3 Nephi 21 disproves claims to Christ's church

[LDS Watchman]

But He is not directing the leaders of the Church and has not been doing so for quite a long time.

This is simply not true. Things aren't black and white like this.

I have seen first hand how God has directed leaders of the church many times throughout my life. I can testify that God has not completely abandoned the church or it's leaders, nor will he. God is still at the helm and will remain so.

I didn’t say that they were in the dark and incapable of receiving revelation.

But compared to how things were done in Joseph’s day, it’s chalk and cheese. The Lord has become less familiar in consequence of abandoning certain laws, ordinances and truths.

No, you made a blanket statement that God is only in control in some abstract sense and isn't directing the leaders of the church. I know from personal experience that your claim is false.

Jesus Christ is 100% still at the head of his church and in control. It's no different than ancient Israel. God didn't just walk away and turn his back on his people because there was some wild fruit on the tree. He continued to labor with them.

I disagree that it can be said that God is at the helm of any other religion or government in a similar way that he as at the helm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While of course all of creation is in the hands of the Almighty, in these the last days he has declared that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. He has also declared that the keys have been restored to his church for the last time and won't be taken away again.

Whatever problems or deficiencies exist among the members and leaders of the church doesn't change what God has decreed.

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

[Seeker144k]

But he was equally aware that the establishment of the Lord's church would continue and could not be stopped until it had filled the whole earth.

From what I know there are three instances where "filling the whole earth" is referenced, and none are about His church. D&C 65:2 states that the *gospel* will roll forth, which isn't the church. Both D&C 109:72 and Daniel 2 reference a stone (the kingdom of God) that will roll forth. Joseph made a clear distinction between the church and kingdom, specifically saying that the kingdom Daniel saw was not the church:

“There is a distinction between the church of God and the kingdom of God. The laws of the kingdom are not designed to affect our salvation hereafter. It is an entire, distinct, and separate government. The church is a spiritual matter and a spiritual kingdom; but the kingdom which Daniel saw was not a spiritual kingdom (was NOT the church), but was designed to be got up for the safety and salvation of the Saints by protecting them in their religious rights and worship. Anything that would tolerate man in the worship of his God under his own vine and fig tree would be tolerated of God.” (Council of Fifty, vol. 1, pp. [201]-[203])

I think you're forgetting a few things.

1) What is the vehicle for administering the ordinances that are part of the everlasting gospel?

Answer: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Remember that the church Jesus Christ and John the Baptist were born into was corrupt when they were born. It also didn't have the Melchizedek Priesthood required to lay hands on to give the Holy Ghost. And yet, Simeon and Anna both had the spirit, recognized Jesus by the spirit and prophesied by the spirit. Also, all the Holy Prophets from Moses to Christ had the Melchizedek priesthood even though it was taken from the people. Great prophets like Elijah and Elisha and Nephi even had the sealing power when it wasn't given to the public. God doesn't require ordinances to do His work. In the scriptures, there are more examples of people receiving the remission of sins without baptism, the baptism of fire without the laying on of hands, etc. In fact, the Lord commands the church today to not baptize anyone who has not already "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins". (See D&C 20:37) So we are commanded by the Lord to receive the remission of our sins and show it by our works before was re baptized into the church. This is in line with how they baptized in the Book of Mormon as detailed in 3 Nephi 7:25.

The ordinances are to manifest, (make visible to the eye and mind), the power of God, not enact the power of God. The power of God does not require ordinances. But you can't see someone receive the remission of sins, so we baptize them as an outward sign to manifest the spiritual reality. You can't see someone receive the Holy Ghost, so we lay hands on them and tell them to. (See D&C 84:20-21)

2) Who is called to preach the everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth?

Answer: The Elders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I'm willing to bet that few of the Elders even know what the fulness of the Gospel is.
Also, the 144,000 who are ordained by angels are sent to preach the everlasting Gospel to the world and bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn. Few Elders even know what the Church of the Firstborn is.

D&C 77
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

3) While I'm not disputing what Joseph supposedly said on one occasion in the secret council of 50 meeting, it's a fact that he most certainly did equate the last days kingdom of God which would fill the whole earth with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The church is shrinking, not growing. The problem is that it is not a righteous system. People would not in their right mind chose to be governed by it in stead of a constitutional government. The reason the stone grows without hands is because people see that it is a system that will protect them and their rights and their sovereignty. (see D&C 134) The church does not do this.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

I've notice in all of the visions I've heard about that some general authorities have had, they were personal in nature and not related to the direction or instruction of the church. I've always found that interesting. When leaders like David B. Haigh have a vision, it is a big deal to them and they can't wait to tell us, even though it was personal in nature. And, like Elder Haight, he testified that he knew and was a special witness of Christ for years as an apostle and then he had this experience near the end of his life and he said, "now I really know..."

I also know of non-lds who have seen visions of Christ. So you can't say that it is a sign of the true church unless you are looking at the spiritual church and not the physical church.

~Seeker

[Shawn Henry]

he has declared that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. He has also declared that the keys have been restored to his church for the last time and won't be taken away again.

Yes, "has declared", past tense. It was true and living, but just as every other time throughout history apostacy has set in. The keys of the kingdom were given to Joseph, Frederick, and Sidney and they were told they would hold them in this world and the world to come, so when they return, the keys return with them. The leadership keys of the kingdom are gone, but the 12 still have the keys to take the gospel message to the ends of the earth, even though those keys are being misused by pawning off their responsibility to 18 yr olds.

The adulterous bride of Christ is still the bride of Christ, even though their leaders won't listen and are dumb dogs that refuse to bark. The proof is in the pudding, there's no way the Savior would tell his prophet to kill and maim his own sheep with the vaccine.

[LDS Watchman]

But he was equally aware that the establishment of the Lord's church would continue and could not be stopped until it had filled the whole earth.

From what I know there are three instances where "filling the whole earth" is referenced, and none are about His church. D&C 65:2 states that the *gospel* will roll forth, which isn't the church. Both D&C 109:72 and Daniel 2 reference a stone (the kingdom of God) that will roll forth. Joseph made a clear distinction between the church and kingdom, specifically saying that the kingdom Daniel saw was not the church:

“There is a distinction between the church of God and the kingdom of God. The laws of the kingdom are not designed to affect our salvation hereafter. It is an entire, distinct, and separate government. The church is a spiritual matter and a spiritual kingdom; but the kingdom which Daniel saw was not a spiritual kingdom (was NOT the church), but was designed to be got up for the safety and salvation of the Saints by protecting them in their religious rights and worship. Anything that would tolerate man in the worship of his God under his own vine and fig tree would be tolerated of God.” (Council of Fifty, vol. 1, pp. [201]-[203])

I think you're forgetting a few things.

1) What is the vehicle for administering the ordinances that are part of the everlasting gospel?

Answer: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Remember that the church Jesus Christ and John the Baptist were born into was corrupt when they were born. It also didn't have the Melchizedek Priesthood required to lay hands on to give the Holy Ghost. And yet, Simeon and Anna both had the spirit, recognized Jesus by the spirit and prophesied by the spirit. Also, all the Holy Prophets from Moses to Christ had the Melchizedek priesthood even though it was taken from the people. Great prophets like Elijah and Elisha and Nephi even had the sealing power when it wasn't given to the public. God doesn't require ordinances to do His work. In the scriptures, there are more examples of people receiving the remission of sins without baptism, the baptism of fire without the laying on of hands, etc. In fact, the Lord commands the church today to not baptize anyone who has not already "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins". (See D&C 20:37) So we are commanded by the Lord to receive the remission of our sins and show it by our works before was re baptized into the church. This is in line with how they baptized in the Book of Mormon as detailed in 3 Nephi 7:25.

The ordinances are to manifest, (make visible to the eye and mind), the power of God, not enact the power of God. The power of God does not require ordinances. But you can't see someone receive the remission of sins, so we baptize them as an outward sign to manifest the spiritual reality. You can't see someone receive the Holy Ghost, so we lay hands on them and tell them to. (See D&C 84:20-21)

2) Who is called to preach the everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth?

Answer: The Elders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I'm willing to bet that few of the Elders even know what the fulness of the Gospel is.
Also, the 144,000 who are ordained by angels are sent to preach the everlasting Gospel to the world and bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn. Few Elders even know what the Church of the Firstborn is.

D&C 77
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

3) While I'm not disputing what Joseph supposedly said on one occasion in the secret council of 50 meeting, it's a fact that he most certainly did equate the last days kingdom of God which would fill the whole earth with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The church is shrinking, not growing. The problem is that it is not a righteous system. People would not in their right mind chose to be governed by it in stead of a constitutional government. The reason the stone grows without hands is because people see that it is a system that will protect them and their rights and their sovereignty. (see D&C 134) The church does not do this.

~Seeker

The majority of what you are claiming here is not in harmony with what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say about the subject.

[HereWeGo]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

Apparently, you and a couple of Church Presidents (Prophets) disagree:

“I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” (Heber J. Grant to Mrs. Claud Peery, 13 April 1926, found in First Presidency letterbooks, vol. 72; cited by Quinn D. Michael. Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997, at p. 4. Also found in Lester Bush papers, University of Utah Archives.)

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

[LDS Watchman]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

Apparently, you and a couple of Church Presidents (Prophets) disagree:

“I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” (Heber J. Grant to Mrs. Claud Peery, 13 April 1926, found in First Presidency letterbooks, vol. 72; cited by Quinn D. Michael. Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997, at p. 4. Also found in Lester Bush papers, University of Utah Archives.)

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

Neither of these quotes contradict what I said. And both are likely dubious or taken out of context.

[HereWeGo]

I find it interesting that when a person who is not open minded is presented with quotes and the means to look them up himself, the person seems refers to call them dubious or taken out of context.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I find it interesting that when a person who is not open minded is presented with quotes and the means to look them up himself, the person seems to resort to calling them dubious or taken out of context.

That’s his go-to red herring…

“iTs OuT oF cOnTeXt!”

Ok, prove it.

[LDS Watchman]

he has declared that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. He has also declared that the keys have been restored to his church for the last time and won't be taken away again.

Yes, "has declared", past tense. It was true and living, but just as every other time throughout history apostacy has set in. The keys of the kingdom were given to Joseph, Frederick, and Sidney and they were told they would hold them in this world and the world to come, so when they return, the keys return with them. The leadership keys of the kingdom are gone, but the 12 still have the keys to take the gospel message to the ends of the earth, even though those keys are being misused by pawning off their responsibility to 18 yr olds.

The adulterous bride of Christ is still the bride of Christ, even though their leaders won't listen and are dumb dogs that refuse to bark. The proof is in the pudding, there's no way the Savior would tell his prophet to kill and maim his own sheep with the vaccine.

Well of the church is in fact the adulterous bride of Christ, then as you just admitted, she is still his. And I suggest that you read up on what the destiny of the adulterous bride is. And while you're at it, I suggest you read what the destiny of the Lord's church is on JST Revelation 12. The Lord drove his church into the wilderness so Satan wouldn't be able to destroy it. But in the end the church will still bring forth the Kingdom of God Daniel saw.

As for keys, the 12 apostles were given more keys than you claim. Joseph gave them all of the necessary keys to keep the work going after his death.

And finally, the outcry and mass apostasy over RMN's statements regarding the vaccine are no different than the outcry and mass apostasy over the failure or the Kirtland Safety Society, the Saints being killed, raped, and driven from Missouri, the Manifesto, or a host of other things people decided proved that the church or it's leaders had now gone completely astray over the years.

History just keeps on repeating itself.

[HereWeGo]

Here's how the current PSRs get their testimony and inspiration. Hopefully it is not deemed as dubious or taken out of context:

Elder Oaks - youth fireside 1/23/16 in WA https://youtu.be/GrMJ2YZD62M

Question from Heather: What should we pray for to receive the same testimony, if not conversion, that Alma the Younger experienced for our friends that aren’t (inaudible)?
Answer from Oaks: What should you pray for to have the kind of experience that Alma the Younger had? I don’t think you’re likely to have the kind of experience that Alma the Younger had. Remember that he had a miraculous appearance of an angel and really got hit over the head spiritually. Most of us don’t have that kind of experience. But I interpret your question, Heather, as being how can we get the kind of testimony that he rec’d? I don’t think we’ll get it like Paul did on the road to where the angel appeared to him or where Alma the Younger had that startling experience. The Lord gives a few of those kinds of experiences and they are recorded in the Scriptures to catch our attention and teach us the answer, but I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the first presidency or Quorum of the 12 who have had that kind of experience, yet every one of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew. But it’s just that, unless the Lord chooses to do another way, which He sometimes does, for millions and millions of his children, a testimony settles upon us gradually like so much dust on a windowsill (inaudible). One day you didn’t have it and another day you did and you don’t know which day it happened. That’s the way I got my testimony, and then I knew it was true and it continued to grow, and what you have to do to get that is first of all to desire it.

[LDS Watchman]

I find it interesting that when a person who is not open minded is presented with quotes and the means to look them up himself, the person seems refers to call them dubious or taken out of context.

I find it interesting that you always accuse me and anyone else who disagrees with you of not being open minded. These types of personal attacks are really rather childish. But I suppose it's no more childish than certain scoffers who shall remain nameless butting into conversations to cheer one side on and heckle the other. But it is what it is.

You obviously don't know what Heber J. Grant said on the subject very well. I don't have the quotes handy at the moment, but he stated that he knew apostles who had seen Jesus Christ and then apostatized and was reluctant to have this experience himself out of fear that it might happen to him.

He also said that for sometime after being called as an apostle, he felt like he was lying by claiming to be a special witness of Christ, because he hadn't seen him. But then without saying how he received his assurance, he no longer had that hesitation.

As for Hinckley, he did say that revelation comes through the still small voice, but I can guarantee you that he most certainly did NOT say that visions don't happen anymore. That's obviously the author of that article's spin of what Hinckley said.

And as I said, neither of these alleged statements contradict what I said. I personally know leaders and ordinary members of the church who have had visions. And nothing you or anyone else claims will change what I know.

[LDS Watchman]

Here's how the current PSRs get their testimony and inspiration. Hopefully it is not deemed as dubious or taken out of context:

Elder Oaks - youth fireside 1/23/16 in WA https://youtu.be/GrMJ2YZD62M

Question from Heather: What should we pray for to receive the same testimony, if not conversion, that Alma the Younger experienced for our friends that aren’t (inaudible)?
Answer from Oaks: What should you pray for to have the kind of experience that Alma the Younger had? I don’t think you’re likely to have the kind of experience that Alma the Younger had. Remember that he had a miraculous appearance of an angel and really got hit over the head spiritually. Most of us don’t have that kind of experience. But I interpret your question, Heather, as being how can we get the kind of testimony that he rec’d? I don’t think we’ll get it like Paul did on the road to where the angel appeared to him or where Alma the Younger had that startling experience. The Lord gives a few of those kinds of experiences and they are recorded in the Scriptures to catch our attention and teach us the answer, but I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the first presidency or Quorum of the 12 who have had that kind of experience, yet every one of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew. But it’s just that, unless the Lord chooses to do another way, which He sometimes does, for millions and millions of his children, a testimony settles upon us gradually like so much dust on a windowsill (inaudible). One day you didn’t have it and another day you did and you don’t know which day it happened. That’s the way I got my testimony, and then I knew it was true and it continued to grow, and what you have to do to get that is first of all to desire it.

This quote isn't dubious or taken out of context, but it most definitely doesn't support your claim one bit either.

[HereWeGo]

I find it interesting that you always accuse me and anyone else who disagrees with you of not being open minded. These types of personal attacks are really rather childish. But I suppose it's no more childish than certain scoffers who shall remain nameless butting into conversations to cheer one side on and heckle the other. But it is what it is.

You obviously don't know what Heber J. Grant said on the subject very well. I don't have the quotes handy at the moment, but he stated that he knew apostles who had seen Jesus Christ and then apostatized and was reluctant to have this experience himself out of fear that it might happen to him.

He also said that for sometime after being called as an apostle, he felt like he was lying by claiming to be a special witness of Christ, because he hadn't seen him. But then without saying how he received his assurance, he no longer had that hesitation.

As for Hinckley, he did say that revelation comes through the still small voice, but I can guarantee you that he most certainly did NOT say that visions don't happen anymore. That's obviously the author of that article's spin of what Hinckley said.

And as I said, neither of these alleged statements contradict what I said. I personally know leaders and ordinary members of the church who have had visions. And nothing you or anyone else claims will change what I know.

I didn't use your name or call you out personally. You are only one of a number of people who do this. This is a general statement of some debate tactics used here. Apparently you feel that this is something that you do.

If the shoe fits.........

[HereWeGo]

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

[Gadianton Slayer]

I don't have the quotes handy at the moment, but he stated that he knew apostles who had seen Jesus Christ and then apostatized and was reluctant to have this experience himself out of fear that it might happen to him.

Let me get this straight… they saw Christ and left He was so afraid of leaving this organization that he didn’t want to see Christ for himself… do you think he ever thought that someone who SAW Christ would have a good reason for “apostatizing”???

Lol. I’m not going to argue or continue this, just gonna leave that there.

[Gadianton Slayer]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

[LDS Watchman]

I find it interesting that you always accuse me and anyone else who disagrees with you of not being open minded. These types of personal attacks are really rather childish. But I suppose it's no more childish than certain scoffers who shall remain nameless butting into conversations to cheer one side on and heckle the other. But it is what it is.

You obviously don't know what Heber J. Grant said on the subject very well. I don't have the quotes handy at the moment, but he stated that he knew apostles who had seen Jesus Christ and then apostatized and was reluctant to have this experience himself out of fear that it might happen to him.

He also said that for sometime after being called as an apostle, he felt like he was lying by claiming to be a special witness of Christ, because he hadn't seen him. But then without saying how he received his assurance, he no longer had that hesitation.

As for Hinckley, he did say that revelation comes through the still small voice, but I can guarantee you that he most certainly did NOT say that visions don't happen anymore. That's obviously the author of that article's spin of what Hinckley said.

And as I said, neither of these alleged statements contradict what I said. I personally know leaders and ordinary members of the church who have had visions. And nothing you or anyone else claims will change what I know.

I didn't use your name or call you out personally. You are only one of a number of people who do this. This is a general statement of some debate tactics used here. Apparently you feel that this is something that you do.

If the shoe fits.........

I'm calling BS on that. You were clearly referring to me specifically and accusing me of not being open minded (you quoted me after all) and this isn't the first time either.

The honest and decent thing to do at this point is to own up to what you did instead of playing games. But you've used this same tactic over and over again so many times now, that I'm not holding my breath.

[HereWeGo]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

I doubt we will be presented with a direct quote with a valid source that can be verified by all members of this site. Until that documented quote is found, my Pres. Grant quote stands.

[LDS Watchman]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

Well since you're going off of me paraphrasing what I remember him saying, without actually looking at the original source, this is really silly.

I would suggest that, if my memory serves me and I have the quote pretty much correct, that he was afraid of Satan coming after him and destroying him if he had such an experience. Which I think is understandable. The greater the light, the greater the opposition.

But whatever, to you it's a dead horse remember. In the end you don't give a rat's *** what I or anyone else says. You're mind is made up. And in my case, you're clearly just looking to catch me in my words so you can mock me. You've demonstrated that repeatedly.

[Gadianton Slayer]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

Well since you're going off of me paraphrasing what I remember him saying, without actually looking at the original source, this is really silly.

I would suggest that, if my memory serves me and I have the quote pretty much correct, that he was afraid of Satan coming after him and destroying him if he had such an experience. Which I think is understandable. The greater the light, the greater the opposition.

But whatever, to you it's a dead horse remember. In the end you don't give a rat's *** what I or anyone else says. You're mind is made up. And in my case, you're clearly just looking to catch me in my words so you can mock me. You've demonstrated that repeatedly.

Seeing Christ is a pretty pathetic thing to be afraid of for someone who claims to speak for Him, no matter how you justify it. Adieu.

[LDS Watchman]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

Well since you're going off of me paraphrasing what I remember him saying, without actually looking at the original source, this is really silly.

I would suggest that, if my memory serves me and I have the quote pretty much correct, that he was afraid of Satan coming after him and destroying him if he had such an experience. Which I think is understandable. The greater the light, the greater the opposition.

But whatever, to you it's a dead horse remember. In the end you don't give a rat's *** what I or anyone else says. You're mind is made up. And in my case, you're clearly just looking to catch me in my words so you can mock me. You've demonstrated that repeatedly.

Seeing Christ is a pretty pathetic thing to be afraid of for someone who claims to speak for Him, no matter how you justify it. Adieu.

There's evidence that Heber J. Grant suffered from anxiety sometimes. But I'm sure that's pathetic to you, too. Adios.

[Luke]

“I’m afraid of seeing Jesus because it might make me leave my comfy seat here in this fabulous corporation.”

- Heber Grant (summarized)

Well since you're going off of me paraphrasing what I remember him saying, without actually looking at the original source, this is really silly.

I would suggest that, if my memory serves me and I have the quote pretty much correct, that he was afraid of Satan coming after him and destroying him if he had such an experience. Which I think is understandable. The greater the light, the greater the opposition.

But whatever, to you it's a dead horse remember. In the end you don't give a rat's *** what I or anyone else says. You're mind is made up. And in my case, you're clearly just looking to catch me in my words so you can mock me. You've demonstrated that repeatedly.

Seeing Christ is a pretty pathetic thing to be afraid of for someone who claims to speak for Him, no matter how you justify it. Adieu.

There's evidence that Heber J. Grant suffered from anxiety sometimes. But I'm sure that's pathetic to you, too. Adios.

Sorry Matthias but that's simply not good enough.

[LDS Watchman]

Well since you're going off of me paraphrasing what I remember him saying, without actually looking at the original source, this is really silly.

I would suggest that, if my memory serves me and I have the quote pretty much correct, that he was afraid of Satan coming after him and destroying him if he had such an experience. Which I think is understandable. The greater the light, the greater the opposition.

But whatever, to you it's a dead horse remember. In the end you don't give a rat's *** what I or anyone else says. You're mind is made up. And in my case, you're clearly just looking to catch me in my words so you can mock me. You've demonstrated that repeatedly.

Seeing Christ is a pretty pathetic thing to be afraid of for someone who claims to speak for Him, no matter how you justify it. Adieu.

There's evidence that Heber J. Grant suffered from anxiety sometimes. But I'm sure that's pathetic to you, too. Adios.

Sorry Matthias but that's simply not good enough.

It didn't say it was. People aren't perfect, and that includes servants of God. Mocking people for their weaknesses is what's truly pathetic.

And I would appreciate it if you didn't refer to may by that name anymore.

[LDS Watchman]

I will also add that I personally know of leaders and general members of the church who have seen visions. So the church is not just being led by the Holy Ghost.

I've notice in all of the visions I've heard about that some general authorities have had, they were personal in nature and not related to the direction or instruction of the church. I've always found that interesting. When leaders like David B. Haigh have a vision, it is a big deal to them and they can't wait to tell us, even though it was personal in nature. And, like Elder Haight, he testified that he knew and was a special witness of Christ for years as an apostle and then he had this experience near the end of his life and he said, "now I really know..."

I also know of non-lds who have seen visions of Christ. So you can't say that it is a sign of the true church unless you are looking at the spiritual church and not the physical church.

~Seeker

Now, you're trying to move the goal posts.

I never said that members and leaders having visions was proof positive that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church. All I said was that your claim that the leaders and members are only being led at best by the Holy Ghost is false. And I know with 100% certainty that what you said is false from first hand knowledge.

As for the your remarks about the visions you originally claimed general authorities never have, how could you possibly know whether or not any of them have visions and other experiences that they don't share publicly?