3 Nephi 21 disproves claims to Christ's church

[Gadianton Slayer]

Would you look at that!!! I edited my post after you commented…. And it says I edited it!!

Dude, that’s crazy.

Yeah, this time it did. Maybe it is a glitch. Because other times it doesn't.

In all seriousness, I haven’t seen what you’re claiming so there isn’t really a point to this discussion. You saw it, I didn’t. Oh well.

Actually it may very well be a glitch (unless a mod is messing with me), since I edited the post you were responding to just a moment ago and it didn't show edited. Who knows? Doesn't really matter. I just found it interesting when I first noticed it happening sometimes.

I might crack a sparkling cider tonight to celebrate that we just evaluated a situation together and came to a mutual agreement.

[LDS Watchman]

Yeah, this time it did. Maybe it is a glitch. Because other times it doesn't.

In all seriousness, I haven’t seen what you’re claiming so there isn’t really a point to this discussion. You saw it, I didn’t. Oh well.

Actually it may very well be a glitch (unless a mod is messing with me), since I edited the post you were responding to just a moment ago and it didn't show edited. Who knows? Doesn't really matter. I just found it interesting when I first noticed it happening sometimes.

I might crack a sparkling cider tonight to celebrate that we just evaluated a situation together and came to a mutual agreement.

Yeah, you gotta celebrate this moment. Might never happen again.

[Gadianton Slayer]

In all seriousness, I haven’t seen what you’re claiming so there isn’t really a point to this discussion. You saw it, I didn’t. Oh well.

Actually it may very well be a glitch (unless a mod is messing with me), since I edited the post you were responding to just a moment ago and it didn't show edited. Who knows? Doesn't really matter. I just found it interesting when I first noticed it happening sometimes.

I might crack a sparkling cider tonight to celebrate that we just evaluated a situation together and came to a mutual agreement.

Yeah, you gotta celebrate this moment. Might never happen again.

[LDS Watchman]

Actually it may very well be a glitch (unless a mod is messing with me), since I edited the post you were responding to just a moment ago and it didn't show edited. Who knows? Doesn't really matter. I just found it interesting when I first noticed it happening sometimes.

I might crack a sparkling cider tonight to celebrate that we just evaluated a situation together and came to a mutual agreement.

Yeah, you gotta celebrate this moment. Might never happen again.

All kidding aside. I actually do hope that we can come to a consensus on various issues more frequently. The truth ought to be our goal, not winning an argument or trying to show up those who we disagree with on some key issues.

[Gadianton Slayer]

All kidding aside. I actually do hope that we can come to a consensus on various issues more frequently. The truth ought to be our goal, not winning an argument or trying to show up those who we disagree with on some key issues.

For sure; personally, that pursuit (truth) is what has lead me through the last 2 years of experiences. Being sent home from my mission, getting the boot from a sacrament meeting, nearly being exxed, eventually removing my records, and talking with hundreds of people to learn what I can. It is also what has led me to my current conclusions based upon what I can gather from scripture, prophetic teachings, opinions, personal promptings, and logic. Maybe at some point in time I would have cared more about being “right”… but it’s taken me a while to accept how wrong I have been and still can be. You wouldn’t recognize who I was 2 years ago.

I consider myself fairly open-minded when it comes to discussions on any topic; but, tend to give up when we reach our “duck-rabbits” as I call them.

[darknesstolight]

You deny the post below now or you want to clarify?

You said

"Since I know people who have had visions in the church, I know that your claim that the church is at best guided by the Holy Ghost is false."

...

I was very clear about what I meant in the post you falsely accused me of being dishonest over. Please read that one again if you still aren't sure what I mean.

Trying to claim that a bishop, for example, is the same as the leadership of the Church is dishonest.

I did read it. You said that because you know of other people in the Church who have had visions you therefore know the Church is being lead by more than just the Holy Ghost.

But that isn't how logic and reason work. Because you know people in the Church who have seen visions or spoken to angels or whatever that is not evidence that the Church is being lead by prophecy, seership, or revelations, and visitations, or visions.

You can't possibly know what you claim to know based on what you've stated in your posts.

...

Is a Bishop a church leader, yes or no?

No.

A bishop, he is a lay person who temporarily has a calling that he volunteers for and he is a leader in the Ward, not the Church. The bishop gets their directions from the Head, which we call apostles and President. They are the leaders of the Church and in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

...

[LDS Watchman]

I was very clear about what I meant in the post you falsely accused me of being dishonest over. Please read that one again if you still aren't sure what I mean.

Trying to claim that a bishop, for example, is the same as the leadership of the Church is dishonest.

I did read it. You said that because you know of other people in the Church who have had visions you therefore know the Church is being lead by more than just the Holy Ghost.

But that isn't how logic and reason work. Because you know people in the Church who have seen visions or spoken to angels or whatever that is not evidence that the Church is being lead by prophecy, seership, or revelations, and visitations, or visions.

You can't possibly know what you claim to know based on what you've stated in your posts.

...

Is a Bishop a church leader, yes or no?

No.

A bishop, he is a lay person who temporarily has a calling that he volunteers for and he is a leader in the Ward, not the Church. The bishop gets their directions from the Head, which we call apostles and President. They are the leaders of the Church and in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

...

You lost me at "no" [a Bishop isn't a church leader]. Of course he is. You're not being honest.

[darknesstolight]

Trying to claim that a bishop, for example, is the same as the leadership of the Church is dishonest.

I did read it. You said that because you know of other people in the Church who have had visions you therefore know the Church is being lead by more than just the Holy Ghost.

But that isn't how logic and reason work. Because you know people in the Church who have seen visions or spoken to angels or whatever that is not evidence that the Church is being lead by prophecy, seership, or revelations, and visitations, or visions.

You can't possibly know what you claim to know based on what you've stated in your posts.

...

Is a Bishop a church leader, yes or no?

No.

A bishop, he is a lay person who temporarily has a calling that he volunteers for and he is a leader in the Ward, not the Church. The bishop gets their directions from the Head, which we call apostles and President. They are the leaders of the Church and in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

...

You lost me at "no" [a Bishop isn't a church leader]. Of course he is. You're not being honest.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church and that isn't who is leading the Church.

A bishop having a vision is not evidence that the Church is being LED by this vision.

...

[LDS Watchman]

Is a Bishop a church leader, yes or no?

No.

A bishop, he is a lay person who temporarily has a calling that he volunteers for and he is a leader in the Ward, not the Church. The bishop gets their directions from the Head, which we call apostles and President. They are the leaders of the Church and in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

...

You lost me at "no" [a Bishop isn't a church leader]. Of course he is. You're not being honest.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church and that isn't who is leading the Church.

A bishop having a vision is not evidence that the Church is being LED by this vision.

...

Yes, a Bishop most certainly is a leader of the church and a Bishop having a vision, particularly if it is in conjuction with his calling, is absolutely evidence that the Church is being led by visions.

[darknesstolight]

No.

A bishop, he is a lay person who temporarily has a calling that he volunteers for and he is a leader in the Ward, not the Church. The bishop gets their directions from the Head, which we call apostles and President. They are the leaders of the Church and in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

...

You lost me at "no" [a Bishop isn't a church leader]. Of course he is. You're not being honest.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church and that isn't who is leading the Church.

A bishop having a vision is not evidence that the Church is being LED by this vision.

...

Yes, a Bishop most certainly is a leader of the church and a Bishop having a vision, particularly if it is in conjuction with his calling, is absolutely evidence that the Church is being led by visions.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church. Their visions don't lead the Church. It's the 15 that lead the Church. You can't use your bishop as proof that the Church is being lead by visions. It's a straight up Mormon lie like, like the principle made up by Mormons, to lie for the Lord. Mormons are famous for the level of gaslighting you Mr. Mormon are employing in your attempt to rescue your idol.

Let your idol fall and worship God and His Son Jesus the Christ, not flesh or the arm of flesh.

...

[Cruiserdude]

You lost me at "no" [a Bishop isn't a church leader]. Of course he is. You're not being honest.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church and that isn't who is leading the Church.

A bishop having a vision is not evidence that the Church is being LED by this vision.

...

Yes, a Bishop most certainly is a leader of the church and a Bishop having a vision, particularly if it is in conjuction with his calling, is absolutely evidence that the Church is being led by visions.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church. Their visions don't lead the Church. It's the 15 that lead the Church. You can't use your bishop as proof that the Church is being lead by visions. It's a straight up Mormon lie like, like the principle made up by Mormons, to lie for the Lord. Mormons are famous for the level of gaslighting you Mr. Mormon are employing in your attempt to rescue your idol.

Let your idol fall and worship God and His Son Jesus the Christ, not flesh or the arm of flesh.

...

I believe we do a serious disservice to our church members by conflating the 'gospel', the 'church', and the 'corporation'.
https://youtu.be/6qIr30dtCvo

[darknesstolight]

A bishop is not a leader of the Church and that isn't who is leading the Church.

A bishop having a vision is not evidence that the Church is being LED by this vision.

...

Yes, a Bishop most certainly is a leader of the church and a Bishop having a vision, particularly if it is in conjuction with his calling, is absolutely evidence that the Church is being led by visions.

A bishop is not a leader of the Church. Their visions don't lead the Church. It's the 15 that lead the Church. You can't use your bishop as proof that the Church is being lead by visions. It's a straight up Mormon lie like, like the principle made up by Mormons, to lie for the Lord. Mormons are famous for the level of gaslighting you Mr. Mormon are employing in your attempt to rescue your idol.

Let your idol fall and worship God and His Son Jesus the Christ, not flesh or the arm of flesh.

...

I believe we do a serious disservice to our church members by conflating the 'gospel', the 'church', and the 'corporation'.
https://youtu.be/6qIr30dtCvo

Absolutely.

...

[darknesstolight]

A bishop is not a leader of the Church.

Still lying I see. Carry on.

Can a local bishop receive revelation for the Church? Who are the leaders of the Church? Your local bishop? Is the First President coming to your bishop or friends and asking them about their visions and which way the Church should be led?

Go to the Church website and look up Church leadership. Tell me if you see your local bishop listed as a leader of the Church.

in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

...

[TheDuke]

LDS Watchman if you're implying that any Bishop or SP for that matter can do something to lead the church as a whole, you're a bit out there! If that were the case, then the several bishops that I know that were ex'ed would mean the church is astray as well. Bishops serve in the church but are local leaders and have absolutely no sway on church doctrine, direction, teachings, CES, BYU, etc... So, while they may be classified as church leadership, that would be like saying my old manager at Boeing was Boeing leadership when he never, ever counselled with the corporate leadership types. Just clarifying the overblown statements. The fact is how any bishop goes has no influence on how the church as a whole goes..... BTW even true of SP's and Area 70's, our A70 did things during COVID that other, wiser A70's did not do, and I try hard no to judge the church by his low standards and lack of inspiration.

[LDS Watchman]

Can a local bishop receive revelation for the Church?

Yes, absolutely. He is to receive revelation for the members of the church in his ward.

Who are the leaders of the Church? Your local bishop?

Yes, a local Bishop is one of the leaders of the church.

in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

Actually you have no idea whether the FP and Q12 are "leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations" or not. There have been many accounts of members of the FP and Q12 experiencing these things throughout church history and at least some of the very recent and current members of the FP and Q12 have suggest that they do receive these things but have been commanded not to share them publicly.

[LDS Watchman]

LDS Watchman if you're implying that any Bishop or SP for that matter can do something to lead the church as a whole, you're a bit out there!

I never implied that Bishops, SPs, and other local leaders lead the church as a whole. They lead members within their stewardships at the local level. But that is still leading the church.

[darknesstolight]

Can a local bishop receive revelation for the Church?

Yes, absolutely. He is to receive revelation for the members of the church in his ward.

Who are the leaders of the Church? Your local bishop?

Yes, a local Bishop is one of the leaders of the church.

in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

Actually you have no idea whether the FP and Q12 are "leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations" or not. There have been many accounts of members of the FP and Q12 experiencing these things throughout church history and at least some of the very recent and current members of the FP and Q12 have suggest that they do receive these things but have been commanded not to share them publicly.

Your bishop doesn't get revelation for the Church.

The Church is being lead by the 15 apostles.

Those are the people who need to be having visions and if they are having visions then you can say the Church is being led by visions. Your bishop is not a leader of the Church.

...

[LDS Watchman]

Can a local bishop receive revelation for the Church?

Yes, absolutely. He is to receive revelation for the members of the church in his ward.

Who are the leaders of the Church? Your local bishop?

Yes, a local Bishop is one of the leaders of the church.

in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

Actually you have no idea whether the FP and Q12 are "leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations" or not. There have been many accounts of members of the FP and Q12 experiencing these things throughout church history and at least some of the very recent and current members of the FP and Q12 have suggest that they do receive these things but have been commanded not to share them publicly.

Your bishop doesn't get revelation for the Church.

The Church is being lead by the 15 apostles.

Those are the people who need to be having visions and if they are having visions then you can say the Church is being led by visions. Your bishop is not a leader of the Church.

...

This is getting circular now. Everyone knows that a Bishop is a church leader.

The church is also the membership, a body of believers. If the local leaders and members have visions, then the church is being led by visions.

You also don't have any grounds to declare that no member of the FP or Q12 has ever had a vision.

So your argument doesn't hold water.

[darknesstolight]

Can a local bishop receive revelation for the Church?

Yes, absolutely. He is to receive revelation for the members of the church in his ward.

Who are the leaders of the Church? Your local bishop?

Yes, a local Bishop is one of the leaders of the church.

in ANY case those are the people everyone is talking about when they say our Church as a whole is not being LED by Apostles and a Presidency, those we call prophets, seers, and revelators, the literal and legal leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, these men l, who LEAD the Church, are not leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations, none such are they being the leaders of not in or outside of the Church.

Actually you have no idea whether the FP and Q12 are "leading by manifesting visions, or seeing mysteries, or revelations, or visitations" or not. There have been many accounts of members of the FP and Q12 experiencing these things throughout church history and at least some of the very recent and current members of the FP and Q12 have suggest that they do receive these things but have been commanded not to share them publicly.

Your bishop doesn't get revelation for the Church.

The Church is being lead by the 15 apostles.

Those are the people who need to be having visions and if they are having visions then you can say the Church is being led by visions. Your bishop is not a leader of the Church.

...

This is getting circular now. Everyone knows that a Bishop is a church leader.

The church is also the membership, a body of believers. If the local leaders and members have visions, then the church is being led by visions.

You also don't have any grounds to declare that no member of the FP or Q12 has ever had a vision.

So your argument doesn't hold water.

Do the 15 apostles go to local bishops to find out how to lead the Church?

According to the real leaders of the LDS church your bishop is not a church leader but a local lay person who has temporary stewardship over a ward and its boundaries. According to the CHI only the President can receive revelation for the whole Church.

According to the official LDS website local bishops are not included in the "leadership of the whole Church".

According to Sunday School manuals and other official church material and books a local bishop has no authority over the Church.

Nobody but you calls a bishop a Church leader. I've been a member my whole life. I know that you are completely and utterly ignorant or you are just gaslighting.

...

[LDS Watchman]

Nobody but you calls a bishop a Church leader.

Let's look at just one of MANY examples were Bishops are clearly designated as church leaders by the church. Here is question 4 from the current temple recommend questions:

Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?

Now, who might these "local leaders of the church" be referring to?

Hint: It's not the FP and Q12, as they were already mentioned earlier in the question.

[darknesstolight]

Nobody but you calls a bishop a Church leader.

Let's look at just one of MANY examples were Bishops are clearly designated as church leaders by the church. Here is question 4 from the current temple recommend questions:

Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?

Now, who might these "local leaders of the church" be referring to?

Hint: It's not the FP and Q12, as they were already mentioned earlier in the question.

LDS Watchman can a bishop receive revelation for the Church?

You are now arguing against the First Presidency and official Church doctrine.

Whoever your teacher is has done you a great disservice. The Head of the Church is the leadership and according to the Presidents they and the 12 are the leaders of the Church. My hand isn't my head and my hand doesn't tell my head what to do. My head tells my hand what to do.

A bishop having a vision is not proof that the Church is being lead by visions.

Now you are arguing that all members are leaders. So I had a revelation and I am a part of the Church but the Church has ignored my leadership!

...

[Reluctant Watchman]

Nobody but you calls a bishop a Church leader.

Let's look at just one of MANY examples were Bishops are clearly designated as church leaders by the church. Here is question 4 from the current temple recommend questions:

Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?

Now, who might these "local leaders of the church" be referring to?

Hint: It's not the FP and Q12, as they were already mentioned earlier in the question.

LDS Watchman can a bishop receive revelation for the Church?

You are now arguing against the First Presidency and official Church doctrine.

Whoever your teacher is has done you a great disservice. The Head of the Church is the leadership and according to the Presidents they and the 12 are the leaders of the Church. My hand isn't my head and my hand doesn't tell my head what to do. My head tells my hand what to do.

A bishop having a vision is not proof that the Church is being lead by visions.

Now you are arguing that all members are leaders. So I had a revelation and I am a part of the Church but the Church has ignored my leadership!

...

DTL, can any man receive revelation for the church? I would say the only instance this would be valid is when the people also receive a witness through the HG. “Prophets” (aka church leaders) have been wrong in the past. Recent actions by the Q15 are a prime example.

[LDS Watchman]

can a bishop receive revelation for the Church?

Yes, within his stewardship. You can ask the same question as many times as you want to, but the answer is the same.

You are now arguing against the First Presidency and official Church doctrine.

How by proving that the First Presidency and offical position of the church is that a bishop is a leader of the Church?

A bishop having a vision is not proof that the Church is being lead by visions.

Yes it is. You can claim that it isn't until the cows come home, but it still is.

[Gadianton Slayer]

If the bar for being “led by visions” is that one person in the entire organization claims to have had one, then that phrase is meaningless.

Also, LDS members or even “church leaders” are not the only ones capable of having visions… so I’m not sure what this discussion is about.

[LDS Watchman]

If the bar for being “led by visions” is that one person in the entire organization claims to have had one, then that phrase is meaningless.

Also, LDS members or even “church leaders” are not the only ones capable of having visions… so I’m not sure what this discussion is about.

This isn't rocket science. If members and leaders are having visions, then the claim that the church is not being led by visions at all is false.

And since I have first hand knowledge that this is happening and there have been reports of members at all levels having visions, then logically the church is in fact being led by visions, at minimum to a small extent.