3 Nephi 21 disproves claims to Christ's church

[Luke]

Seeing Christ is a pretty pathetic thing to be afraid of for someone who claims to speak for Him, no matter how you justify it. Adieu.

There's evidence that Heber J. Grant suffered from anxiety sometimes. But I'm sure that's pathetic to you, too. Adios.

Sorry Matthias but that's simply not good enough.

It didn't say it was. People aren't perfect, and that includes servants of God. Mocking people for their weaknesses is what's truly pathetic.

And I would appreciate it if you didn't refer to may by that name anymore.

I'm not mocking him. I'm saying that you trying to justify the fact that HJG was too scared to ask to have experiences required for the job he claimed God placed him in (based on allegations) is just nonsense.

The reality is that HJG was a persecutor of those who wanted the Fullness of the Gospel. Just sad.

[Luke]

“I have never prayed to see the Savior. I know of men–Apostles–who have seen the Savior more than once. I have prayed to the Lord for the inspiration of His Spirit to guide me, and I have told Him that I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestation to them, they felt their importance, their greatness.” (Heber J. Grant, as quoted in The Diaries of Heber J. Grant, pg. 468)

[LDS Watchman]

There's evidence that Heber J. Grant suffered from anxiety sometimes. But I'm sure that's pathetic to you, too. Adios.

Sorry Matthias but that's simply not good enough.

It didn't say it was. People aren't perfect, and that includes servants of God. Mocking people for their weaknesses is what's truly pathetic.

And I would appreciate it if you didn't refer to may by that name anymore.

I'm not mocking him. I'm saying that you trying to justify the fact that HJG was too scared to ask to have experiences required for the job he claimed God placed him in (based on allegations) is just nonsense.

The reality is that HJG was a persecutor of those who wanted the Fullness of the Gospel. Just sad.

I never said you were mocking him. But a certain someone sure was. Your fundamentalist bias towards the man is clearly showing loud and clear, though.

I wasn't justifying what he said at all. I was simply providing my take on the quote and the mocking of another poster over what he said.

[Luke]

Your fundamentalist bias towards the man is clearly showing loud and clear, though.

I never tried to hide it. Of course I have bias. We all have bias. It's likewise undeniable that your mainstream LDS view is showing loud and clear.

The only difference is that mine is actually true--backed up by facts. HJG was a well-known persecutor of polygamists (whilst knowing about the 1886 Revelation and the like). He spent his life trying to put them behind bars. God settled the score by taking Grant three days after the polygamists were locked up.

[Reluctant Watchman]

“I have never prayed to see the Savior. I know of men–Apostles–who have seen the Savior more than once. I have prayed to the Lord for the inspiration of His Spirit to guide me, and I have told Him that I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestation to them, they felt their importance, their greatness.” (Heber J. Grant, as quoted in The Diaries of Heber J. Grant, pg. 468)

That's a horrible quote/perspective.

He's essentially saying that he sees others become high-minded and fallen because they let pride get to them, so he wont' even attempt to seek after a personal witness of Christ....

[Luke]

“I have never prayed to see the Savior. I know of men–Apostles–who have seen the Savior more than once. I have prayed to the Lord for the inspiration of His Spirit to guide me, and I have told Him that I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestation to them, they felt their importance, their greatness.” (Heber J. Grant, as quoted in The Diaries of Heber J. Grant, pg. 468)

That's a horrible quote/perspective.

It is.

[LDS Watchman]

“I have never prayed to see the Savior. I know of men–Apostles–who have seen the Savior more than once. I have prayed to the Lord for the inspiration of His Spirit to guide me, and I have told Him that I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestation to them, they felt their importance, their greatness.” (Heber J. Grant, as quoted in The Diaries of Heber J. Grant, pg. 468)

That's a horrible quote/perspective.

He's essentially saying that he sees others become high-minded and fallen because they let pride get to them, so he wont' even attempt to seek after a personal witness of Christ....

That's not what he said at all. He absolutely did NOT say that he "wont' even attempt to seek after a personal witness of Christ." A personal witness of the Savior isn't dependent on a face to face meeting, anyway. In fact HJG would later see the Savior in a vision. I will post his experience shortly.

[LDS Watchman]

Your fundamentalist bias towards the man is clearly showing loud and clear, though.

I never tried to hide it. Of course I have bias. We all have bias. It's likewise undeniable that your mainstream LDS view is showing loud and clear.

The only difference is that mine is actually true--backed up by facts. HJG was a well-known persecutor of polygamists (whilst knowing about the 1886 Revelation and the like). He spent his life trying to put them behind bars. God settled the score by taking Grant three days after the polygamists were locked up.

I'll have some quotes by HBJ for you and the others to chew on shortly. And then I guess we'll see whose perspective is actually true and backed up by facts.

[Luke]

Your fundamentalist bias towards the man is clearly showing loud and clear, though.

I never tried to hide it. Of course I have bias. We all have bias. It's likewise undeniable that your mainstream LDS view is showing loud and clear.

The only difference is that mine is actually true--backed up by facts. HJG was a well-known persecutor of polygamists (whilst knowing about the 1886 Revelation and the like). He spent his life trying to put them behind bars. God settled the score by taking Grant three days after the polygamists were locked up.

I'll have some quotes by HBJ for you and the others to chew on shortly. And then I guess we'll see whose perspective is actually true and backed up by facts.

Bring it on mate

[Reluctant Watchman]

Something I think is interesting with many people still w/in the church, they often believe LDS church leaders with every pronouncement they make. If a leader says they've "seen a vision", members tend to believe it. Sometimes these people make things up or fabricate stories. Sometimes they lie. Go figure.

[LDS Watchman]

Some notable Heber J. Grant quotes about visions, seeing Christ, his own personal feelings of inadequacy, etc.

There are two spirits striving with us always, one telling us to continue our labor for good, and one telling us that with the faults and failings of our nature we are unworthy. I can truthfully say that from October, 1882, until February, 1883, that spirit followed me day and night, telling me that I was unworthy to be an apostle of the Church, and that I ought to resign. When I would testify of my knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the Redeemer of mankind, it seemed as though a voice would say to me: “You lie! You lie! You have never seen Him.”

Heber J. Grant, “Opening Conference Message,” General Conference Address, 4 April 1941

"I was a very unhappy man from October until February. For the next four months whenever I would bear my testimony of the divinity of the Savior, there seemed to be a voice that would say: “You lie, because you have never seen Him.” One of the brethren had made the remark that unless a man had seen the Lamb of God—that was his expression—he was not fit to be an apostle. This feeling that I have mentioned would follow me. I would wake up in the night with the impression: “You do not know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, because you have never seen Him,” and the same feeling would come to me when I would preach and bear testimony. It worried me from October until the following February."

Heber J. Grant, Conference Report (October 1842)

"I seemed to see, and I seemed to hear, what to me is one of the most real things in all my life. I seemed to hear the words that were spoken. I listened to the discussion with a great deal of interest…. In this council the Savior was present, my father was there, and the Prophet Joseph Smith was there…. No man could have been more unhappy than I was from October, 1882, until February, 1883, but from that day I have never been bothered, night or day, with the idea that I was not worthy to stand as an apostle…. I have had joy in… proclaiming my absolute knowledge that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the redeemer of the world…."

Grant, “Opening Conference Message,” Conference Report (April 1941)

"I had this feeling that I ought not to testify any more about the Savior and that, really, I was not fit to be an apostle. It seemed overwhelming to me that I should be one. There was a spirit that said: “If you have not seen the Savior, why don’t you resign your position?”

As I rode along alone, I seemed to see a council in heaven. The Savior was there; the Prophet Joseph was there; my father and others that I knew were there….

I can truthfully say that from February, 1883, until today I have never had any of that trouble, and I Can bear my testimony that I know that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world and that Joseph Smith is a l prophet of the living God; and the evil one does not try to persuade me that I do not know what I am talking about. I have never had one slight impression to the contrary. I have just had real, genuine joy and satisfaction in proclaiming the gospel and bearing my testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and the divine calling of Joseph Smith, the prophet."

Grant, Conference Report (October 1942)

[LDS Watchman]

Something I think is interesting with many people still w/in the church, they often believe LDS church leaders with every pronouncement they make. If a leader says they've "seen a vision", members tend to believe it. Sometimes these people make things up or fabricate stories. Sometimes they lie. Go figure.

How many times have you and your like-minded peeps on this forum insisted that the leaders of the church since Joseph Smith are all false prophets because they don't claim any visions or revelations. But when they do claim these things, you dismiss it as lies.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Something I think is interesting with many people still w/in the church, they often believe LDS church leaders with every pronouncement they make. If a leader says they've "seen a vision", members tend to believe it. Sometimes these people make things up or fabricate stories. Sometimes they lie. Go figure.

See exhibit A

[LDS Watchman]

Something I think is interesting with many people still w/in the church, they often believe LDS church leaders with every pronouncement they make. If a leader says they've "seen a vision", members tend to believe it. Sometimes these people make things up or fabricate stories. Sometimes they lie. Go figure.

See exhibit A

Yeah, nothing to see here. All lies, nothing more. Of course if he wasn't lying, you've got a serious problem on your hands.

[Reluctant Watchman]

[LDS Watchman]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

I doubt we will be presented with a direct quote with a valid source that can be verified by all members of this site. Until that documented quote is found, my Pres. Grant quote stands.

The quotes have now been provided. The one by Luke and I provided several others.

As for your Heber J. Grant quote, I would suggest that he may have been referring to God the Father, not Jesus Christ. He would have been wrong, though, since people other than Joseph Smith also testified that they saw the Father and the Son.

As for the Hinckley quote, I believe he was misquoted.

[Seeker144k]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

I've notice in all of the visions I've heard about that some general authorities have had, they were personal in nature and not related to the direction or instruction of the church. I've always found that interesting. When leaders like David B. Haigh have a vision, it is a big deal to them and they can't wait to tell us, even though it was personal in nature. And, like Elder Haight, he testified that he knew and was a special witness of Christ for years as an apostle and then he had this experience near the end of his life and he said, "now I really know..."

I also know of non-lds who have seen visions of Christ. So you can't say that it is a sign of the true church unless you are looking at the spiritual church and not the physical church.

~Seeker

Now, you're trying to move the goal posts.

I never said that members and leaders having visions was proof positive that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church
All I said was that your claim that the leaders and members are only being led at best by the Holy Ghost is false.
[

You're right. I made a conclusion jump between your statement that some leaders and members have visions and so the church is not only led by the Holy Ghost and assumed you concluded that this means you believe the church is true.

Do you believe the church is false?
Do you believe leaders and members having visions has any bearing on whether the church is true or false?

.And I know with 100% certainty that what you said is false from first hand knowledge.

I said several things. Which part do you know is false?

As for the your remarks about the visions you originally claimed general authorities never have, how could you possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

Actually, I didn't say that no general authorities have visions. I say,

Several of the Prophets/presidents of the Church have admitted that they have never met Christ, even after 24 years of being the Prophet/President of the church. (See quotes in the thread "

Then I backed it up with quotes on another thread.

I did provide this quote from President Hinkley which you seem to have attributed to me.

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

You are challenging President Hinckley and saying that he couldn't possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

He was speaking from his own experience saying that he never did and he wasn't aware of anyone else in the church having visions. He had been an apostle for about 35 years and in the first Presidency for around 14 years when he made that comment.

I agree with you that he was completey wrong. Revelations do come by visions today just as they always have. I also know of church leaders who have had visions, but the visions they have had were personal in nature and not about how to lead the church. I do not know of any leaders who have had visions about their callings or church operations. I do have several quotes from apostles and Presidents of the Church saying that they have never seen Christ nor have a vision of any type and they don't know anyone who has.

Elder Oaks has even taught that they are not witnesses of Christ, they are only witnesses of the name of Christ. I assume he means the power of his name to which I respond,

Matt. 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

~Seeker

[ransomme]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

I've notice in all of the visions I've heard about that some general authorities have had, they were personal in nature and not related to the direction or instruction of the church. I've always found that interesting. When leaders like David B. Haigh have a vision, it is a big deal to them and they can't wait to tell us, even though it was personal in nature. And, like Elder Haight, he testified that he knew and was a special witness of Christ for years as an apostle and then he had this experience near the end of his life and he said, "now I really know..."

I also know of non-lds who have seen visions of Christ. So you can't say that it is a sign of the true church unless you are looking at the spiritual church and not the physical church.

~Seeker

Now, you're trying to move the goal posts.

I never said that members and leaders having visions was proof positive that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church
All I said was that your claim that the leaders and members are only being led at best by the Holy Ghost is false.
[

You're right. I made a conclusion jump between your statement that some leaders and members have visions and so the church is not only led by the Holy Ghost and assumed you concluded that this means you believe the church is true.

Do you believe the church is false?
Do you believe leaders and members having visions has any bearing on whether the church is true or false?

.And I know with 100% certainty that what you said is false from first hand knowledge.

I said several things. Which part do you know is false?

As for the your remarks about the visions you originally claimed general authorities never have, how could you possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

Actually, I didn't say that no general authorities have visions. I say,

Several of the Prophets/presidents of the Church have admitted that they have never met Christ, even after 24 years of being the Prophet/President of the church. (See quotes in the thread "

Then I backed it up with quotes on another thread.

I did provide this quote from President Hinkley which you seem to have attributed to me.

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

You are challenging President Hinckley and saying that he couldn't possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

He was speaking from his own experience saying that he never did and he wasn't aware of anyone else in the church having visions. He had been an apostle for about 35 years and in the first Presidency for around 14 years when he made that comment.

I agree with you that he was completey wrong. Revelations do come by visions today just as they always have. I also know of church leaders who have had visions, but the visions they have had were personal in nature and not about how to lead the church. I do not know of any leaders who have had visions about their callings or church operations. I do have several quotes from apostles and Presidents of the Church saying that they have never seen Christ nor have a vision of any type and they don't know anyone who has.

Elder Oaks has even taught that they are not witnesses of Christ, they are only witnesses of the name of Christ. I assume he means the power of his name to which I respond,

Matt. 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

~Seeker

That Hinkley wow is so damning, like all the similar quotes from the brethren over the long years.

GBH just said that God is not the same yesterday, today and forever.

They simply have no right to claim being special witnesses.

It explains why they are so easily beset by things of the world like GBH and Hofmann, like RMN and COVID, and so on.

[LDS Watchman]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

I've notice in all of the visions I've heard about that some general authorities have had, they were personal in nature and not related to the direction or instruction of the church. I've always found that interesting. When leaders like David B. Haigh have a vision, it is a big deal to them and they can't wait to tell us, even though it was personal in nature. And, like Elder Haight, he testified that he knew and was a special witness of Christ for years as an apostle and then he had this experience near the end of his life and he said, "now I really know..."

I also know of non-lds who have seen visions of Christ. So you can't say that it is a sign of the true church unless you are looking at the spiritual church and not the physical church.

~Seeker

Now, you're trying to move the goal posts.

I never said that members and leaders having visions was proof positive that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church
All I said was that your claim that the leaders and members are only being led at best by the Holy Ghost is false.
[

You're right. I made a conclusion jump between your statement that some leaders and members have visions and so the church is not only led by the Holy Ghost and assumed you concluded that this means you believe the church is true.

Do you believe the church is false?
Do you believe leaders and members having visions has any bearing on whether the church is true or false?

.And I know with 100% certainty that what you said is false from first hand knowledge.

I said several things. Which part do you know is false?

As for the your remarks about the visions you originally claimed general authorities never have, how could you possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

Actually, I didn't say that no general authorities have visions. I say,

Several of the Prophets/presidents of the Church have admitted that they have never met Christ, even after 24 years of being the Prophet/President of the church. (See quotes in the thread "

Then I backed it up with quotes on another thread.

I did provide this quote from President Hinkley which you seem to have attributed to me.

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

You are challenging President Hinckley and saying that he couldn't possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

He was speaking from his own experience saying that he never did and he wasn't aware of anyone else in the church having visions. He had been an apostle for about 35 years and in the first Presidency for around 14 years when he made that comment.

I agree with you that he was completey wrong. Revelations do come by visions today just as they always have. I also know of church leaders who have had visions, but the visions they have had were personal in nature and not about how to lead the church. I do not know of any leaders who have had visions about their callings or church operations. I do have several quotes from apostles and Presidents of the Church saying that they have never seen Christ nor have a vision of any type and they don't know anyone who has.

Elder Oaks has even taught that they are not witnesses of Christ, they are only witnesses of the name of Christ. I assume he means the power of his name to which I respond,

Matt. 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

~Seeker

Yes, I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's one true church.

Yes, I believe that visions are to be expected within the Lord's one true church.

No, I wasn't using the fact that I know people within the church to have had visions as proof that the church is true. I'm fully aware that one doesn't have to be a member of the Lord's church to have a vision.

Since I know people who have had visions in the church, I know that your claim that the church is at best guided by the Holy Ghost is false.

As for the Hinckley "quote," I believe that the first part of the "quote" where is says "Revelation no longer comes by vision" is the author of the articles interpretation of what he said. I suspect that Hinckley was asked if continuing revelation comes by vision, to which Hinckley responded that it comes by the Holy Ghost, and then the author of the article interpreted his answer to mean that revelation no.longer comes by vision, only by the Holy Ghost. But there's an easy way to find out. Do you have a transcript or video recording of the interview where we can see the original question and answer?

I can also provide many examples of the brethren having had visions, including seeing Christ, since the death of Joseph Smith.

On a side note, I can also show that you are in error about your claims regarded the elders of the church not being called to preach the everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, who the 144K are, the growth and destiny of the church, and the role of baptism and the laying on of hands in relationship to the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire using the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith.

But one thing at a time. I will wait for you to provide the actual question and answer from your Hinckley proof text and we'll go from there.

[LDS Watchman]

I've notice in all of the visions I've heard about that some general authorities have had, they were personal in nature and not related to the direction or instruction of the church. I've always found that interesting. When leaders like David B. Haigh have a vision, it is a big deal to them and they can't wait to tell us, even though it was personal in nature. And, like Elder Haight, he testified that he knew and was a special witness of Christ for years as an apostle and then he had this experience near the end of his life and he said, "now I really know..."

I also know of non-lds who have seen visions of Christ. So you can't say that it is a sign of the true church unless you are looking at the spiritual church and not the physical church.

~Seeker

Now, you're trying to move the goal posts.

I never said that members and leaders having visions was proof positive that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church
All I said was that your claim that the leaders and members are only being led at best by the Holy Ghost is false.
[

You're right. I made a conclusion jump between your statement that some leaders and members have visions and so the church is not only led by the Holy Ghost and assumed you concluded that this means you believe the church is true.

Do you believe the church is false?
Do you believe leaders and members having visions has any bearing on whether the church is true or false?

.And I know with 100% certainty that what you said is false from first hand knowledge.

I said several things. Which part do you know is false?

As for the your remarks about the visions you originally claimed general authorities never have, how could you possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

Actually, I didn't say that no general authorities have visions. I say,

Several of the Prophets/presidents of the Church have admitted that they have never met Christ, even after 24 years of being the Prophet/President of the church. (See quotes in the thread "

Then I backed it up with quotes on another thread.

I did provide this quote from President Hinkley which you seem to have attributed to me.

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

You are challenging President Hinckley and saying that he couldn't possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?

He was speaking from his own experience saying that he never did and he wasn't aware of anyone else in the church having visions. He had been an apostle for about 35 years and in the first Presidency for around 14 years when he made that comment.

I agree with you that he was completey wrong. Revelations do come by visions today just as they always have. I also know of church leaders who have had visions, but the visions they have had were personal in nature and not about how to lead the church. I do not know of any leaders who have had visions about their callings or church operations. I do have several quotes from apostles and Presidents of the Church saying that they have never seen Christ nor have a vision of any type and they don't know anyone who has.

Elder Oaks has even taught that they are not witnesses of Christ, they are only witnesses of the name of Christ. I assume he means the power of his name to which I respond,

Matt. 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

~Seeker

That Hinkley wow is so damning, like all the similar quotes from the brethren over the long years.

GBH just said that God is not the same yesterday, today and forever.

They simply have no right to claim being special witnesses.

It explains why they are so easily beset by things of the world like GBH and Hofmann, like RMN and COVID, and so on.

Until we see the transcript of the Hinckley "quote" with the actual question and answer, this proof text isn’t legit as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm not aware of ANY similar statements by the brethren. So I'm sure what you're referring to.

[Reluctant Watchman]

General comment here. The idea of wether or not the LDS church is “Christ’s church” really is simply. Does the church teach Christ’s doctrine correctly? Same principle applies to “keys and authority.” Keys and authority are only valid upon righteousness. If corruption or wickedness enters the church (specifically the leadership), then the validity of any claim is negated. I don’t care how people want to interpret the BoM, D&C, or any other pronouncement from a supposed “anointed” leader. It doesn’t matter. Wether there is corrupt doctrine or wickedness is really all we need to analyze.

[Gadianton Slayer]

General comment here. The idea of wether or not the LDS church is “Christ’s church” really is simply. Does the church teach Christ’s doctrine correctly? Same principle applies to “keys and authority.” Keys and authority are only valid upon righteousness. If corruption or wickedness enters the church (specifically the leadership), then the validity of any claim is negated. I don’t care how people want to interpret the BoM, D&C, or any other pronouncement from a supposed “anointed” leader. It doesn’t matter. Wether there is corrupt doctrine or wickedness is really all we need to analyze.

The fact that you are required to "sustain" leaders in order to be baptized proves that they have altered Christ's original doctrine... which He taught about, saying that anything "more or less than this" was not of Him.

If you disagree that this contradicts Christ, then find me a single instance in the BoM where someone was required to acknowledge or "sustain" a man in order to be baptized.

[LDS Watchman]

General comment here. The idea of wether or not the LDS church is “Christ’s church” really is simply. Does the church teach Christ’s doctrine correctly? Same principle applies to “keys and authority.” Keys and authority are only valid upon righteousness. If corruption or wickedness enters the church (specifically the leadership), then the validity of any claim is negated. I don’t care how people want to interpret the BoM, D&C, or any other pronouncement from a supposed “anointed” leader. It doesn’t matter. Wether there is corrupt doctrine or wickedness is really all we need to analyze.

This is simply not true. Leader and members of the church have always had personal weaknesses made mistakes from day one, including teaching false things sometimes. This doesn't invalidate the truthfulness of the church.

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.
25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;
26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;
27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;
28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.
29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
(D&C 1)

[Reluctant Watchman]

General comment here. The idea of wether or not the LDS church is “Christ’s church” really is simply. Does the church teach Christ’s doctrine correctly? Same principle applies to “keys and authority.” Keys and authority are only valid upon righteousness. If corruption or wickedness enters the church (specifically the leadership), then the validity of any claim is negated. I don’t care how people want to interpret the BoM, D&C, or any other pronouncement from a supposed “anointed” leader. It doesn’t matter. Wether there is corrupt doctrine or wickedness is really all we need to analyze.

See exhibit C

D & C actually...

[LDS Watchman]

General comment here. The idea of wether or not the LDS church is “Christ’s church” really is simply. Does the church teach Christ’s doctrine correctly? Same principle applies to “keys and authority.” Keys and authority are only valid upon righteousness. If corruption or wickedness enters the church (specifically the leadership), then the validity of any claim is negated. I don’t care how people want to interpret the BoM, D&C, or any other pronouncement from a supposed “anointed” leader. It doesn’t matter. Wether there is corrupt doctrine or wickedness is really all we need to analyze.

The fact that you are required to "sustain" leaders in order to be baptized proves that they have altered Christ's original doctrine... which He taught about, saying that anything "more or less than this" was not of Him.

If you disagree that this contradicts Christ, then find me a single instance in the BoM where someone was required to acknowledge or "sustain" a man in order to be baptized.

Your "question" has been answered several times in the past. It's about acknowledging that the authority to administer the ordinances is valid. But you just reject every answer you don't like, so why are you trying to beat this dead horse again?