Paul the False Apostle

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harakim
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by harakim »

Pazooka wrote: December 28th, 2022, 1:14 pm This is a new concept for me. During my study of the book of Revelation, the idea was brought up that early Christians viewed Paul as the Balaam of their time.

The more I look into it the more suspect Paul appears. It has me rethinking a few things. Peter vs Paul.

The New Testament is not cut and dry. It was heavily edited. What about allusions to Paul’s ministry in the D&C? What, truly, is the rod of iron?
...
https://www.judaismvschristianity.com/c ... e-apostle/
It's interesting to think about this question, but it was 2000 years ago and to know if you can rely on this man Paul, you will have to rely on other men. And in order to accept those men are reliable you not only have to believe they themselves are discerning correctly, but so have every man who has preserved or translated Paul's words along the way.

If only there were a better way.
John 10 wrote: 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. You can find truth anywhere.

A believer can teach you truths about spiritual things
A nonbeliever can teach you truths about interacting with others
A murderer can teach you truths about surviving
The devil often shares a truth with his lies


I am not suggesting you go to the devil for advice, but if you hear the truth, you can hear it anywhere. What do you know to be true? What are you pretty sure about? Start there. Then you can perhaps find out if Paul was a true apostle or not. However, you'll likely find out that it doesn't matter. The Holy Ghost is the real teacher and can use whatever experiences and words you can bring to your awareness.

There is a better way.
Matthew 11 wrote: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
If you find yourself in a bit of distress about what is truth, take a minute to return to peace. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. All of the intellectual stuff is interesting and gives you material for the Spirit to work with. However, you don't need to figure out what is true logically. You can leave the discerning to the Master.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

FrankOne wrote: January 19th, 2023, 5:44 pm Much later, a revival of this occurred in the Catholic Church (circa 1500-1650ad). . It was known as "the Alumbrados". This group was teaching that God could be known directly and that unification was possible in this mortal life. They faced inquisition and convicted of heresy (3 times). It seems that this same thread continues today in the LDS church. The truth is always hated by organizations of men. Freedom is the enemy to the corporate body. Gotta kill or minimize anyone that claims to receive revelation...right? da pope = da profit

I've read some of the writings of the Alumbrados and find them to be fascinating. The practice became known as 'Quietism'


snippets:

"The Alumbrados held that the human soul can reach such a degree of perfection that it can even in the present life contemplate the essence of God and comprehend the mystery of the Trinity"

"The Alumbrados came primarily from among the reformed Franciscans and the Jesuits, but their doctrines seem to have influenced all classes of people. The extravagant claims made for their visions and revelations caused them to be relentlessly persecuted. The Inquisition issued edicts against them on three occasions (1568, 1574, and 1623).
I came to the conclusion some years ago that the modern heirs to Gnosticism may not be the likes of the Quakers as one might expect, or even some occultists, but the Pentecostals. I think Pentecostalism can have a Gnostic aspect to it without most of them being aware of it. They will even say that they wish to "know God" and overcome the world etc in such words without making the Gnostic connection.

Pentecostals are also strong on the notion of opposition from evil ("strong men", the spirits that bind a city) and so on, so have an aspect of dualism.

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John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

FrankOne wrote: January 19th, 2023, 1:52 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 1:28 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:08 am
Pazooka wrote: January 18th, 2023, 10:24 pm

So Epiphanius, the defender of orthodoxy, is an acceptable source for you? Should I accept you as having a valid opinion, given that you don’t believe the majority of LDS scripture? Why should you have a say in this thread?
Epiphanius was telling us what Ebionites believed and calling them heretics... and Ebionites did not believe in the divinity of Christ - they only really believed in the gospel of Matthew, removing any show of divinity from Christ. It was not Epiphanius' testimony that Paul was who you think he is. Your research is sloppy. Do better research - it would be one thing if you presented both sides of the argument, but you focus so much of your disdain for Paul that you would accept Stalin, Mao, and Hitler as character witnesses in exchange for how you would believe that they didn't commit mass genocide all for a "testimony" for how Paul was terrible. (Yes, I'm being hyperbolic)
Not true. But there is such a thing as apologetic bias.

I really want to know what happened.
on this point ^ i totally agree.

history can be 'proven' to mean anything a researcher wants it to mean. such as anthropology; it the most bias science of all if it even can be called a science.

#1 - there is no way we can trust the original source itself due to the bias of the individual. That individual is going to skew the facts to his own perception of how it 'SHOULD' be. You've made a great case of Paul being an overzealous rebel. No doubt that he was compromised by bias.

#2- there is no way to determine if the original greek and hebrew copies we use of the bible are accurate. The hebrew narrative was passed on mouth to ear for at least a few hundred YEARS before being put to pen.

#3 - the books we now have in the cannon is 66. there were at least 1500 scrolls to choose from when the roman emporer, constantine called the counsel of Nice to determine the doctrine of a STATE controlled religion. I wonder if there was any bias in choosing those 66? laughable subject really.

conclusion. As far as facts, we know almost nothing.
I would suggest you research your #2 view, in regards to the new testament I think you'll find it isn't as true as you think it is- less than 100 years.... less than 50 in many cases

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TheChristian
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Posts: 708

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by TheChristian »

Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:17 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 6:17 pm
TheChristian wrote: January 19th, 2023, 3:28 pm The Apostles that walked daily with the Saviour were for the most part poor men, whoms only wealth was their faith, unlearned men, Gallilean peasants and fishermen.
So they would of been unlikely to have written much if anything at all by their own hand.. Our Lord told them that what He had taught them the Holy Ghost would bring to their rememberance and lead them into all truth after He ascended into Heaven.
And this would be the way that all the Lords disciples from that day onwards would remember the sayings and teachings of Jesus, by the Holy Ghost.
And so not too much needed to be written down as was the case of the Law of Moses, for the Israelites under said Mosiac Law did not have the promised Holy ghost to bring all things to their rememberance.
Paul rightly taught the Gospel, the way of the Spirit, which liberates mankind, leading them by the indwelling Spirit of God.
Hence being led by said Spirit, there is no need for a list of does and donts, endless writings.
For we now live in the age of the dispensation of the promised Holy Spirit were Gods laws are no longer written apon stone or paper but are penned and engraven apon mens hearts and minds by the Spirit of the living God!
We live in a day were men can have a direct relationship with God Himself, were it is between God and the individual. No mortal man, nor angel from on high stand in between them. For Christ is the Father to whom all must come unto and Christ is the Son of whom all must have faith in, so that he can reveal Himself as the Father they must worship in Spirit and in truth.

As the Scripture says....
"In the last days the Lord will pour out His Spirit apon all flesh"

And ...
"For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord.
I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Where do we get the teaching that the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit? Is that Pauline Christianity?
If aporroia is a word for the Holy Spirit in relation to God, it also suggests other scriptural descriptions of the Spirit that speak of the Spirit’s relation to humanity. There is a conceptual continuity between the Trinitarian word aporroia and other soteriological descriptions of the Spirit: this continuity turns upon the common type of imagery used for the Holy Spirit, namely fluidity. The use of fluid – water – imagery for the Spirit is ubiquitous in the Old Testament...

Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations any more; and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the
Lord GOD. Ez. 39:28-29
...

Some recent scholars, notably Menzes, have documented the elimination of previous references to the Spirit of God in texts edited or translated during the late Second Temple period of Judaism. It is the judgment of such scholars that in late Second Temple Judaism the action of the divine spirit is understood by Jews to be principally that of indwelling and prophecy.
https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/spiritus.pdf

The author of the above article refers constantly to “Paul’s pneumatology” (ie Paul’s ideas about the Spirit) - maybe because it was just that...his own creation.

Edit to add: BUT...I will read the whole article to see what this person has found out about how Paul’s pneumatology relates to Old Testament and other pneumatologies...lest I be hasty.
I’m looking for the basis of the idea that the followers of the original covenant in the Old Testament times did not enjoy an indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can only find things like this from...Paul’s teachings:

Just going to put this here also, from the BofM and the year 550 b.c.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.~ 2 Nephi 31:13

Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, he should come to Me and drink! The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.” He said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been received, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Holy Ghost will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

The promised Holy Ghost was not to be given until the Saviour was glorified and had ascended back to heaven, the disciples were to await for that promised last days outpouring of the Holy Ghost that was spoken of by the Prophet Joel which occured apon the day of Pentecost.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to the crowds that had gathered,, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

My final words are these, have any here whom dispute against Paul and Peter had a pentecostal experience of the spirit falling apon them like fire, were they spoke in the gift of tongues and prophesied, when is the last time in your gatherings or meetings has there been such an outpouring of the Spirit of God like unto the day of Pentecost were you spoke and praised God in the gift of tongues and prophesied being filled with the glory, power and fire of the Holy ghost?

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Pazooka
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Location: FEMA District 8

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Pazooka »

TheChristian wrote: January 20th, 2023, 11:35 am
Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:17 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 6:17 pm
TheChristian wrote: January 19th, 2023, 3:28 pm The Apostles that walked daily with the Saviour were for the most part poor men, whoms only wealth was their faith, unlearned men, Gallilean peasants and fishermen.
So they would of been unlikely to have written much if anything at all by their own hand.. Our Lord told them that what He had taught them the Holy Ghost would bring to their rememberance and lead them into all truth after He ascended into Heaven.
And this would be the way that all the Lords disciples from that day onwards would remember the sayings and teachings of Jesus, by the Holy Ghost.
And so not too much needed to be written down as was the case of the Law of Moses, for the Israelites under said Mosiac Law did not have the promised Holy ghost to bring all things to their rememberance.
Paul rightly taught the Gospel, the way of the Spirit, which liberates mankind, leading them by the indwelling Spirit of God.
Hence being led by said Spirit, there is no need for a list of does and donts, endless writings.
For we now live in the age of the dispensation of the promised Holy Spirit were Gods laws are no longer written apon stone or paper but are penned and engraven apon mens hearts and minds by the Spirit of the living God!
We live in a day were men can have a direct relationship with God Himself, were it is between God and the individual. No mortal man, nor angel from on high stand in between them. For Christ is the Father to whom all must come unto and Christ is the Son of whom all must have faith in, so that he can reveal Himself as the Father they must worship in Spirit and in truth.

As the Scripture says....
"In the last days the Lord will pour out His Spirit apon all flesh"

And ...
"For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord.
I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Where do we get the teaching that the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit? Is that Pauline Christianity?
If aporroia is a word for the Holy Spirit in relation to God, it also suggests other scriptural descriptions of the Spirit that speak of the Spirit’s relation to humanity. There is a conceptual continuity between the Trinitarian word aporroia and other soteriological descriptions of the Spirit: this continuity turns upon the common type of imagery used for the Holy Spirit, namely fluidity. The use of fluid – water – imagery for the Spirit is ubiquitous in the Old Testament...

Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations any more; and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the
Lord GOD. Ez. 39:28-29
...

Some recent scholars, notably Menzes, have documented the elimination of previous references to the Spirit of God in texts edited or translated during the late Second Temple period of Judaism. It is the judgment of such scholars that in late Second Temple Judaism the action of the divine spirit is understood by Jews to be principally that of indwelling and prophecy.
https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/spiritus.pdf

The author of the above article refers constantly to “Paul’s pneumatology” (ie Paul’s ideas about the Spirit) - maybe because it was just that...his own creation.

Edit to add: BUT...I will read the whole article to see what this person has found out about how Paul’s pneumatology relates to Old Testament and other pneumatologies...lest I be hasty.
I’m looking for the basis of the idea that the followers of the original covenant in the Old Testament times did not enjoy an indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can only find things like this from...Paul’s teachings:

Just going to put this here also, from the BofM and the year 550 b.c.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.~ 2 Nephi 31:13

Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, he should come to Me and drink! The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.” He said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been received, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Holy Ghost will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

The promised Holy Ghost was not to be given until the Saviour was glorified and had ascended back to heaven, the disciples were to await for that promised last days outpouring of the Holy Ghost that was spoken of by the Prophet Joel which occured apon the day of Pentecost.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to the crowds that had gathered,, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

My final words are these, have any here whom dispute against Paul and Peter had a pentecostal experience of the spirit falling apon them like fire, were they spoke in the gift of tongues and prophesied, when is the last time in your gatherings or meetings has there been such an outpouring of the Spirit of God like unto the day of Pentecost were you spoke and praised God in the gift of tongues and prophesied being filled with the glory, power and fire of the Holy ghost?
What does it say about your ideology that you automatically assume others can’t have had a Pentecostal experience? Likewise, what does it say that you assume that thousands of years worth of humanity did not have access to the Holy Spirit? The Old Testament, the Book of Mormon both suggest otherwise. The promise of the HG by Jesus would have only applied to the people at that time for reasons we can easily deduce.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Posts: 664

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

This thread has been mind-blowing for me, I *love* that something so radical I never even thought of it before appeared here on the forums.

I have a bias that I like Paul a lot (or his philosophy) so I don't want him to turn out to be a false apostle. But that's no real defense; I'm sure that Korihor had a lot of people who wanted his philosophy to be right too.

If Paul is a false apostle, it really would upend pretty much the entirety of Christendom, wouldn't it? I googled but couldn't find one single denomination of modern Christianity that doesn't revere the teachings of Paul.

I'm bothered by the evidence against Paul (though I'm not convinced of it, there are some points made) whereas the defense of Paul mostly seems to boil down to, "but I like him though, I can't be wrong" (which is a recipe for confirmation bias).

I find this whole discussion fascinating, and I just wanted to thank the op for bringing it up. I also found this site:

https://makepeacewithjesus.org/was-paul-a-false-apostle

Where the author attempts to debunk criticisms of Paul being a false apostle. I think he does a mostly decent job, but he also debunks a lot of straw men that nobody was every complaining about in the first place, and several of the evidences raised in this thread against Paul aren't addressed...

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TheChristian
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Posts: 708

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by TheChristian »

Pazooka wrote: January 20th, 2023, 3:31 pm
TheChristian wrote: January 20th, 2023, 11:35 am
Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:17 pm
Pazooka wrote: January 19th, 2023, 6:17 pm

Where do we get the teaching that the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit? Is that Pauline Christianity?



https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/spiritus.pdf

The author of the above article refers constantly to “Paul’s pneumatology” (ie Paul’s ideas about the Spirit) - maybe because it was just that...his own creation.

Edit to add: BUT...I will read the whole article to see what this person has found out about how Paul’s pneumatology relates to Old Testament and other pneumatologies...lest I be hasty.
I’m looking for the basis of the idea that the followers of the original covenant in the Old Testament times did not enjoy an indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can only find things like this from...Paul’s teachings:

Just going to put this here also, from the BofM and the year 550 b.c.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.~ 2 Nephi 31:13

Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, he should come to Me and drink! The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.” He said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been received, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Holy Ghost will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

The promised Holy Ghost was not to be given until the Saviour was glorified and had ascended back to heaven, the disciples were to await for that promised last days outpouring of the Holy Ghost that was spoken of by the Prophet Joel which occured apon the day of Pentecost.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to the crowds that had gathered,, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

My final words are these, have any here whom dispute against Paul and Peter had a pentecostal experience of the spirit falling apon them like fire, were they spoke in the gift of tongues and prophesied, when is the last time in your gatherings or meetings has there been such an outpouring of the Spirit of God like unto the day of Pentecost were you spoke and praised God in the gift of tongues and prophesied being filled with the glory, power and fire of the Holy ghost?
What does it say about your ideology that you automatically assume others can’t have had a Pentecostal experience? Likewise, what does it say that you assume that thousands of years worth of humanity did not have access to the Holy Spirit? The Old Testament, the Book of Mormon both suggest otherwise. The promise of the HG by Jesus would have only applied to the people at that time for reasons we can easily deduce.

We must not strive with the New testament.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.

And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Religious men and women have a choice, we can follow a dead religion or a living faith in Jesus of Nazerath.
Paul was given a living faith on the road to Damacus, I was given mine in a filthy prison cell.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 20th, 2023, 5:25 pm This thread has been mind-blowing for me, I *love* that something so radical I never even thought of it before appeared here on the forums.

I have a bias that I like Paul a lot (or his philosophy) so I don't want him to turn out to be a false apostle. But that's no real defense; I'm sure that Korihor had a lot of people who wanted his philosophy to be right too.

If Paul is a false apostle, it really would upend pretty much the entirety of Christendom, wouldn't it? I googled but couldn't find one single denomination of modern Christianity that doesn't revere the teachings of Paul.

I'm bothered by the evidence against Paul (though I'm not convinced of it, there are some points made) whereas the defense of Paul mostly seems to boil down to, "but I like him though, I can't be wrong" (which is a recipe for confirmation bias).

I find this whole discussion fascinating, and I just wanted to thank the op for bringing it up. I also found this site:

https://makepeacewithjesus.org/was-paul-a-false-apostle

Where the author attempts to debunk criticisms of Paul being a false apostle. I think he does a mostly decent job, but he also debunks a lot of straw men that nobody was every complaining about in the first place, and several of the evidences raised in this thread against Paul aren't addressed...
The big question is why Paul gets so much space in the New Testament. If some people had their way the Book of Revelation would not have made it into the NT (it was hotly debated) and then Paul would have a monopoly over an even bigger proportion of the New Testament. Thankfully Revelation did get in and there is evidence that Revelation contains true prophecy.

I don't know if Paul is so much a "false apostle", but he may well be one who has been given far too much emphasis. We also ask why James, Thomas and Peter never received the same level of coverage. Especially Peter given his later prominence in the Roman church.

onefour1
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Posts: 1596

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by onefour1 »

Upon reading many of the posts in this thread, my testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God comes forth to offer my conclusion. Going back to the verse in D&C 18

Doctrine and Covenants 18:9
9 And now, Oliver Cowdery, I speak unto you, and also unto David Whitmer, by the way of commandment; for, behold, I command all men everywhere to repent, and I speak unto you, even as unto Paul mine apostle, for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called.

In this verse, it is not Joseph Smith who is speaking but the Lord Jesus Christ himself. D&C 18 ends with this verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 18:47
47 Behold, I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, and your Redeemer, by the power of my Spirit have spoken it. Amen.

So, unless you believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet and made up this revelation by lying about what Jesus said, then you must believe that they are the words of Jesus Christ. If so then you must believe that it is the Lord who is saying, "Paul mine apostle". Otherwise Joseph Smith is a false prophet who made up revelations to deceive his followers. To me, by the spirit of the Holy Ghost, it has been confirmed to me that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that the revelations given to him by Jesus Christ are true. This means that Paul was one of his apostles and that there is no question in my mind. So I would suggest that if you also have the same testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then you must believe that Jesus revealed it personally to him that Paul was truly one of his chosen apostles.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

onefour1 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:21 am This means that Paul was one of his apostles and that there is no question in my mind. So I would suggest that if you also have the same testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then you must believe that Jesus revealed it personally to him that Paul was truly one of his chosen apostles.
Paul may well have been, but that still begs the question of why he hogs so much of the New Testament and there are still questions about his background.

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John Tavner
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 3:42 am
onefour1 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:21 am This means that Paul was one of his apostles and that there is no question in my mind. So I would suggest that if you also have the same testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then you must believe that Jesus revealed it personally to him that Paul was truly one of his chosen apostles.
Paul may well have been, but that still begs the question of why he hogs so much of the New Testament and there are still questions about his background.
I don't think "hog" is the right word or question. It makes it seem as if Paul made the choice. The Jews on the other hand, were wrecked by the Romans for their rebellion- likely losing a lot of the works of the other Apostles.

Paul encompasses a good portion of the New Testament likely because he wrote to people who kept decent care of the letters and papers they received and he traveled over much of the Roman world. The churches passed them around between one another (again showing the respect they had for Paul) The earliest know "compilation" includees the majority of Paul's letters. Being a part of hte Roman empire it isn't surprising people traveled between locations freely allowing them to copy and recopy letters and spreading what he shared. I think something we've lost in society is the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" Too often we view everyone as guilty first and then they msut prove their innocence. It's why in the US the founders realized if a person must prove their innocence they will be found guilty almost all of the time because the burden is on the innocent to prove innocence vs the state to prove guilt.

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Niemand
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:55 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 3:42 am
onefour1 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:21 am This means that Paul was one of his apostles and that there is no question in my mind. So I would suggest that if you also have the same testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then you must believe that Jesus revealed it personally to him that Paul was truly one of his chosen apostles.
Paul may well have been, but that still begs the question of why he hogs so much of the New Testament and there are still questions about his background.
I don't think "hog" is the right word or question. It makes it seem as if Paul made the choice. The Jews on the other hand, were wrecked by the Romans for their rebellion- likely losing a lot of the works of the other Apostles.

Paul encompasses a good portion of the New Testament likely because he wrote to people who kept decent care of the letters and papers they received and he traveled over much of the Roman world. The churches passed them around between one another (again showing the respect they had for Paul) The earliest know "compilation" includees the majority of Paul's letters. Being a part of hte Roman empire it isn't surprising people traveled between locations freely allowing them to copy and recopy letters and spreading what he shared. I think something we've lost in society is the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" Too often we view everyone as guilty first and then they msut prove their innocence. It's why in the US the founders realized if a person must prove their innocence they will be found guilty almost all of the time because the burden is on the innocent to prove innocence vs the state to prove guilt.
It is clear that he does dominate the New Testament by authorship. We can add the Book of Acts to his books because it is heavily centred around him.
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Pazooka
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Pazooka »

onefour1 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:21 am Upon reading many of the posts in this thread, my testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God comes forth to offer my conclusion. Going back to the verse in D&C 18

Doctrine and Covenants 18:9
9 And now, Oliver Cowdery, I speak unto you, and also unto David Whitmer, by the way of commandment; for, behold, I command all men everywhere to repent, and I speak unto you, even as unto Paul mine apostle, for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called.

In this verse, it is not Joseph Smith who is speaking but the Lord Jesus Christ himself. D&C 18 ends with this verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 18:47
47 Behold, I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, and your Redeemer, by the power of my Spirit have spoken it. Amen.

So, unless you believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet and made up this revelation by lying about what Jesus said, then you must believe that they are the words of Jesus Christ. If so then you must believe that it is the Lord who is saying, "Paul mine apostle". Otherwise Joseph Smith is a false prophet who made up revelations to deceive his followers. To me, by the spirit of the Holy Ghost, it has been confirmed to me that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that the revelations given to him by Jesus Christ are true. This means that Paul was one of his apostles and that there is no question in my mind. So I would suggest that if you also have the same testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then you must believe that Jesus revealed it personally to him that Paul was truly one of his chosen apostles.
Ironically enough, that attitude goes against everything Joseph Smith stood for.

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John Tavner
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:25 am
John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:55 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 3:42 am
onefour1 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 2:21 am This means that Paul was one of his apostles and that there is no question in my mind. So I would suggest that if you also have the same testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then you must believe that Jesus revealed it personally to him that Paul was truly one of his chosen apostles.
Paul may well have been, but that still begs the question of why he hogs so much of the New Testament and there are still questions about his background.
I don't think "hog" is the right word or question. It makes it seem as if Paul made the choice. The Jews on the other hand, were wrecked by the Romans for their rebellion- likely losing a lot of the works of the other Apostles.

Paul encompasses a good portion of the New Testament likely because he wrote to people who kept decent care of the letters and papers they received and he traveled over much of the Roman world. The churches passed them around between one another (again showing the respect they had for Paul) The earliest know "compilation" includees the majority of Paul's letters. Being a part of hte Roman empire it isn't surprising people traveled between locations freely allowing them to copy and recopy letters and spreading what he shared. I think something we've lost in society is the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" Too often we view everyone as guilty first and then they msut prove their innocence. It's why in the US the founders realized if a person must prove their innocence they will be found guilty almost all of the time because the burden is on the innocent to prove innocence vs the state to prove guilt.
It is clear that he does dominate the New Testament by authorship. We can add the Book of Acts to his books because it is heavily centred around him.
Image
I'm not sure you understood what I was saying.... and acts was written by Luke as per your diagram.

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Niemand
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:01 pm
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:25 am
John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:55 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 3:42 am

Paul may well have been, but that still begs the question of why he hogs so much of the New Testament and there are still questions about his background.
I don't think "hog" is the right word or question. It makes it seem as if Paul made the choice. The Jews on the other hand, were wrecked by the Romans for their rebellion- likely losing a lot of the works of the other Apostles.

Paul encompasses a good portion of the New Testament likely because he wrote to people who kept decent care of the letters and papers they received and he traveled over much of the Roman world. The churches passed them around between one another (again showing the respect they had for Paul) The earliest know "compilation" includees the majority of Paul's letters. Being a part of hte Roman empire it isn't surprising people traveled between locations freely allowing them to copy and recopy letters and spreading what he shared. I think something we've lost in society is the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" Too often we view everyone as guilty first and then they msut prove their innocence. It's why in the US the founders realized if a person must prove their innocence they will be found guilty almost all of the time because the burden is on the innocent to prove innocence vs the state to prove guilt.
It is clear that he does dominate the New Testament by authorship. We can add the Book of Acts to his books because it is heavily centred around him.
Image
I'm not sure you understood what I was saying.... and acts was written by Luke as per your diagram.
Much of the Acts of the Apostles is either about Paul or from the Pauline point of view.

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John Tavner
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 1:33 pm
John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:01 pm
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:25 am
John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:55 am

I don't think "hog" is the right word or question. It makes it seem as if Paul made the choice. The Jews on the other hand, were wrecked by the Romans for their rebellion- likely losing a lot of the works of the other Apostles.

Paul encompasses a good portion of the New Testament likely because he wrote to people who kept decent care of the letters and papers they received and he traveled over much of the Roman world. The churches passed them around between one another (again showing the respect they had for Paul) The earliest know "compilation" includees the majority of Paul's letters. Being a part of hte Roman empire it isn't surprising people traveled between locations freely allowing them to copy and recopy letters and spreading what he shared. I think something we've lost in society is the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" Too often we view everyone as guilty first and then they msut prove their innocence. It's why in the US the founders realized if a person must prove their innocence they will be found guilty almost all of the time because the burden is on the innocent to prove innocence vs the state to prove guilt.
It is clear that he does dominate the New Testament by authorship. We can add the Book of Acts to his books because it is heavily centred around him.
Image
I'm not sure you understood what I was saying.... and acts was written by Luke as per your diagram.
Much of the Acts of the Apostles is either about Paul or from the Pauline point of view.
Not really arguing against that. it was written by Luke. Who wrote a gospel. If you want or feel to cast aspersion on Acts and consider it "Paulian" then you should look at Luke the same way.

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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From James Tabor who genuinely likes Paul but is aware and honest enough to recognize that he twisted Hebrew scripture to create “saved by faith” Christianity. He also explains how Paul’s portrayal of followers of the Law is a caricature.
He walks you through grace in the Old Testament…mercy, loving kindness and faith, showing that they were equally pertinent then as now.
He also gives an example of how Paul demonstrates his departure from the kindness and respect toward animals for which the Torah is noted.

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Niemand
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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by Niemand »

John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 4:12 pm Not really arguing against that. it was written by Luke. Who wrote a gospel. If you want or feel to cast aspersion on Acts and consider it "Paulian" then you should look at Luke the same way.
I can see where you're coming from but none of the gospels themselves refer to Paul or his followers specifically... including Luke, so I don't see that as so much of a problem. "Acts" though, is very much from the Pauline perspective.

We could add another - Hebrews, although it is debatable whether Paul wrote it.

So we have a number of Paul's letters, a letter he may have written and a book giving Paul's biography and the perspective of his movement. That's a lot of Paul.

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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There is a debate between Peter and Paul (under the alias Simon Magus) recorded from the standpoint of James the Just, in the Psuedo Clementine. I will look up the original, but here is synopsis:
The author of this novel presents a Peter who emphasizes the need to follow the Jewish law and opposes another figure, his “enemy”, who does not (often called Simon the Samaritan or Magician [Magus] but sometimes clearly a cipher for Paul) . In the supposed letter from Peter to James that prefaces the novel, Peter complains that some “from among the Gentiles have rejected my lawful preaching and have preferred a lawless and absurd doctrine of the man who is my enemy. And indeed some have attempted, while I am still alive, to distort my words by interpretations of many sorts, as if I taught the dissolution of the law and, although I was of this opinion, did not express it openly. But that may God forbid! For to do such a thing means to act contrary to the law of God which was made known by Moses and was confirmed by our Lord in its everlasting continuance. For he said: ‘The heaven and earth will pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall not pass away from the law'”(Epistula Petri 2:2-5; trans. by Strecker in Schneemelcher; cf. Matthew 24:35).

Clearly, the Pseudo-Clementine literature attests to a form of Jewish Christianity (sometimes labelled “Ebionite”) which continued to practice the Jewish law and to oppose those it considered to be neglecting the law, namely the heirs of Paul and a Gentile brand of Christianity (including Marcion). There also seems to be a reference here to some portrayals of Peter which tried to lessen any conflict with Paul by presenting Peter as though he did not require obedience to the law (see, for example, the Acts of the Apostles’ portrayal of a Paul and Peter, whose speeches on inclusion of Gentiles sound very much alike). Later in the Pseudo-Clementine stories of Clement’s journey to Judea and conversion there is a disputation which takes place between Peter and one Simon Magus (the Samaritan), Peter’s “enemy”, which again sometimes clearly serves as a cipher for a “lawless” Paul who had a supposed vision of Jesus (esp. H II 16-17; H XVII 13-19). Paul’s relaxing (for Gentiles) of certain aspects of the Jewish law (including circumcision and food laws) in order to include Gentiles in the Jesus movement was the focus of controversy in Paul’s lifetime (read Galatians) and, long after, continued to arouse the response or anger of some Jewish Christians who felt themselves in continuity with Jewish figures such as Peter.

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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If we theorize that there is indeed a great conflict between Peter and Paul, and that we are held accountable to still be under the law (of Moses or some other law), yet we in present know nothing about it, nor can we even define what constitutes law, how can a Just god judge us for breaking it? Surely it's incumbent upon a god who holds the characteristics of justice to at least inform us of what the law is that we are supposed to be living under, right?

I would speculate the single greatest argument against it is 3 Nephi where Christ spells out his doctrine succinctly, which doesn't seem to include any other law in order to attain salvation.

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:50 am If we theorize that there is indeed a great conflict between Peter and Paul, and that we are held accountable to still be under the law (of Moses or some other law), yet we in present know nothing about it, nor can we even define what constitutes law, how can a Just god judge us for breaking it? Surely it's incumbent upon a god who holds the characteristics of justice to at least inform us of what the law is that we are supposed to be living under, right?

I would speculate the single greatest argument against it is 3 Nephi where Christ spells out his doctrine succinctly, which doesn't seem to include any other law in order to attain salvation.
God put Israel into relationship with Him *before* He gave them the Law, when He rescued them from Egypt. The Law was God’s requirements for His people.

My understanding at this point is that Jesus honored those requirements. Peter’s defense of those requirements was a tribute to the fact that Jesus had not informed him otherwise.

The words of a prophet to a people in a similar situation to us:

1The Spirit of God came on Azariah son of Oded. 2He went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. 3For a long time Israel was without the true God, without a priest to teach and without the law. 4But in their distress they turned to the Lord, the God of Israel, and sought him, and he was found by them. 5In those days it was not safe to travel about, for all the inhabitants of the lands were in great turmoil. 6One nation was being crushed by another and one city by another, because God was troubling them with every kind of distress. 7But as for you, be strong and do not give up, for your work will be rewarded.” ~ 2 Chronicles 15

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

Post by John Tavner »

Niemand wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 3:22 am
John Tavner wrote: January 21st, 2023, 4:12 pm Not really arguing against that. it was written by Luke. Who wrote a gospel. If you want or feel to cast aspersion on Acts and consider it "Paulian" then you should look at Luke the same way.
I can see where you're coming from but none of the gospels themselves refer to Paul or his followers specifically... including Luke, so I don't see that as so much of a problem. "Acts" though, is very much from the Pauline perspective.

We could add another - Hebrews, although it is debatable whether Paul wrote it.

So we have a number of Paul's letters, a letter he may have written and a book giving Paul's biography and the perspective of his movement. That's a lot of Paul.
What does it matter if there is a lot of Paul's letters? Which within 60 years of his death, it was pretty commonly passed around -most of his writings for years- If you believe Joseph Smith, I hope you look at what he said the same way perhaps even less so because there weren't 12 other apostles to contradict what he said in life.. Luke wrote Luke during the life of Paul - ostensibly seeking to share truth. Then He wrote acts as a sequel ostensibly seeking to share truth. Also, I disagree that it is a "Pauline" perspective and is truly the "Christian perspective."

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 11:50 am If we theorize that there is indeed a great conflict between Peter and Paul, and that we are held accountable to still be under the law (of Moses or some other law), yet we in present know nothing about it, nor can we even define what constitutes law, how can a Just god judge us for breaking it? Surely it's incumbent upon a god who holds the characteristics of justice to at least inform us of what the law is that we are supposed to be living under, right?

I would speculate the single greatest argument against it is 3 Nephi where Christ spells out his doctrine succinctly, which doesn't seem to include any other law in order to attain salvation.
…the law which was given unto Moses hath an end in me. Behold, I am the law, and the light.

We can think of it as Jesus saying “I am the end toward which the law was pointing” - - the MARK, if you will

Jews observant of the law yet incapable of recognizing Jesus in the law were “looking beyond the mark”

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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Pazooka wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 10:32 am There is a debate between Peter and Paul (under the alias Simon Magus) recorded from the standpoint of James the Just, in the Psuedo Clementine. I will look up the original, but here is synopsis:
The author of this novel presents a Peter who emphasizes the need to follow the Jewish law and opposes another figure, his “enemy”, who does not (often called Simon the Samaritan or Magician [Magus] but sometimes clearly a cipher for Paul) . In the supposed letter from Peter to James that prefaces the novel, Peter complains that some “from among the Gentiles have rejected my lawful preaching and have preferred a lawless and absurd doctrine of the man who is my enemy. And indeed some have attempted, while I am still alive, to distort my words by interpretations of many sorts, as if I taught the dissolution of the law and, although I was of this opinion, did not express it openly. But that may God forbid! For to do such a thing means to act contrary to the law of God which was made known by Moses and was confirmed by our Lord in its everlasting continuance. For he said: ‘The heaven and earth will pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall not pass away from the law'”(Epistula Petri 2:2-5; trans. by Strecker in Schneemelcher; cf. Matthew 24:35).

Clearly, the Pseudo-Clementine literature attests to a form of Jewish Christianity (sometimes labelled “Ebionite”) which continued to practice the Jewish law and to oppose those it considered to be neglecting the law, namely the heirs of Paul and a Gentile brand of Christianity (including Marcion). There also seems to be a reference here to some portrayals of Peter which tried to lessen any conflict with Paul by presenting Peter as though he did not require obedience to the law (see, for example, the Acts of the Apostles’ portrayal of a Paul and Peter, whose speeches on inclusion of Gentiles sound very much alike). Later in the Pseudo-Clementine stories of Clement’s journey to Judea and conversion there is a disputation which takes place between Peter and one Simon Magus (the Samaritan), Peter’s “enemy”, which again sometimes clearly serves as a cipher for a “lawless” Paul who had a supposed vision of Jesus (esp. H II 16-17; H XVII 13-19). Paul’s relaxing (for Gentiles) of certain aspects of the Jewish law (including circumcision and food laws) in order to include Gentiles in the Jesus movement was the focus of controversy in Paul’s lifetime (read Galatians) and, long after, continued to arouse the response or anger of some Jewish Christians who felt themselves in continuity with Jewish figures such as Peter.
Wow. Almost a JS/ BY vibe going there. Peter clearly held the keys. Paul clearly felt he was destined to be a big fish.

Got to keep an eye out for those beta dogs. They will seize every opportunity. 😉

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Re: Paul the False Apostle

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Does 3 Nephi really do away with the Law?

Jesus starts out by telling the Nephites that they needn’t offer any more sacrifices (because He obviously fulfilled that requirement and the purpose for which they were offered). Then He rehearses the Sermon on the Mount.

He tells people to repent and be baptized, which they had apparently already been practicing because He tells them basically “this is the way I want you to do it and I don’t want there to be anymore arguing about it like you’ve been doing.” So, baptism wasn’t something Jesus taught as a new thing.

He talks a lot about fulfilling the law - not destroying it. And after that makes a pro-law statement:

Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

He then talks some more about the law and how it all pointed to Him and re-iterates one of the most pro-law statements of the NT:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Works of the law (because the will of God IS law)
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works? FAITH
23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Iniquity = sin = LAWLESSNESS


I don’t know that it could be much clearer, if you know what you’re looking for.

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