3 Nephi 21 disproves claims to Christ's church

[Seeker144k]

I've been pondering on some things taught in 3 Nephi 21 for the last several months. The entire chapter is a fascinating timeline of events that begins with the coming forth of the book of Mormon and ends with the building of the New Jerusalem and the literal gathering of Israel.

• Verses 1-11 reveal the "sign" (aka: book of Mormon) which will come forth to the Gentiles and then be brought from the Gentiles to the remnant of the house of Israel, as well as the ministry of Joseph Smith.
• Verses 12-21 describe a period of tribulation that will take place AFTER the BoM has been brought forth and BEFORE the building of the NJ.
• Verses 22-29 address the commencement of the work of the father, building the NJ, that Christ will be physically present with this group, and the process of gathering.

There's a lot to unpack, but I want to discuss what this reveals about Christ's church. First, it should be noted that we are considered Gentiles as referenced in the BoM. If you don't believe me, take it up with Joseph (D&C 109:60).

There is a single reference to His church in verse 22:

But if they (the Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Now, this is where the dilemma of current claims begins. If I'm not mistaken, Christ pointedly states that He will establish His church among the Gentiles (us) if we will repent. This occurs AFTER the BoM comes forth, AFTER the period of tribulation, and just before the NJ is built.

To my knowledge, the destruction in verses 12-21 has yet to occur. We still have our "chariots", there are still "lyings" and "whoredoms", and our cities have not been destroyed. Feel free to correct me if that observation is false, and we have already seen God's wrath post-Joseph's era.

What does that mean about claims of being Christ's "only" church that will "never fall away" if there is a FUTURE day in which He will establish His church among the Gentiles who repent? It means that these claims are false. This day has not come, and so His church will yet be established... either again, or for the first time.

I see three main conclusions that can be drawn:

1. Christ never established His church in Joseph's day (hence the need for it to be established).
2. His church was established but fell away (hence the need for it to be established again once the Gentiles have repented).
3. The Church of Christ is much more than what some men claim.

My vote is cast on option 3, I've written more about that here.

This isn't an "attack" of any sort, but an honest evaluation of Christ's words which were written specifically for you and me. Sooner or later, members of the LDS organization will have to come to grips with the fact that they've been lied to about Christ's true church.

These false claims have fulfilled prophecy:

"For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord" (2 Nephi 28:3)

My conclusion here is also consistent with 3 Nephi 16:10-14.

Anywho, that's enough for my midnight ramblings. God bless, friends.

Here's a related thread that may be of interest:
viewtopic.php?t=66667

Here are the requirements to be Christ's church.

3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

1 - Called after his name
2 - Built upon his Gospel

I know that the LDS church today is not built upon his gospel because they teach an incorrect gospel as part of their fundamental beliefs (articles of faith).

Here is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ that his church must be built on.

D&C 39:6
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

D&C 33:11-12
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;

3 Nephi 27:20-21
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Notice that it does not say, "these are the first principles and ordinances of my gospel", it says, "this IS my gospel". Every time Jesus defines his gospel, this is what he says it is: Faith in Christ, Repentance, baptism by water, Receive the Holy Ghost which will tell you all things that you should do. That's it, the end.

Each of these points that make up the fulness of his gospel are called "doctrines". We are told three times in the book of Mormon that these are the only doctrines of Christ and the only doctrines of the Father, son and Holy Ghost. We are told that any gospel that does not include the full list of doctrines or includes more doctrines than these is not Christ's gospel. We are specifically told that if we seek to establish more than these doctrines as Christ's doctrine, then we are not built on his rock and we are opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Here are a few examples:

Jesus says, "I will declare unto you my doctrine. And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me", then he proceeds to teach all of the doctrines that make up his gospel. He teaches them over and over again repeating them several times. After repeatedly teaching the doctrines that make up his gospel, he says,

3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Notice that he says that his doctrine is the rock and whoever builds on this rock the gates of hell will not prevail against them. He also says that if someone declares more or less than these doctrines and establishes it as his doctrine, it comes of evil, is not built on his rock and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

The same doctrines are also taught in 2 Nephi 31 after which Nephi says, "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the ONLY... doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

It is taught again in 2 Nephi 32 after which Nephi says, "Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh." If Christ has not manifest himself to you in the flesh, (like he hasn't to 98% of the church), then the only doctrine you're given is the handful of doctrines which make up the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which his church is built upon.

The Lord taught it again in D&C 10 saying,

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them (the Book of Mormon), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

And, again in D&C 18 which says,

2 Behold, I have manifested unto you, by my Spirit in many instances, that the things which you have written, (the Book of Mormon), are true; wherefore you know that they are true.
3 And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written, (the Book of Mormon);
4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

This is the key that the LDS church is missing. They teach more than these few doctrines and call them the doctrines of Christ and make them part of his gospel. They teach that tithing is a doctrine of Christ, and the word of wisdom, and the law of chastity and the endowment and temple sealings, and on, and on, and on... They teach that all these doctrines are Christ's doctrine and part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This false gospel is so fundamental to the current LDS theology that it is written into the articles of faith which say,

Articles of faith:
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The church says that "the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel are what Christ calls "the only" doctrines and the fulness of his gospel. The church then adds to the doctrines of Christ and expands his gospel into what is no longer recognized as his gospel. Jesus repeatedly says in the verses quoted above that adding to his doctrine and gospel "opens the gates of hell to receive such."

Even people on this forum have argued with me and others about what Christ's doctrine and gospel is because they accept what it taught in the LDS manuals, conference talks and Articles of Faith and do not accept what the scriptures clearly and repeatedly say on this topic.

I personally not only understand what the Lord and the scriptures say about the doctrines of Christ, which I shared above. But I understand WHY these are the only doctrines of Christ that make up the fulness of his gospel and why adding to or taking away from this list comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

We are promised that anyone who follows the doctrines/Gospel of Christ as spelled out will receive the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 31
For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

The Holy Ghost will tell you all things that you should do.

2 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost is the voice of the Lord:

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

If you receive and follow the Holy Ghost, then you are redeemed, you are a member of Christ's church, and you are considered righteous. If you do not have/follow the Holy Ghost, then you are not a member of Christ's church, you are not redeemed, and you are wicked.

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

If you follow the Holy Ghost, it will bring you through the veil to God.

D&C 84
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

We are specifically told not to receive anything as truth that was not given to us by the spirit of truth/voice of the Lord.

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

Alma 30
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

Once you have the Holy Ghost/the voice of the Lord, to direct you, it will tell you all things that you should do and if you follow it alone, it will lead you to back to God. If you "follow the prophet", or other leaders of the church then you are relying on the arm of flesh and will not get back to God.

2 Nephi 28
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 4
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

Even when prophets are speaking, we follow the Holy Ghost and not the prophet or the position. If they are speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost, then that power will carry the message to our hearts and we will feel it come through the Holy Ghost and not the man or position.

D&C 50
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

2 Nephi 33
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., of the First Presidency answered the question, "When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?" saying,

“And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68:2-4.)

The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”; yet only when they do speak as “moved upon” is what they say considered scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application.

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”? I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto, so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.” In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak.”

Why is anything less than the doctrine of Christ not considered his gospel and considered false?
Because anything less is not enough for a person to obtain the Holy Ghost and witness that they have received it.

Why is anything more than the doctrine of Christ not considered his gospel and considered false?
The gospel tells us what is required to have and follow the Holy Ghost which then shows us and tells us all things that we should do. Any more instruction given beyond what is required to receive the Holy Ghost detracts from following the spirit and degrades the commandment to allow the Holy Ghost to show you all things that you should do. It creates a precedence and expectation for following someone other than God through the Holy Ghost.

If, for example, you say, paying tithing is a doctrine of Christ and part of his gospel, then the Holy Ghost cannot override that instruction because the Holy Ghost cannot teach contrary to the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, when you follow the Holy Ghost, guided by the scriptures, we find that not everyone is supposed to pay tithing. The Lord specifically teaches in the scriptures that the poor who do not have more than their needs should not pay tithing because they have no excess or increase. This was the practice in the church under the direction of Joseph Smith but was later changed under the direction of Lorenzo Snow because the church was going bankrupt. The Lord didn't change his instruction that the poor and those without increase should not pay tithing. Those who follow the spirit will know whether or not they should be paying tithing according to the commandment of the Lord, and the spirit will teach them why. Those who follow men will pay tithing even when the Lord commands them not to. They essentially act contrary to the Lord's will, without realizing it. Because they follow the arm of flesh and do not put their trust in that spirit that teaches them all things, they never learn the lesson that tithing is intended to teach them. They mistakenly believe that tithing is like other offerings which are not regulated by specific instructions regarding when to pay and how to calculate how much to pay. if you don't do the right thing, in the right way, then you don't get the right blessing. Paying tithing the way you pay other offerings gains you the blessings of other offerings, but not the blessings associated with tithing and so the windows of heaven are not opened up so that there is not enough room to receive the blessings, because that is a promise specifically associated with paying tithing in a specific way, and not associated with paying offerings.

So it is with everything. If you do not learn to listen to and rely on the Holy Ghost to be your guide in all things, then you will end up like the Terrestrial people who accepted the testimony of Christ and his gospel but were "blinded by the craftiness of men" because they trusted in the arm of flesh and not in the spirit which leads us to do good.

This is why the church today is under condemnation and has been since 1832, (two years after the church was organized), when the Lord said the following:

D&C 84
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received (The doctrine of Christ and the Gospel as taught in the Book of Mormon)—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

The church has changed the doctrines of Christ and teaches a false version of the gospel that adds to the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It teaches people to "follow the prophet" rather than to not trust in the arm of flesh. It teaches them that we can not trust in the spirit if the spirit tells us to do things contrary to our church and its leaders, (which means that our church leaders tell us all things that we should do). It teaches us that the voice of the Lord is subject to the dictates of men, church policy, and the philosophies of men mingled with scripture found in church talks and manuals and especially the Bishop's/Stake President's handbook of instruction. It tells our leaders to follow the handbooks of instruction rather than the Holy Ghost to determine what to do in various situations. It teaches the commandments of men which have a form of godliness but are in direct denial of the very power thereof which comes through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Until this is corrected in each of our lives, we will remain condemned. Until it is corrected in the church, the church will remain condemned. If you are not acquainted with the voice of the Lord, then you are not his sheep because his sheep hear his voice and obey HIM, not the hired help who sometimes speak for him and often do not.

~Seeker

[Gadianton Slayer]

But he was equally aware that the establishment of the Lord's church would continue and could not be stopped until it had filled the whole earth.

From what I know there are three instances where "filling the whole earth" is referenced, and none are about His church. D&C 65:2 states that the *gospel* will roll forth, which isn't the church. Both D&C 109:72 and Daniel 2 reference a stone (the kingdom of God) that will roll forth. Joseph made a clear distinction between the church and kingdom, specifically saying that the kingdom Daniel saw was not the church:

“There is a distinction between the church of God and the kingdom of God. The laws of the kingdom are not designed to affect our salvation hereafter. It is an entire, distinct, and separate government. The church is a spiritual matter and a spiritual kingdom; but the kingdom which Daniel saw was not a spiritual kingdom (was NOT the church), but was designed to be got up for the safety and salvation of the Saints by protecting them in their religious rights and worship. Anything that would tolerate man in the worship of his God under his own vine and fig tree would be tolerated of God.” (Council of Fifty, vol. 1, pp. [201]-[203])

[Seeker144k]

The gentiles are offered the fulness twice and reject it twice. Here is the Lord describing the next time.

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Yes, this is exactly what I wrote above that the church is doing today.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

Friends of mine could “never” leave because they believe no matter what it teaches or what the leaders do, that it’s still Christ’s. I feel this chapter proves the inaccuracy of that belief.

By Jesus own words, the criteria are:

• It must be called in my name.
• It must be built on my gospel.

The true gospel requires that nothing more or less than "this" be taught as the doctrine of Christ.

The church teaches more than this as Christ's doctrine and gospel. Therefore, it cannot be his church, even if it is called in his name.
Hence the church was placed under condemnation and remains under condemnation until it repents because, "whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me." - D&C 84

And anything that teaches not to trust in his voice or to trust in the precepts of men over his voice is his enemy, not his church.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

The Lord's church will need to be set in order again before the righteous Remnant of Ephraim from within the church lead the final gathering and building of the New Jerusalem, but it is nevertheless still his one true church.

The setting in order will be the return to the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ONLY and true doctrine of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 31
Nephi teaches the doctrine of Christ that makes up the gospel and concludes by saying:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the ONLY and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

This is the setting in order of the church. When this is done, then the church will be set in order and Christ will again be placed at its head.

~Seeker

[Jashon]

Semantic argumentation is difficult and complex.

That said, it's important to note that an 1828 dictionary is not the one to use in order to search out possible meanings in the Book of Mormon. There's plenty of older King James biblical language in the Book of Mormon, with older meanings, and there's also a substantial amount of earlier nonbiblical meaning. In other words, if we go strictly with 1828 definitions, we're going to get meaning wrong in many cases. Look at the adverb again in Ether 14:29. The older meaning 'back' used with the verb drive isn't in Webster's 1828.

[Seeker144k]

Before I answer your question, keep in mind that our bodies are Telestial as is the church. We live in a Telestial realm. So what do I think it means for Him to establish His church? Well, with reference to 3 Nephi 21, it is a body of believers (and doers), I'll just quote D&C 1 which is the preface of the entire canon. This section constitutes the Lord’s preface to the doctrines, covenants, and commandments given in this dispensation:

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually

The Book of Mormon teaches that what makes it the only true and living church is if it is called in his name and correctly teaches his doctrine that makes up his gospel. If it teaches an incorrect gospel, then is isn't the true church.

It is a living church because the Holy Ghost gives real time direction to the body of Christ/the members of the church. It is living and not a church of dead instructions from years ago or even the dead instruction from men living today. The life comes through Christ who is the way, the truth and the life. It is living because we receive the living words directly from the source of life.

Until the true gospel is understood, accepted and taught and the false doctrines and gospel are removed, it cannot be his church. His church was established through the Book of Mormon which laid the foundation of this church and brought it out of darkness. When the Lord gave D&C 1, in 1831, he was well pleased. When the Lord declared D&C 84 in 1832, he said the whole church was under condemnation.

~Seeker.

[marc]

Yeah, you're talking about the institutional 501c3 organization that has morphed from the early condemned church. I know what the BoM states regarding what Christ's church is and also what He said in D&C 1. There is a distinction to be made between the two today even though an overlap exists.

[LDS Watchman]

But he was equally aware that the establishment of the Lord's church would continue and could not be stopped until it had filled the whole earth.

From what I know there are three instances where "filling the whole earth" is referenced, and none are about His church. D&C 65:2 states that the *gospel* will roll forth, which isn't the church. Both D&C 109:72 and Daniel 2 reference a stone (the kingdom of God) that will roll forth. Joseph made a clear distinction between the church and kingdom, specifically saying that the kingdom Daniel saw was not the church:

“There is a distinction between the church of God and the kingdom of God. The laws of the kingdom are not designed to affect our salvation hereafter. It is an entire, distinct, and separate government. The church is a spiritual matter and a spiritual kingdom; but the kingdom which Daniel saw was not a spiritual kingdom (was NOT the church), but was designed to be got up for the safety and salvation of the Saints by protecting them in their religious rights and worship. Anything that would tolerate man in the worship of his God under his own vine and fig tree would be tolerated of God.” (Council of Fifty, vol. 1, pp. [201]-[203])

I think you're forgetting a few things.

1) What is the vehicle for administering the ordinances that are part of the everlasting gospel?

Answer: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

2) Who is called to preach the everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth?

Answer: The Elders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

3) While I'm not disputing what Joseph supposedly said on one occasion in the secret council of 50 meeting, it's a fact that he most certainly did equate the last days kingdom of God which would fill the whole earth with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In the JST of Revelation 12, it also made very clear that it is the Lord's last days church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see D&C 115:4, etc. ), that will eventually bring forth the kingdom of God Daniel saw.

4) As for the Lord's one true church being established throughout the world before the tribulation/destruction, there's also this scripture in the Book of Mormon:

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. (1 Nephi 14)

[LDS Watchman]

The Lord's church will need to be set in order again before the righteous Remnant of Ephraim from within the church lead the final gathering and building of the New Jerusalem, but it is nevertheless still his one true church.

The setting in order will be the return to the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ONLY and true doctrine of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 31
Nephi teaches the doctrine of Christ that makes up the gospel and concludes by saying:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the ONLY and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

This is the setting in order of the church. When this is done, then the church will be set in order and Christ will again be placed at its head.

~Seeker

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control. Everything that has happened in the church, both good and bad, is all part of God's divine plan. As the scriptures tell us, it's a strange act.

As for the Doctrine of Christ, I suspect that we disagree on what that is, but that's a topic for another day.

[LDS Watchman]

Semantic argumentation is difficult and complex.

That said, it's important to note that an 1828 dictionary is not the one to use in order to search out possible meanings in the Book of Mormon. There's plenty of older King James biblical language in the Book of Mormon, with older meanings, and there's also a substantial amount of earlier nonbiblical meaning. In other words, if we go strictly with 1828 definitions, we're going to get meaning wrong in many cases. Look at the adverb again in Ether 14:29. The older meaning 'back' used with the verb drive isn't in Webster's 1828.

Well the 1828 Webster's Dictionary, although not perfect, gives us a very good idea of what words meant at the time of the publication of the Book of Mormon. But if you believe you have a better more accurate definition of what the term "establish" meant in 1830, please share it.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

LMAO

[LDS Watchman]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

LMAO

Still up to the same old tricks I see, mocking and laughing at those who you disagree with. Too bad. I was hoping you were ready to have a mature conversation, without all that. Guess not.

[Alexander]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

"100% still in charge and in control"

[LDS Watchman]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

"100% still in charge and in control"

So you think that God isn't 100% still in charge and control, then? That's interesting.

[Gadianton Slayer]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

LMAO

Still up to the same old tricks I see, mocking and laughing at those who you disagree with. Too bad. I was hoping you were ready to have a mature conversation, without all that. Guess not.

I've decided the horse is still dead.

[LDS Watchman]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

LMAO

Still up to the same old tricks I see, mocking and laughing at those who you disagree with. Too bad. I was hoping you were ready to have a mature conversation, without all that. Guess not.

I've decided the horse is still dead.

Oh, I see. So deciding that you didn't want to talk to me anymore meant you just had to resort to mocking me over a comment that wasn't even directed at you.

Guess some things never change.

[Luke]

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control.

"100% still in charge and in control"

So you think that God isn't 100% still in charge and control, then? That's interesting.

He’s “in charge and control” in some abstract way, yes, since He controls all things.

But He is not directing the leaders of the Church and has not been doing so for quite a long time.

[LDS Watchman]

But He is not directing the leaders of the Church and has not been doing so for quite a long time.

This is simply not true. Things aren't black and white like this.

I have seen first hand how God has directed leaders of the church many times throughout my life. I can testify that God has not completely abandoned the church or it's leaders, nor will he. God is still at the helm and will remain so.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Hmmm... what of this church today... I dunno, the shenanigans they've been doing for the past several generations are quite egregious. But the whole scamdemic took it to a whole new level of stupid. False teachings are just about as far as I need to go to disprove any claims to authority and heavenly approval.

[BuriedTartaria]

GS, I agree with your train of thought on this

[LDS Watchman]

Hmmm... what of this church today... I dunno, the shenanigans they've been doing for the past several generations are quite egregious. But the whole scamdemic took it to a whole new level of stupid. False teachings are just about as far as I need to go to disprove any claims to authority and heavenly approval.

Whatever shenanigans have been going on in the church for the past several generations pale in comparison to the shenanigans of ancient Israel. And yet they still maintained their authority and God continued to labor with them.

But if you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater that's up to you.

[Luke]

But He is not directing the leaders of the Church and has not been doing so for quite a long time.

This is simply not true. Things aren't black and white like this.

I have seen first hand how God has directed leaders of the church many times throughout my life. I can testify that God has not completely abandoned the church or it's leaders, nor will he. God is still at the helm and will remain so.

I didn’t say that they were in the dark and incapable of receiving revelation.

But compared to how things were done in Joseph’s day, it’s chalk and cheese. The Lord has become less familiar in consequence of abandoning certain laws, ordinances and truths.

[LDS Watchman]

But He is not directing the leaders of the Church and has not been doing so for quite a long time.

This is simply not true. Things aren't black and white like this.

I have seen first hand how God has directed leaders of the church many times throughout my life. I can testify that God has not completely abandoned the church or it's leaders, nor will he. God is still at the helm and will remain so.

I didn’t say that they were in the dark and incapable of receiving revelation.

But compared to how things were done in Joseph’s day, it’s chalk and cheese. The Lord has become less familiar in consequence of abandoning certain laws, ordinances and truths.

No, you made a blanket statement that God is only in control in some abstract sense and isn't directing the leaders of the church. I know from personal experience that your claim is false.

Jesus Christ is 100% still at the head of his church and in control. It's no different than ancient Israel. God didn't just walk away and turn his back on his people because there was some wild fruit on the tree. He continued to labor with them.

[Seeker144k]

The Lord's church will need to be set in order again before the righteous Remnant of Ephraim from within the church lead the final gathering and building of the New Jerusalem, but it is nevertheless still his one true church.

The setting in order will be the return to the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ONLY and true doctrine of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 31
Nephi teaches the doctrine of Christ that makes up the gospel and concludes by saying:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the ONLY and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

This is the setting in order of the church. When this is done, then the church will be set in order and Christ will again be placed at its head.

~Seeker

I would suggest that Christ is very much still the head of the Church. He is 100% still in charge and in control. Everything that has happened in the church, both good and bad, is all part of God's divine plan. As the scriptures tell us, it's a strange act.

As for the Doctrine of Christ, I suspect that we disagree on what that is, but that's a topic for another day.

You could say the same thing about any church, government, etc.

Several of the Prophets/presidents of the Church have admitted that they have never met Christ, even after 24 years of being the Prophet/President of the church. (See quotes in the thread "How the Lord Leads His Church Today...") All the major decisions regarding things like blacks and the priesthood, Polygamy, etc. were made at best by witness of the spirit as a result of massive outside/inside pressure forcing the church into decisions.

My wife and I have been ministered to by Christ several times both independently and together, in the person as well as in vision. One time, my wife was talking to him in a vision. They were in the new conference center, (before it had been open to the public, but the vision was at the end of a general conference). As the conference ended she got up and walked to the end of the isle as the mass of people were leaving. Standing in the walk way at the end of the isle was Jesus Christ. rather than walking out, they walked down toward the floor/stage area where the prophet, apostles and general authorities were mingling. They talked as they walked. When they got down among the church leaders, she expected that they would all congregate around him to hear what he had to say. Instead, they just walked through them and they acted as they couldn't see or recognize him. When it was appropriate in her conversation, she asked him why they do not see him or recognize him. He responded, "They do not because they will not. They teach for doctrines the commandments of men having a form of godliness but they are in direct denial of the power thereof." At the time, we were very active in the church and my wife worked in the temple 40 hours a week covering multiple shifts and we thought that Christ visited them far more than he visited us. We couldn't comprehend that the leaders of the church were not personally visited by Christ at least in vision. It wasn't until almost years later that we realized that they do not. As President Hinckley said, for them,

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

They lead the church with the same promptings of the Holy Ghost that a new member has access to. Now, about 20 years after that vision, I see that they teach the doctrines of men mingled with scripture. Having made my calling and election sure and received the Second Comforter, I can say with certain knowledge that many of their teachings prevent people from obtaining those blessings.

~Seeker