LDS Freedom Forum

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 8:41 am

I know that there have been quite a few church presidents and apostles who have claimed to have seen visions, including seeing Christ post Joseph Smith and post Manifesto. I'm working on compiling as many of these accounts as I can find.

I would very much like to see this. There have only been 17 presidents of the Church, so it is a short list to work from as far as Presidents of the Church go. The following will help you with this list.

President Brigham Young - Said he hadn't had seen either the Father or the son after being president for 12 years and then again 17 years.
John Taylor - Unknown
Wilford Woodruff - I'm pretty sure he didn't, but can't find the reference (It is clear that the Declaration on Polygamy was not dictated by Christ)
Lorenzo Snow - Unknown
Joseph F. Smith - Had not - Testified before Congress that he had not received so much as a revelation more than any Methodist. - 1904-1907
Heber J, Grant - Had not - GC April 1899 and a letter to his sister April 13, 1926 and GC 1942 - President for 24 years
George Albert Smith - Had not - March 25, 1950 - President 5 years
David O. McKay - Said he had not in an interview on May 5, 1961 - President for 10 years
Joseph Fielding Smith - Unknown
Harold B. Lee - Spencer W. Kimball -
Ezra Taft Benson - Unknown
Howard W. Hunter - Unknown
Gordon B. Hinckley - Say that all his revelations come by the Holy Ghost - Multiple interviews throughout his presidency
Thomas S. Monson - I remember him saying no and don't ask, but didn't look for the quote.
Russell M. Nelson - As far as I can tell, not yet. 8 years ago when he was the Sr. Apostle he said he didn't and that his special witness was from the spirit which he related to anyone having the same witness when taking the Sacrament.

Also:
Apostle David B. Haight - Had not seen - May 1976, had seen at a distance - 1986 (about a year before he died)
Dallin H Oaks - Has said multiple times that he has not seen and says that none of the other 15 leaders of the church have either.)
George Q. Cannon -

Some who have seen Christ in Vision:
Melvin J. Ballard - April 1920
Hugh B. Brown - Recounted by Harold B. Lee - not sure on the date
Christoffel Golden - Recounted by Scott Duke - not sure on the date
Quentin Cook - Jan. 26, 2019

Let me know if you want any of the quotes that I used to create this list.

~Seeker

I'm still working on the list. Many of these experiences were only shared privately, not publicly over the pulpit in Conference, so they're a little hard to find.

Just off the top of my head,

Brigham Young spoke of multiple visions that he had, including one were he spent time in the eternities and saw all about the pre-existance and afterlife.

John Taylor said he saw Christ and had several other visions.

Wilford Woodruff said he saw Christ and had several other visions.

Lorenzo Snow's granddaughter said that he told her he saw Christ.

Heber J. Grant said he saw Christ in the 1880s. I shared the quote on here recently.

Heber C. Kimball had multiple visions.

LeGrand Richard's said he saw Christ.

Boyd K. Packer strongly suggested that he and other members of the Q12 had seen Christ.

George Q. Cannon said he saw Christ.

Joseph F. Smith had multiple visions.

Etc.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:49 am

Is the fact that President Oaks said that he received his testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost, instead of being converted by a miraculous vision from being a vile sinner who was trying to destroy the church of God to being Saint in an instant, supposed to be some kind of smoking gun? Because it isn't.

gruden2.0 wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:57 am

marc wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 3:18 pm
Maybe. Nowadays, though, and as a side note, I don't post near as much as I used to. Most posts do very little to help in my lifelong pursuit of seeking His face, rending the veil, partaking of the fruit, having continuous access to the tree of life, you get my drift. Sometimes I do get sidetracked and carried away with posts like this, but it's really all just noise. For example and just for the sake of argument, let's say it is absolutely His church and RMN is absolutely a prophet, seer, and revelator. It does nothing for anyone except to say he/she is a member of that church. But being a member doesn't vindicate anyone anymore than baptizing a bag of sand without the Holy Ghost does any good to save someone as Joseph Smith once pointed out. This is why subjects like calling & election and Second Comforter are all that really interest me. Quite honestly, I don't think as many members of the church have "received" the gift of the Holy Ghost like they think they have or pretend to. Most members probably don't spend more than five minutes at a time in daily prayers. But I digress; I'm rambling now.

You don't need a church at all to receive the gifts of the Spirit. God has assured us He is no respecter of persons, He will give you want you're entitled to have if you've fulfilled the requirements.

Years ago I read an interesting article written by a descendant of David Whitmer. He had all the things you stated you wanted, but without a church (he probably would have been kicked out anyway, like all the others). One interesting comment he made was that worthiness wasn't as important a criteria for serving God as willingness to do whatever God asks you to do. Your willingness qualifies you, whereas the church emphasizes worthiness.

Yes! I couldn't agree more.

Can you please find that article?

Thanks,
Seeker

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:29 am

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:26 am YES! I saw this incorrectly, basically my whole life, until just a few years ago.... if ye are willing to serve Him, ye are called to to His work!

I think there has to be some balance here. A willingness to follow Christ will naturally bring about a lifestyle that shuns sin. (increase in worthiness)

Yes, that is correct, but we are worthy the instant we have the mighty change of heart so that we no more desire to do sin. This is an important point because some people think you make the commitment and then have to prove it by your actions before God will bless you. The scriptures show that people are blessed at the moment of conversion/commitment. There is no minimum time required to prove worthiness. God knows when you are truly committed.

From that moment of righteous desire and faith, we become worthy, even when we fail to live perfectly. We are "Alive in Christ" so that our errors are white as snow while we are committing them, just as they are with little children. Thus the spirit can remain with us and strive with us even when we do things that aren't good. It pricks our hearts to do better. We can kick against the picks of the spirit and its called kicking against the pricks. If we turn back to sin so that our hearts again desire evil, then we have fallen and the spirit will cease to strive with us at which point we are ripe for destruction. Until we are ripe for destruction, as long as we desire to do good and follow the promptings of the spirit, the spirit will remain with us striving with us and leading us to greater things.

It is all about our hearts and true desires. Repentance isn't about not doing a particular sin. It's about changing our heart to desire good and to reject evil. Righteousness isn't about not doing sins, its about having the Holy Ghost/voice of the Lord given to those who have committed/been converted with faith. The spirit doesn't come to us by obedience to the laws of the church. It comes by faith which brings the mighty change of heart.

~Seeker

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 1:57 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:29 am

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:26 am YES! I saw this incorrectly, basically my whole life, until just a few years ago.... if ye are willing to serve Him, ye are called to to His work!

I think there has to be some balance here. A willingness to follow Christ will naturally bring about a lifestyle that shuns sin. (increase in worthiness)

Yes, that is correct, but we are worthy the instant we have the mighty change of heart so that we no more desire to do sin. This is an important point because some people think you make the commitment and then have to prove it by your actions before God will bless you. The scriptures show that people are blessed at the moment of conversion/commitment. There is no minimum time required to prove worthiness. God knows when you are truly committed.

From that moment of righteous desire and faith, we become worthy, even when we fail to live perfectly. We are "Alive in Christ" so that our errors are white as snow while we are committing them, just as they are with little children. Thus the spirit can remain with us and strive with us even when we do things that aren't good. It pricks our hearts to do better. We can kick against the picks of the spirit and its called kicking against the pricks. If we turn back to sin so that our hearts again desire evil, then we have fallen and the spirit will cease to strive with us at which point we are ripe for destruction. Until we are ripe for destruction, as long as we desire to do good and follow the promptings of the spirit, the spirit will remain with us striving with us and leading us to greater things.

It is all about our hearts and true desires. Repentance isn't about not doing a particular sin. It's about changing our heart to desire good and to reject evil. Righteousness isn't about not doing sins, its about having the Holy Ghost/voice of the Lord given to those who have committed/been converted with faith. The spirit doesn't come to us by obedience to the laws of the church. It comes by faith which brings the mighty change of heart.

~Seeker

This is beautiful truth and reflects my own personal experience with repentance and 'coming unto the Lord'(no, I haven't seen Him or anything like that, I do believe He spoke to me once and reminded me that I better change my ways and that He loves me and He counts on me)... I could read about folks' personal experiences with the Lord ALL DAY LONG.
Nothing motivates me more to help others come to know Christ in this same life changing manner as folks testimonies that have 'been there and done that'.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:33 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 8:46 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 6:58 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:49 am
I'm amazed you've stuck to your losing argument after so many pages and responses.

Bishops are leaders "within" the church, they are clearly not leaders of the church. Everyone knows leadership is at the head, but I'm sure one more person saying the same thing will matter to you.

Is the Bishop the head of the ward? Yes or no?

He is limited in what he can and cannot do based on the policies spelled out in the Bishop's handbook of instruction. His hands are tied by those policies and his authority is limited to his role as spelled out in the handbook. As I stated previously, my father was a Bishop also and had his C&E and had seen Christ. He did his best to lead people to those blessings as a Bishop, but was very limited in his ability to do so and had limited success as a result of the organization and what the members were willing to accept.

Can you please detail the vision your friend had and how it related to his calling as the Bishop.

Thanks,
Seeker

No, I'm not going to share the details of sacred visions that were told to me in confidence. Certainly not publicly on a forum full of indviduals with an ax to grind against the church who will undoubtedly twist or outright reject these things.

I see no problems with sharing sacred visions, even with people who would twist or reject them. Prophets have dealt with criticism and rejection for years. I do understand things told in confidence for example a friend of mine prayed to know what he needed to do to make his calling and election sure and was given specific instruction for him that didn't apply to anyone else and was personal in nature. Now, if the revelation was for the ward, then I would expect that it was revealed to the ward the way King Benjamin did to his people. If it was for him personally and not for the ward, then I would expect he would have kept it personally and like I said it wasn't an example of the lord leading the church or even the ward. It sounds to me like it was a personal experience that was not revealed to the ward or for the ward.

You might enjoy reading about the first time I met Christ and how he healed me. It is possibly the most sacred experience of my life. It's written in a self help format geared toward helping people achieve financial and other forms of success because, that is what I needed and wanted to share with others, but the experience was extremely powerful and spiritual. Utterly life changing in multiple ways. HERE

In the book above, I talk about a meditation process I was taught to help people overcome challenges and gain insights or information or to see/experience anything. It is a similar process to the one Nephi used to see and understand Lehi's vision. Here is an interview I did with a woman, (Melissa), who I guided through a meditation process I learned to help her overcome some of her personal challenges and also to have a personal visit with the Lord. She shares here experience, what she saw and felt, the questions and concerns she she asked him and his responses. You can listen to the interview with her HERE

Here is a sacred revelation my wife and I had called The Circle of Perfection

Here's another one called The Root

Here's a sacred vision I had as a missionary in which I saw and understood D&C 88:40-50 - the day I was shown and "comprehended God, being quickened in him and by him"

Here is the combined revelations myself and others had when Christ taught us the atonement in person over several sessions. It includes direct quotes, journal entries and detail about what he showed and told us regarding the atonement. - The Atonement of Jesus Christ: Understanding the Mystery, Becoming One

My point is that witnesses and revelations not shared are wasted. Who cares how sacred the experience was. No one can diminish a sacred experience's value by not believing it or criticizing it. If they are valuable, then they should be shared and not hidden under a bush. We should put them on a candle sticks and let them shine for the world. Sharing a witness of Christ is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only Satan and those deceived by him would want people to not share their sacred witness and first hand experiences with Christ.

Matt. 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Ask you friend if you can share what they shared with you. Keep their name anonymous if you like. Also, ask them if the experience was focused on them individually or if it was a revelation for their calling and ward. I'd be interested to hear more about it.

~Seeker

marc wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:15 am

gruden2.0 wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:57 am

marc wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 3:18 pm
Maybe. Nowadays, though, and as a side note, I don't post near as much as I used to. Most posts do very little to help in my lifelong pursuit of seeking His face, rending the veil, partaking of the fruit, having continuous access to the tree of life, you get my drift. Sometimes I do get sidetracked and carried away with posts like this, but it's really all just noise. For example and just for the sake of argument, let's say it is absolutely His church and RMN is absolutely a prophet, seer, and revelator. It does nothing for anyone except to say he/she is a member of that church. But being a member doesn't vindicate anyone anymore than baptizing a bag of sand without the Holy Ghost does any good to save someone as Joseph Smith once pointed out. This is why subjects like calling & election and Second Comforter are all that really interest me. Quite honestly, I don't think as many members of the church have "received" the gift of the Holy Ghost like they think they have or pretend to. Most members probably don't spend more than five minutes at a time in daily prayers. But I digress; I'm rambling now.

You don't need a church at all to receive the gifts of the Spirit. God has assured us He is no respecter of persons, He will give you want you're entitled to have if you've fulfilled the requirements.

Years ago I read an interesting article written by a descendant of David Whitmer. He had all the things you stated you wanted, but without a church (he probably would have been kicked out anyway, like all the others). One interesting comment he made was that worthiness wasn't as important a criteria for serving God as willingness to do whatever God asks you to do. Your willingness qualifies you, whereas the church emphasizes worthiness.

Agreed with the exception that willingness to do whatever God asks you to do is what makes one worthy. But I understand what you and David Whitmer were/are saying.

Well, true to a certain point. This person drew a distinction between the two, so I'm just repeating conceptually what he stated. Basically the willingness to serve God trumped all other considerations in his mind and experience. In my observation it doesn't factor into the church's view of worthiness that they promote at all. For the church it is obedience, which isn't how this man phrased it, it was more a self-propelled desire to serve God in whatever ways He asked, and he had some interesting experiences of what he had been asked to do. It was a very interesting message, I wish I had a link to share.

One thing that was clear was that serving God is not the same thing as serving in a church. God can give a person plenty to do through direct communication without the involvement of a church, which is what this man did. He seemed like one of those holy men that the world knew nothing about.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 2:55 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:33 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 8:46 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 6:58 am

Is the Bishop the head of the ward? Yes or no?

He is limited in what he can and cannot do based on the policies spelled out in the Bishop's handbook of instruction. His hands are tied by those policies and his authority is limited to his role as spelled out in the handbook. As I stated previously, my father was a Bishop also and had his C&E and had seen Christ. He did his best to lead people to those blessings as a Bishop, but was very limited in his ability to do so and had limited success as a result of the organization and what the members were willing to accept.

Can you please detail the vision your friend had and how it related to his calling as the Bishop.

Thanks,
Seeker

No, I'm not going to share the details of sacred visions that were told to me in confidence. Certainly not publicly on a forum full of indviduals with an ax to grind against the church who will undoubtedly twist or outright reject these things.

I see no problems with sharing sacred visions, even with people who would twist or reject them. Prophets have dealt with criticism and rejection for years. I do understand things told in confidence for example a friend of mine prayed to know what he needed to do to make his calling and election sure and was given specific instruction for him that didn't apply to anyone else and was personal in nature. Now, if the revelation was for the ward, then I would expect that it was revealed to the ward the way King Benjamin did to his people. If it was for him personally and not for the ward, then I would expect he would have kept it personally and like I said it wasn't an example of the lord leading the church or even the ward. It sounds to me like it was a personal experience that was not revealed to the ward or for the ward.

You might enjoy reading about the first time I met Christ and how he healed me. It is possibly the most sacred experience of my life. It's written in a self help format geared toward helping people achieve financial and other forms of success because, that is what I needed and wanted to share with others, but the experience was extremely powerful and spiritual. Utterly life changing in multiple ways. HERE

In the book above, I talk about a meditation process I was taught to help people overcome challenges and gain insights or information or to see/experience anything. It is a similar process to the one Nephi used to see and understand Lehi's vision. Here is an interview I did with a woman, (Melissa), who I guided through a meditation process I learned to help her overcome some of her personal challenges and also to have a personal visit with the Lord. She shares here experience, what she saw and felt, the questions and concerns she she asked him and his responses. You can listen to the interview with her HERE

Here is a sacred revelation my wife and I had called The Circle of Perfection

Here's another one called The Root

Here's a sacred vision I had as a missionary in which I saw and understood D&C 88:40-50 - the day I was shown and "comprehended God, being quickened in him and by him"

Here is the combined revelations myself and others had when Christ taught us the atonement in person over several sessions. It includes direct quotes, journal entries and detail about what he showed and told us regarding the atonement. - The Atonement of Jesus Christ: Understanding the Mystery, Becoming One

My point is that witnesses and revelations not shared are wasted. Who cares how sacred the experience was. No one can diminish a sacred experience's value by not believing it or criticizing it. If they are valuable, then they should be shared and not hidden under a bush. We should put them on a candle sticks and let them shine for the world. Sharing a witness of Christ is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only Satan and those deceived by him would want people to not share their sacred witness and first hand experiences with Christ.

Matt. 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Ask you friend if you can share what they shared with you. Keep their name anonymous if you like. Also, ask them if the experience was focused on them individually or if it was a revelation for their calling and ward. I'd be interested to hear more about it.

~Seeker

I'll take a look at the experiences you shared when I get a chance, but I'm not sharing the sacred experiences I know of publicly on this forum.

The Savior instructed us not to give that which is holy to the dogs or cast our pearls before swine. And there are most definitely scoffers on this forum.

gruden2.0 wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 2:58 pmWell, true to a certain point. This person drew a distinction between the two, so I'm just repeating conceptually what he stated. Basically the willingness to serve God trumped all other considerations in his mind and experience. In my observation it doesn't factor into the church's view of worthiness that they promote at all. For the church it is obedience, which isn't how this man phrased it, it was more a self-propelled desire to serve God in whatever ways He asked, and he had some interesting experiences of what he had been asked to do. It was a very interesting message, I wish I had a link to share.

One thing that was clear was that serving God is not the same thing as serving in a church. God can give a person plenty to do through direct communication without the involvement of a church, which is what this man did. He seemed like one of those holy men that the world knew nothing about.

I believe words matter. If you reread what I wrote, you'll note that to DO whatever God asks, command, requires, etc (obedience, service, love, etc) is all encompassing, just to reiterate. Thus by DOing whatever God requires makes one worthy. You'll also note that I said nothing about the church. That was deliberate.

Faith and works comes to mind. James had a pretty cool brother.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 6:58 am Is the Bishop the head of the ward? Yes or no?

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant because wards are not the head of the church, they are at the very bottom. It's like a Private First Class being in charge of a Private, so what, they're both Privates.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 9:49 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 6:58 am Is the Bishop the head of the ward? Yes or no?

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant

Are the members of a ward members of the church? Yes or no?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 9:59 pm Are the members of a ward members of the church? Yes or no?

Of course they are, but everyone at the ward level is a meaningless pawn as far as leadership for the whole church goes. The leaders at the head of the church could do away with ward and stake leadership entirely. Again, we are not talking about leadership within the church, we are talking about leadership of the church.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:07 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 9:59 pm Are the members of a ward members of the church? Yes or no?

Of course they are

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

So the bishop is the leader of the members of the church in his ward. When the Bishop receives a vision related to his calling or if any member receives a vision, then they are being led by visions. Which means that the church (body of Christ) is being led by visions.

As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well.

So, yes, the church is most definitely being led at least in part by visions.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:07 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 9:59 pm Are the members of a ward members of the church? Yes or no?

Of course they are

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

So the bishop is the leader of the members of the church in his ward. When the Bishop receives a vision related to his calling or if any member receives a vision, then they are being led by visions. Which means that the church (body of Christ) is being led by visions.

As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well.

So, yes, the church is most definitely being led at least in part by visions.

You actually do have a point here. In the scriptures, the Lord didn't use the lines of authority the way we do now. He went to the lay members directly with his visions and revelations and called them directly to be prophets, bypassing the Church leadership entirely, even when they were righteous. That's how he led people in the scriptures. Here's a few examples:

How Amos was Called to be a prophet:

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. – Amos 3:7

Amos was one of these prophets who was called by God to prophesy to the people. By studying Amos, we can learn a number of important points regarding how the Lord calls prophets. Once we see how the Lord called Amos, we can see that he follows the same pattern throughout the scriptures as he calls other prophets.

Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son. He had no claim to authority or leadership among the Children of Israel. God called him while he was a shepherd. He was called by revelation from the Lord directly, not from a man, church or set of men.

14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel. – Amos 7:14-15

He was called to prophesy to a group of people he had no authority over until this moment when God called him directly and gave him authority.

Now that we see how the Lord calls prophets, let's look at an example where the church is organized and led by a righteous prophet who was present. Notice that the Lord ignored the line of authority entirely and created His own line directly to Samuel.

How Samuel was called to be a prophet:
Samuel was working for a righteous High priest named Eli who prophesied to his mother that even though she was barren, she would be blessed with a child. Samuel was the child Eli prophesied she would have. When he was about 11 years old the Lord called to him. It is notable that while Eli was a righteous high priest, and a proven prophet, the Lord did not call Samuel through Eli rather the Lord called to Samuel directly. In fact, Eli wasn't even informed about what the Lord was doing before hand. Teh Lord called to Samuel 3 times before Eli figured out what was happening and instructed Samuel to respond to the Lord and believed all that the Lord said to Samuel.

7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.
…
8 And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child.
9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
11 ¶ And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
…
18 And Samuel told him (Eli) every whit, and hid nothing from him. And he said, It is the Lord: let him do what seemeth him good.
19 ¶ And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beer-sheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord. – 1 Samuel 3:7-20

Notice that again, Eli had authority over Israel as the High priest. Samuel was 11 years old and had not been given authority over the church until the Lord spoke to him and gave him the revelation about what He was going to do to Israel. At that moment he gained authority over Israel, not from the church, but from God.

Here's another example from the Book of Mormon.

How Lehi was called to be a prophet:
Lehi lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jeremiah when many prophets had been called of God. He was influenced by these prophets and prayed to God on behalf of the people. His prayer resulted in a series of visions in which he saw God and understood the Lords judgments against Jerusalem. As a result of these visions, Lehi was called by God to prophesy with all the other prophets. God led his people through the visions to Lehi and not through Jeremiah's father, Hilkiah, who was a righteous man and the High priest over the church.

18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. – 1 Nephi 1:18

It important to note that even though Jeremiah’s father Hilkiah was the High Priest over the church and a righteous man, he did not call his son Jeremiah, Lehi or any of the other prophets of his day. Each of them was called by God directly, independent of the priesthood and church organization.

Other prophets that were called by God directly via vision or the voice of the lord and not through the organized leadership of the church include: Moses, Ezekiel, Joseph of Egypt, Noah, Jonah, Zephaniah, Hosea, Joel, Zechariah, Haggi, Habakkuk, Nahum, Obadiah, Anna, Alma, King Benjamin, Samuel the Lamanite, Amulek (though he could have been called after his vision), etc.

So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 7:32 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 1:50 am Cheers brother. Number three is definitely true, but it also doesn't have to be true to the exclusion of choice 1 or 2.

I think it is choices 3 + 2.

That chapter had been an important one for me for years now. All of those in 3 Nephi with Christ speaking about the time of the Jews and the time of the Gentiles. Anyhow.....

What does His Church/Community mean?

Church of the Lamb?
Fullness of the priesthood / His presence?
Those who have at least received the Holy Ghost, who have at least come through the gate?
???

Well the LORD defined it as:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. - D&C 10:67 (1828)

And added:

Wait a little longer, until you shall have my word, my rock, my church, and my gospel, that you may know of a surety my doctrine. - D&C 11:16 (1829)

For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. - D&C 18:4-5 (1829)

Also one thing that sticks out to me is that the bringing forth the BoM by Joseph / the Gentiles seems to have just placed the dominoes just right so that before the Endtime the BoM would fall into the hands of the people who will make up the foundation of the Endtime remnant of Jacob. It was done this way to fulfill prophecy and the covenants that the LORD made concerning, a remnant, the seed of the BoM people who are of the house of Israel. (3N21:1-7)

True, my 3rd option is more about making a point. 1 vs 2, with 3 being an encompassing idea.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I figured it was a good time to finally make a post considering the two threads about leaving the “church”… because in order to evaluate your choice to stay or leave, it would be good to define what it is.

Friends of mine could “never” leave because they believe no matter what it teaches or what the leaders do, that it’s still Christ’s. I feel this chapter proves the inaccuracy of that belief.

3 Nephi 27:9 is also important when defining Christ’s church.

The BoM has given us so much information about the church, how it operates, and who is part of it. I’m saddened that only a fraction of those who supposedly believe the BoM to be true actually understand what it teaches. Bold claim, but I’m making it.

3 Nephi 27
8 ...if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 ...therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
(interesting demarcation between the works of men and works of the devil)


12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:42 am
So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

You completely ignored the part where I said, "As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well."

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with what Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said.

Jesus:

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

Joseph Smith:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.

TPJS, 21

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:42 am
So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

You completely ignored the part where I said, "As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well."

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with what Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said.

Jesus:

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

Joseph Smith:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.

TPJS, 21

Somebody better tell Abinadi…

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 8:39 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 6:08 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 1:42 am
So, you could say that the Lord gives visions to people, the lowest rung on the ladder, and they preach his word and share the visions they had and thereby the people are told the Lord's will. Of course, this is not taught or following in the church today. If a lay member had a vision or a revelation for the church or any group of people who they were not first given authority over,

Now that's how God worked in the past. But this is not acceptable in the church today. It is commonly taught that God no longer works this way and that now God only gives top down revelations to people who are already in authority over whom they are given the revelation. Amos could not be called by God while he farmed and given a vision and command to prophecy to the LDS Church because the leaders teach that the people should reject such self proclaimed prophets.

But, since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is reasonable to expect that God will continue to do what God has already done. And, therefore, it is reasonable to accept that God will lead the church by giving revelations and visions to the lowest unordained members and thereby call them to prophecy as He sees fit.

~Seeker

You completely ignored the part where I said, "As for the top heads of the entire church, we have a record of at least some of them having had visions, too. So that aspect is covered as well."

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with what Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith said.

Jesus:

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

Joseph Smith:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.

TPJS, 21

Somebody better tell Abinadi…

Not all dispensation are the same. Joseph Smith is the prophet called to open this dispensation and the revelations and teachings he gave us are what we are to follow. Not the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

Plus no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance. That should tell those who claim that the brethren are evil and the church completely apostate something.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:21 pm So, yes, the church is most definitely being led at least in part by visions.

No it's not. Well over 90% of Bishops get jack. 100% of Bishops are restricted from acting on anything other than handbook. The handbook does not allow for bishops having visions.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 11:45 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 8:41 am

I know that there have been quite a few church presidents and apostles who have claimed to have seen visions, including seeing Christ post Joseph Smith and post Manifesto. I'm working on compiling as many of these accounts as I can find.

I would very much like to see this. There have only been 17 presidents of the Church, so it is a short list to work from as far as Presidents of the Church go. The following will help you with this list.

President Brigham Young - Said he hadn't had seen either the Father or the son after being president for 12 years and then again 17 years.
John Taylor - Unknown
Wilford Woodruff - I'm pretty sure he didn't, but can't find the reference (It is clear that the Declaration on Polygamy was not dictated by Christ)
Lorenzo Snow - Unknown
Joseph F. Smith - Had not - Testified before Congress that he had not received so much as a revelation more than any Methodist. - 1904-1907
Heber J, Grant - Had not - GC April 1899 and a letter to his sister April 13, 1926 and GC 1942 - President for 24 years
George Albert Smith - Had not - March 25, 1950 - President 5 years
David O. McKay - Said he had not in an interview on May 5, 1961 - President for 10 years
Joseph Fielding Smith - Unknown
Harold B. Lee - Spencer W. Kimball -
Ezra Taft Benson - Unknown
Howard W. Hunter - Unknown
Gordon B. Hinckley - Say that all his revelations come by the Holy Ghost - Multiple interviews throughout his presidency
Thomas S. Monson - I remember him saying no and don't ask, but didn't look for the quote.
Russell M. Nelson - As far as I can tell, not yet. 8 years ago when he was the Sr. Apostle he said he didn't and that his special witness was from the spirit which he related to anyone having the same witness when taking the Sacrament.

Also:
Apostle David B. Haight - Had not seen - May 1976, had seen at a distance - 1986 (about a year before he died)
Dallin H Oaks - Has said multiple times that he has not seen and says that none of the other 15 leaders of the church have either.)
George Q. Cannon -

Some who have seen Christ in Vision:
Melvin J. Ballard - April 1920
Hugh B. Brown - Recounted by Harold B. Lee - not sure on the date
Christoffel Golden - Recounted by Scott Duke - not sure on the date
Quentin Cook - Jan. 26, 2019

Let me know if you want any of the quotes that I used to create this list.

~Seeker

I'm still working on the list. Many of these experiences were only shared privately, not publicly over the pulpit in Conference, so they're a little hard to find.

Just off the top of my head,

Brigham Young spoke of multiple visions that he had, including one were he spent time in the eternities and saw all about the pre-existance and afterlife.

John Taylor said he saw Christ and had several other visions.

Wilford Woodruff said he saw Christ and had several other visions.

Lorenzo Snow's granddaughter said that he told her he saw Christ.

Heber J. Grant said he saw Christ in the 1880s. I shared the quote on here recently.

Heber C. Kimball had multiple visions.

LeGrand Richard's said he saw Christ.

Boyd K. Packer strongly suggested that he and other members of the Q12 had seen Christ.

George Q. Cannon said he saw Christ.

Joseph F. Smith had multiple visions.

Etc.

Can you please provide the quotes for each of these? I'd like to update my list.

~Seeker

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Not all dispensation are the same. Joseph Smith is the prophet called to open this dispensation and the revelations and teachings he gave us are what we are to follow. Not the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

I follow quite closely the teachings of Joseph, albeit I don’t agree with your interpretations. What he taught is also incredibly muddy if you don’t always trust second hand sources.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:01 am Plus no "Abinadi" has been sent to call the "evil" leaders and members of the church to repentance. That should tell those who claim that the brethren are evil and the church completely apostate something.

I don’t think many members would be willing to listen… just as in Abinadi’s day. The BoM has this incredible knack for foreshadowing.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 31st, 2022, 11:07 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 30th, 2022, 10:21 pm So, yes, the church is most definitely being led at least in part by visions.

No it's not. Well over 90% of Bishops get jack. 100% of Bishops are restricted from acting on anything other than handbook. The handbook does not allow for bishops having visions.

Bishops can have visions, but they cannot follow them or even the spirit if the instruction they receive contradict the handbooks or their leaders. This is well known and taught.

~Seeker