LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:02 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 11:51 pm And as for authority, it's not men who dictate that, it is God. And he could not have been more clear when he said:

11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

D&C 42:11

Within the Church and it’s recognition, yes, obviously. But you can’t claim it’s a catch-all statement, otherwise God wouldn’t have spoken of “holy men which ye know not of”.

8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 11:40 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 20th, 2022, 11:56 pm I've been pondering on some things taught in 3 Nephi 21 for the last several months. The entire chapter is a fascinating timeline of events that begins with the coming forth of the book of Mormon and ends with the building of the New Jerusalem and the literal gathering of Israel.

• Verses 1-11 reveal the "sign" (aka: book of Mormon) which will come forth to the Gentiles and then be brought from the Gentiles to the remnant of the house of Israel, as well as the ministry of Joseph Smith.
• Verses 12-21 describe a period of tribulation that will take place AFTER the BoM has been brought forth and BEFORE the building of the NJ.
• Verses 22-29 address the commencement of the work of the father, building the NJ, that Christ will be physically present with this group, and the process of gathering.

There's a lot to unpack, but I want to discuss what this reveals about Christ's church. First, it should be noted that we are considered Gentiles as referenced in the BoM. If you don't believe me, take it up with Joseph (D&C 109:60).

There is a single reference to His church in verse 22:

But if they (the Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Now, this is where the dilemma of current claims begins. If I'm not mistaken, Christ pointedly states that He will establish His church among the Gentiles (us) if we will repent. This occurs AFTER the BoM comes forth, AFTER the period of tribulation, and just before the NJ is built.

To my knowledge, the destruction in verses 12-21 has yet to occur. We still have our "chariots", there are still "lyings" and "whoredoms", and our cities have not been destroyed. Feel free to correct me if that observation is false, and we have already seen God's wrath post-Joseph's era.

What does that mean about claims of being Christ's "only" church that will "never fall away" if there is a FUTURE day in which He will establish His church among the Gentiles who repent? It means that these claims are false. This day has not come, and so His church will yet be established... either again, or for the first time.

I see three main conclusions that can be drawn:

1. Christ never established His church in Joseph's day (hence the need for it to be established).
2. His church was established but fell away (hence the need for it to be established again once the Gentiles have repented).
3. The Church of Christ is much more than what some men claim.

My vote is cast on option 3, I've written more about that here.

This isn't an "attack" of any sort, but an honest evaluation of Christ's words which were written specifically for you and me. Sooner or later, members of the LDS organization will have to come to grips with the fact that they've been lied to about Christ's true church.

These false claims have fulfilled prophecy:

"For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord" (2 Nephi 28:3)

My conclusion here is also consistent with 3 Nephi 16:10-14.

Anywho, that's enough for my midnight ramblings. God bless, friends.

Here's a related thread that may be of interest:
viewtopic.php?t=66667

Here are the requirements to be Christ's church.

3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

1 - Called after his name
2 - Built upon his Gospel

I know that the LDS church today is not built upon his gospel because they teach an incorrect gospel as part of their fundamental beliefs (articles of faith).

Here is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ that his church must be built on.

D&C 39:6
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

D&C 33:11-12
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;

3 Nephi 27:20-21
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Notice that it does not say, "these are the first principles and ordinances of my gospel", it says, "this IS my gospel". Every time Jesus defines his gospel, this is what he says it is: Faith in Christ, Repentance, baptism by water, Receive the Holy Ghost which will tell you all things that you should do. That's it, the end.

Each of these points that make up the fulness of his gospel are called "doctrines". We are told three times in the book of Mormon that these are the only doctrines of Christ and the only doctrines of the Father, son and Holy Ghost. We are told that any gospel that does not include the full list of doctrines or includes more doctrines than these is not Christ's gospel. We are specifically told that if we seek to establish more than these doctrines as Christ's doctrine, then we are not built on his rock and we are opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Here are a few examples:

Jesus says, "I will declare unto you my doctrine. And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me", then he proceeds to teach all of the doctrines that make up his gospel. He teaches them over and over again repeating them several times. After repeatedly teaching the doctrines that make up his gospel, he says,

3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Notice that he says that his doctrine is the rock and whoever builds on this rock the gates of hell will not prevail against them. He also says that if someone declares more or less than these doctrines and establishes it as his doctrine, it comes of evil, is not built on his rock and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

The same doctrines are also taught in 2 Nephi 31 after which Nephi says, "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the ONLY... doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

It is taught again in 2 Nephi 32 after which Nephi says, "Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh." If Christ has not manifest himself to you in the flesh, (like he hasn't to 98% of the church), then the only doctrine you're given is the handful of doctrines which make up the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which his church is built upon.

The Lord taught it again in D&C 10 saying,

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them (the Book of Mormon), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

And, again in D&C 18 which says,

2 Behold, I have manifested unto you, by my Spirit in many instances, that the things which you have written, (the Book of Mormon), are true; wherefore you know that they are true.
3 And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written, (the Book of Mormon);
4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

This is the key that the LDS church is missing. They teach more than these few doctrines and call them the doctrines of Christ and make them part of his gospel. They teach that tithing is a doctrine of Christ, and the word of wisdom, and the law of chastity and the endowment and temple sealings, and on, and on, and on... They teach that all these doctrines are Christ's doctrine and part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This false gospel is so fundamental to the current LDS theology that it is written into the articles of faith which say,

Articles of faith:
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The church says that "the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel are what Christ calls "the only" doctrines and the fulness of his gospel. The church then adds to the doctrines of Christ and expands his gospel into what is no longer recognized as his gospel. Jesus repeatedly says in the verses quoted above that adding to his doctrine and gospel "opens the gates of hell to receive such."

Even people on this forum have argued with me and others about what Christ's doctrine and gospel is because they accept what it taught in the LDS manuals, conference talks and Articles of Faith and do not accept what the scriptures clearly and repeatedly say on this topic.

I personally not only understand what the Lord and the scriptures say about the doctrines of Christ, which I shared above. But I understand WHY these are the only doctrines of Christ that make up the fulness of his gospel and why adding to or taking away from this list comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

We are promised that anyone who follows the doctrines/Gospel of Christ as spelled out will receive the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 31
For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

The Holy Ghost will tell you all things that you should do.

2 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost is the voice of the Lord:

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

If you receive and follow the Holy Ghost, then you are redeemed, you are a member of Christ's church, and you are considered righteous. If you do not have/follow the Holy Ghost, then you are not a member of Christ's church, you are not redeemed, and you are wicked.

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

If you follow the Holy Ghost, it will bring you through the veil to God.

D&C 84
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

We are specifically told not to receive anything as truth that was not given to us by the spirit of truth/voice of the Lord.

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

Alma 30
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

Once you have the Holy Ghost/the voice of the Lord, to direct you, it will tell you all things that you should do and if you follow it alone, it will lead you to back to God. If you "follow the prophet", or other leaders of the church then you are relying on the arm of flesh and will not get back to God.

2 Nephi 28
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 4
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

Even when prophets are speaking, we follow the Holy Ghost and not the prophet or the position. If they are speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost, then that power will carry the message to our hearts and we will feel it come through the Holy Ghost and not the man or position.

D&C 50
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

2 Nephi 33
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., of the First Presidency answered the question, "When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?" saying,

“And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68:2-4.)

The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”; yet only when they do speak as “moved upon” is what they say considered scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application.

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”? I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto, so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.” In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak.”

Why is anything less than the doctrine of Christ not considered his gospel and considered false?
Because anything less is not enough for a person to obtain the Holy Ghost and witness that they have received it.

Why is anything more than the doctrine of Christ not considered his gospel and considered false?
The gospel tells us what is required to have and follow the Holy Ghost which then shows us and tells us all things that we should do. Any more instruction given beyond what is required to receive the Holy Ghost detracts from following the spirit and degrades the commandment to allow the Holy Ghost to show you all things that you should do. It creates a precedence and expectation for following someone other than God through the Holy Ghost.

If, for example, you say, paying tithing is a doctrine of Christ and part of his gospel, then the Holy Ghost cannot override that instruction because the Holy Ghost cannot teach contrary to the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, when you follow the Holy Ghost, guided by the scriptures, we find that not everyone is supposed to pay tithing. The Lord specifically teaches in the scriptures that the poor who do not have more than their needs should not pay tithing because they have no excess or increase. This was the practice in the church under the direction of Joseph Smith but was later changed under the direction of Lorenzo Snow because the church was going bankrupt. The Lord didn't change his instruction that the poor and those without increase should not pay tithing. Those who follow the spirit will know whether or not they should be paying tithing according to the commandment of the Lord, and the spirit will teach them why. Those who follow men will pay tithing even when the Lord commands them not to. They essentially act contrary to the Lord's will, without realizing it. Because they follow the arm of flesh and do not put their trust in that spirit that teaches them all things, they never learn the lesson that tithing is intended to teach them. They mistakenly believe that tithing is like other offerings which are not regulated by specific instructions regarding when to pay and how to calculate how much to pay. if you don't do the right thing, in the right way, then you don't get the right blessing. Paying tithing the way you pay other offerings gains you the blessings of other offerings, but not the blessings associated with tithing and so the windows of heaven are not opened up so that there is not enough room to receive the blessings, because that is a promise specifically associated with paying tithing in a specific way, and not associated with paying offerings.

So it is with everything. If you do not learn to listen to and rely on the Holy Ghost to be your guide in all things, then you will end up like the Terrestrial people who accepted the testimony of Christ and his gospel but were "blinded by the craftiness of men" because they trusted in the arm of flesh and not in the spirit which leads us to do good.

This is why the church today is under condemnation and has been since 1832, (two years after the church was organized), when the Lord said the following:

D&C 84
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received (The doctrine of Christ and the Gospel as taught in the Book of Mormon)—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

The church has changed the doctrines of Christ and teaches a false version of the gospel that adds to the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It teaches people to "follow the prophet" rather than to not trust in the arm of flesh. It teaches them that we can not trust in the spirit if the spirit tells us to do things contrary to our church and its leaders, (which means that our church leaders tell us all things that we should do). It teaches us that the voice of the Lord is subject to the dictates of men, church policy, and the philosophies of men mingled with scripture found in church talks and manuals and especially the Bishop's/Stake President's handbook of instruction. It tells our leaders to follow the handbooks of instruction rather than the Holy Ghost to determine what to do in various situations. It teaches the commandments of men which have a form of godliness but are in direct denial of the very power thereof which comes through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Until this is corrected in each of our lives, we will remain condemned. Until it is corrected in the church, the church will remain condemned. If you are not acquainted with the voice of the Lord, then you are not his sheep because his sheep hear his voice and obey HIM, not the hired help who sometimes speak for him and often do not.

~Seeker

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 1:20 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 1:06 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2022, 9:19 am Since I know people who have had visions in the church, I know that your claim that the church is at best guided by the Holy Ghost is false.

I think it is fair to assume that we both agree that the Prophet/President of the Church is the highest physically present leader over all the church who is solely responsible for decisions made, policies implemented, doctrine taught, etc. For example, The emphasis on the name of the church.

In the April 1990 General conference, Elder Nelson (apostle) gave a talk titled, "“Thus Shall My Church Be Called”

President Hinckley acknowledged that he was correct from a technical point of view, but didn't agree with his application. So, Hinckley pressed harder on the use of the Nickname "Mormon" and created more advertising around the term Mormon like, "Meet the Mormons". He embraced the term Mormons. Not only that, but he snubbed Elder Nelson the following conference in a talk entitled, "Mormon Should Mean 'More Good'" in which he said the following,

Many of our people are disturbed by the practice of the media, and of many others, to disregard totally the true name of the Church and to use the nickname “the Mormon Church.”

Six months ago in our conference Elder Russell M. Nelson delivered an excellent address on the correct name of the Church. He quoted the words of the Lord Himself:

“Thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (D&C 115:4.)

He then went on to discourse on the various elements of that name. I commend to you a rereading of his talk.

The Mormon church, of course, is a nickname. And nicknames have a way of becoming fixed. I think of the verse concerning a boy and his name:

Father calls me William,

Sister calls me Will,

Mother calls me Willie,

But the fellers call me Bill.

(“Jest ’Fore Christmas.”)

I suppose that regardless of our efforts, we may never convert the world to general use of the full and correct name of the Church. Because of the shortness of the word Mormon and the ease with which it is spoken and written, they will continue to call us the Mormons, the Mormon church, and so forth.

They could do worse. More than fifty years ago, when I was a missionary in England, I said to one of my associates, “How can we get people, including our own members, to speak of the Church by its proper name?”

He replied, “You can’t. The word Mormon is too deeply ingrained and too easy to say.” He went on, “I’ve quit trying. While I’m thankful for the privilege of being a follower of Jesus Christ and a member of the Church which bears His name, I am not ashamed of the nickname Mormon.”

“Look,” he went on to say, “if there is any name that is totally honorable in its derivation, it is the name Mormon. And so, when someone asks me about it and what it means, I quietly say—‘Mormon means more good.’” (The Prophet Joseph Smith first said this in 1843; see Times and Seasons, 4:194; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 299–300.)

It was a very polite way to say, yes, who cares. Then President Hinckley made even more effort to push the name Mormon in ads and media. he was acting under his own inspiration at best, perhaps guided by the Holy Ghost, not under the direction of Christ from a vision or visitation. (Remember that he said there were no more visions and the church is led by the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

Elder Nelson as an apostle has always pushed for members to call the Church by its full name rather than using the name Mormons. But he wasn't able to make the decisions to push the correct name of the church in media and ad campaigns that Hinckley as prophet was doing.

Elder Nelson became the prophet/president of the church in Jan. of 2018. The following October General Conference he gave the talk, "The Correct Name of the Church" is which he said, he was making a "course correction" meaning that Hinckley had been taking the church off course. He essentially stated that President Hinckley had been offending the lord by adopting and sponsoring the nickname "Mormons" in media and ads.

Today I feel compelled to discuss with you a matter of great importance. Some weeks ago, I released a statement regarding a course correction for the name of the Church. I did this because the Lord impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He decreed for His Church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
...
Thus, the name of the Church is not negotiable. When the Savior clearly states what the name of His Church should be and even precedes His declaration with, “Thus shall my church be called,” He is serious. And if we allow nicknames to be used or adopt or even sponsor those nicknames ourselves, He is offended.
...
What’s in a name or, in this case, a nickname? When it comes to nicknames of the Church, such as the “LDS Church,” the “Mormon Church,” or the “Church of the Latter-day Saints,” the most important thing in those names is the absence of the Savior’s name. To remove the Lord’s name from the Lord’s Church is a major victory for Satan. When we discard the Savior’s name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us—even His Atonement.
...
After all He had endured—and after all He had done for humankind—I realize with profound regret that we have unwittingly acquiesced in the Lord’s restored Church being called by other names, each of which expunges the sacred name of Jesus Christ!
...
Brothers and sisters, there are many worldly arguments against restoring the correct name of the Church. Because of the digital world in which we live and with search engine optimization that helps all of us find information we need almost instantly—including information about the Lord’s Church—critics say that a correction at this point is unwise. Others feel that because we are known so widely as “Mormons” and as the “Mormon Church,” we should make the best of it.

If this were a discussion about branding a man-made organization, those arguments might prevail. But in this crucial matter, we look to Him whose Church this is and acknowledge that the Lord’s ways are not, and never will be, man’s ways. If we will be patient and if we will do our part well, the Lord will lead us through this important task. After all, we know that the Lord helps those who seek to do His will, just as He helped Nephi accomplish the task of building a ship to cross the sea.
...
My dear brothers and sisters, I promise you that if we will do our best to restore the correct name of the Lord’s Church, He whose Church this is will pour down His power and blessings upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints, the likes of which we have never seen. We will have the knowledge and power of God to help us take the blessings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord.

Nelson talks about the efforts made by Hinckley to push the nickname "Mormons" as if President Hinckley had "unwittingly" secured "a major victory for Satan" in his efforts.

Did Nelson get the inspiration to make this "course correction" for the church as an apostle or did he get the inspiration to do it immediately after Hinckley died, (because Hinckley's inspiration was not to do this)?

This is how the Lord leads the church... LOL. Or rather, this is how the Lord allows the church to be led by its presidents and prophets. (I believe that Elder Nelson is correct in pushing that the name of the Church include Jesus Christ.) For neither prophet did the Lord personally come to them and say, "Hey, about the nicknames of the church, let's do this for a while...."

President Nelson had a major revelation with the heart surgery. It was a true vision. Not based on his faith, but based on the faith of his patient. But because Nelson had that vision, he believes in more than Hinckley who never had one. He is striving for more and believes in more. But, he is still being led by the Holy Ghost, doing the best he can.

As for the Hinckley "quote," I believe that the first part of the "quote" where is says "Revelation no longer comes by vision" is the author of the articles interpretation of what he said. I suspect that Hinckley was asked if continuing revelation comes by vision, to which Hinckley responded that it comes by the Holy Ghost, and then the author of the article interpreted his answer to mean that revelation no.longer comes by vision, only by the Holy Ghost. But there's an easy way to find out. Do you have a transcript or video recording of the interview where we can see the original question and answer?

The reason we call them quotes and put "s around them is because it is a direct quote from what the person said. If the reporter put "s around it and claimed that he said it when he did not, then it would be as bad a if I said that you said, "God doesn't exist." It would be a lie and the church would have refuted it if he didn't actually say it. This is basic journalism. Also, the quote fits in line with all of his other comments on revelation. Here's an example where he responded about the blacks and the priesthood and how that revelation was received and he says that revelation comes through the Holy ghost.

PBS Interview:
We've spoken to a lot of people about the significance of that 1978 revelation [ending the ban on people with African blood becoming priests]. Blacks and whites and Mormons describe it as one of the most extraordinary moments in the church's history in the 20th century. I haven't spoken to anybody who was there, but I have read what you've said and written about that moment. Can you talk about it?

It was a landmark occasion. We were in the temple. We gathered in prayer, and President [Spencer] Kimball led [us] in prayer, and he talked about it. It had been on his mind for a good while. And as he prayed, he talked with the Lord about it, and there just settled over us a feeling that this is the right thing; the time has come; now is the opportunity. And on the basis of that we proceeded.

In some of your speeches and writings on the subject, you also used language that I would love to know more about. You felt that a conduit to God had opened up and almost a Pentecostal spirit [was there] in the room.

No, it wasn't like any other moment. There was something of a Pentecostal spirit. But on the other hand it was peaceful, quiet, not a cataclysmic thing in any sense. There was just a feeling that came over all of us, and we knew that it was the right thing at the right time and that we should proceed. And this made all the difference in the world. We've grown strong in Africa and in Brazil and in other places. There is no race bias among us. It's been well received all over the church, and I'm satisfied in my own mind, as one who was there, that the right thing happened at the right time in the right way.

I gather for President Kimball it was something he brought to the Lord on many occasions, that he prayed night after night. Is that true?

That's my understanding. This was not just all of a sudden. This had been on his mind for a good long time. He had prayed about it, worried about it, talked about it. And then it happened.

Could I ask you a little about revelation itself? Some scholars who have not experienced it describe it as communication with God, but distinct from impressions or insights. How would you describe it or explain it?

I think it's best described in the experience of Elijah: When there was a great wind and the Lord was not in the wind; and a great fire and the Lord was not in the fire; and then a still small voice, and the Lord was there. That's the best description I know of the process of revelation.

I gather that in your church, revelation can have as its subjects monumentally important events like the one we just talked about -- the revelation on the priesthood -- but it can also be about smaller things.

Oh, of course. We believe in continuous revelation. We believe this church is guided by revelation. We pray, we ponder, we think, we ask, and we receive direction as to what to do. I think that's going on all the time. That's faith, [the] story of this church. That's the reason it's made such tremendous progress, and it's going on all the time. Without it, we just stand still. With it, nothing can get in our way.

There are lots of interviews and he says basically the same thing in those interviews, never varying.

~Seeker

None of this has anything to do with statement of mine you quoted. It's just an attempt to move the goal posts.

So I'll say it again.

Since I know people who have had visions in the church, I know that your claim that the church is at best guided by the Holy Ghost is false.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:29 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:25 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:22 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:19 pm
The facts have never changed. Nothing happened to the facts when I quoted TheDuke.

Yes, the fact that a local church leader such as a bishop is most definitely a church leader, didn't change even though you quoted a comment by Duke I had already addressed. Glad we cleared that up.

That wasn't what we were talking about.

That's exactly what we were talking about.

And I can quote plenty of official Church sources that say that a Bishop is a church leader and is to receive revelation for the members of the church within his stewardship.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:30 am

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:02 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 11:51 pm And as for authority, it's not men who dictate that, it is God. And he could not have been more clear when he said:

11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

D&C 42:11

Within the Church and it’s recognition, yes, obviously. But you can’t claim it’s a catch-all statement, otherwise God wouldn’t have spoken of “holy men which ye know not of”.

What is meant by these "holy men that ye know not of" has never been explained as far as I know, but pretty much all members of offshoot groups and independent fundamentalists claim that it refers to them. Go figure. However, this is clearly not the case.

Let's look at the verse you are referring to.

8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

These holy men are not "under sin" and "reserved unto" the Lord. Sounds like translated beings to me.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:56 pm Other leaders of the church (like Bishops) also seek and receive divine guidance (occasionally in the form of visions) as they lead, love, and serve members over whom they have stewardship.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:49 am Bishops are leaders "within" the church, they are clearly not leaders of the church. Everyone knows leadership is at the head, but I'm sure one more person saying the same thing will matter to you.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 11:51 pm 11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:07 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 11:51 pm 11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

It is important to note here that it is NOT known to the church that RMN is authorized to lead it. There is no revelation from God declaring that he is our leader. Not a single leader after Joseph has produced a revelation showing that God appoints them to lead. JS is the only one to have done this.

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:42 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:30 am

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:02 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 11:51 pm And as for authority, it's not men who dictate that, it is God. And he could not have been more clear when he said:

Within the Church and it’s recognition, yes, obviously. But you can’t claim it’s a catch-all statement, otherwise God wouldn’t have spoken of “holy men which ye know not of”.

What is meant by these "holy men that ye know not of" has never been explained as far as I know, but pretty much all members of offshoot groups and independent fundamentalists claim that it refers to them. Go figure. However, this is clearly not the case.

Let's look at the verse you are referring to.

8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

These holy men are not "under sin" and "reserved unto" the Lord. Sounds like translated beings to me.

I’ve never tried to claim I know who this refers to. But that’s not the point—it doesn’t matter who they are—the point is that there is legitimate authority not known to the Church, therefore your interpretation of the Scripture you posted is incorrect.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:55 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:49 am Bishops are leaders "within" the church, they are clearly not leaders of the church. Everyone knows leadership is at the head, but I'm sure one more person saying the same thing will matter to you.

How they got there is questionable.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:07 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 11:51 pm 11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

It is important to note here that it is NOT known to the church that RMN is authorized to lead it. There is no revelation from God declaring that he is our leader. Not a single leader after Joseph has produced a revelation showing that God appoints them to lead. JS is the only one to have done this.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:12 am God only uses succession anymore

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:17 am D&C 42:11 doesn't mention the necessity of a "thus saith the Lord" revelation. RMN known to have been ordained by the proper channels by the church and its heads. There is no question of that.

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:55 am The church was indeed established and the Lord said so even in D&C, but Zion was never redeemed and the church remains under condemnation. If you take anything away from the D&C it is this.

gruden2.0 wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:41 pm

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:55 am The church was indeed established and the Lord said so even in D&C, but Zion was never redeemed and the church remains under condemnation. If you take anything away from the D&C it is this.

In May, 1834 Joseph Smith changed the name of the church from 'The Church of Christ' to "The Church of Latter-Day Saints". Do you see any significance to this?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:14 am This scripture can't be used to argue that fundamentalists or other individuals have legitimate authority from God to administer his ordinances.

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 1:07 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:14 am This scripture can't be used to argue that fundamentalists or other individuals have legitimate authority from God to administer his ordinances.

It certainly can—because it establishes a valid precedent that valid authority can and does exist outside of the Church.

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 1:07 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:14 am This scripture can't be used to argue that fundamentalists or other individuals have legitimate authority from God to administer his ordinances.

It certainly can—because it establishes a valid precedent that valid authority can and does exist outside of the Church.

gruden2.0 wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 12:41 pm

marc wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 8:55 am The church was indeed established and the Lord said so even in D&C, but Zion was never redeemed and the church remains under condemnation. If you take anything away from the D&C it is this.

In May, 1834 Joseph Smith changed the name of the church from 'The Church of Christ' to "The Church of Latter-Day Saints". Do you see any significance to this?

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:35 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:29 pm

darknesstolight wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:25 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 28th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Yes, the fact that a local church leader such as a bishop is most definitely a church leader, didn't change even though you quoted a comment by Duke I had already addressed. Glad we cleared that up.

That wasn't what we were talking about.

That's exactly what we were talking about.

And I can quote plenty of official Church sources that say that a Bishop is a church leader and is to receive revelation for the members of the church within his stewardship.

In my last post I mentioned that my dad was a Bishop and saw Christ. While serving as a Bishop the spirit told him that one of the members of his ward was committing adultery and his wife was not aware of it. The man came in for a temple recommend interview and my dad asked him the questions. He judged himself worthy and my dad had to give him a temple recommend even though he knew by the spirit that the man was committing adultery. He couldn't act on that revelation because he church policies and Bishop's handbook of instructions says he can't take action on that type of thing without two witnesses or evidence showing it. A while later his wife went to a doctor trying to figure out why she couldn't get pregnant and some other issues she was having and she was diagnosed with an STD she picked up from her husband.

My point being that leaders of the church can't even follow the promptings of the spirit in many instances. He had the Stake President called on him because he taught in sacrament meeting that we follow the spirit even when it tell us to do things that breaks policy. He backed up his instruction with a story about his friend who was giving a blessing to a member whose husband was a non-member. He was her homesteaders and his companion couldn't come. The spirit told him to invite the husband to join by laying hands on her head. He didn't feel comfortable doing that because of church policy. The husband had had all the missionary lessons and refused to be baptized for over 6 years. His wife had prayed continually for him. The spirit told my dad's friend again to invite the husband to participate and refused to give the blessing until he did. He asked the non-member husband to participate in the blessing and both put their hands on her head and he pronounced the blessing. Everyone was crying and the spirit was powerful. A few weeks later the husband was baptized. My dad taught that the spirit is a higher authority than the manuals and policies. Someone called the Stake President about what he said and the Stake President told him to denounce what he said the next Sunday in Sacrament meeting.

In the next sacrament meeting my dad stood up and recalled what he taught the previous week and retestified that it was true and that the spirit is a higher authority then the Bishop or the stake President and you always follow the spirit.

I recognize that this teaching contradicts the previous story about the spirit telling him the man was an adulter and he still gave him a temple recommend. My dad have learned that even the Spirit is limited in what it can tell a leader to do in the church. Some policies are too strong and have consequences for breaking. He could not have gotten away with denying the man a recommend. He hardly got away with teaching to follow the spirit above policies and manuals and was reprimanded for it.

My point is, we struggle to follow the spirit in church, and you want the church to be led by the Savior. If the Savior told a leader to do something outside of policy, then the leader would be released and someone else would be put in their place who followed the manuals and policies.

~Seeker

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 1:14 pm

Luke wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 1:07 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:14 am This scripture can't be used to argue that fundamentalists or other individuals have legitimate authority from God to administer his ordinances.

It certainly can—because it establishes a valid precedent that valid authority can and does exist outside of the Church.

It's simple: If authority is dependent on your membership in the LDS org then men dictate who holds the priesthood, not God. Men choose who joins or leaves, not God. So to draw a direct correlation between membership and authority is blasphemous.

It's not the only way these men have made themselves gods.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:16 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:55 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 10:49 am Bishops are leaders "within" the church, they are clearly not leaders of the church. Everyone knows leadership is at the head, but I'm sure one more person saying the same thing will matter to you.

How they got there is questionable.

RFM's Apostolic Coup D'état podcast episode is a decent answer to the question, probably his best piece of work.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 11:26 am
Besides all the church members at that time knew what was meant by being known to the church.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑December 29th, 2022, 2:03 pm Yeah it's right up there with his stuff on how the church should allow same-sex marriage.

In other words, total nonsense.