LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 4:10 pm
darknesstolight wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 1:37 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 1:20 pm
Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 1:06 pm
I think it is fair to assume that we both agree that the Prophet/President of the Church is the highest physically present leader over all the church who is solely responsible for decisions made, policies implemented, doctrine taught, etc. For example, The emphasis on the name of the church.
In the April 1990 General conference, Elder Nelson (apostle) gave a talk titled, "“
Thus Shall My Church Be Called”
President Hinckley acknowledged that he was correct from a technical point of view, but didn't agree with his application. So, Hinckley pressed harder on the use of the Nickname "Mormon" and created more advertising around the term Mormon like, "Meet the Mormons". He embraced the term Mormons. Not only that, but he snubbed Elder Nelson the following conference in a talk entitled, "
Mormon Should Mean 'More Good'" in which he said the following,
It was a very polite way to say, yes, who cares. Then President Hinckley made even more effort to push the name Mormon in ads and media. he was acting under his own inspiration at best, perhaps guided by the Holy Ghost, not under the direction of Christ from a vision or visitation. (Remember that he said there were no more visions and the church is led by the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
Elder Nelson as an apostle has always pushed for members to call the Church by its full name rather than using the name Mormons. But he wasn't able to make the decisions to push the correct name of the church in media and ad campaigns that Hinckley as prophet was doing.
Elder Nelson became the prophet/president of the church in Jan. of 2018. The following October General Conference he gave the talk, "
The Correct Name of the Church" is which he said, he was making a "course correction" meaning that Hinckley had been taking the church off course. He essentially stated that President Hinckley had been offending the lord by adopting and sponsoring the nickname "Mormons" in media and ads.
Nelson talks about the efforts made by Hinckley to push the nickname "Mormons" as if President Hinckley had "unwittingly" secured "a major victory for Satan" in his efforts.
Did Nelson get the inspiration to make this "course correction" for the church as an apostle or did he get the inspiration to do it immediately after Hinckley died, (because Hinckley's inspiration was not to do this)?
This is how the Lord leads the church... LOL. Or rather, this is how the Lord allows the church to be led by its presidents and prophets. (I believe that Elder Nelson is correct in pushing that the name of the Church include Jesus Christ.) For neither prophet did the Lord personally come to them and say, "Hey, about the nicknames of the church, let's do this for a while...."
President Nelson had a major revelation with the heart surgery. It was a true vision. Not based on his faith, but based on the faith of his patient. But because Nelson had that vision, he believes in more than Hinckley who never had one. He is striving for more and believes in more. But, he is still being led by the Holy Ghost, doing the best he can.
The reason we call them quotes and put "s around them is because it is a direct quote from what the person said. If the reporter put "s around it and claimed that he said it when he did not, then it would be as bad a if I said that you said, "God doesn't exist." It would be a lie and the church would have refuted it if he didn't actually say it. This is basic journalism. Also, the quote fits in line with all of his other comments on revelation. Here's an example where he responded about the blacks and the priesthood and how that revelation was received and he says that revelation comes through the Holy ghost.
There are lots of interviews and he says basically the same thing in those interviews, never varying.
~Seeker
None of this has anything to do with statement of mine you quoted. It's just an attempt to move the goal posts.
So I'll say it again.
Since I know people who have had visions in the church, I know that your claim that the church is at best guided by the Holy Ghost is false.
The people you know are they one of the Apostles or Presidency?
If these people you know are not the leaders of our church then these visions can't be used as evidence that the Church is being led by visions and revelations and conversations with Jesus, etc.
...
I don't know any members of the FP or Q12 personally. But that's not the point. I know local leaders and members who have had visions, seen angels, etc. And these individuals also lead the church in their respective spheres.
My wife and I are some of these members who you are talking about who have had visions, miracles, revelations, etc. as members of the church. From my perspective, we do not lead the church. We get shut down hard core any time we attempt to share our witness of Christ, our knowledge and experience with making our calling and elections sure, our experiences in the church of the Firstborn, etc. The Church and its leaders, (local and general), doesn't want to hear about it or know about it. It sounds like you don't know what it's like on this side of the isle. Most of the church and its members reject people like me who have firsthand knowledge and experience. We can only talk to people like you in very personal and private conversations after vetting people out and making sure they aren't going to turn us in to local authorities for disciplinary action. I have been told many times that it is not appropriate to share my personal experiences or even my firsthand witness of Christ in efforts to help other people experience the same.
Therefore I know from first hand knowledge that the church is not led exclusively by the Holy Ghost and the ideas of man. It is also led by visions. How frequently these visions occur I can't say. But I know that they do occur.
I am one of the people mentioned in D&C 77:11 who was ordained to be a high priest by the angels who have power over the nations of the earth. I am a missionary for the Church of the Firstborn. There are several others who visit this forum who also have this calling. Our job is to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn. Just as baptism is the joining ordinance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, making your calling and election sure by being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise is the joining ordinance for the Church of the Firstborn. Just as the first comforter is the confirmation ordinance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the second Comforter is the confirmation ordinance of the Church of the Firstborn. There are many people in the LDS church who have received these blessings, but a relatively low percentage. Not because it isn't achievable, but because the leaders of the church teach doctrines that are in direct opposition to the principles required to do so. The few who do are silenced in various ways so that they cannot openly help others do the same. My dad was a bishop several times two of which he had these blessings and struggled to teach the principles that would help others do the same because he had opposition from both the members and his leaders.
There are several places in the scriptures where the Lord calls out that people who think they are doing his work are actually fighting against him. The LDS church, and leaders in the church are often fighting against Christ rather than working for him or being guided by him. So, yes, there are some people in the church who have had visions and revelations and calling and Election and second comforter and other blessings. These people are led and guided by more than the Holy Ghost. But they are silenced and restricted and fought against the vast majority of the church and its leaders who have not experienced these things, (speaking from my own experience and the experience of over a hundred other people I know personally/directly).
Whether the current brethren ever have visions or have seen angels or even Christ, I don't claim to know one way or the other.
Some of them have told us directly that they have not. If we trust them, then we can know. Some of them speak of the witness of the Holy Ghost is such a way as to make it sound like they are special witnesses and have first hand experience with Christ. This makes it difficult to tell. I am reminded of David B. Haight who did this and a year before he died he had an experience in which he almost died and had a vision that was unique to him. He was excited to share his new experience in CG. He said that he now knew in a remarkable and powerful way that Jesus Christ is the savior. His previous witness and statements about being a special witness were put into perspective. And his experience had nothing to do with leading the church or how to be an apostle.
It should not be such a surprise that the 15 top leaders of the church are led by the Holy Ghost and not vision or Christ. This is what happened in the early church that Jesus setup. Once Jesus was taken into heaven the last time, then apostles were led by the Holy Ghost. (Acts 1:1-2) We see how this worked when they made major decisions back then too. Christ didn't come down and give them the answer. They debated and argued and then made decisions by the Holy Ghost. We see an example of this in Acts 15:1-12.
I know that there have been quite a few church presidents and apostles who have claimed to have seen visions, including seeing Christ post Joseph Smith and post Manifesto. I'm working on compiling as many of these accounts as I can find.
I would very much like to see this. There have only been 17 presidents of the Church, so it is a short list to work from as far as Presidents of the Church go. The following will help you with this list.
President Brigham Young - Said he hadn't had seen either the Father or the son after being president for 12 years and then again 17 years.
John Taylor - Unknown
Wilford Woodruff - I'm pretty sure he didn't, but can't find the reference (It is clear that the Declaration on Polygamy was not dictated by Christ)
Lorenzo Snow - Unknown
Joseph F. Smith - Had not - Testified before Congress that he had not received so much as a revelation more than any Methodist. - 1904-1907
Heber J, Grant - Had not - GC April 1899 and a letter to his sister April 13, 1926 and GC 1942 - President for 24 years
George Albert Smith - Had not - March 25, 1950 - President 5 years
David O. McKay - Said he had not in an interview on May 5, 1961 - President for 10 years
Joseph Fielding Smith - Unknown
Harold B. Lee - Spencer W. Kimball -
Ezra Taft Benson - Unknown
Howard W. Hunter - Unknown
Gordon B. Hinckley - Say that all his revelations come by the Holy Ghost - Multiple interviews throughout his presidency
Thomas S. Monson - I remember him saying no and don't ask, but didn't look for the quote.
Russell M. Nelson - As far as I can tell, not yet. 8 years ago when he was the Sr. Apostle he said he didn't and that his special witness was from the spirit which he related to anyone having the same witness when taking the Sacrament.
Also:
Apostle David B. Haight - Had not seen - May 1976, had seen at a distance - 1986 (about a year before he died)
Dallin H Oaks - Has said multiple times that he has not seen and says that none of the other 15 leaders of the church have either.)
George Q. Cannon -
Some who have seen Christ in Vision:
Melvin J. Ballard - April 1920
Hugh B. Brown - Recounted by Harold B. Lee - not sure on the date
Christoffel Golden - Recounted by Scott Duke - not sure on the date
Quentin Cook - Jan. 26, 2019
Let me know if you want any of the quotes that I used to create this list.
~Seeker
