toward the rightful leadership in Jerusalem.

Heaping abuse (slander) on celestial/glorious beings as the constant stream of diatribe of Paul against angels:
- speaking against the “voluntary humility and worship of angels” (Col 2:18)
- “nor angels…shall be able to separate us from the love of God” (Rom 8)
- “we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men…and made fools for Christ’s sake” (1 Cor 4:9-10)
- “Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?” (1 Cor 6:3)

Spewing arrogance and speaking great swelling words (Jude 1:16) There is no way Jude didn’t paint the perfect picture of Paul in his warning epistle. Both he and James AND Peter all speak and warn of Paul in language so precise their audience would have been left with no doubt to whom they were referring.

It
so you believe in voluntary humility (man made humility vs God humility) and in worshiping angels?

You believe that angels CAN separate us from the love of God?

You believe the Angels weren't watching hte Apostles as they suffered for His namesake?

What do you believe an angel is? We know according to Job 4:18 that God charges angels with error.


Jude: 5Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling— these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Paul: We will judge angels. Also Homosexuality is bad.

Pazooka: Slander!

Jude: God locked up a bunch of angels for judgement, just like Sodom and Gommorah, who indulged in sexual immorality- these slanderers defile bodies, reject authority (Christ's) and slander the glory of God (look at the word)

Pazooka: CLEARLY Jude is talking about Paul...

Regardless of my own philosophy regarding angels, it is clear that Jude is describing Paul’s infamous teachings, which do not involve the fallen angels you mention but, rather, “glorious” beings.

It is not clear. It is only what you want to see. Could there be an argument made for it.. Yes. Is it what is happening? Doubtful- more aligns with Paul and Jude than doesn't. Also glorious beings can be translated the glory of God or that which is good.

You know what would be clear? If they just said his name, but they don't. And if you don't like Paul, you make an assumption they are talking about him, because of a premise you ahve established in your heart and mind.

Yes, I think you’re right about it being part of the great scripture Rorschach test. Why don’t they say Paul’s name? Most likely because they were constrained due to the fact that Paul was a member of the Herodian family and a citizen of Rome and enjoyed privileges that the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not.

Here one comes to an even more startling detail provided by Josephus…the intermediary in the process of inviting the Roman army into the city was a member of the Herodian family called Saul. He is the one who delivered the message from ‘the peace coalition’ to the Roman army camped outside Jerusalem to enter, and a final report even to Nero’s headquarters, then in Corinth in Greece, a favorite haunt too of the religious activities of Paul. ~ Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 16

Paul betrays Jerusalem to the enemy.

You do not slander a figure like Paul…Roman elitist, Herodian insider that he was…easily or without consequences. But when they dropped the name Balaam, the people of the time knew exactly who they were talking about. And it’s not just Jude speaking this way about the person of Paul. It’s James and Peter and John.

[Pazooka]

Interesting analysis by Robert Eisenman about the fact that both Rabbinic Judaism and Pauline Christianity survive the period following the death of Jesus and His apostles:

…The Pharisees were not the popular party of their time and place, despite Josephus’ attempts - and those of Rabbinic Judaism thereafter - to prove otherwise. To clarify and highlight this, I have in my work generally redefined Pharisees as those ‘seeking accommodation with foreigners’. In the Scrolls, these appear as ‘the Seekers after Smooth Things’, clearly a hostile designation. In terms of political attitudes, Pauline Christians are not very different from Pharisees…

The Establishment groups, quite simply put, were the Pharisees, accommodationist Sadducees, and Herodians…Pauline Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism develop in conjunction with each other and both follow an accommodationist policy toward Rome, which is why no doubt both survived.

We talk about the woman who gave birth the man child who was taken up into heaven while the woman’s children escape into the wilderness to be nourished. Pauline Christianity did not ever leave the mainstream. It became firmly planted and enjoyed a long, illustriousness that has flourished until today. Who are the seed of the woman, the remnant few who escaped into the wilderness exactly because they would not accommodate the dragon’s political empire?

[John Tavner]

It
so you believe in voluntary humility (man made humility vs God humility) and in worshiping angels?

You believe that angels CAN separate us from the love of God?

You believe the Angels weren't watching hte Apostles as they suffered for His namesake?

What do you believe an angel is? We know according to Job 4:18 that God charges angels with error.


Jude: 5Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling— these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Paul: We will judge angels. Also Homosexuality is bad.

Pazooka: Slander!

Jude: God locked up a bunch of angels for judgement, just like Sodom and Gommorah, who indulged in sexual immorality- these slanderers defile bodies, reject authority (Christ's) and slander the glory of God (look at the word)

Pazooka: CLEARLY Jude is talking about Paul...

Regardless of my own philosophy regarding angels, it is clear that Jude is describing Paul’s infamous teachings, which do not involve the fallen angels you mention but, rather, “glorious” beings.

It is not clear. It is only what you want to see. Could there be an argument made for it.. Yes. Is it what is happening? Doubtful- more aligns with Paul and Jude than doesn't. Also glorious beings can be translated the glory of God or that which is good.

You know what would be clear? If they just said his name, but they don't. And if you don't like Paul, you make an assumption they are talking about him, because of a premise you ahve established in your heart and mind.

Yes, I think you’re right about it being part of the great scripture Rorschach test. Why don’t they say Paul’s name? Most likely because they were constrained due to the fact that Paul was a member of the Herodian family and a citizen of Rome and enjoyed privileges that the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not.

Here one comes to an even more startling detail provided by Josephus…the intermediary in the process of inviting the Roman army into the city was a member of the Herodian family called Saul. He is the one who delivered the message from ‘the peace coalition’ to the Roman army camped outside Jerusalem to enter, and a final report even to Nero’s headquarters, then in Corinth in Greece, a favorite haunt too of the religious activities of Paul. ~ Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 16

Paul betrays Jerusalem to the enemy.

You do not slander a figure like Paul…Roman elitist, Herodian insider that he was…easily or without consequences. But when they dropped the name Balaam, the people of the time knew exactly who they were talking about. And it’s not just Jude speaking this way about the person of Paul. It’s James and Peter and John.

Haha the guys who gave their life for their Lord, were afraid of making waves for fear of losing their own life. You mean they didn't overcome? LIke John spoke in revelations where they loved their own life, more than death? Interesting. Those who overcome love not their own life, even unto death. An interesting gospel you believe in.

Tell me, what is it you believe the gospel is? What is the good news? I mean, what is the purpose? What is your purpose in life? I'm happy to hear all three.

[Pazooka]

Regardless of my own philosophy regarding angels, it is clear that Jude is describing Paul’s infamous teachings, which do not involve the fallen angels you mention but, rather, “glorious” beings.

It is not clear. It is only what you want to see. Could there be an argument made for it.. Yes. Is it what is happening? Doubtful- more aligns with Paul and Jude than doesn't. Also glorious beings can be translated the glory of God or that which is good.

You know what would be clear? If they just said his name, but they don't. And if you don't like Paul, you make an assumption they are talking about him, because of a premise you ahve established in your heart and mind.

Yes, I think you’re right about it being part of the great scripture Rorschach test. Why don’t they say Paul’s name? Most likely because they were constrained due to the fact that Paul was a member of the Herodian family and a citizen of Rome and enjoyed privileges that the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not.

Here one comes to an even more startling detail provided by Josephus…the intermediary in the process of inviting the Roman army into the city was a member of the Herodian family called Saul. He is the one who delivered the message from ‘the peace coalition’ to the Roman army camped outside Jerusalem to enter, and a final report even to Nero’s headquarters, then in Corinth in Greece, a favorite haunt too of the religious activities of Paul. ~ Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 16

Paul betrays Jerusalem to the enemy.

You do not slander a figure like Paul…Roman elitist, Herodian insider that he was…easily or without consequences. But when they dropped the name Balaam, the people of the time knew exactly who they were talking about. And it’s not just Jude speaking this way about the person of Paul. It’s James and Peter and John.

Haha the guys who gave their life for their Lord, were afraid of making waves for fear of losing their own life. You mean they didn't overcome? LIke John spoke in revelations where they loved their own life, more than death? Interesting. Those who overcome love not their own life, even unto death. An interesting gospel you believe in.

Tell me, what is it you believe the gospel is? What is the good news? I mean, what is the purpose? What is your purpose in life? I'm happy to hear all three.

Our conventional assumption that Paul died by Nero's command rests only on sketchy and manifestly legendary material in 1 Clement (an anonymous digest of unknown date) and the Acts of Paul. We don't really know what may have happened to him.

Luke recorded many incredible stories about Paul’s adventures: shipwreck, snake bite, miraculous healing, etc. So you’d think he would have recorded the amazing story of his martyrdom for Christ if it had taken place.

Not loving one’s life so much as to shrink from death isn’t true merely because Paul happened to say it but because Jesus taught it and lived it.

The gospel good news is the truth that Jesus believed and lived - - not some made up religion *about* a figure called Christ by a fraud who actually contradicts the words of the everlasting covenant of peace that existed from the foundation of the earth.

My sole purpose in life is to seek God and to try and align myself with everything He says and wishes by throwing off every false tradition of men.

P.S. Nero was a madman. If he actually did have Paul beheaded (as was his Roman elitist privilege rather than crucifixion), it would have been no different from Nero having his own mother killed for serving something he didn’t like for dinner. BUT, we don’t have any evidence that Nero paid the slightest attention to Paul at all.

Writing around 95 CE, Clement of Rome ought to have known if Paul was executed in Rome, but appears to believe that Paul continued on with his stated intention (Romans 15:24, 28) of travelling to Spain and that he spent his remaining years preaching there (1 Clement 5:5–6):

By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith, having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.

[John Tavner]

It is not clear. It is only what you want to see. Could there be an argument made for it.. Yes. Is it what is happening? Doubtful- more aligns with Paul and Jude than doesn't. Also glorious beings can be translated the glory of God or that which is good.

You know what would be clear? If they just said his name, but they don't. And if you don't like Paul, you make an assumption they are talking about him, because of a premise you ahve established in your heart and mind.

Yes, I think you’re right about it being part of the great scripture Rorschach test. Why don’t they say Paul’s name? Most likely because they were constrained due to the fact that Paul was a member of the Herodian family and a citizen of Rome and enjoyed privileges that the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not.

Here one comes to an even more startling detail provided by Josephus…the intermediary in the process of inviting the Roman army into the city was a member of the Herodian family called Saul. He is the one who delivered the message from ‘the peace coalition’ to the Roman army camped outside Jerusalem to enter, and a final report even to Nero’s headquarters, then in Corinth in Greece, a favorite haunt too of the religious activities of Paul. ~ Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 16

Paul betrays Jerusalem to the enemy.

You do not slander a figure like Paul…Roman elitist, Herodian insider that he was…easily or without consequences. But when they dropped the name Balaam, the people of the time knew exactly who they were talking about. And it’s not just Jude speaking this way about the person of Paul. It’s James and Peter and John.

Haha the guys who gave their life for their Lord, were afraid of making waves for fear of losing their own life. You mean they didn't overcome? LIke John spoke in revelations where they loved their own life, more than death? Interesting. Those who overcome love not their own life, even unto death. An interesting gospel you believe in.

Tell me, what is it you believe the gospel is? What is the good news? I mean, what is the purpose? What is your purpose in life? I'm happy to hear all three.

Our conventional assumption that Paul died by Nero's command rests only on sketchy and manifestly legendary material in 1 Clement (an anonymous digest of unknown date) and the Acts of Paul. We don't really know what may have happened to him.

Luke recorded many incredible stories about Paul’s adventures: shipwreck, snake bite, miraculous healing, etc. So you’d think he would have recorded the amazing story of his martyrdom for Christ if it had taken place.

Not loving one’s life so much as to shrink from death isn’t true merely because Paul happened to say it but because Jesus taught it and lived it.

The gospel good news is the truth that Jesus believed and lived - - not some made up religion *about* a figure called Christ by a fraud who actually contradicts the words of the everlasting covenant of peace that existed from the foundation of the earth.

My sole purpose in life is to seek God and to try and align myself with everything He says and wishes by throwing off every false tradition of men.

P.S. Nero was a madman. If he actually did have Paul beheaded (as was his Roman elitist privilege rather than crucifixion), it would have been no different from Nero having his own mother killed for serving something he didn’t like for dinner.

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

[Pazooka]

Yes, I think you’re right about it being part of the great scripture Rorschach test. Why don’t they say Paul’s name? Most likely because they were constrained due to the fact that Paul was a member of the Herodian family and a citizen of Rome and enjoyed privileges that the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not.

Here one comes to an even more startling detail provided by Josephus…the intermediary in the process of inviting the Roman army into the city was a member of the Herodian family called Saul. He is the one who delivered the message from ‘the peace coalition’ to the Roman army camped outside Jerusalem to enter, and a final report even to Nero’s headquarters, then in Corinth in Greece, a favorite haunt too of the religious activities of Paul. ~ Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 16

Paul betrays Jerusalem to the enemy.

You do not slander a figure like Paul…Roman elitist, Herodian insider that he was…easily or without consequences. But when they dropped the name Balaam, the people of the time knew exactly who they were talking about. And it’s not just Jude speaking this way about the person of Paul. It’s James and Peter and John.

Haha the guys who gave their life for their Lord, were afraid of making waves for fear of losing their own life. You mean they didn't overcome? LIke John spoke in revelations where they loved their own life, more than death? Interesting. Those who overcome love not their own life, even unto death. An interesting gospel you believe in.

Tell me, what is it you believe the gospel is? What is the good news? I mean, what is the purpose? What is your purpose in life? I'm happy to hear all three.

Our conventional assumption that Paul died by Nero's command rests only on sketchy and manifestly legendary material in 1 Clement (an anonymous digest of unknown date) and the Acts of Paul. We don't really know what may have happened to him.

Luke recorded many incredible stories about Paul’s adventures: shipwreck, snake bite, miraculous healing, etc. So you’d think he would have recorded the amazing story of his martyrdom for Christ if it had taken place.

Not loving one’s life so much as to shrink from death isn’t true merely because Paul happened to say it but because Jesus taught it and lived it.

The gospel good news is the truth that Jesus believed and lived - - not some made up religion *about* a figure called Christ by a fraud who actually contradicts the words of the everlasting covenant of peace that existed from the foundation of the earth.

My sole purpose in life is to seek God and to try and align myself with everything He says and wishes by throwing off every false tradition of men.

P.S. Nero was a madman. If he actually did have Paul beheaded (as was his Roman elitist privilege rather than crucifixion), it would have been no different from Nero having his own mother killed for serving something he didn’t like for dinner.

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

[John Tavner]

Haha the guys who gave their life for their Lord, were afraid of making waves for fear of losing their own life. You mean they didn't overcome? LIke John spoke in revelations where they loved their own life, more than death? Interesting. Those who overcome love not their own life, even unto death. An interesting gospel you believe in.

Tell me, what is it you believe the gospel is? What is the good news? I mean, what is the purpose? What is your purpose in life? I'm happy to hear all three.

Our conventional assumption that Paul died by Nero's command rests only on sketchy and manifestly legendary material in 1 Clement (an anonymous digest of unknown date) and the Acts of Paul. We don't really know what may have happened to him.

Luke recorded many incredible stories about Paul’s adventures: shipwreck, snake bite, miraculous healing, etc. So you’d think he would have recorded the amazing story of his martyrdom for Christ if it had taken place.

Not loving one’s life so much as to shrink from death isn’t true merely because Paul happened to say it but because Jesus taught it and lived it.

The gospel good news is the truth that Jesus believed and lived - - not some made up religion *about* a figure called Christ by a fraud who actually contradicts the words of the everlasting covenant of peace that existed from the foundation of the earth.

My sole purpose in life is to seek God and to try and align myself with everything He says and wishes by throwing off every false tradition of men.

P.S. Nero was a madman. If he actually did have Paul beheaded (as was his Roman elitist privilege rather than crucifixion), it would have been no different from Nero having his own mother killed for serving something he didn’t like for dinner.

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

What is the good news that Jesus believed and lived?

It is necessary if it is unto the salvation of souls and the gospel isn't clear. IT would be really simple to call it out if you love them. there is no greater love as Jesus says, than laying down your life for your friends. Why would they not speak truth Especially when One is corrupting the church so young? Yet they are afraid - your words... no that is not God. A people who are supposed to be set apart, can't even set themselves apart? They can't declare that which is not true? John did it to a few who refused to receive him... Love not your own life even unto death. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

What is the everlasting covenant of peace according to you? And what do you believe that Paul teaches that is false- exactly?

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

[Pazooka]

Our conventional assumption that Paul died by Nero's command rests only on sketchy and manifestly legendary material in 1 Clement (an anonymous digest of unknown date) and the Acts of Paul. We don't really know what may have happened to him.

Luke recorded many incredible stories about Paul’s adventures: shipwreck, snake bite, miraculous healing, etc. So you’d think he would have recorded the amazing story of his martyrdom for Christ if it had taken place.

Not loving one’s life so much as to shrink from death isn’t true merely because Paul happened to say it but because Jesus taught it and lived it.

The gospel good news is the truth that Jesus believed and lived - - not some made up religion *about* a figure called Christ by a fraud who actually contradicts the words of the everlasting covenant of peace that existed from the foundation of the earth.

My sole purpose in life is to seek God and to try and align myself with everything He says and wishes by throwing off every false tradition of men.

P.S. Nero was a madman. If he actually did have Paul beheaded (as was his Roman elitist privilege rather than crucifixion), it would have been no different from Nero having his own mother killed for serving something he didn’t like for dinner.

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

What is the good news that Jesus believed and lived?

It is necessary if it is unto the salvation of souls and the gospel isn't clear. IT would be really simple to call it out if you love them. Especially when One is corrupting the church so young? Yet they are afraid - your words... no that is not God. A people who are supposed to be set apart, can't even set themselves apart? They can't declare that which is not true? John did it to a few who refused to receive him...

Some recommended reading about what Jesus believed and lived in a paper called “The Secret Tradition” by Margaret Barker: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Se ... dition.pdf

I’m afraid I didn’t understand the rest of your post.

[John Tavner]

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

What is the good news that Jesus believed and lived?

It is necessary if it is unto the salvation of souls and the gospel isn't clear. IT would be really simple to call it out if you love them. Especially when One is corrupting the church so young? Yet they are afraid - your words... no that is not God. A people who are supposed to be set apart, can't even set themselves apart? They can't declare that which is not true? John did it to a few who refused to receive him...

Some recommended reading about what Jesus believed and lived in a paper called “The Secret Tradition” by Margaret Barker: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Se ... dition.pdf

I’m afraid I didn’t understand the rest of your post.

I'm sure you can manage to tell me rather than making me read in some post. Can you not sum it up in a few sentences?

So do you agree with what Peter wrote?

IT is necessary to speak truth and call out lies especially when they were specifically told they were to be shepherds and to "feed His sheep and "feed His lambs"". that should help you understand the rest of my post- I added clarification after that. It would be one thing if thye were lay members, but no, they were "ones sent" of the Messiah to declare the gospel and the truth.

Do you believe in the Divinity of Christ? 2nd Peter 1? 1st Peter?

[Pazooka]

Our conventional assumption that Paul died by Nero's command rests only on sketchy and manifestly legendary material in 1 Clement (an anonymous digest of unknown date) and the Acts of Paul. We don't really know what may have happened to him.

Luke recorded many incredible stories about Paul’s adventures: shipwreck, snake bite, miraculous healing, etc. So you’d think he would have recorded the amazing story of his martyrdom for Christ if it had taken place.

Not loving one’s life so much as to shrink from death isn’t true merely because Paul happened to say it but because Jesus taught it and lived it.

The gospel good news is the truth that Jesus believed and lived - - not some made up religion *about* a figure called Christ by a fraud who actually contradicts the words of the everlasting covenant of peace that existed from the foundation of the earth.

My sole purpose in life is to seek God and to try and align myself with everything He says and wishes by throwing off every false tradition of men.

P.S. Nero was a madman. If he actually did have Paul beheaded (as was his Roman elitist privilege rather than crucifixion), it would have been no different from Nero having his own mother killed for serving something he didn’t like for dinner.

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

What is the good news that Jesus believed and lived?

It is necessary if it is unto the salvation of souls and the gospel isn't clear. IT would be really simple to call it out if you love them. there is no greater love as Jesus says, than laying down your life for your friends. Why would they not speak truth Especially when One is corrupting the church so young? Yet they are afraid - your words... no that is not God. A people who are supposed to be set apart, can't even set themselves apart? They can't declare that which is not true? John did it to a few who refused to receive him... Love not your own life even unto death. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

What is the everlasting covenant of peace according to you? And what do you believe that Paul teaches that is false- exactly?

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

The Hebrew word ‘covenant’ is berîth, which is closely linked to two other words: bārāʼ, meaning ‘create’ but a verb only used of divine actions; and bārāh, meaning ‘bind’. The covenant, then, was imagined as a web of bonds that held creation in place. ~ Margaret Barker

The problem I have with Paul is much like the problem I have with church leadership since the 20th century. Everything is called spiritual in a way that makes nothing actual. We are “spiritually” gathering Israel but not actually gathering Israel - - which means we aren’t enjoying the blessings of a gathered Israel.

Paul offers Roman subjects a form of worship that would not offend the overlords - - no nationalism, no literalism, no law that sets the holy apart from the profane.

Yes, I believe in the divinity of Jesus.

[John Tavner]

I never said Paul said it, but according to scripture he lived it. I said it was found in Revelations. John wrote revelations- as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did it as well. So if His Apostles can't even live up to what He preached they are pretty terrible apostles. P.S. All the other apostles died except John for their beliefs... they weren't afraid- hence my point, that for them to be "afraid" of calling out Paul for fear of dying is ridiculous. Jews are literally persecuting them for what they are teaching and they are like... yeah, but Paul... nah, he is too much... Come on, that is far-fetched.

Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my question, but what is your purpose in aligning with God? What do you think God wants you to be? Do you believe HE just wants you to do things for Him? What does a life aligned with God look like to you and no false traditions? What does a life aligned with God look like for you? What is the end goal for you? Is it just heaven?

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

What is the good news that Jesus believed and lived?

It is necessary if it is unto the salvation of souls and the gospel isn't clear. IT would be really simple to call it out if you love them. there is no greater love as Jesus says, than laying down your life for your friends. Why would they not speak truth Especially when One is corrupting the church so young? Yet they are afraid - your words... no that is not God. A people who are supposed to be set apart, can't even set themselves apart? They can't declare that which is not true? John did it to a few who refused to receive him... Love not your own life even unto death. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

What is the everlasting covenant of peace according to you? And what do you believe that Paul teaches that is false- exactly?

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

The Hebrew word ‘covenant’ is berîth, which is closely linked to two other words: bārāʼ, meaning ‘create’ but a verb only used of divine actions; and bārāh, meaning ‘bind’. The covenant, then, was imagined as a web of bonds that held creation in place. ~ Margaret Barker

The problem I have with Paul is much like the problem I have with church leadership since the 20th century. Everything is called spiritual in a way that makes nothing actual. We are “spiritually” gathering Israel but not actually gathering Israel - - which means we aren’t enjoying the blessings of a gathered Israel.

Paul offers Roman subjects a form of worship that would not offend the overlords - - no nationalism, no literalism, no law that sets the holy apart from the profane.

Yes, I believe in the divinity of Jesus.

So what does "holding creation in place" mean?

I don't think that is what Paul is teaching. Paul teaches about being set apart, which means to be Holy. It is living different in a world, but your difference isn't in what you eat, it is in how you treat others, it is in how you live and how you perceive others, how you perceive yourself- it is becoming that which Christ was. Your life lived shows you are set apart - the place from which you live, does it come from selfishness? or from love and selflessness?, that is what Paul teaches - to seek after Christ to become selfless through Grace, to love through grace, which is what Christ teaches too/ It isn't the food you eat or having your parts chopped off. Jesus repeatedly tells us it isn't what we do, but the purpose for which we are doing it that matters. Paul teaches we are made holy by Christ and to believe it, to not let the lie overtake the truth even if you mess up, to trust in Him and let Him continue to sanctify you. Paul teaches to not be a hypocrite (a play actor) one who acts holy, but isn't- but he tells us to seek Holiness and to embrace waht God is offering us. Jesus taught the same thing - that people were on the outside "whited sepulchers, but inside full of dead man's bones." As Jesus said "you think in the scriptures are found eternal life, but the scriptures testify of Me (Him), yet you refuse to come to me (Him) to have life." The rules are what gives life. It is Jesus Christ - He is the Way, the Truth, and hte Life.

The very fact that they don't believe in the gods offends the Romans. The very fact that people were leaving the faith of the ROmans and joining Christendom was offending the romans. The fact that He was stoned and beaten and imprisoned in almost every city shows how he offended people.

[Valo]

While I disagree with your "law" conclusion(which I provided multiple scriptures from the Book of Mormon to prove my point btw )........

I do agree with you about the Israelites standing up in this Promised Land


Have you done 23andMe or Ancestry ?

Did the BofM prophets think that the Ten Commandments were to be done away? Aren’t those the crux of the Mosaic law? What do you make of the prophecy of Malachi, specifically reference to the law given to Moses with its statutes and judgements?

Regrettably, I did Ancestry because it was a gift from my parents, years ago.

The law was given during the Sermon On The Mount.
The people of Christ will never again sacrifice animals, burn prayers, cut foreskin
Etc
The Book of Mormon plainly teaches this.
Lol you can say the BoM is wrong.....BUT you can't claim it doesn't say all these things

Anyway.....

What were your results?

My results were exactly what Family Search says (which you give Ancestry access to).

I’m mostly Scandinavian via Switzerland with some British Isles thrown in and even a teeny bit of Native American.

I am from Finland. I am not aware of Switzerland being a part of Scandinavia. Where did you learn this from?

...

[Valo]

It’s not fear to avoid doing something completely unnecessary and risky when there is a perfectly simple solution to avoid it. Why did the children of the woman flee into the wilderness? Was it because they were afraid of death? Or were they the “preservers” - which is one of the several meanings of Nazorean. There needs to be a remnant to preserve and guard the teachings - - this is one of the meanings of “keep my commandments.” It is a “double entendre.” Jesus instructed His disciples to do just that. Plus, the leaders of the Jerusalem church did not need to name drop because everyone knew who they were talking about. It’s, like, totally obvious.

Your last questions are delving into mysteries that I don’t talk about. They are part of my seeking after Wisdom which, once obtained - even only in part - are guarded. But the answers, even if I could give them, would be in pictures of archetypes and symbols because that’s the only way they can be communicated.

What is the good news that Jesus believed and lived?

It is necessary if it is unto the salvation of souls and the gospel isn't clear. IT would be really simple to call it out if you love them. there is no greater love as Jesus says, than laying down your life for your friends. Why would they not speak truth Especially when One is corrupting the church so young? Yet they are afraid - your words... no that is not God. A people who are supposed to be set apart, can't even set themselves apart? They can't declare that which is not true? John did it to a few who refused to receive him... Love not your own life even unto death. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

What is the everlasting covenant of peace according to you? And what do you believe that Paul teaches that is false- exactly?

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

The Hebrew word ‘covenant’ is berîth, which is closely linked to two other words: bārāʼ, meaning ‘create’ but a verb only used of divine actions; and bārāh, meaning ‘bind’. The covenant, then, was imagined as a web of bonds that held creation in place. ~ Margaret Barker

The problem I have with Paul is much like the problem I have with church leadership since the 20th century. Everything is called spiritual in a way that makes nothing actual. We are “spiritually” gathering Israel but not actually gathering Israel - - which means we aren’t enjoying the blessings of a gathered Israel.

Paul offers Roman subjects a form of worship that would not offend the overlords - - no nationalism, no literalism, no law that sets the holy apart from the profane.

Yes, I believe in the divinity of Jesus.

So what does "holding creation in place" mean?

I don't think that is what Paul is teaching. Paul teaches about being set apart, which means to be Holy. It is living different in a world, but your difference isn't in what you eat, it is in how you treat others, it is in how you live and how you perceive others, how you perceive yourself- it is becoming that which Christ was. Your life lived shows you are set apart - the place from which you live, does it come from selfishness? or from love and selflessness?, that is what Paul teaches - to seek after Christ to become selfless through Grace, to love through grace, which is what Christ teaches too/ It isn't the food you eat or having your parts chopped off. Jesus repeatedly tells us it isn't what we do, but the purpose for which we are doing it that matters. Paul teaches we are made holy by Christ and to believe it, to not let the lie overtake the truth even if you mess up, to trust in Him and let Him continue to sanctify you. Paul teaches to not be a hypocrite (a play actor) one who acts holy, but isn't- but he tells us to seek Holiness and to embrace waht God is offering us. Jesus taught the same thing - that people were on the outside "whited sepulchers, but inside full of dead man's bones." As Jesus said "you think in the scriptures are found eternal life, but the scriptures testify of Me (Him), yet you refuse to come to me (Him) to have life." The rules are what gives life. It is Jesus Christ - He is the Way, the Truth, and hte Life.

The very fact that they don't believe in the gods offends the Romans. The very fact that people were leaving the faith of the ROmans and joining Christendom was offending the romans. The fact that He was stoned and beaten and imprisoned in almost every city shows how he offended people.

Pillars are used to hold things in place. What happens when all the Pillars begin to fall

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