LDS Freedom Forum

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:41 am I'm still working on it. But to be honest, I'm in no hurry, because I know that they will just be rejected out of hand by those with an ax to grind against the church.

Please provide the transcript for your Hinckley proof text "quote" so we can verify it's accuracy.

President Hinckley was asked this many times in the hundreds of interviews he had. Every time he said about the same thing. Here is an example of what he said,

RB: As the world leader of the the Church, how are you in touch with God? Can you explain that for me?

GBH: I pray. I pray to Him. Night and morning. I speak with Him. I think He hears my prayers. As He hears the prayers of others. I think He answers them.

RB: But more than that, because you’re leader of the Church. Do you have a special connection?

GBH: I have a special relationship in terms of the Church as an institution. Yes.

RB: And you receive........

GBH: For the entire Church.

RB: You receive?

GBH: Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.

RB: And this is a Revelation?

GBH: This is a Revelation.

RB: How often have you received such revelations?

GBH: Oh, I don’t know. I feel satisfied that in some circumstances we’ve had such revelation. It’s a very sacred thing that we don’t like to talk about a lot. A very sacred thing.

Q: But it’s a special experience?

GBH: I think it’s a real thing. It’s a very real thing. And a special experience.
- http://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is exactly how the church anciently was run after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Acts 1:1-2 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The church apostles and prophet today are led exactly the same way. Look at every major decision they have made over the years. Why are we arguing this point?

~Seeker

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:42 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:07 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 9:59 pm Are the members of a ward members of the church? Yes or no?

Of course they are

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

So the bishop is the leader of the members of the church in his ward. When the Bishop receives a vision related to his calling or if any member receives a vision, then they are being led by visions. Which means that the church (body of Christ) is being led by visions.

As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well.

So, yes, the church is most definitely being led at least in part by visions.

You actually do have a point here. In the scriptures, the Lord didn't use the lines of authority the way we do now. He went to the lay members directly with his visions and revelations and called them directly to be prophets, bypassing the Church leadership entirely, even when they were righteous. That's how he led people in the scriptures. Here's a few examples:

How Amos was Called to be a prophet:

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. – Amos 3:7

Amos was one of these prophets who was called by God to prophesy to the people. By studying Amos, we can learn a number of important points regarding how the Lord calls prophets. Once we see how the Lord called Amos, we can see that he follows the same pattern throughout the scriptures as he calls other prophets.

Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son. He had no claim to authority or leadership among the Children of Israel. God called him while he was a shepherd. He was called by revelation from the Lord directly, not from a man, church or set of men.

14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel. – Amos 7:14-15

He was called to prophesy to a group of people he had no authority over until this moment when God called him directly and gave him authority.

Now that we see how the Lord calls prophets, let's look at an example where the church is organized and led by a righteous prophet who was present. Notice that the Lord ignored the line of authority entirely and created His own line directly to Samuel.

How Samuel was called to be a prophet:
Samuel was working for a righteous High priest named Eli who prophesied to his mother that even though she was barren, she would be blessed with a child. Samuel was the child Eli prophesied she would have. When he was about 11 years old the Lord called to him. It is notable that while Eli was a righteous high priest, and a proven prophet, the Lord did not call Samuel through Eli rather the Lord called to Samuel directly. In fact, Eli wasn't even informed about what the Lord was doing before hand. Teh Lord called to Samuel 3 times before Eli figured out what was happening and instructed Samuel to respond to the Lord and believed all that the Lord said to Samuel.

7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.
…
8 And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child.
9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
11 ¶ And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
…
18 And Samuel told him (Eli) every whit, and hid nothing from him. And he said, It is the Lord: let him do what seemeth him good.
19 ¶ And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beer-sheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord. – 1 Samuel 3:7-20

Notice that again, Eli had authority over Israel as the High priest. Samuel was 11 years old and had not been given authority over the church until the Lord spoke to him and gave him the revelation about what He was going to do to Israel. At that moment he gained authority over Israel, not from the church, but from God.

Here's another example from the Book of Mormon.

How Lehi was called to be a prophet:
Lehi lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jeremiah when many prophets had been called of God. He was influenced by these prophets and prayed to God on behalf of the people. His prayer resulted in a series of visions in which he saw God and understood the Lords judgments against Jerusalem. As a result of these visions, Lehi was called by God to prophesy with all the other prophets. God led his people through the visions to Lehi and not through Jeremiah's father, Hilkiah, who was a righteous man and the High priest over the church.

18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. – 1 Nephi 1:18

It important to note that even though Jeremiah’s father Hilkiah was the High Priest over the church and a righteous man, he did not call his son Jeremiah, Lehi or any of the other prophets of his day. Each of them was called by God directly, independent of the priesthood and church organization.

Other prophets that were called by God directly via vision or the voice of the lord and not through the organized leadership of the church include: Moses, Ezekiel, Joseph of Egypt, Noah, Jonah, Zephaniah, Hosea, Joel, Zechariah, Haggi, Habakkuk, Nahum, Obadiah, Anna, Alma, King Benjamin, Samuel the Lamanite, Amulek (though he could have been called after his vision), etc.

So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

Fantastic post. Thank you!

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 12:03 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:49 am

Is the fact that President Oaks said that he received his testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost, instead of being converted by a miraculous vision from being a vile sinner who was trying to destroy the church of God to being Saint in an instant, supposed to be some kind of smoking gun? Because it isn't.

I don't think this makes him a vile sinner. Here's what it means... and I want to show you a few real examples so you can see it.

Faith is to believe something you haven't seen or experienced. Knowledge is to have experienced or see something for yourself. The Brother of Jared talked with the Lord through the veil many times, but it wasn't until after he saw the Lord that his faith was turned to knowledge.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
...
19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him." - Ether 3:13, 19-20

In this verse we see that being brought back into the Lord's presence means to be redeemed from the fall and at that point, we gain knowledge. Prior to seeing the Lord we have faith in Him and the Plan of Salvation as we understand it, not knowledge. Having faith means we believe we know the path and are testing that belief to see if it is accurate.

As an example of the difference between a testimony of Christ born of the spirit and the knowledge of Christ through vision, we can look to the experiences of Apostle David B. Haight. Elder Haight was called to be an Apostle January 8, 1976. He had a testimony of Christ through the spirit but was not a witness of Christ by firsthand experience. Ignorant to the power of a first-hand experience with Christ, he did not know there was a greater knowledge that could be had. Naturally, in his ignorance, and contrary to what Mormon taught regarding the difference between faith and knowledge, he testified that he had knowledge of Christ. But he also humbly acknowledged that he had never seen which means that his "knowledge" was by the witness of the spirit and actually faith. For over 13 years, while still serving as an Apostle, he testified to people regarding his "knowledge" of Christ and gave his Apostolic witness of Christ by the spirit before he had a deeper experience that was more powerful by which he could say he knew the difference between a witness by the spirit and a vision.

"God bless us with faith in Christ—the faith Christ stressed when he appeared to the eleven. Thomas, you recall, wanted proof—wanted to personally see what had been described to him. The Savior said, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29.)

I have not seen, but I know. I have always known, but now I have received a greater assurance and pray that I will always know that this is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that it has been restored in our day, that God is a reality. I know that he lives, that man was created in his image and likeness. I know that Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary, is the Christ, the Son of God, and that there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. I know that he lives now—today—and that salvation is only through him; that he will bring us back, if worthy, to the presence of God, our Eternal Father." - How Great the Wisdom and the Love, Elder David B. Haight

Each time he says he knows, is actually means he believes because he doesn't have firsthand knowledge of any of the things he just said.

Unfortunately, if you have never been in Christ's presence, you have no way to understand the power and majesty of that experience or to compare that experience with that of the witness of the Holy Ghost. People who have no way to compare it will often teach that the most powerful witness we can have is the Holy Ghost simply because that is the most powerful experience they have had.

"I bear you my testimony that I know the Savior lives, that the most powerful witness you can have that He lives comes when the power of the Holy Spirit bears witness to your soul that He does live. More powerful than sight, more powerful than walking and talking with Him, is that witness of the Spirit by which you shall be judged if you were to turn against Him." - President and Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Harold B. Lee

This is not true, and anyone who has stood in His presence knows this. Even when you are in His presence you are to listen for the witness and understanding given by the Holy Ghost, but that still small voice is not the most powerful witness you can receive or else Mormon would have said that the Brother of Jared had knowledge before he saw the Lord and not as a result of seeing the Lord.

Thirteen years after Elder David B. Haight gave his first testimony as an Apostle, he had a greater witness of Christ through a vision he received while unconscious from a medical crisis. The vision was more powerful than the witness of the spirit he previously had and gave him a new level of understanding and knowledge with which he could compare against his previous experiences with the spirit. In the General Conference following his crisis, he shared the following.

"I had never doubted nor wondered. But now I knew, because of the impressions of the Spirit upon my heart and soul, these divine truths in a most unusual way.

I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things.
...
During those days of unconsciousness I was given, by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, a more perfect knowledge of His mission. I was also given a more complete understanding of what it means to exercise, in His name, the authority to unlock the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven for the salvation of all who are faithful.
...
I cannot begin to convey to you the deep impact that these scenes have confirmed upon my soul.
...
I testify to all of you that our Heavenly Father does answer our righteous pleadings. The added knowledge which has come to me has made a great impact upon my life. The gift of the Holy Ghost is a priceless possession and opens the door to our ongoing knowledge of God and eternal joy. Of this I bear witness, in the holy name of Jesus Christ, amen." - Elder David B. Haight

Elder David B. Haight clearly expressed that seeing in vision had a more profound and deep impact on his soul than the witness he previously had by the spirit without the vision. He now knew this because he had experience from which he could compare. He considered this an "unusual" experience which gave "added knowledge" to his faith. This experience for him was clearly more powerful than the simple witness of the spirit he had previously had. This was by no means the experience of having one's calling and election made sure or receiving the second comforter, but it was clearly a greater experience than he was used to. (Joseph smith said, "Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their calling and election was made sure, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God.")

Now, because I have seen and experienced these things and much more, I can very easily see many of the errors they are teaching they they don't know are errors, like the difference between faith and knowledge and the difference between the witness of the spirit and the presence of the Lord. You can't see what I can see because you haven't experienced what I have. There are things I can't see because I haven't experienced or learned them yet. What I can tell you with 100% knowledge and certainty is that what is taught in church, in the manuals and in General Conference by the Prophet and the Apostles, especially Elder Oaks, will never bring you to your calling and election, it will never bring you to the Second Comforter and it will never bring you back into the Presence of Christ which by definition means "Redeemed you from the Fall".

If you are following inexperienced guides, you will be seeking for the same blessings they are seeking, walking in darkness hoping to find what they have not found for themselves. But, because you don't know their qualifications, you will not realize that they are acting on the same unverified faith as you, but with confidence enough to gather unwitting followers. You will do what they tell you, thinking that you are doing exactly what you need to do without receiving the promised blessings. Ultimately when so many of their followers fail to receive the blessings promised, they will have to tell you that the promised blessings are out of your reach, unimportant or unnecessary and that you shouldn't be seeking those blessings anyway. To do anything else will make obvious and clear the fact that your guides do not know the path they are endeavoring to guide you on.

If you follow such guides, you will find that despite being an honorable person who had a testimony of Christ, you are being “blinded by the craftiness of men”, therefore you will inherit a Terrestrial glory.

“And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
...
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
...
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. - D&C 76:71-79

For this reason, it is important to know if your guides are qualified to lead you to back to Christ's presence and the crown of glory.

If you want to do something and you were looking for an instructor to teach you, you would want someone who can teach you from experience. In every area of life, we recognize the value of experience. But for some reason, when it comes to our spiritual direction and instruction, so many of us are willing to learn from and follow those who neglect or refuse to provide their qualifications.

If you have not yet had the spiritual experiences yourself and are looking for guides who are qualified to teach you how to breach the veil and see the heavens for yourself, it would be useful to know if your chosen leaders have done so for themselves or not. It puts their teachings and directions into proper perspective.

Imagine if you went to a doctor’s office and while in the waiting room you discovered that the only qualification the physician had or provided was their title or position at that clinic. Then, when you went to interview the doctor to see if they would sufficiently be able to instruct you in your physical health, you asked them about their qualifications and experience and they responded by telling you that it is not proper to ask such questions or that information like that is too special to share with you no matter how much you would respect and honor it.

Here’s the thing, they would be right IF they were not endeavoring to instruct and lead others. Once they accept a position of leadership as an assumed expert in which they endeavor to direct others to accomplish a goal, it becomes a right of those they lead to know if they have themselves achieved that goal or not.

For the sake of our spiritual progression, we need to know the qualifications of the people leading us. If we believe that they can bring us to Christ but they have never been in his presence themselves, then they really don't know what they are doing. If they haven't breached the veil themselves, they are guessing and hoping you can live their instructions better than they can. But they may not have considered that the reason they have not achieved the goal for themselves is not their ability to live according to their own instructions but that their instructions are based on the traditions of men and will never lead you correctly.

Beyond the obligation for those who endeavor to lead others, it is a privilege for anyone who has experienced Christ's presence to be a witness of their Savior to the world. There is no reason to act embarrassed or ashamed of your witness any more than there is to be ashamed of a testimony of Christ given by the spirit. If it is good for a person who has a testimony by the spirit to share their faith regarding the Savior in hopes of building the faith of others, it is so much more a blessing for a witnesses of Christ to proclaim they know Christ lives because they've stood in his presence and felt his overwhelming love and acceptance. While they may not reveal every detail about what they saw and were taught, they will not miss an opportunity to bear their personal witness of Lord Jesus Christ which only builds faith and encourages others to do the same.

Do not accept ambiguous answers that some experiences are too sacred to share, or that it is improper to ask about and discuss such things. If someone is claiming to be an expert that can help you achieve your goals, they are obligated to provide their credentials. If they do not, then we need to treat them as if they have not and put their teachings into that perspective.

I have each met with the Lord in person on several occasions. I have been held in his loving arms and learned from him personally as he ministered to me directly. I know the path that leads to eternal life because I have walked it from beginning to end. I am not writing from a position of theory and I do not offer a testimony of Jesus Christ by way of faith. I know that Jesus Christ lives because I've seen him and touched him and stood in his glory. I speak from a position of knowledge as direct witnesses of Christ.

These experiences are not reserved to a select or special few. Just as receiving the Holy Ghost is a gift available to all people, so too are all the other gifts of having your calling and election made sure, receiving the Second Comforter and visions of eternity. These are blessings for all of us to have.

In the scriptures we read of people like Jacob who was brought into Christ's presence as a teenager. My missionary companion went from not knowing if God existed to having his calling and election made sure and receiving the Second Comforter and being brought back into Christ's presence in about a week. He did it so quickly because he followed the right path quickly. At the time I didn't know the path and it took me a few more years. It is takes a long time, and it is truly your hearts desire, the reason that you haven't done it is because you don't know or follow the path.

I see what is taught in GC and I know that if you follow about 95% of what is taught, you will not ever receive these blessings. You are trusting people who say they know when they believe. They teach you to follow the prophet who has never had these experiences, and I who have would never tell you to follow me because I know that "cursed is any man who puts their trust in the arm of flesh" and that to do so is not the Lord's goal. It is exactly contrary to what the Lord taught here,

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; - D&C 1:17-20

For this prophecy to be fulfilled, YOU and I and everyone, must learn to speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world. AND we need to learn NOT to teach or give counsel or take and receive counsel from our fellow men, unless it is given and received by the Holy Ghost.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God." - D&C 50:19-20

"34 These words are not of men nor of man, but of me; wherefore, you shall testify they are of me and not of man;
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words." - D&C 18:34-36

As an expert with experience, I know that We need to stop following positions and start following the spirit.

If we are learning from any person or group, then it is important that we know if they are able to teach and lead us to the goals we are seeking to achieve. If they have not experienced the blessings the Lord has in store for us, then the chances of them leading us to the results we desire are slim. In such instances, it becomes a case of the blind leading the blind.

Even the greatest of scholars are limited in their knowledge if they haven’t had personal experience. Anyone who knows enough to lead someone else to a blessing or experience will most certainly know enough to have had the experience for themselves. If they have not, then they do not know enough to teach you to have it either.

Jesus criticized the leaders of his day for leading the people without having first hand personal experience saying,

“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” - Matt. 23:13

This is what the leaders of the church do today. They neither go in themselves nor allow others to go in. I myself have gone in and the response I get from leaders in the church is very negative. I can't count how many people have been excommunicated who have experienced these things. Those who have experience and have not been excommunicated keep their mouths shut, like your friend who won't share his witness and experience of Christ. They know that if they do, they risk being judged within the church and by their own leaders.

So, to summarize:
1. The say they have knowledge to boost their importance when they have the same faith and slightly more experience than every new member should have.
2. The church leaders don't realize they are teaching false doctrine that doesn't lead beyond Terrestrial results, because they don't know what they don't know. They are the blind leading the blind.
3. They shut the mouths and silence the voices of those who have real actual firsthand experience. They neither go in nor allow others to go in. This is one way in which they "persecute the saints, and to fight against God."

~Seeker

Seeker144k wrote: ↑January 1st, 2023, 9:50 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:41 am I'm still working on it. But to be honest, I'm in no hurry, because I know that they will just be rejected out of hand by those with an ax to grind against the church.

Please provide the transcript for your Hinckley proof text "quote" so we can verify it's accuracy.

President Hinckley was asked this many times in the hundreds of interviews he had. Every time he said about the same thing. Here is an example of what he said,

RB: As the world leader of the the Church, how are you in touch with God? Can you explain that for me?

GBH: I pray. I pray to Him. Night and morning. I speak with Him. I think He hears my prayers. As He hears the prayers of others. I think He answers them.

RB: But more than that, because you’re leader of the Church. Do you have a special connection?

GBH: I have a special relationship in terms of the Church as an institution. Yes.

RB: And you receive........

GBH: For the entire Church.

RB: You receive?

GBH: Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.

RB: And this is a Revelation?

GBH: This is a Revelation.

RB: How often have you received such revelations?

GBH: Oh, I don’t know. I feel satisfied that in some circumstances we’ve had such revelation. It’s a very sacred thing that we don’t like to talk about a lot. A very sacred thing.

Q: But it’s a special experience?

GBH: I think it’s a real thing. It’s a very real thing. And a special experience.
- http://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is exactly how the church anciently was run after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Acts 1:1-2 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The church apostles and prophet today are led exactly the same way. Look at every major decision they have made over the years. Why are we arguing this point?

~Seeker

This is the only "quote" by Hinckley that I'm aware of where he said that none of the brethren were receiving revelation by "visions" at all. Which is why I question the providence of this "quote."

Especially considering that we have multiple apostles who have claimed visions, including in the Hinkley and post Hinckley eras. The quote by Hinkley you shared in this post, contradicts what he supposedly said in your prooftext "quote." In this one he is saying that revelation usually comes by the Holy Ghost, but sometimes on other ways.

So until you provide the actual transcript, I will maintain that the author of the article misunderstood or misrepresented what Hinckley said in that chopped up "quote."

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 10:29 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑January 1st, 2023, 9:50 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:41 am I'm still working on it. But to be honest, I'm in no hurry, because I know that they will just be rejected out of hand by those with an ax to grind against the church.

Please provide the transcript for your Hinckley proof text "quote" so we can verify it's accuracy.

President Hinckley was asked this many times in the hundreds of interviews he had. Every time he said about the same thing. Here is an example of what he said,

RB: As the world leader of the the Church, how are you in touch with God? Can you explain that for me?

GBH: I pray. I pray to Him. Night and morning. I speak with Him. I think He hears my prayers. As He hears the prayers of others. I think He answers them.

RB: But more than that, because you’re leader of the Church. Do you have a special connection?

GBH: I have a special relationship in terms of the Church as an institution. Yes.

RB: And you receive........

GBH: For the entire Church.

RB: You receive?

GBH: Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.

RB: And this is a Revelation?

GBH: This is a Revelation.

RB: How often have you received such revelations?

GBH: Oh, I don’t know. I feel satisfied that in some circumstances we’ve had such revelation. It’s a very sacred thing that we don’t like to talk about a lot. A very sacred thing.

Q: But it’s a special experience?

GBH: I think it’s a real thing. It’s a very real thing. And a special experience.
- http://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is exactly how the church anciently was run after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Acts 1:1-2 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The church apostles and prophet today are led exactly the same way. Look at every major decision they have made over the years. Why are we arguing this point?

~Seeker

This is the only "quote" by Hinckley that I'm aware of where he said that none of the brethren were receiving revelation by "visions" at all. Which is why I question the providence of this "quote."

Especially considering that we have multiple apostles who have claimed visions, including in the Hinkley and post Hinckley eras. The quote by Hinkley you shared in this post, contradicts what he supposedly said in your prooftext "quote." In this one he is saying that revelation usually comes by the Holy Ghost, but sometimes on other ways.

So until you provide the actual transcript, I will maintain that the author of the article misunderstood or misrepresented what Hinckley said in that chopped up "quote."

LDS Watchman there is now even proof to clearly state that you will maintain that all is well regardless of the information provided. There are no facts, no information, no information or data or reasons or logic or proof, nothing can be provided to you that you will actually consider because your goal is not to learn or to understand but your goal is simply to deny anything that might injure or put the club called The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a bad light.

My post is a fact.

...

Seeker144k wrote: ↑January 1st, 2023, 9:03 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:45 pm So to sum up, you believe Joseph Smith was teaching falsehoods on this point. Well, I disagree. I believe that he was right and you are wrong.

I believe what the Lord said in D&C 28, and if there is a contradiction between Joseph Smith and the Lord, then I go with the Lord..

D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

This is includes the verse you gave to support your view/Joseph's view, it just includes the entire context you avoided. I believe the Lord who said in that context, "if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it. But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;". He was correct, and this appears to disagree with your view. I believe that this statement applies to all members. As Nephi pointed out, the Holy Ghost gives us authority to speak to whoever it sends us.

1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

I also thing that the reason the Lord said we can speak and teach but not write by way of commandment and revelation to the church has something to do with what Nephi said here.

2 Nephi 33
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.
2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.

~Seeker

This additional "context doesn't change anything.

1) This is a specific revelation to Oliver Cowdery, who was the 2nd highest authority in the church at this time. So of course he is to teach and instruct the church by revelation

2) You'll notice that he is not permitted to command his head (aka Joseph Smith who is higher in authority than he is)

So it squares 100% with the Joseph Smith quote about the economy of heaven not permitting someone to receive revelation for someone who is higher in authority than themselves.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 11:13 am

darknesstolight wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 10:36 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 10:29 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑January 1st, 2023, 9:50 am
President Hinckley was asked this many times in the hundreds of interviews he had. Every time he said about the same thing. Here is an example of what he said,



This is exactly how the church anciently was run after Jesus ascended into heaven.


The church apostles and prophet today are led exactly the same way. Look at every major decision they have made over the years. Why are we arguing this point?

~Seeker

This is the only "quote" by Hinckley that I'm aware of where he said that none of the brethren were receiving revelation by "visions" at all. Which is why I question the providence of this "quote."

Especially considering that we have multiple apostles who have claimed visions, including in the Hinkley and post Hinckley eras. The quote by Hinkley you shared in this post, contradicts what he supposedly said in your prooftext "quote." In this one he is saying that revelation usually comes by the Holy Ghost, but sometimes on other ways.

So until you provide the actual transcript, I will maintain that the author of the article misunderstood or misrepresented what Hinckley said in that chopped up "quote."

...

Still lying I see.

LDS Watchman there is now even proof to clearly state that you will maintain that all is well regardless of the information provided. There are no facts, no information, no information or data or reasons or logic or proof, nothing can be provided to you that you will actually consider because your goal is not to learn or to understand but your goal is simply to deny anything that might injure or put the club called The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a bad light.

My post is a fact.

...

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 11:19 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑January 1st, 2023, 9:03 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:45 pm So to sum up, you believe Joseph Smith was teaching falsehoods on this point. Well, I disagree. I believe that he was right and you are wrong.

I believe what the Lord said in D&C 28, and if there is a contradiction between Joseph Smith and the Lord, then I go with the Lord..

D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

This is includes the verse you gave to support your view/Joseph's view, it just includes the entire context you avoided. I believe the Lord who said in that context, "if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it. But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;". He was correct, and this appears to disagree with your view. I believe that this statement applies to all members. As Nephi pointed out, the Holy Ghost gives us authority to speak to whoever it sends us.

1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

I also thing that the reason the Lord said we can speak and teach but not write by way of commandment and revelation to the church has something to do with what Nephi said here.

2 Nephi 33
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.
2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.

~Seeker

This additional "context doesn't change anything.

1) This is a specific revelation to Oliver Cowdery, who was the 2nd highest authority in the church at this time. So of course he is to teach and instruct the church by revelation

2) You'll notice that he is not permitted to command his head (aka Joseph Smith who is higher in authority than he is)

So it squares 100% with the Joseph Smith quote about the economy of heaven not permitting someone to receive revelation for someone who is higher in authority than themselves.

You said all members are a part of the body and can lead the Church with their visions and revelations. Now you are saying what I was saying.



...

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 12:49 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 11:23 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 11:19 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑January 1st, 2023, 9:03 am
I believe what the Lord said in D&C 28, and if there is a contradiction between Joseph Smith and the Lord, then I go with the Lord..

This is includes the verse you gave to support your view/Joseph's view, it just includes the entire context you avoided. I believe the Lord who said in that context, "if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it. But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;". He was correct, and this appears to disagree with your view. I believe that this statement applies to all members. As Nephi pointed out, the Holy Ghost gives us authority to speak to whoever it sends us.

I also thing that the reason the Lord said we can speak and teach but not write by way of commandment and revelation to the church has something to do with what Nephi said here.


~Seeker

This additional "context doesn't change anything.

1) This is a specific revelation to Oliver Cowdery, who was the 2nd highest authority in the church at this time. So of course he is to teach and instruct the church by revelation

2) You'll notice that he is not permitted to command his head (aka Joseph Smith who is higher in authority than he is)

So it squares 100% with the Joseph Smith quote about the economy of heaven not permitting someone to receive revelation for someone who is higher in authority than themselves.

Now you are saying what I was saying.

Nope. Please stop lying.

FYI I've reported your posts as ad hominem.

I'll bring up the post where you argued that all members are part of the body and if any member is having visions, etc. then that means the Church is being LED by visions.

Now you contradicted yourself.

...

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 1:12 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 1:01 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 12:49 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2023, 11:23 am

Now you are saying what I was saying.

Nope. Please stop lying.

FYI I've reported your posts as ad hominem.

I'll bring up the post where you argued that all members are part of the body and if any member is having visions, etc. then that means the Church is being LED by visions.

Now you contradicted yourself.

...

So you make and ad hominid attack on me and lie about me and then report me for an ad hominem attack?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Report it if you think I attacked you.

However you are avoiding the fact that you made an argument earlier where you said that members are a part of the body and therefore if they are having visions then the Church is being led by visions. Now you are arguing, like I was, that only those with the proper authority can actually lead the church.

And I can prove what I said earlier and this is more evidence that backs up.

Do you still assert that members can lead the church via their visions and revelations?

...