Paul the False Apostle

[nightlight]

2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


Mosiah
27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

[Pazooka]

2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


Mosiah
27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

Yeah, so that’s where “the law” gets complex. What laws were fulfilled in Jesus and which were the ones He said were still yet to be fulfilled? Not all law came through Moses. I feel like we’re going in circles, here. But here’s a stunner….Jesus, after all His talk to them Nephites about the ins and outs of the law, reiterates a prophecy of Isaiah in 3 Nephi 20:

36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You will be tempted to say that the circumcision, here, is merely the circumcision of the heart - - even though both existed and were called for before the time of Jesus. But what is “unclean” unless there is a ritually unclean and clean? Which means there is still ritual.

[Redpilled Mormon]

Does 3 Nephi really do away with the Law?

Jesus starts out by telling the Nephites that they needn’t offer any more sacrifices (because He obviously fulfilled that requirement and the purpose for which they were offered). Then He rehearses the Sermon on the Mount.

He tells people to repent and be baptized, which they had apparently already been practicing because He tells them basically “this is the way I want you to do it and I don’t want there to be anymore arguing about it like you’ve been doing.” So, baptism wasn’t something Jesus taught as a new thing.

He talks a lot about fulfilling the law - not destroying it. And after that makes a pro-law statement:

Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

He then talks some more about the law and how it all pointed to Him and re-iterates one of the most pro-law statements of the NT:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Works of the law (because the will of God IS law)
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works? FAITH
23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Iniquity = sin = LAWLESSNESS

I don’t know that it could be much clearer, if you know what you’re looking for.

Not that it does away the law, I guess, but that the law isn't what constitutes what's necessary for salvation. Although I suppose it is sort of tangential, since one of the necessary requirements in the doctrine of Christ is repentance (I think it's crucial that absolute obedience isn't mentioned, rather a willingness to humble ourselves and try, try again, try again, etc), and repentance implies commandments and breaking them, and maybe we can construe the law as part of commandments, or maybe all commandments together constitutes the sum total of the law? Just spitballing...

[nightlight]

2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


Mosiah
27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

Yeah, so that’s where “the law” gets complex. What laws were fulfilled in Jesus and which were the ones He said were still yet to be fulfilled? Not all law came through Moses. I feel like we’re going in circles, here. But here’s a stunner….Jesus, after all His talk to them Nephites about the ins and outs of the law, reiterates a prophecy of Isaiah in 3 Nephi 20:

36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You will be tempted to say that the circumcision, here, is merely the circumcision of the heart - - even though both existed and were called for before the time of Jesus. But what is “unclean” unless there is a ritually unclean and clean? Which means there is still ritual.

Except.... now here's the real stunner.... Both the Book of Mormon and New Testament testify that circumcision is done away in Christ

This is not hard to understand.

Whether or not a man has his foreskin on his penis...he can come to Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost.
If cutting off a baby's foreskin is required to make him one with Christ than you can toss away the Book of Mormon & New Testament

[Pazooka]

Does 3 Nephi really do away with the Law?

Jesus starts out by telling the Nephites that they needn’t offer any more sacrifices (because He obviously fulfilled that requirement and the purpose for which they were offered). Then He rehearses the Sermon on the Mount.

He tells people to repent and be baptized, which they had apparently already been practicing because He tells them basically “this is the way I want you to do it and I don’t want there to be anymore arguing about it like you’ve been doing.” So, baptism wasn’t something Jesus taught as a new thing.

He talks a lot about fulfilling the law - not destroying it. And after that makes a pro-law statement:

Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

He then talks some more about the law and how it all pointed to Him and re-iterates one of the most pro-law statements of the NT:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Works of the law (because the will of God IS law)
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works? FAITH
23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Iniquity = sin = LAWLESSNESS

I don’t know that it could be much clearer, if you know what you’re looking for.

Not that it does away the law, I guess, but that the law isn't what constitutes what's necessary for salvation. Although I suppose it is sort of tangential, since one of the necessary requirements in the doctrine of Christ is repentance (I think it's crucial that absolute obedience isn't mentioned, rather a willingness to humble ourselves and try, try again, try again, etc), and repentance implies commandments and breaking them, and maybe we can construe the law as part of commandments, or maybe all commandments together constitutes the sum total of the law? Just spitballing...

About law not constituting “what’s necessary for salvation”:
What are commandments but law? It’s not as if there are no commandments under Jesus.

I’m trying to remember something I heard about the law in the beginning - - how it was a Hebrew word associated with Wisdom that meant the law of loving kindness. Where mankind doesn’t internalize this it has to be spelled out in legal code, but the law is still the same. The law, under Wisdom, is one that holds the creation together and would, of course, consist of dietary wisdom and the treatment of animals and economic practices within a community - which were part of the law given to Israel. Were they done away with the coming of Jesus?

I found this while looking into the meaning of iniquity:
The Greek word for lawlessness is "anomia," and it is usually translated as "iniquity" in the KJV, and as "lawlessness" in other versions. It is a strong word, and its meaning includes having contempt of law - even rebellion ~ https://www.thegoodseed.org/insights/iniquity.html

[Pazooka]

2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


Mosiah
27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

Yeah, so that’s where “the law” gets complex. What laws were fulfilled in Jesus and which were the ones He said were still yet to be fulfilled? Not all law came through Moses. I feel like we’re going in circles, here. But here’s a stunner….Jesus, after all His talk to them Nephites about the ins and outs of the law, reiterates a prophecy of Isaiah in 3 Nephi 20:

36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You will be tempted to say that the circumcision, here, is merely the circumcision of the heart - - even though both existed and were called for before the time of Jesus. But what is “unclean” unless there is a ritually unclean and clean? Which means there is still ritual.

Except.... now here's the real stunner.... Both the Book of Mormon and New Testament testify that circumcision is done away in Christ

This is not hard to understand.

Whether or not a man has his foreskin on his penis...he can come to Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost.
If cutting off a baby's foreskin is required to make him one with Christ than you can toss away the Book of Mormon & New Testament

You’re not after understanding - your after a fight for your pride. If you’re serious about what’s true, then try and make sense of what Jesus meant by “the unclean” in futurity.

[nightlight]

2nd Nephi

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.
----------------


Mosiah
27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

Yeah, so that’s where “the law” gets complex. What laws were fulfilled in Jesus and which were the ones He said were still yet to be fulfilled? Not all law came through Moses. I feel like we’re going in circles, here. But here’s a stunner….Jesus, after all His talk to them Nephites about the ins and outs of the law, reiterates a prophecy of Isaiah in 3 Nephi 20:

36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You will be tempted to say that the circumcision, here, is merely the circumcision of the heart - - even though both existed and were called for before the time of Jesus. But what is “unclean” unless there is a ritually unclean and clean? Which means there is still ritual.

Except.... now here's the real stunner.... Both the Book of Mormon and New Testament testify that circumcision is done away in Christ

This is not hard to understand.

Whether or not a man has his foreskin on his penis...he can come to Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost.
If cutting off a baby's foreskin is required to make him one with Christ than you can toss away the Book of Mormon & New Testament

You’re not after understanding - your after a fight for your pride. If you’re serious about what’s true, then try and make sense of what Jesus meant by “the unclean” in futurity.

the uncircumcised and the unclean are those who don't hear and do

If I do not watch, pride does come for me. Not just pride though

But with circumcision, I went to God 7 years ago about this law. God taught me the truth.

[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. [13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Pazooka]

Yeah, so that’s where “the law” gets complex. What laws were fulfilled in Jesus and which were the ones He said were still yet to be fulfilled? Not all law came through Moses. I feel like we’re going in circles, here. But here’s a stunner….Jesus, after all His talk to them Nephites about the ins and outs of the law, reiterates a prophecy of Isaiah in 3 Nephi 20:

36 And then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again, and put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city, for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You will be tempted to say that the circumcision, here, is merely the circumcision of the heart - - even though both existed and were called for before the time of Jesus. But what is “unclean” unless there is a ritually unclean and clean? Which means there is still ritual.

Except.... now here's the real stunner.... Both the Book of Mormon and New Testament testify that circumcision is done away in Christ

This is not hard to understand.

Whether or not a man has his foreskin on his penis...he can come to Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost.
If cutting off a baby's foreskin is required to make him one with Christ than you can toss away the Book of Mormon & New Testament

You’re not after understanding - your after a fight for your pride. If you’re serious about what’s true, then try and make sense of what Jesus meant by “the unclean” in futurity.

the uncircumcised and the unclean are those who don't hear and do

If I do not watch, pride does come for me. Not just pride though

But with circumcision, I went to God 7 years ago about this law. God taught me the truth.

[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. [13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Come, you must allow that there are things about this topic that we don’t fully understand. Even the resurrected Jesus, after all his expounding of scripture to the Nephites quotes these verses to them from Malachi:

Remember ye the law of Moses, my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord;
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. ~ 3 Nephi 25: 4-6

Seems to me like there are things about “the law” that have been lost and are in need of restoration. These “fathers” are those of the patriarchs and prophets, as Joseph Smith explains.

[nightlight]

Except.... now here's the real stunner.... Both the Book of Mormon and New Testament testify that circumcision is done away in Christ

This is not hard to understand.

Whether or not a man has his foreskin on his penis...he can come to Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit and be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost.
If cutting off a baby's foreskin is required to make him one with Christ than you can toss away the Book of Mormon & New Testament

You’re not after understanding - your after a fight for your pride. If you’re serious about what’s true, then try and make sense of what Jesus meant by “the unclean” in futurity.

the uncircumcised and the unclean are those who don't hear and do

If I do not watch, pride does come for me. Not just pride though

But with circumcision, I went to God 7 years ago about this law. God taught me the truth.

[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. [13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Come, you must allow that there are things about this topic that we don’t fully understand. Even the resurrected Jesus, after all his expounding of scripture to the Nephites quotes these verses to them from Malachi:

Remember ye the law of Moses, my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord;
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. ~ 3 Nephi 25: 4-6

Seems to me like there are things about “the law” that have been lost and are in need of restoration. These “fathers” are those of the patriarchs and prophets, as Joseph Smith explains.

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

-Lewis

[Pazooka]

You’re not after understanding - your after a fight for your pride. If you’re serious about what’s true, then try and make sense of what Jesus meant by “the unclean” in futurity.

the uncircumcised and the unclean are those who don't hear and do

If I do not watch, pride does come for me. Not just pride though

But with circumcision, I went to God 7 years ago about this law. God taught me the truth.

[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. [13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Come, you must allow that there are things about this topic that we don’t fully understand. Even the resurrected Jesus, after all his expounding of scripture to the Nephites quotes these verses to them from Malachi:

Remember ye the law of Moses, my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord;
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. ~ 3 Nephi 25: 4-6

Seems to me like there are things about “the law” that have been lost and are in need of restoration. These “fathers” are those of the patriarchs and prophets, as Joseph Smith explains.

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

-Lewis

There we have it…maybe it’s as simple as:
You want to believe in a religion about Christ,
And I want to believe in the religion of Christ

That’s the only way I know to interpret your unwillingness to actually look at the things taught BY Jesus but prefer, instead, things said ABOUT Him.

What Jesus taught:
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. ~ Luke 10

[nightlight]

the uncircumcised and the unclean are those who don't hear and do

If I do not watch, pride does come for me. Not just pride though

But with circumcision, I went to God 7 years ago about this law. God taught me the truth.

[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. [13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Come, you must allow that there are things about this topic that we don’t fully understand. Even the resurrected Jesus, after all his expounding of scripture to the Nephites quotes these verses to them from Malachi:

Remember ye the law of Moses, my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord;
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. ~ 3 Nephi 25: 4-6

Seems to me like there are things about “the law” that have been lost and are in need of restoration. These “fathers” are those of the patriarchs and prophets, as Joseph Smith explains.

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

-Lewis

There we have it…maybe it’s as simple as:
You want to believe in a religion about Christ,
And I want to believe in the religion of Christ

That’s the only way I know to interpret your unwillingness to actually look at the things taught BY Jesus but prefer, instead, things said ABOUT Him.

That post is a microcosm of your hypocrisy

You discount His actual words. You simply don't know if it was Him talking to Mormon. I do.

Lol I quote what HE SAID.....and you go on to say you want to believe things TAUGHT BY HIM.....but anything that doesn't support your Sunday Step Counting, you just chalk up as error

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. [12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?"

You synthesize and twist this

Why?

Because what HE TAUGHT right there breaks your doctrine apart like glass

What do you have ?

What follows you?

Has He come to you?

Lol you are use to debating Brighamites who have the visual experiences that line up with the average atheist

you want to believe in a religion about what He said but then deny His sayings

And you accuse me ?

[Wondering Wendy]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it.

[Pazooka]

Come, you must allow that there are things about this topic that we don’t fully understand. Even the resurrected Jesus, after all his expounding of scripture to the Nephites quotes these verses to them from Malachi:

Remember ye the law of Moses, my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord;
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. ~ 3 Nephi 25: 4-6

Seems to me like there are things about “the law” that have been lost and are in need of restoration. These “fathers” are those of the patriarchs and prophets, as Joseph Smith explains.

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

-Lewis

There we have it…maybe it’s as simple as:
You want to believe in a religion about Christ,
And I want to believe in the religion of Christ

That’s the only way I know to interpret your unwillingness to actually look at the things taught BY Jesus but prefer, instead, things said ABOUT Him.

That post is a microcosm of your hypocrisy

You discount His actual words. You simply don't know if it was Him talking to Mormon. I do.

Lol I quote what HE SAID.....and you go on to say you want to believe things TAUGHT BY HIM.....but anything that doesn't support your Sunday Step Counting, you just chalk up as error

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. [12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?"

You synthesize and twist this

Why?

Because what HE TAUGHT right there breaks your doctrine apart like glass

What do you have ?

What follows you?

Has He come to you?

Lol you are use to debating Brighamites who have the visual experiences that line up with the average atheist

you want to believe in a religion about what He said but then deny His sayings

And you accuse me ?

That’s right, Nightlight, what comes out of a man’s mouth does defile him.

There are two laws in particular on which hang all the law and the prophets. The dietary codes are merely afterthoughts compared with those two.

[Pazooka]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it.

I think there’s a lot of faulty teaching we have to overcome when trying to understand law and covenant (they cannot be separated).

The covenant of peace can be summed up as based on loving kindness, ḥesed, which leads to right judgement/ justice, mišpat, which leads to right action/righteousness, ṣedeq, which leads to peace, šālȏm...

The covenant of peace, the eternal covenant, the covenant of loving kindness, is the most fundamental idea in the Bible, and yet has been almost completely neglected. Isaiah’s warning that his people of unclean lips would lose the gifts of spiritual sight and discernment (Isa.6. 9-10) is the most-quoted Isaiah text in the New Testament.
~ Margaret Barker, http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Te ... nt2019.pdf

[nightlight]

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

-Lewis

There we have it…maybe it’s as simple as:
You want to believe in a religion about Christ,
And I want to believe in the religion of Christ

That’s the only way I know to interpret your unwillingness to actually look at the things taught BY Jesus but prefer, instead, things said ABOUT Him.

That post is a microcosm of your hypocrisy

You discount His actual words. You simply don't know if it was Him talking to Mormon. I do.

Lol I quote what HE SAID.....and you go on to say you want to believe things TAUGHT BY HIM.....but anything that doesn't support your Sunday Step Counting, you just chalk up as error

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. [12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?"

You synthesize and twist this

Why?

Because what HE TAUGHT right there breaks your doctrine apart like glass

What do you have ?

What follows you?

Has He come to you?

Lol you are use to debating Brighamites who have the visual experiences that line up with the average atheist

you want to believe in a religion about what He said but then deny His sayings

And you accuse me ?

That’s right, Nightlight, what comes out of a man’s mouth does defile him.

There are two laws in particular on which hang all the law and the prophets. The dietary codes are merely afterthoughts compared with those two.

Yeah I don't care if you call me prideful or whatever you think of me....

Just don't lie about what I've said.

Such a dishonest post, Pazooka

[Pazooka]

There we have it…maybe it’s as simple as:
You want to believe in a religion about Christ,
And I want to believe in the religion of Christ

That’s the only way I know to interpret your unwillingness to actually look at the things taught BY Jesus but prefer, instead, things said ABOUT Him.

That post is a microcosm of your hypocrisy

You discount His actual words. You simply don't know if it was Him talking to Mormon. I do.

Lol I quote what HE SAID.....and you go on to say you want to believe things TAUGHT BY HIM.....but anything that doesn't support your Sunday Step Counting, you just chalk up as error

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. [12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?"

You synthesize and twist this

Why?

Because what HE TAUGHT right there breaks your doctrine apart like glass

What do you have ?

What follows you?

Has He come to you?

Lol you are use to debating Brighamites who have the visual experiences that line up with the average atheist

you want to believe in a religion about what He said but then deny His sayings

And you accuse me ?

That’s right, Nightlight, what comes out of a man’s mouth does defile him.

There are two laws in particular on which hang all the law and the prophets. The dietary codes are merely afterthoughts compared with those two.

Yeah I don't care if you call me prideful or whatever you think of me....

Just don't lie about what I've said.

Such a dishonest post, Pazooka

It truly was not

[Pazooka]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it.

I think there’s a lot of faulty teaching we have to overcome when trying to understand law and covenant (they cannot be separated).

The covenant of peace can be summed up as based on loving kindness, ḥesed, which leads to right judgement/ justice, mišpat, which leads to right action/righteousness, ṣedeq, which leads to peace, šālȏm...

The covenant of peace, the eternal covenant, the covenant of loving kindness, is the most fundamental idea in the Bible, and yet has been almost completely neglected. Isaiah’s warning that his people of unclean lips would lose the gifts of spiritual sight and discernment (Isa.6. 9-10) is the most-quoted Isaiah text in the New Testament.
~ Margaret Barker, http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Te ... nt2019.pdf

Sorry - that was an incomplete thought, there. It was missing the capstone concept that ties the covenant with the law:

The temple priests thought of themselves as these angels, with the High Priest as the chief of the angels, the image of the LORD. The role of the priests, and especially of the High Priest, was to teach, and by right teaching to ensure the well being of the creation and the security of the covenant which bound the creation into one. Just as the angels of Day One were a unity, so their teaching united and maintained the creation. Simeon, High Priest about 280 BCE was remembered for teaching: ‘The world is sustained by three things: by the Law, by the temple liturgy, and by deeds of loving kindness’ (m.Pirke Aboth 1.2). ~ Creation Theology by Margaret Barker

[Pazooka]

To: Nighlight
Love: James

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 26Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

[Luke]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it.

I think there’s a lot of faulty teaching we have to overcome when trying to understand law and covenant (they cannot be separated).

The covenant of peace can be summed up as based on loving kindness, ḥesed, which leads to right judgement/ justice, mišpat, which leads to right action/righteousness, ṣedeq, which leads to peace, šālȏm...

The covenant of peace, the eternal covenant, the covenant of loving kindness, is the most fundamental idea in the Bible, and yet has been almost completely neglected. Isaiah’s warning that his people of unclean lips would lose the gifts of spiritual sight and discernment (Isa.6. 9-10) is the most-quoted Isaiah text in the New Testament.
~ Margaret Barker, http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Te ... nt2019.pdf

How are you defining “the law”?

[Pazooka]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it.

I think there’s a lot of faulty teaching we have to overcome when trying to understand law and covenant (they cannot be separated).

The covenant of peace can be summed up as based on loving kindness, ḥesed, which leads to right judgement/ justice, mišpat, which leads to right action/righteousness, ṣedeq, which leads to peace, šālȏm...

The covenant of peace, the eternal covenant, the covenant of loving kindness, is the most fundamental idea in the Bible, and yet has been almost completely neglected. Isaiah’s warning that his people of unclean lips would lose the gifts of spiritual sight and discernment (Isa.6. 9-10) is the most-quoted Isaiah text in the New Testament.
~ Margaret Barker, http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Te ... nt2019.pdf

How are you defining “the law”?

The same way Jesus does:
2 great commandments on which hang all the other laws

[Bronco73idi]

All of the carnal laws are given for fallen, telestial people. Obeying them is a demonstration to God that you want to change your heart. We are to obey these commandments as we understand them, exercising faith, then repentance, baptism, until we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Then the Mighty Change of Heart occurs.

After this, we are to follow the Holy Spirit who is now guiding us, as we are now redeemed to a terrestrial state. The Spirit will likely tell us to still keep the commandments, only more internally even, such as the Sermon on the Mount instructs. Though it might tell us to break one someday for a righteous purpose. Like it did with Abraham, telling him to sacrifice his son, or withhold the fact that Sarah was his wife. Or with Nephi, telling him to kill Laban, etc.

It might tell us to stop taking medication on faith, or stop watching TV, or stop listening to certain kinds of music. Or don't take that job, or do move to that state. Go help that person and give them what you can. All sorts of things, some that have nothing to do with what's written in scripture.

The Lord is going to test our obedience to heeding the promptings of the Spirit. He is also going to teach us and write the law on our hearts. This law is love God and love your neighbor.

Then, finally, we will get our Calling and Election made sure: celestial state. Now the law, love God and love your neighbor, is fully written on our hearts. We are not perfect as in making no errors, but our hearts are pure with love, as written there by God. We continue to grow in this love and help those around us as best we can and as the Spirit directs.

All of the laws, covenants, and ordinances of the scriptures are there to lead us on this path, to reach this celestial state. Once our hearts are changed, we no longer have a desire to do evil. The Spirit guides us by giving us knowledge on how best to help our brothers and sisters. We are no longer thinking about obeying carnal laws as we are focused on following the Spirit and helping people; the thought of hurting someone is not something we ever want to do. Therefore we break no carnal commandments because they cause pain to others.

The dead works and teaching ordinances, such as circumcision, water baptism, etc. are not necessary for people in a terrestrial state or higher. Only as a witness or manifestation to others to help teach them correct principals. This is why Jesus was baptized. Not for himself, but as an example for others.

So the question then becomes: Is what I'm about to do going to help or hurt someone on their journey to the Lord? Only the Spirit can know for sure, which is why we abide in him and ask.

We start off our relationship with God as Servants. Obeying him for the sake of obedience alone. Then we gradually become Sons or Daughters, asking and learning the reasons behind the commands, as an heir learning the ropes of his father's business. Then, we become Friends. Conversing and counseling with God, as an actual friend would.

To truly progress, we need to move beyond the pharisaical obedience to the carnal laws, and learn to walk in the Spirit as a Friend to God. Jesus fulfilled the law; following him, we need to fulfill the law, also, (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Spirit) and then walk in the Spirit. This is what Paul was teaching. Peter also. The BoM and D&C also. This is the Way, as I understand it.

I think there’s a lot of faulty teaching we have to overcome when trying to understand law and covenant (they cannot be separated).

The covenant of peace can be summed up as based on loving kindness, ḥesed, which leads to right judgement/ justice, mišpat, which leads to right action/righteousness, ṣedeq, which leads to peace, šālȏm...

The covenant of peace, the eternal covenant, the covenant of loving kindness, is the most fundamental idea in the Bible, and yet has been almost completely neglected. Isaiah’s warning that his people of unclean lips would lose the gifts of spiritual sight and discernment (Isa.6. 9-10) is the most-quoted Isaiah text in the New Testament.
~ Margaret Barker, http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Te ... nt2019.pdf

How are you defining “the law”?

The same way Jesus does:
2 great commandments on which hang all the other laws

To love your neighbor is to judge him in righteousness, the same as you should judge yourself in righteousness.

39 is misread and misinterpreted all the time. There is no comma between “neighbor” and “as thyself”

People also act like that was a new profound law, it was given throughout the Old Testament, you should look it up.

[Pazooka]

I think there’s a lot of faulty teaching we have to overcome when trying to understand law and covenant (they cannot be separated).

The covenant of peace can be summed up as based on loving kindness, ḥesed, which leads to right judgement/ justice, mišpat, which leads to right action/righteousness, ṣedeq, which leads to peace, šālȏm...

The covenant of peace, the eternal covenant, the covenant of loving kindness, is the most fundamental idea in the Bible, and yet has been almost completely neglected. Isaiah’s warning that his people of unclean lips would lose the gifts of spiritual sight and discernment (Isa.6. 9-10) is the most-quoted Isaiah text in the New Testament.
~ Margaret Barker, http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Te ... nt2019.pdf

How are you defining “the law”?

The same way Jesus does:
2 great commandments on which hang all the other laws

To love your neighbor is to judge him in righteousness, the same as you should judge yourself in righteousness.

39 is misread and misinterpreted all the time. There is no comma between “neighbor” and “as thyself”

People also act like that was a new profound law, it was given throughout the Old Testament, you should look it up.

That’s the point. It was given throughout the OT. The law did not change. The Lawgiver did not change. There is no “old covenant” and “new covenant.” There is the everlasting covenant, given to Adam and renewed through Jesus with His blood.

[Bronco73idi]

How are you defining “the law”?

The same way Jesus does:
2 great commandments on which hang all the other laws

To love your neighbor is to judge him in righteousness, the same as you should judge yourself in righteousness.

39 is misread and misinterpreted all the time. There is no comma between “neighbor” and “as thyself”

People also act like that was a new profound law, it was given throughout the Old Testament, you should look it up.

That’s the point. It was given throughout the OT. The law did not change. The Lawgiver did not change. There is no “old covenant” and “new covenant.” There is the everlasting covenant, given to Adam and renewed through Jesus with His blood.

The everlasting covenant is given to Adam and renewed through Jesus, women are a part of it but can not be the main participate.

[nightlight]

To: Nighlight
Love: James

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 26Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

Lol first I'm only in this discussion because I'm fighting for my pride......and now my religion is worthless because I don't do what God says to do

But you're just judging me in righteousness!
Like the law says!!!


James:

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

[Pazooka]

To: Nighlight
Love: James

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 26Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

Lol first I'm only in this discussion because I'm fighting for my pride......and now my religion is worthless because I don't do what God says to do

But you're just judging me in righteousness!
Like the law says!!!


James:

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

I should have bolded the “whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it” part, as that’s what most interested me in relation to you and this discussion.

But I also thought the “consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless” was mighty intriguing.

There is only one Lawgiver and I’ll let Him judge. But I am under obligation to warn a brother.