LDS Freedom Forum

• Verses 1-11 reveal the "sign" (aka: book of Mormon) which will come forth to the Gentiles and then be brought from the Gentiles to the remnant of the house of Israel, as well as the ministry of Joseph Smith.
• Verses 12-21 describe a period of tribulation that will take place AFTER the BoM has been brought forth and BEFORE the building of the NJ.
• Verses 22-29 address the commencement of the work of the father, building the NJ, that Christ will be physically present with this group, and the process of gathering.

But if they (the Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

1. Christ never established His church in Joseph's day (hence the need for it to be established).
2. His church was established but fell away (hence the need for it to be established again once the Gentiles have repented).
3. The Church of Christ is much more than what some men claim.

"For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord" (2 Nephi 28:3)

ransomme wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 1:50 am Cheers brother. Number three is definitely true, but it also doesn't have to be true to the exclusion of choice 1 or 2.

I think it is choices 3 + 2.

That chapter had been an important one for me for years now. All of those in 3 Nephi with Christ speaking about the time of the Jews and the time of the Gentiles. Anyhow.....

What does His Church/Community mean?

Church of the Lamb?
Fullness of the priesthood / His presence?
Those who have at least received the Holy Ghost, who have at least come through the gate?
???

Well the LORD defined it as:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. - D&C 10:67 (1828)

And added:

Wait a little longer, until you shall have my word, my rock, my church, and my gospel, that you may know of a surety my doctrine. - D&C 11:16 (1829)

For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. - D&C 18:4-5 (1829)

Also one thing that sticks out to me is that the bringing forth the BoM by Joseph / the Gentiles seems to have just placed the dominoes just right so that before the Endtime the BoM would fall into the hands of the people who will make up the foundation of the Endtime remnant of Jacob. It was done this way to fulfill prophecy and the covenants that the LORD made concerning, a remnant, the seed of the BoM people who are of the house of Israel. (3N21:1-7)

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 20th, 2022, 11:56 pm I've been pondering on some things taught in 3 Nephi 21 for the last several months. The entire chapter is a fascinating timeline of events that begins with the coming forth of the book of Mormon and ends with the building of the New Jerusalem and the literal gathering of Israel.

• Verses 1-11 reveal the "sign" (aka: book of Mormon) which will come forth to the Gentiles and then be brought from the Gentiles to the remnant of the house of Israel, as well as the ministry of Joseph Smith.
• Verses 12-21 describe a period of tribulation that will take place AFTER the BoM has been brought forth and BEFORE the building of the NJ.
• Verses 22-29 address the commencement of the work of the father, building the NJ, that Christ will be physically present with this group, and the process of gathering.

There's a lot to unpack, but I want to discuss what this reveals about Christ's church. First, it should be noted that we are considered Gentiles as referenced in the BoM. If you don't believe me, take it up with Joseph (D&C 109:60).

There is a single reference to His church in verse 22:

But if they (the Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Now, this is where the dilemma of current claims begins. If I'm not mistaken, Christ pointedly states that He will establish His church among the Gentiles (us) if we will repent. This occurs AFTER the BoM comes forth, AFTER the period of tribulation, and just before the NJ is built.

To my knowledge, the destruction in verses 12-21 has yet to occur. We still have our "chariots", there are still "lyings" and "whoredoms", and our cities have not been destroyed. Feel free to correct me if that observation is false, and we have already seen God's wrath post-Joseph's era.

What does that mean about claims of being Christ's "only" church that will "never fall away" if there is a FUTURE day in which He will establish His church among the Gentiles who repent? It means that these claims are false. This day has not come, and so His church will yet be established... either again, or for the first time.

I see three main conclusions that can be drawn:

1. Christ never established His church in Joseph's day (hence the need for it to be established).
2. His church was established but fell away (hence the need for it to be established again once the Gentiles have repented).
3. The Church of Christ is much more than what some men claim.

My vote is cast on option 3, I've written more about that here.

This isn't an "attack" of any sort, but an honest evaluation of Christ's words which were written specifically for you and me. Sooner or later, members of the LDS organization will have to come to grips with the fact that they've been lied to about Christ's true church.

These false claims have fulfilled prophecy:

"For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord" (2 Nephi 28:3)

My conclusion here is also consistent with 3 Nephi 16:10-14.

Anywho, that's enough for my midnight ramblings. God bless, friends.

Here's a related thread that may be of interest:
viewtopic.php?t=66667

D&C Section 133

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the Lord your God, and hear the word of the Lord concerning you—
2 The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.
3 For he shall make bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of their God.
4 Wherefore, prepare ye, prepare ye, O my people; sanctify yourselves; gather ye together, O ye people of my church, upon the land of Zion, all you that have not been commanded to tarry.
5 Go ye out from Babylon. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.
6 Call your solemn assemblies, and speak often one to another. And let every man call upon the name of the Lord.
7 Yea, verily I say unto you again, the time has come when the voice of the Lord is unto you: Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
8 Send forth the elders of my church unto the nations which are afar off; unto the islands of the sea; send forth unto foreign lands; call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews.
9 And behold, and lo, this shall be their cry, and the voice of the Lord unto all people: Go ye forth unto the land of Zion, that the borders of my people may be enlarged, and that her stakes may be strengthened, and that Zion may go forth unto the regions round about.
10 Yea, let the cry go forth among all people: Awake and arise and go forth to meet the Bridegroom; behold and lo, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Prepare yourselves for the great day of the Lord.
11 Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour.
12 Let them, therefore, who are among the Gentiles flee unto Zion.
13 And let them who be of Judah flee unto Jerusalem, unto the mountains of the Lord’s house.
14 Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.
15 But verily, thus saith the Lord, let not your flight be in haste, but let all things be prepared before you; and he that goeth, let him not look back lest sudden destruction shall come upon him.
16 Hearken and hear, O ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen, ye elders of my church together, and hear the voice of the Lord; for he calleth upon all men, and he commandeth all men everywhere to repent.
17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—
18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.
20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.
35 And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever.
36 And now, verily saith the Lord, that these things might be known among you, O inhabitants of the earth, I have sent forth mine angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel, who hath appeared unto some and hath committed it unto man, who shall appear unto many that dwell on the earth.
37 And this gospel shall be preached unto every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.
38 And the servants of God shall go forth, saying with a loud voice: Fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come;
39 And worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters—
40 Calling upon the name of the Lord day and night, saying: O that thou wouldst rend the heavens, that thou wouldst come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence.
41 And it shall be answered upon their heads; for the presence of the Lord shall be as the melting fire that burneth, and as the fire which causeth the waters to boil.
42 O Lord, thou shalt come down to make thy name known to thine adversaries, and all nations shall tremble at thy presence—
43 When thou doest terrible things, things they look not for;
44 Yea, when thou comest down, and the mountains flow down at thy presence, thou shalt meet him who rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, who remembereth thee in thy ways.
45 For since the beginning of the world have not men heard nor perceived by the ear, neither hath any eye seen, O God, besides thee, how great things thou hast prepared for him that waiteth for thee.
46 And it shall be said: Who is this that cometh down from God in heaven with dyed garments; yea, from the regions which are not known, clothed in his glorious apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength?
47 And he shall say: I am he who spake in righteousness, mighty to save.
48 And the Lord shall be red in his apparel, and his garments like him that treadeth in the wine-vat.
49 And so great shall be the glory of his presence that the sun shall hide his face in shame, and the moon shall withhold its light, and the stars shall be hurled from their places.
50 And his voice shall be heard: I have trodden the wine-press alone, and have brought judgment upon all people; and none were with me;
51 And I have trampled them in my fury, and I did tread upon them in mine anger, and their blood have I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart.
52 And now the year of my redeemed is come; and they shall mention the loving kindness of their Lord, and all that he has bestowed upon them according to his goodness, and according to his loving kindness, forever and ever.
53 In all their afflictions he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them; and in his love, and in his pity, he redeemed them, and bore them, and carried them all the days of old;
54 Yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him; the prophets who were before him; and Noah also, and they who were before him; and Moses also, and they who were before him;
55 And from Moses to Elijah, and from Elijah to John, who were with Christ in his resurrection, and the holy apostles, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, shall be in the presence of the Lamb.
56 And the graves of the saints shall be opened; and they shall come forth and stand on the right hand of the Lamb, when he shall stand upon Mount Zion, and upon the holy city, the New Jerusalem; and they shall sing the song of the Lamb, day and night forever and ever.
57 And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—
58 To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise, and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight.
59 And by the weak things of the earth the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of his Spirit.
60 And for this cause these commandments were given; they were commanded to be kept from the world in the day that they were given, but now are to go forth unto all flesh—
61 And this according to the mind and will of the Lord, who ruleth over all flesh.
62 And unto him that repenteth and sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life.
63 And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people.
64 And also that which was written by the prophet Malachi: For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
65 Wherefore, this shall be the answer of the Lord unto them:
66 In that day when I came unto mine own, no man among you received me, and you were driven out.
67 When I called again there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver.
68 Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea. I make the rivers a wilderness; their fish stink, and die for thirst.
69 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and make sackcloth their covering.
70 And this shall ye have of my hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow.
71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.
72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.
73 These shall go away into outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
74 Behold the Lord your God hath spoken it. Amen.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:41 am No, I don't believe that 3 Nephi 21 disproves the truthfulness claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at all.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:52 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:41 am No, I don't believe that 3 Nephi 21 disproves the truthfulness claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at all.

Just saying that doesn't mean anything.

D&C 133 is great, and doesn't contradict any of my conclusions here.

I think we can agree that there is a straightforward timeline of events in this chapter; as such, if you think that Christ's church was established and will NOT be established again as stated in verse 22, I'd love for you to explain why. Preferably using the BoM... the "most correct" of any book.

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:55 am The church was indeed established and the Lord said so even in D&C, but Zion was never redeemed and the church remains under condemnation. If you take anything away from the D&C it is this.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:01 am I think you had better read D&C 133 again. The role of the Lord's church in the last days events begins well before the tribulation. Also notice who leads the final gathering and receives the greatest blessing. It's the children of Ephraim. Now who could that be?

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:02 am

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:55 am The church was indeed established and the Lord said so even in D&C, but Zion was never redeemed and the church remains under condemnation. If you take anything away from the D&C it is this.

I agree. But does it remain His church if it has been defiled? If it remains the true church, why will Christ establish it again after the destruction? Do you think that Him establishing it is simply a "correction" of what's already here, or something entirely new?

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:09 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:02 am

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:55 am The church was indeed established and the Lord said so even in D&C, but Zion was never redeemed and the church remains under condemnation. If you take anything away from the D&C it is this.

I agree. But does it remain His church if it has been defiled? If it remains the true church, why will Christ establish it again after the destruction? Do you think that Him establishing it is simply a "correction" of what's already here, or something entirely new?

That's like asking if we remain His disciples if we have sinned. Aren't we always sinning and defiling ourselves? What does that make us then?

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:05 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:01 am I think you had better read D&C 133 again. The role of the Lord's church in the last days events begins well before the tribulation. Also notice who leads the final gathering and receives the greatest blessing. It's the children of Ephraim. Now who could that be?

I don't disagree with any of that, and it doesn't contradict what I've stated.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:21 am If you don't disagree with any of this, then I don't know what your contention is.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:20 amYeah, interesting. I do think there's a distinction between one of God's children who sins and an organization falling away, but I get your point. It makes sense if the church is only physical, but I don't believe it is. Christ's church never changes, as it is spiritual. The physical church is established when those who enter the spiritual church gather together, IMO. I think that verse 22 refers to the spiritual.

But in that case, what do you think it means for Him to establish His church?

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:36 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:20 amYeah, interesting. I do think there's a distinction between one of God's children who sins and an organization falling away, but I get your point. It makes sense if the church is only physical, but I don't believe it is. Christ's church never changes, as it is spiritual. The physical church is established when those who enter the spiritual church gather together, IMO. I think that verse 22 refers to the spiritual.

But in that case, what do you think it means for Him to establish His church?

Before I answer your question, keep in mind that our bodies are Telestial as is the church. We live in a Telestial realm. So what do I think it means for Him to establish His church? Well, with reference to 3 Nephi 21, it is a body of believers (and doers), I'll just quote D&C 1 which is the preface of the entire canon. This section constitutes the Lord’s preface to the doctrines, covenants, and commandments given in this dispensation:

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:28 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:21 am If you don't disagree with any of this, then I don't know what your contention is.

What do you think Christ means in verse 22, that He will establish His church again when the Gentiles repent?

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:57 amSo in simple terms, you believe that He means a physical gathering of believers?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:02 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:28 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:21 am If you don't disagree with any of this, then I don't know what your contention is.

What do you think Christ means in verse 22, that He will establish His church again when the Gentiles repent?

Let's put verse 22 back into context.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Notice in verse 14, that the tribulation/destruction comes upon those Gentiles who do not repent. Those who refuse to repent and come unto Christ will be cut off and destroyed. Same goes for Israelites (verse 20).

So verse 22 is telling the Gentiles and Israelites (everyone) how to avoid the coming tribulation/destruction, not what they are to do after the tribulation/destruction has already taken place.

This is consistent with what rest of the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say on the subject. The entire purpose of the restoration of the gospel and establishment of the Lord's one true church in 1830 was so people could avoid the coming tribulation/destruction. See D&C 1 and a host of other scriptures.

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:07 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:57 am So in simple terms, you believe that He means a physical gathering of believers?

Yes. but not just a gathering of believers, but a gathering of believers with a covenant. That's what the BoM is pointing us to. God seeks a covenant people to redeem. And by redeem, I mean to bring into a Terrestrial state, or in other words, Zion.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:14 am

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:07 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:57 am So in simple terms, you believe that He means a physical gathering of believers?

Yes. but not just a gathering of believers, but a gathering of believers with a covenant. That's what the BoM is pointing us to. God seeks a covenant people to redeem. And by redeem, I mean to bring into a Terrestrial state, or in other words, Zion.

Gotcha. I think we agree about that. Where we may vary is that I feel verse 22 is specifically referencing a restoration of sorts, which will be done among people who were wicked and then entered the covenant you're referring to.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:10 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:02 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:28 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:21 am If you don't disagree with any of this, then I don't know what your contention is.

What do you think Christ means in verse 22, that He will establish His church again when the Gentiles repent?

Let's put verse 22 back into context.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Notice in verse 14, that the tribulation/destruction comes upon those Gentiles who do not repent. Those who refuse to repent and come unto Christ will be cut off and destroyed. Same goes for Israelites (verse 20).

So verse 22 is telling the Gentiles and Israelites (everyone) how to avoid the coming tribulation/destruction, not what they are to do after the tribulation/destruction has already taken place.

This is consistent with what rest of the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say on the subject. The entire purpose of the restoration of the gospel and establishment of the Lord's one true church in 1830 was so people could avoid the coming tribulation/destruction. See D&C 1 and a host of other scriptures.

But He doesn't say that those who repent will be gathered into His church, He says that it will be established. There is no point in establishing something that is already there. Establish means to "set up", which implies newness.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:52 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:10 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:02 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 9:28 am
What do you think Christ means in verse 22, that He will establish His church again when the Gentiles repent?

Let's put verse 22 back into context.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Notice in verse 14, that the tribulation/destruction comes upon those Gentiles who do not repent. Those who refuse to repent and come unto Christ will be cut off and destroyed. Same goes for Israelites (verse 20).

So verse 22 is telling the Gentiles and Israelites (everyone) how to avoid the coming tribulation/destruction, not what they are to do after the tribulation/destruction has already taken place.

This is consistent with what rest of the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say on the subject. The entire purpose of the restoration of the gospel and establishment of the Lord's one true church in 1830 was so people could avoid the coming tribulation/destruction. See D&C 1 and a host of other scriptures.

But He doesn't say that those who repent will be gathered into His church, He says that it will be established. There is no point in establishing something that is already there. Establish means to "set up", which implies newness.

Might I suggest you take a look at the actual definition of the word establish at the time of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Establish doesn't imply newness at all.

https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Establish

The Lord's one true church was restored with 6 founding members on April 6, 1830. It would take a long, long time for the church to actually be established among those Gentiles who accepted the restored gospel and repented throughout the world.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:56 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:52 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:10 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:02 am

Let's put verse 22 back into context.


Notice in verse 14, that the tribulation/destruction comes upon those Gentiles who do not repent. Those who refuse to repent and come unto Christ will be cut off and destroyed. Same goes for Israelites (verse 20).

So verse 22 is telling the Gentiles and Israelites (everyone) how to avoid the coming tribulation/destruction, not what they are to do after the tribulation/destruction has already taken place.

This is consistent with what rest of the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say on the subject. The entire purpose of the restoration of the gospel and establishment of the Lord's one true church in 1830 was so people could avoid the coming tribulation/destruction. See D&C 1 and a host of other scriptures.

But He doesn't say that those who repent will be gathered into His church, He says that it will be established. There is no point in establishing something that is already there. Establish means to "set up", which implies newness.

Might I suggest you take a look at the actual definition of the word establish at the time of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Establish doesn't imply newness at all.

https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Establish

The Lord's one true church was restored with 6 founding members on April 6, 1830. It would take a long, long time for the church to actually be established among those Gentiles who accepted the restored gospel and repented throughout the world.

So you don't believe it was established with Joseph?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 11:03 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:56 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:52 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:10 am

But He doesn't say that those who repent will be gathered into His church, He says that it will be established. There is no point in establishing something that is already there. Establish means to "set up", which implies newness.

Might I suggest you take a look at the actual definition of the word establish at the time of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Establish doesn't imply newness at all.

https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Establish

The Lord's one true church was restored with 6 founding members on April 6, 1830. It would take a long, long time for the church to actually be established among those Gentiles who accepted the restored gospel and repented throughout the world.

So you don't believe it was established with Joseph?

It was restored and began to be established with Joseph.

Read the Wentworth letter. Joseph was well aware that the establishment of the church throughout the nations of the earth had only just begun. But he was equally aware that the establishment of the Lord's church would continue and could not be stopped until it had filled the whole earth.