LDS Freedom Forum

I recently read an experience from a gentleman I know that I found quite interesting. He feels strongly that the church is in error on many levels, that doctrines are either wrong or extremely watered down. A few months ago he got up during fast and testimony meeting and bore witness that the church is in apostasy. His bishop called him into a meeting and ask why he was still attending church. He said that he was there to warn others. The bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Instead of church leaders wanting to know why a person feels the church is in apostasy and addressing those concerns, they really don't want to deal with it and simply ask why the person doesn't just remove their records. This exact thing happened to me and my EQ president.

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 am I recently read an experience from a gentleman I know that I found quite interesting. He feels strongly that the church is in error on many levels, that doctrines are either wrong or extremely watered down. A few months ago he got up during fast and testimony meeting and bore witness that the church is in apostasy. His bishop called him into a meeting and ask why he was still attending church. He said that he was there to warn others. The bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Instead of church leaders wanting to know why a person feels the church is in apostasy and addressing those concerns, they really don't want to deal with it and simply ask why the person doesn't just remove their records. This exact thing happened to me and my EQ president.

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

Dude should press the 1st amendment, and post to YouTube.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:50 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 am I recently read an experience from a gentleman I know that I found quite interesting. He feels strongly that the church is in error on many levels, that doctrines are either wrong or extremely watered down. A few months ago he got up during fast and testimony meeting and bore witness that the church is in apostasy. His bishop called him into a meeting and ask why he was still attending church. He said that he was there to warn others. The bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Instead of church leaders wanting to know why a person feels the church is in apostasy and addressing those concerns, they really don't want to deal with it and simply ask why the person doesn't just remove their records. This exact thing happened to me and my EQ president.

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

Dude should press the 1st amendment, and post to YouTube.

I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

No man should be turned away from a place of worship................

I guess it just matters why you attend church. Is it to keep the status quo and stay in your comfort zone, or is it to find truth? If it’s to keep the status quo, then kick the guy out. But if you’re in search of truth, it’s always good to hear the another point of view. You will either correct your ways or strengthen your existing testimony.

What better lesson plan than to start the year off with D&C 84:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.


And then go into each one of the points the guy gave in his testimony abut the church being in apostasy. I could think of no better gospel doctrine class than that.

Sad situation all around. Bishop is trying protecting his ward (believing the status quo and upholding it). Is calling the cops the appropriate initial response if your friend speaks his mind again? I'd love to see an alternative/independent Book of Mormon faithful convention to help bring notice to the general message your friend wanted to express (belief in the Book of Mormon, lack of belief in the modern Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

I know there's that annual Sunstone gathering but they host non-believing historical Book of Mormon crowds and messages

I think something devoted to independently or alternatively holding faith in the Book of Mormon could lead to an interesting convention/gathering. Hopefully it wouldn't just be interesting, but also healthy and beneficial.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 6:04 am

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:50 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 am I recently read an experience from a gentleman I know that I found quite interesting. He feels strongly that the church is in error on many levels, that doctrines are either wrong or extremely watered down. A few months ago he got up during fast and testimony meeting and bore witness that the church is in apostasy. His bishop called him into a meeting and ask why he was still attending church. He said that he was there to warn others. The bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Instead of church leaders wanting to know why a person feels the church is in apostasy and addressing those concerns, they really don't want to deal with it and simply ask why the person doesn't just remove their records. This exact thing happened to me and my EQ president.

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

Dude should press the 1st amendment, and post to YouTube.

I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

The "crime" is probably disturbing the peace. So what we all should realize now, is that the LDS church considers telling the truth, a crime. Punishable by imprisonment or fine or both.

I doubt if Jesus ever called the police an anyone. Well, no surprise here. They are democrats, after all. There is no place for truth in satan's party. It is the mantra of all democrats to weaponize all government agencies. The US government is one of satan's strongest supporters. Most governments, actually. So the church has just become another of satan's arms. That way they get to keep the loot. All of those pictures of Franklin.

I bet Franklin is not nearly as famous or in demand in heaven as he is at LDS headquarters.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 am I recently read an experience from a gentleman I know that I found quite interesting. He feels strongly that the church is in error on many levels, that doctrines are either wrong or extremely watered down. A few months ago he got up during fast and testimony meeting and bore witness that the church is in apostasy. His bishop called him into a meeting and ask why he was still attending church. He said that he was there to warn others. The bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Instead of church leaders wanting to know why a person feels the church is in apostasy and addressing those concerns, they really don't want to deal with it and simply ask why the person doesn't just remove their records. This exact thing happened to me and my EQ president.

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

They need a safe space? Sounds more like snow flakes.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 am I recently read an experience from a gentleman I know that I found quite interesting. He feels strongly that the church is in error on many levels, that doctrines are either wrong or extremely watered down. A few months ago he got up during fast and testimony meeting and bore witness that the church is in apostasy. His bishop called him into a meeting and ask why he was still attending church. He said that he was there to warn others. The bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Instead of church leaders wanting to know why a person feels the church is in apostasy and addressing those concerns, they really don't want to deal with it and simply ask why the person doesn't just remove their records. This exact thing happened to me and my EQ president.

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

Such acts of courage must be sorely punished…

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 amThe bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Wow! That's a really, really weird response!

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

I know of some people who got restraining orders forbidding them to 1) enter certain church buildings or 2) any property the LDS Church owns.

1st one was a friend of mine, single, who an institute teacher felt harassed by. The ban lasted about a year, I think.

2nd one was a family who had been forbidden to take the sacrament, so they brought their own bread and wine and quietly had their own sacrament in the overflow of the chapel. From what I gather, one person was offended and reported them to the bishop. They got a Kirton-McConkie letter telling them they couldn't go onto any Church property. For a while, one of them took great pleasure in reporting she was in the Church parking lot (picking up someone, I think) or in Deseret Industries.

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 12:05 pm No man should be turned away from a place of worship................

It’s not, it’s a corporation.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 6:04 am
I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

Not if it’s open to the public, is my understanding. Like a grocery store, for instance, if they require a mask to enter, it is against the law to require such, so it is within your rights to insist entrance.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 2:42 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 5:41 amThe bishop's response was a bit surprising, he said that if this man did this again that he'd call the police on him.

Wow! That's a really, really weird response!

As far as the police comments... wow, that would be really interesting to have a restraining order in place so you couldn't attend church. And I get it, leaders want to create a safe space where members don't have to have their beliefs challenged. You cannot question the narrative without serious repercussions.

I know of some people who got restraining orders forbidding them to 1) enter certain church buildings or 2) any property the LDS Church owns.


2nd one was a family who had been forbidden to take the sacrament, so they brought their own bread and wine and quietly had their own sacrament in the overflow of the chapel. From what I gather, one person was offended and reported them to the bishop. They got a Kirton-McConkie letter telling them they couldn't go onto any Church property. For a while, one of them took great pleasure in reporting she was in the Church parking lot (picking up someone, I think) or in Deseret Industries.

The Apostle Paul said that there was something seriously wrong with a congregation that went to the courts of the land against their fellow christians..........
He said Christians were not to go to the courts of the land, but to resolve any problems that arose in their congregations amongst themselves.

One notices that in the Book of Mormon that there was three stern commandments given that they were not to prevent anybody from entering their places of worship.

madvin wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 6:04 am
I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

Not if it’s open to the public, is my understanding. Like a grocery store, for instance, if they require a mask to enter, it is against the law to require such, so it is within your rights to insist entrance.

Any “public” business can call the police on you and have a restraining order against you. I guess you could sue them, but I’d rather spend my time in more productive ways. The church will reap what they sow.

madvin wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 6:04 am
I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

Not if it’s open to the public, is my understanding. Like a grocery store, for instance, if they require a mask to enter, it is against the law to require such, so it is within your rights to insist entrance.

I've known people who were kicked out of stores and forbidden to go in them again. They made themselves enough of a nuisance to the management of said stores that they were no longer welcome. I've also heard of people being banned from stores for stealing from them.

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:16 pm The Apostle Paul said that there was something seriously wrong with a congregation that went to the courts of the land against their fellow christians..........
He said Christians were not to go to the courts of the land, but to resolve any problems that arose in their congregations amongst themselves.

Amen to Paul!

One notices that in the Book of Mormon that there was three stern commandments given that they were not to prevent anybody from entering their places of worship.

True.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:56 pm

madvin wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 6:04 am
I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

Not if it’s open to the public, is my understanding. Like a grocery store, for instance, if they require a mask to enter, it is against the law to require such, so it is within your rights to insist entrance.

I've known people who were kicked out of stores and forbidden to go in them again. They made themselves enough of a nuisance to the management of said stores that they were no longer welcome. I've also heard of people being banned from stores for stealing from them.

Yes, I have also. My point is that there is a law forbidding that. So much for laws that go against the narrative though.

madvin wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 4:01 pm Yes, I have also. My point is that there is a law forbidding that. So much for laws that go against the narrative though.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:52 pm

madvin wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 3:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 6:04 am
I'm pretty sure any private entity (let's just call it a business, for that is what it is) has the right to kick you out.

Not if it’s open to the public, is my understanding. Like a grocery store, for instance, if they require a mask to enter, it is against the law to require such, so it is within your rights to insist entrance.

Any “public” business can call the police on you and have a restraining order against you. I guess you could sue them, but I’d rather spend my time in more productive ways. The church will reap what they sow.

My point being regardless how they flout the law, it nevertheless is the law.

I recall a scripture about not denying any person from worshipping... anyone know where that's at?

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 4:14 pm I recall a scripture about not denying any person from worshipping... anyone know where that's at?

3 Nephi 18

22 And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;

23 But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name.

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

26 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he turned his eyes again upon the adisciples whom he had chosen, and said unto them:

27 Behold verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you another commandment, and then I must go unto my Father that I may fulfil bother commandments which he hath given me.

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and ablood bunworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.

31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.

32 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out of your synagogues, or your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.

33 Therefore, keep these sayings which I have commanded you that ye come not under condemnation; for wo unto him whom the Father condemneth.

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 4:20 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 25th, 2022, 4:14 pm I recall a scripture about not denying any person from worshipping... anyone know where that's at?

Ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;

But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name.

Thanks. 3 Nephi 18:22-23 for those wondering.

Immediately silencing the opposition is a tactic for those with something to hide or the inability to refute what's being said.

If this man was repeatedly standing up and being a nuisance, that's a different story. I'm totally in favor of kicking certain people out of my place of worship. But this was a single instance where he simply shared his perspective, albeit against the grain, and in no way merits action from local authorities.

This bishop is afraid. But of what?

I was told that I wasn’t needed wanted or welcome in the church. I can’t remember what I said. It was in Sunday school and could be found on lds.org at the time. Nothing to radical or “anti”, but it offended the teacher who was a pompous prat. The biahop gave me a stern lecture and when I tried to discuss it from scriptures he stuck his fingers in his ears and yelled “la la la la I’m not listening”. He told me if it wasn’t in the last conference ensign or two it didn’t matter. I kept going to make them nervous until I moved a few months later. The bishop here dropped in one day when I was gone and accused my wife of everything from being lazy, to drug and alcohol abuse, to adultery to more serious crimes. He’d never met us. I still have never met him, but he told my brother what an awful person I was. This kind of behavior is par for the course.