LDS Freedom Forum

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:11 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance.

That happens near their end. They have the legal lease of the vineyard for now but are still the wicked husbandmen who will be destroyed.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:08 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Not all dispensation are the same. Joseph Smith is the prophet called to open this dispensation and the revelations and teachings he gave us are what we are to follow. Not the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

I follow quite closely the teachings of Joseph, albeit I don’t agree with your interpretations. What he taught is also incredibly muddy if you don’t always trust second hand sources.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Plus no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance. That should tell those who claim that the brethren are evil and the church completely apostate something.

I don’t think many members would be willing to listen… just as in Abinadi’s day. The BoM has this incredible knack for foreshadowing.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:11 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance.

That happens near their end. They have the legal lease of the vineyard for now but are still the wicked husbandmen who will be destroyed.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:07 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:21 pm So, yes, the church is most definitely being led at least in part by visions.

No it's not. Well over 90% of Bishops get jack. 100% of Bishops are restricted from acting on anything other than handbook. The handbook does not allow for bishops having visions.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:08 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:45 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 8:41 am

I know that there have been quite a few church presidents and apostles who have claimed to have seen visions, including seeing Christ post Joseph Smith and post Manifesto. I'm working on compiling as many of these accounts as I can find.

I would very much like to see this. There have only been 17 presidents of the Church, so it is a short list to work from as far as Presidents of the Church go. The following will help you with this list.

President Brigham Young - Said he hadn't had seen either the Father or the son after being president for 12 years and then again 17 years.
John Taylor - Unknown
Wilford Woodruff - I'm pretty sure he didn't, but can't find the reference (It is clear that the Declaration on Polygamy was not dictated by Christ)
Lorenzo Snow - Unknown
Joseph F. Smith - Had not - Testified before Congress that he had not received so much as a revelation more than any Methodist. - 1904-1907
Heber J, Grant - Had not - GC April 1899 and a letter to his sister April 13, 1926 and GC 1942 - President for 24 years
George Albert Smith - Had not - March 25, 1950 - President 5 years
David O. McKay - Said he had not in an interview on May 5, 1961 - President for 10 years
Joseph Fielding Smith - Unknown
Harold B. Lee - Spencer W. Kimball -
Ezra Taft Benson - Unknown
Howard W. Hunter - Unknown
Gordon B. Hinckley - Say that all his revelations come by the Holy Ghost - Multiple interviews throughout his presidency
Thomas S. Monson - I remember him saying no and don't ask, but didn't look for the quote.
Russell M. Nelson - As far as I can tell, not yet. 8 years ago when he was the Sr. Apostle he said he didn't and that his special witness was from the spirit which he related to anyone having the same witness when taking the Sacrament.

Also:
Apostle David B. Haight - Had not seen - May 1976, had seen at a distance - 1986 (about a year before he died)
Dallin H Oaks - Has said multiple times that he has not seen and says that none of the other 15 leaders of the church have either.)
George Q. Cannon -

Some who have seen Christ in Vision:
Melvin J. Ballard - April 1920
Hugh B. Brown - Recounted by Harold B. Lee - not sure on the date
Christoffel Golden - Recounted by Scott Duke - not sure on the date
Quentin Cook - Jan. 26, 2019

Let me know if you want any of the quotes that I used to create this list.

~Seeker

I'm still working on the list. Many of these experiences were only shared privately, not publicly over the pulpit in Conference, so they're a little hard to find.

Just off the top of my head,

Brigham Young spoke of multiple visions that he had, including one were he spent time in the eternities and saw all about the pre-existance and afterlife.

John Taylor said he saw Christ and had several other visions.

Wilford Woodruff said he saw Christ and had several other visions.

Lorenzo Snow's granddaughter said that he told her he saw Christ.

Heber J. Grant said he saw Christ in the 1880s. I shared the quote on here recently.

Heber C. Kimball had multiple visions.

LeGrand Richard's said he saw Christ.

Boyd K. Packer strongly suggested that he and other members of the Q12 had seen Christ.

George Q. Cannon said he saw Christ.

Joseph F. Smith had multiple visions.

Etc.

Can you please provide the quotes for each of these? I'd like to update my list.

~Seeker

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:31 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:08 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Not all dispensation are the same. Joseph Smith is the prophet called to open this dispensation and the revelations and teachings he gave us are what we are to follow. Not the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

I follow quite closely the teachings of Joseph, albeit I don’t agree with your interpretations. What he taught is also incredibly muddy if you don’t always trust second hand sources.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Plus no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance. That should tell those who claim that the brethren are evil and the church completely apostate something.

I don’t think many members would be willing to listen… just as in Abinadi’s day. The BoM has this incredible knack for foreshadowing.

Well, I didn't provide any interpretation of what Joseph Smith and the Lord said. I simply quoted it.

As for no "Abinadi" I think your reasoning is a cop-out. Of course if the church were as evil and apostate as you, your dad, and many others on here claim, someone would listen to a true prophet calling them to repentance.

Heck, one of the wicked priests was the only one who listened to Abinadi.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:45 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:31 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:08 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Not all dispensation are the same. Joseph Smith is the prophet called to open this dispensation and the revelations and teachings he gave us are what we are to follow. Not the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

I follow quite closely the teachings of Joseph, albeit I don’t agree with your interpretations. What he taught is also incredibly muddy if you don’t always trust second hand sources.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Plus no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance. That should tell those who claim that the brethren are evil and the church completely apostate something.

I don’t think many members would be willing to listen… just as in Abinadi’s day. The BoM has this incredible knack for foreshadowing.

Well, I didn't provide any interpretation of what Joseph Smith and the Lord said. I simply quoted it.

As for no "Abinadi" I think your reasoning is a cop-out. Of course if the church were as evil and apostate as you, your dad, and many others on here claim, someone would listen to a true prophet calling them to repentance.

Heck, one of the wicked priests was the only one who listened to Abinadi.

You “simply quote it” and then assume that it supports your opinions, which is your interpretation. Still doesn’t take into account how little first-hand teachings we actually have from Joseph. I’ll go with what he said, that if he taught anything that contradicts the standard works… he was wrong. So that will be my standard, specifically the BoM.

You’re right that this is a much different dispensation. Instead of one Abinadi, there are hundreds and thousands of people reading the scriptures and comparing them to the teachings of the LDS organization. We have access to so much more information than the people in his day, and are given standard by Christ to judge. “By their fruits, ye shall know them.” When any man teaches doctrine contrary to what we have laid out in the BoM then you can know of a surety that they are deceived, or willingly misleading.

None of that matters though because you are content and rooted in your belief that the LDS organization is Christ’s church. So long as you retain a “testimony” of that supposed fact, you will be able to justify nearly anything. I know this because you are able to look at an incredibly simple statement and somehow justify in your mind that it is something else.

Example:

I believe you are much smarter than that.

This isn't even a duck-rabbit, it's pure mental gymnastics.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:42 am
So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

You completely ignored the part where I said, "As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well."

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with what Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said.

Jesus:

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (Brigham Young, January 12, 1862, Journal of Discourses, 9:151)

"Some may say, Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am. I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are, this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.
Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right." (Brigham Young, October 6, 1855, Journal of Discourses, 3:45)

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am 91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

Numbers 11
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

D&C 68
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am Joseph Smith:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.
TPJS, 21

D&C 121
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 12:10 pm What's interesting is that in the same breath that you accuse me of mental gymnastics, you reject the revelations and teachings of Joseph Smith that go against your personal interpretation of the Book of Mormon, all while screaming and shouting about how the church is apostate for not following what Joseph Smith taught. If that's not mental gymnastics, I don't know what is.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 12:10 pm Here's an idea, how about instead of always resorting to personal attacks and trying to discredit me personally, why not just address my arguments without all that?

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 12:29 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:42 am
So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

You completely ignored the part where I said, "As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well."

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with what Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said.

Jesus:

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

oooh, you made a common mistake. You forgot to quote the verse in context and missed the entire point of what the Lord was saying. This revelation was given because Oliver Cowdery was stepping on Joseph's toes and the Lord needed to explain where the line is drawn between the role of the Prophet/highest leader and the role of other prophets in the church, (let's face it, we are all prophets in the church if we have the gift of the Holy Ghost).

Many people teach what you just insinuated which is that the Lord does not give revelations to the church through anyone except the Prophet/President of the church. This is not what the Lord said in this chapter. It is a deception that is taught in the church using that one verse out of context. The Lord tells Oliver that "if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it." but adds a stipulation saying, "But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom".

Can you see the difference between having and giving commandments and revelations for the entire church presented as wisdom as opposed to enforcing those commandments and revelations on the church by policy, procedure and practice? The Lord said, only the 1st Elder of the church can change the policy and practices of the church and write by way of commandment to the church, but anyone in the church can have the revelation to speak and teach the commandments and revelations from the Lord through the authority of the Holy Ghost. Here are the verses in context.

D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

When the Lord revealed His plans regarding Israel to Samuel, (the 11 year old boy), Samuel received the revelation, but he was not in the position of Eli, (the High Priest over Israel), to change policies, practices or procedures of the church. When Lehi saw the vision from the Lord, he went out and prophesied to the people and warned them of what was to come by the power of the Holy Ghost. But, he did not have the authority of the High Priest to write commandments to the church the way Moses did and establish it as law.

The leaders of the church have told us that we are expected and required to receive revelations for the church if nothing else, so that we know it is being led correctly.

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (Brigham Young, January 12, 1862, Journal of Discourses, 9:151)

"Some may say, Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am. I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are, this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.
Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right." (Brigham Young, October 6, 1855, Journal of Discourses, 3:45)

How could we receive the revelation that leaders of the church are leading the church correctly if we could not receive revelation about where the Lord wants the church to go and what He intends for it to do?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am 91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

Yes, that is correct. They should be like Moses. What did Moses say when people under him were prophesying by the spirit to the congregation? Here's what Moses said,

Numbers 11
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Yes, President Nelson should be like Moses and not be envious of members in the church prophesying or giving commandments and revelations to the church. Only he can choose to enforce those commandments into laws and policies, but anyone can preach and teach by the spirit. And, further more, the Lord was talking about missionaries when he said that when they are speaking by the power of the holy Ghost, it is as binding spiritually as if the Lord was speaking himself.

D&C 68
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.

It doesn't matter if the Lord calls and sends Amos to prophecy and preach to the other side of Israel where he had no authority when he was no prophet or prophet's son. It doesn't matter if the Lord calls you or I to teach or preach in another ward or stake. I know I have, and I assume that you have visited a ward while on vacation or out of town and while there attending a priesthood or gospel doctrine class the spirit inspired you to make some powerful comment that people present needed to hear. How could the spirit lead you to preach or prophecy to people outside your authority or give you words to deliver to them when you weren't even part of their ward/stake? It happens all the time and you have just been misled to believe that it can't.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am Joseph Smith:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.
TPJS, 21

And yet I provided multiple instances from the scriptures showing examples of people receiving visions and revelations for others including their leaders. If we applied this to the prophets in scripture, we would find over and over again that the prophets broke this rule. Even Jesus Christ himself found in error of this principle. And I can see someone say, well, that doesn't count because the church and leadership of the church in his day was corrupt. Well, guess what. I've had corrupt Bishops and Stake Presidents. In fact, the lord said that "almost all" of the leaders of the church have lost their priesthood authority immediately upon being called. here's the qoute.

D&C 121
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

I have experienced and or witnessed this myself many times. The Lord said that we should expect "almost all men" to do this. It is very much in the economy of God for anyone inspired by the Holy Ghost to speak the words of the Lord to anyone the Lord sees fit to send that person to speak for Him. That includes their leaders, both righteous and wicked. A righteous leader who hears the lay member's sermon inspired by the spirit will rejoice in what is being shared and receive the word of God even when it is calls for them to make corrections. A wicked leader who hears the lay member's sermon inspired by the spirit will be upset by what is being shared and reject the word of God especially when it is calls for them to make corrections. Any teaching or doctrine that prevents leaders from being corrected by those they lead is inspired by pride and the devil and not of God. The righteous are humble enough to hear and consider even the complaints of the wicked.

Since our President is supposed to be like Moses, I'll call out that Moses received instruction from Jethro on how to lead and adjust the church he setup. I think our President should be like Moses.

~Seeker

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:03 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 12:10 pm Here's an idea, how about instead of always resorting to personal attacks and trying to discredit me personally, why not just address my arguments without all that?

I've addressed every single "argument" we've ever had, and thoroughly explain why and where I've come to my conclusions. An evaluation of your intent doesn't constitute "personal attacks". After months of discussion, I really don't think you're a genuine individual interested in the truth. But if you are sincerely sure that you are correct, who gives a damn what some random forum poster like myself thinks? Pray for me as I pray for you.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:49 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:03 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 12:10 pm Here's an idea, how about instead of always resorting to personal attacks and trying to discredit me personally, why not just address my arguments without all that?

I've addressed every single "argument" we've ever had, and thoroughly explain why and where I've come to my conclusions. An evaluation of your intent doesn't constitute "personal attacks". After months of discussion, I really don't think you're a genuine individual interested in the truth. But if you are sincerely sure that you are correct, who gives a damn what some random forum poster like myself thinks? Pray for me as I pray for you.

I'm going to be perfectly honest with you. I don't give a damn what you think. I believe that you are seriously deceived. I've tried to labor with you to help you see the error of your ways. Which I still haven't completely given up on, though I have very little hope that you will ever see the light. But I hope I'm wrong. At this point I mostly challenge your false claims so others who may read our exchanges can see the truth and not be deceived. That's about it.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:02 pm
How can I reject the teachings of Joseph when we know so little about what he actually taught? When we remove second-hand sources, there is very little. The only teachings I reject are the ones that can't even be verified as actually coming from him.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:02 pm You yourself throw out Joseph's statement in the Council of Fifty on the relationship between God's church and kingdom because you deem it unreliable.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:02 pm Every statement from Joseph I've personally debated with you I either interpret differently or conclude that it's a farce. To my honest evaluation, I've never disagreed with what Joseph *actually* taught on any doctrinal topics. I even agree with many parts of D&C, and see that it's consistent with my belief of Christ's church based on the BoM and teachings of Joseph, although there is much that has been altered.

When Joseph's teachings become muddied, which is often, I rely on the BoM as a standard for doctrinal truth. Joseph would agree, considering he said that it is the most correct of any book. So yes, when I read things plainly in the BoM that obviously contradict supposed statements from Joseph, I reject them.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:02 pm I think many of your BoM interpretations are based upon "ABC" doctrine; namely, that because I know "A" is true, then B and C are automatically true (or false). You've made up your mind that the LDS organization is Christ's only church, so no matter what the BoM says you will find a way to support your original conclusion. It's a logical fallacy that I see you use frequently; "A" is true, so subsequently anything that contradicts "A" simply can't be true.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:02 pm "Those verses about condemnation can't be referring to the LDS org because we know that this is the true church that will never fall away".

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm This is completely untrue. We know a great deal of what he taught. He published a bunch of it while he was alive, including many of his revelations in the D&C. His personal scribes also wrote a great deal of what he taught under his direct supervision. You reject things he taught which can be 100% verified as having come from him. Your go to line is that you are "admonishing him in his faults."

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm Nope, I haven't thrown it out at all. But I do look at in the context of everything else Joseph and the scriptures have to say about the subject. You on the other hand cling to this quote and reject all the context because you believe you can twist it to fit your desired narrative.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm This is simply untrue. You reject many things that can be verified as coming from Joseph Smith, including some of the revelations of Jesus Christ in the D&C. Basically you reject anything and everything that doesn't fit your personal interpretation of the Book of Mormon. Basically you lean on your own understanding and reject the word of God that doesn't fit with what you want to believe.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm I believe what Jesus Christ said about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being his only true and living church in the last days. You reject what the Savior said. That's not a logical fallacy on my part. That's simply believing what Jesus and Joseph Smith said.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm I don't believe that this is a direct quote of mine. In any event, obviously the condemnation in D&C 84 is directed at the members of the church. But when taken in the context of that section and the rest of the scriptures, it can't mean what you are claiming.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:14 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm This is completely untrue. We know a great deal of what he taught. He published a bunch of it while he was alive, including many of his revelations in the D&C. His personal scribes also wrote a great deal of what he taught under his direct supervision. You reject things he taught which can be 100% verified as having come from him. Your go to line is that you are "admonishing him in his faults."

Show me an example of a verifiable statement that I outright reject.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm Nope, I haven't thrown it out at all. But I do look at in the context of everything else Joseph and the scriptures have to say about the subject. You on the other hand cling to this quote and reject all the context because you believe you can twist it to fit your desired narrative.

This reply is meaningless, I have nothing to say.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm This is simply untrue. You reject many things that can be verified as coming from Joseph Smith, including some of the revelations of Jesus Christ in the D&C. Basically you reject anything and everything that doesn't fit your personal interpretation of the Book of Mormon. Basically you lean on your own understanding and reject the word of God that doesn't fit with what you want to believe.

Again, this is meaningless and includes no actual information.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm I believe what Jesus Christ said about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being his only true and living church in the last days. You reject what the Savior said. That's not a logical fallacy on my part. That's simply believing what Jesus and Joseph Smith said.

Again, meaningless fluff. Show me something I've rejected.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:03 pm I don't believe that this is a direct quote of mine. In any event, obviously the condemnation in D&C 84 is directed at the members of the church. But when taken in the context of that section and the rest of the scriptures, it can't mean what you are claiming.

There is much more condemnation of the latter-day Gentiles than what's stated in section 84. A conversation about that right now will be no different than the ones we've had in the past.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm Oh, there are quote a very things you reject, such as D&C 1:30, D&C 115:4

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm all of Joseph's statements that the church was the last days kingdom of God on earth,

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verses in the D&C about the laborers being sent out to prune the vineyard for the final time beginning in the 1830s,

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verse in D&C 112 I believe that says that the keys of the kingdom were given last of all to the Q12 in this dispensation

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the quite by Joseph above about not receiving revelation for those higher in authority,

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:30 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm Oh, there are quote a very things you reject, such as D&C 1:30, D&C 115:4

They support my view, which I've explained in the past. Not going to rehash it.

This thread isn't as concise as I'd like, but it touches these briefly.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm all of Joseph's statements that the church was the last days kingdom of God on earth,

The only one you've shown here is a supposed letter to his father, which I remember reading and disagreeing that it even contradicts me. I don't have it handy, if you'd like to discuss it (or any others, because apparently there are so many) share it again and we can reevaluate. Until then, he clearly distinguishes the two in that Council of Fifty address.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verses in the D&C about the laborers being sent out to prune the vineyard for the final time beginning in the 1830s,

I quite love the parable of the vineyard, and don't see how it contradicts me. You'll have to be more specific.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verse in D&C 112 I believe that says that the keys of the kingdom were given last of all to the Q12 in this dispensation

I don't reject it, and that's not what it says. There are a lot of misconceptions about the concept of "keys". That chapter specifically says that Joseph will hold the keys until Christ comes again, not that they would remain with an organization: "the keys which I have given unto him, and also to youward, shall not be taken from him till I come" (15). As far as I can tell, these keys are given to a specific person and are not transferred on the basis of succession. I don't disagree with this at all, and it doesn't say that the keys would remain with the 12 (or 15 but I'm sure God was cool with 3 more). If they had keys, it was under whatever authority Joseph has as stated in verse 15.

Likewise, Peter was given keys. Anyone else? Nah. They were obviously lost when he died.

I think the early members played a big part in spreading the new covenant (found in the BoM) to foreign lands, which is the context of this chapter. I don't disagree that they had some keys or authority for a time and helped to bring people to the truth.

But, both keys and authority can be taken from a person depending on their worthiness, this is made clear in D&C 121 and the JST of Mark 9.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the quite by Joseph above about not receiving revelation for those higher in authority,

The letter to John Carter? I see no problem with it, among a righteous church there is obviously order. That letter specifically addresses confusion about when someone comes claiming visions to lead the church, which to my knowledge happened a few times. Our only disagreement here would be about who actually holds authority.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:55 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:30 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm Oh, there are quote a very things you reject, such as D&C 1:30, D&C 115:4

They support my view, which I've explained in the past. Not going to rehash it.

This thread isn't as concise as I'd like, but it touches these briefly.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm all of Joseph's statements that the church was the last days kingdom of God on earth,

The only one you've shown here is a supposed letter to his father, which I remember reading and disagreeing that it even contradicts me. I don't have it handy, if you'd like to discuss it (or any others, because apparently there are so many) share it again and we can reevaluate. Until then, he clearly distinguishes the two in that Council of Fifty address.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verses in the D&C about the laborers being sent out to prune the vineyard for the final time beginning in the 1830s,

I quite love the parable of the vineyard, and don't see how it contradicts me. You'll have to be more specific.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verse in D&C 112 I believe that says that the keys of the kingdom were given last of all to the Q12 in this dispensation

I don't reject it, and that's not what it says. There are a lot of misconceptions about the concept of "keys". That chapter specifically says that Joseph will hold the keys until Christ comes again, not that they would remain with an organization: "the keys which I have given unto him, and also to youward, shall not be taken from him till I come" (15). As far as I can tell, these keys are given to a specific person and are not transferred on the basis of succession. I don't disagree with this at all, and it doesn't say that the keys would remain with the 12 (or 15 but I'm sure God was cool with 3 more). If they had keys, it was under whatever authority Joseph has as stated in verse 15.

Likewise, Peter was given keys. Anyone else? Nah. They were obviously lost when he died.

I think the early members played a big part in spreading the new covenant (found in the BoM) to foreign lands, which is the context of this chapter. I don't disagree that they had some keys or authority for a time and helped to bring people to the truth.

But, both keys and authority can be taken from a person depending on their worthiness, this is made clear in D&C 121 and the JST of Mark 9.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the quite by Joseph above about not receiving revelation for those higher in authority,

The letter to John Carter? I see no problem with it, among a righteous church there is obviously order. That letter specifically addresses confusion about when someone comes claiming visions to lead the church, which to my knowledge happened a few times. Our only disagreement here would be about who actually holds authority.

I'll be honest, I'm really not interested in debating this any further at this point. In this very post you are misrepresenting past discussions we've had and what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say. Maybe you've changed some of your views or maybe your just trying to do damage control. Who knows?

I could spend hours combing through our past conversations and expounding on scriptures and in the end when your back is against the wall and you don't have a good answer, you'll just start mocking me with pig faces or accusing me of being insincere, etc. Plus you claim that this is all just entertainment for you and that you aren't actually interested in genuine dialog. So this is a pointless exercise for me.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 4:01 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:55 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:30 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm Oh, there are quote a very things you reject, such as D&C 1:30, D&C 115:4

They support my view, which I've explained in the past. Not going to rehash it.

This thread isn't as concise as I'd like, but it touches these briefly.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm all of Joseph's statements that the church was the last days kingdom of God on earth,

The only one you've shown here is a supposed letter to his father, which I remember reading and disagreeing that it even contradicts me. I don't have it handy, if you'd like to discuss it (or any others, because apparently there are so many) share it again and we can reevaluate. Until then, he clearly distinguishes the two in that Council of Fifty address.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verses in the D&C about the laborers being sent out to prune the vineyard for the final time beginning in the 1830s,

I quite love the parable of the vineyard, and don't see how it contradicts me. You'll have to be more specific.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the verse in D&C 112 I believe that says that the keys of the kingdom were given last of all to the Q12 in this dispensation

I don't reject it, and that's not what it says. There are a lot of misconceptions about the concept of "keys". That chapter specifically says that Joseph will hold the keys until Christ comes again, not that they would remain with an organization: "the keys which I have given unto him, and also to youward, shall not be taken from him till I come" (15). As far as I can tell, these keys are given to a specific person and are not transferred on the basis of succession. I don't disagree with this at all, and it doesn't say that the keys would remain with the 12 (or 15 but I'm sure God was cool with 3 more). If they had keys, it was under whatever authority Joseph has as stated in verse 15.

Likewise, Peter was given keys. Anyone else? Nah. They were obviously lost when he died.

I think the early members played a big part in spreading the new covenant (found in the BoM) to foreign lands, which is the context of this chapter. I don't disagree that they had some keys or authority for a time and helped to bring people to the truth.

But, both keys and authority can be taken from a person depending on their worthiness, this is made clear in D&C 121 and the JST of Mark 9.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 2:42 pm the quite by Joseph above about not receiving revelation for those higher in authority,

The letter to John Carter? I see no problem with it, among a righteous church there is obviously order. That letter specifically addresses confusion about when someone comes claiming visions to lead the church, which to my knowledge happened a few times. Our only disagreement here would be about who actually holds authority.

I'll be honest, I'm really not interested in debating this any further at this point. In this very post you are misrepresenting past discussions we've had and what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith say. Maybe you've changed some of your views or maybe your just trying to do damage control. Who knows?

I could spend hours combing through our past conversations and expounding on scriptures and in the end when your back is against the wall and you don't have a good answer, you'll just start mocking me with pig faces or accusing me of being insincere, etc. Plus you claim that this is all just entertainment for you and that you aren't actually interested in genuine dialog. So this is a pointless exercise for me.

LOL.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 4:23 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 4:01 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:55 pm I could spend hours combing through our past conversations and expounding on scriptures and in the end when your back is against the wall and you don't have a good answer, you'll just start mocking me with pig faces or accusing me of being insincere, etc.

LOL.

And there it is.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 4:35 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 4:23 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 4:01 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 3:55 pm I could spend hours combing through our past conversations and expounding on scriptures and in the end when your back is against the wall and you don't have a good answer, you'll just start mocking me with pig faces or accusing me of being insincere, etc.

LOL.

And there it is.

"YoU dOn'T hAvE a GoOd AnSwEr!" *Proceeds to not address a single thing in my post and instead create an imaginary ad-hominem scenario where I'm obviously the loser*

There it is, indeed. Again, we both agree completely! "This is a pointless exercise for me." I addressed your post, you can have your crown of delusional victory.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:45 pm So to sum up, you believe Joseph Smith was teaching falsehoods on this point. Well, I disagree. I believe that he was right and you are wrong.

D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

2 Nephi 33
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.
2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.