LDS Freedom Forum

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

A thought occurred to me about this scripture yesterday. Could this be another scripture that points to John the Revelator as being the Davidic King?

Jesus is the Davidic King through his mother's bloodline, (also through Joseph's as an adopted son). Here, Jesus is basically naming John as his mother's new son, which is kind of odd considering Mary had other sons already, as well as daughters.

I know there are speculations already that John was Mary's sister's son, also giving him the bloodline, but this might take it to a new level.

If John was actually named heir here by Jesus, himself, and John is still alive, then John still holds the right to the mortal throne of Israel to this day. Just an interesting idea I've been pondering.

Also, I think Psalm 21 refers to John.

Psalm 21
1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.

4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

5 His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

7 For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.

Another thought just occurred that this would make every other claim to the throne false, including all those Merovingians and European royalty who claim the right to rule by blood.

What if Mary or some other person(s) were an identical twin?

I don’t know if John is the current Davidic king but I’m going to think about that for a while - very interesting. I believe he is a Melchizedek priest, without beginning of days or end of years, unlike the Aaronic priests, who die and have to be succeeded by their children.

I though this was interesting, that I also happened to come across today:

John also mentions the mother of Jesus at the crucifixion. He describes the women standing by the cross, but there is a problem with punctuation, and it is not certain how many women were there. The first mentioned is the mother of Jesus, but she is not named. This may be because her name was well known, but there may be something more. John may be implying the presence of the Lady. The other gospels do not mention the Virgin Mary at the cross; like John, they name Mary Magdalene, another Mary, and a third woman. John has the mysterious fourth woman with no name. We are told that Jesus entrusts his Mother to John, and he entrusts John to his Mother, which may mean no more than Jesus making provision for his Mother. But there is another possibility: that John became the son of Jesus’ heavenly Mother, another child of Wisdom, because John was the one to whom Jesus revealed his visions and his secret teaching. ~Margaret Barker Papers, Jesus the Nazorean (“Restorer”)

Wondering Wendy wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 9:05 am
Jesus is the Davidic King through his mother's bloodline, (also through Joseph's as an adopted son). Here, Jesus is basically naming John as his mother's new son, which is kind of odd considering Mary had other sons already, as well as daughters.

Do we have any scriptures that specifically say that Mary bore other children?

HereWeGo wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 2:18 pm

Wondering Wendy wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 9:05 am
Jesus is the Davidic King through his mother's bloodline, (also through Joseph's as an adopted son). Here, Jesus is basically naming John as his mother's new son, which is kind of odd considering Mary had other sons already, as well as daughters.

Do we have any scriptures that specifically say that Mary bore other children?

Yes. Matt. 12:46; 13:55; Mark 6:3; John 2:12; 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5; Gal. 1:19.

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

It's a good thought, I just don't see the two being paired together indicating anything beyond that, but it could. I think I'm very skeptical also of translated beings having such prominent roles, but that's another story.

When the "times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, I believe this means it gets turned over to John and the lost tribes of ISREAL. Whatever righteous remnant remains will be assisting him in building Zion.

I've had similar thoughts before. I made a post about it once, but the search tool is being annoying at the moment, and I can't be bothered.

One potential supporting evidence imo is the possibility that Isaiah 53:10 "when he makes his soul an offering for sin he shall see his seed" has some application for when Jesus looks down and *sees* John standing next to Mary and says "woman, behold thy son!", there might be something going on there. But take it w/ a grain of salt.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 3:30 pm It's a good thought, I just don't see the two being paired together indicating anything beyond that, but it could. I think I'm very skeptical also of translated beings having such prominent roles, but that's another story.

I dunno, this seems pretty prominent to me, whether he has a royal title or not.

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

D&C 77:14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

Also, all the people from the 1st resurrection, Priest and Kings, will be out and about in prominent roles, ruling and reigning with Christ during the Millennium. I also think the 144k will be translated and ministering before the Second Coming. These might very well include those of the 1st resurrection raised from the dead. I think this is part of the Father's strange, new act.

The scriptures speak of people being raised to immortality, yet I'm not certain if we get our final glorified bodies until after the White Throne Judgement. This is something they speculated about on the Iron Rod Podcast. I just don't know.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 3:35 pm When the "times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, I believe this means it gets turned over to John and the lost tribes of ISREAL. Whatever righteous remnant remains will be assisting him in building Zion.

yes, I believe so.

the correct spelling is
ISRAEL.

Gileadi
"Through his latter-day servant, the Lord concludes His work among the Gentiles and commences His work among the house of Israel: as the Lord's covenant, light, and ensign, the servant personifies the gospel that has hitherto served as a "covenant", "light", and "standard" to the Gentiles, as the gospel has been a "messenger" preparing the way before the Lord, so the servant is a "messenger" who prepares the way before the Lord's coming to earth."

from my post

we're not only in apostasy, (and have been for many many years) , but we've come to the point where
"The Times of the Gentiles" is ending.
and now God's judgments are going to come down on us (the Gentiles) because of our apostasy.
"where much is given, much is required"


"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
(which I believe is what has happened)

3 Nephi 26:
8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

Ether 4
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the
greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.


The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness." (the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

"A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible" is referring to the Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision
(the sealed portion) that the end-time servant brings to us - the church - to all the Gentiles - they will reject him and Christ's words.
*** (please see below)

The Book of Mormon comes forth to try the Gentiles' faith:
it contains but the "lesser part" of Jesus' words to the Nephites.(3 Nephi 26:8).
If the Gentiles will believe that portion - the Book of Mormon -
the Lord will manifest to them the greater things also.(3 Nephi 26:9).
The Book of Mormon, the record of a fallen people, contains warnings to the Gentiles: Moroni adds to the Book of Mormon a brief history of the Jaredites, addressing his abridgment specifically to the Gentiles.(Eth. 2:11).
He interrupts his account four times to speak directly to the them. (Eth. 2:9-12; 4:6-5; 8:23-26; 12:6-41).
Moroni has seen the Gentiles in a vision.(Morm 8:35). He tells them, therefore, things they should know.
The nation that does not serve God will be swept off the land. (Eth 2:9-10).
The Gentiles should repent and become clean before the Lord. (Eth. 4:6).
They should not allow secret combinations to get above them. (Eth 8:23-25).
They must exercise faith as did the ancients. (Eth. 12:6-31).
They must have hope and charity. (Eth.12:36-37).

Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
The Lord bids the Gentiles to come unto him.(Eth. 4:13).
In him they may be cleansed and sanctified. (Eth. 4:6-7).
The two following parallel statements tell the Gentiles the cause of their unbelief. Rhetorical markers are "when ye shall" and "then shall".

Ether 4
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shallye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. (emphasis added (Italicized) "when ye shall" "then shall"

The parallel nature of this scripture reveals a deeper meaning.
It teaches that people can rend the veil of unbelief- which has caused
them to remain in an awful state of wickedness, hardness of heart, and blindness of mind - by calling on the Father in the name of Jesus with a broken heart and a a contrite spirit.
It further teaches that the great and marvelous things hidden up from the foundation of the world are the Father's fulfillment of his covenant with the house of Israel, as contained in the revelations of John. These great and marvelous things, however, have not yet been revealed. As adverse as it may seem , we conclude from these scriptures, therefore, that many of us as Gentiles still remain in an awful state of wickedness. We have not yet rent the veil of our unbelief- we have not called upon the Father in the name of Jesus as we ought.
The Gentiles' rending of the veil is significant in this overall scripture. Moroni has just shown us how the Brother of Jared "rent the veil".
The Lord now bids the Gentiles to do the same.
When they exercise faith as the Brother of Jared saw.
In other words, the Lord invites the Gentiles to make their calling and election sure by being received into his presences as the Brother of Jared was.
When they do that, he will reveal to them the "greater things", unfolding to them all his revelations.
The Lord's great and marvelous work typifies the greater things.
The Lord performs that work among the Gentiles.
To that end, he sends among them the three Nephite disciples. The great and marvelous work involves the coming forth of the words of Christ.
The Father empowers a latter-day servant to bring forth the words of Christ to
the Gentiles. The servant is the light to the Gentiles. To him, they rally as to an ensign. When the Lord lifts up his hand and ensign to the Gentiles, they perform their saving mission to the house of Israel.
Through his latter-day servant, the Lord concludes His work among the Gentiles and commences His work among the house of Israel: as the Lord's covenant, light, and ensign, the servant personifies the gospel that has hitherto served as a "covenant", "light", and "standard" to the Gentiles, as the gospel has been a "messenger" preparing the way before the Lord, so the servant is a "messenger" who prepares the way before the Lord's coming to earth.

The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

*** Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse. When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people. He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it. With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them. He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.
Although the scriptures say that the Gentiles will perish, the Lord doesn't utterly destroy them. Some Gentiles, as we have seen, turn from their evil ways. Some don't harden their hearts. They don't unite with that great and abominable church nor fight against Zion. These Gentiles know where their blessings come from - they know that the Lord has blessed them with the blessings of Israel.
To save as many Gentiles as will come to him, the Lord calls on them before the day of judgement. he stirs up the Gentiles and the house of Israel in order to persuade them to repent. The Gentiles must repent and not continue in iniquity. They must forthwith repent and humble themselves. If they do, it will be well with them. As they repent and come to the Lord, he will be merciful to them. Those Gentiles who repent and obey the words of Christ will be blessed.
The Gentiles who come unto Christ receive baptism; they obtain a remission of their sins and are filled with the Holy Ghost. When the Gentiles come unto Christ, he shows them their weakness; yet his grace suffices for those who humble themselves. Faith, hope, and charity bring the Gentiles of Christ, the fountain of all righteousness. The Lord saves the righteous Gentiles both temporally and spiritually.
After manifesting himself to the Gentiles, the Lord manifests himself to the Jews. The gospel goes first to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel.
The Gentiles take the gospel to Lehi's descendants, and also to the Jews. The Twelve, the Seventy, and other Latter-day Saints assist in carrying the gospel of the Jews.

When the Lord lifts up his hand to the Gentiles, they serve as an "ensign/standard" to the house of Israel.
The house of Israel receives the Book of Mormon through the fullness of the Gentiles. That involves, additionally, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. "Other books" go forth from the righteous Gentiles to the house of Israel. These books convince the house of Israel of the truthfulness of the gospel and they are blessed again under the covenant.
The Lord softens many Gentiles' hearts toward Lehi's descendants. Many care for the house of Israel and sorrow for their destruction. They curse the house of Israel and serve as fathers and mothers to them. They minister the gospel's fullness to Lehi's descendants. The Lord consecrates the Gentiles' riches to the poor of the house of Israel.
Thus are the natural branches grafted back into the olive tree.
When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, the Jews again gather to Jerusalem. The righteous Gentiles assist the house of Israel in gathering them from dispersion; they carry the house of Israel to the lands fo their inheritance. They assist Lehi's descendants to gather to the New Jerusalem. They help Lehi's descendants build the city. The Lord's promises are great to the Gentiles. The Lord blesses the righteous Gentiles by numbering them with the house of Israel. The Lord numbers many Gentiles with Lehi's descendants. The Lord has promised this land to Lehi's descendants.
Like them, the righteous Gentiles are blessed on this land forever.
Like them, these Gentiles come down captive no more. The righteous Gentiles also are the covenant people of the Lord.

Analysis of the term Gentiles in the scriptures thus supports our earlier findings about the Gentiles; latter-day mission. But it yields a complete and more detailed picture of what that mission is all about. The question of identities - of Latter-day Saint "Gentiles" and other inhabitants of the Americas- is her resolved.
The twofold nature of the Gentiles in the last days- with some numbered among Lehi's descendants and others cut off from the Lord's people- transcends our Latter-day Saint identity. Those who make their calling and election sure are called "Gentiles", even as those cut off from the Lord's covenant are called "Gentiles". In the end, however, the repentant Gentiles assume the identity of the house of Israel whereas the unrepentant are destroyed. Together with other gentile inhabitants of the Americas, the unrepentant remain "Gentiles" and suffer God's judgments.
Latter-day Saints who fulfill their righteous mission, therefore, are known as Gentiles but only for an interim period.
The interval between the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the Lord's day of judgment serves as a time of probation that determines which identity will emerge. As with all the Lord's covenants, that probationary period enables us to prove our faithfulness and to receive the promised blessings. Just as the Jews anciently ministered the gospel to the Gentiles, so will the Gentiles minister it to the house of Israel."

*** (A)
As a natural branch of the olive tree (Romans 11:24), the Jews brought forth the Bible in its purity (1 Nephi 14:23) long before the Gentile church removed from it “many plain and precious parts” and “many covenants of the Lord” (1 Nephi 13:20–40). Of the Gentiles, God thus says, “O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?” (2 Nephi 29:4–6).

Because this scripture specifically addresses God’s people “in Zion” (2 Nephi 28:21, 24), it is the end-time descendants of Ephraim who have come through the Gentile lineages who come under this condemnation. A revelation given through the prophet Joseph Smith affirms this: “Your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion” (D&C 84:54–58).

Isaiah, in fact, informs us that “a scourge and judgment” will be poured out on many of the children of Zion who are of the tribe of Ephraim. In an entire chapter devoted to Ephraim and its prophets, Isaiah says, “A hail shall sweep away your false refuge and waters flood the hiding place.
Your covenant with death shall prove void, your understanding with Sheol have no effect: when the flooding scourge sweeps through, you shall be overrun by it. As often as it sweeps through, you shall be seized by it: morning after morning it shall sweep through, by day and by night [it shall seize you]; it shall cause terror merely to hear word of it” (Isaiah 28:17–19; cf. D&C 5:19). For those Ephraimites who believe his truth, on the other hand, God “lays in Zion a stone” (Isaiah 28:16; emphasis added)—an end-time seer—as an antidote to the flooding scourge that overruns the wicked.

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know.
The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).

Being There wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 8:20 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 3:35 pm When the "times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, I believe this means it gets turned over to John and the lost tribes of ISREAL. Whatever righteous remnant remains will be assisting him in building Zion.

yes, I believe so.

the correct spelling is
ISRAEL.

Gileadi
"Through his latter-day servant, the Lord concludes His work among the Gentiles and commences His work among the house of Israel: as the Lord's covenant, light, and ensign, the servant personifies the gospel that has hitherto served as a "covenant", "light", and "standard" to the Gentiles, as the gospel has been a "messenger" preparing the way before the Lord, so the servant is a "messenger" who prepares the way before the Lord's coming to earth."

from my post

we're not only in apostasy, (and have been for many many years) , but we've come to the point where
"The Times of the Gentiles" is ending.
and now God's judgments are going to come down on us (the Gentiles) because of our apostasy.
"where much is given, much is required"


"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
(which I believe is what has happened)

3 Nephi 26:
8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

Ether 4
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the
greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.


The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness." (the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

"A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible" is referring to the Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision
(the sealed portion) that the end-time servant brings to us - the church - to all the Gentiles - they will reject him and Christ's words.
*** (please see below)

The Book of Mormon comes forth to try the Gentiles' faith:
it contains but the "lesser part" of Jesus' words to the Nephites.(3 Nephi 26:8).
If the Gentiles will believe that portion - the Book of Mormon -
the Lord will manifest to them the greater things also.(3 Nephi 26:9).
The Book of Mormon, the record of a fallen people, contains warnings to the Gentiles: Moroni adds to the Book of Mormon a brief history of the Jaredites, addressing his abridgment specifically to the Gentiles.(Eth. 2:11).
He interrupts his account four times to speak directly to the them. (Eth. 2:9-12; 4:6-5; 8:23-26; 12:6-41).
Moroni has seen the Gentiles in a vision.(Morm 8:35). He tells them, therefore, things they should know.
The nation that does not serve God will be swept off the land. (Eth 2:9-10).
The Gentiles should repent and become clean before the Lord. (Eth. 4:6).
They should not allow secret combinations to get above them. (Eth 8:23-25).
They must exercise faith as did the ancients. (Eth. 12:6-31).
They must have hope and charity. (Eth.12:36-37).

Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
The Lord bids the Gentiles to come unto him.(Eth. 4:13).
In him they may be cleansed and sanctified. (Eth. 4:6-7).
The two following parallel statements tell the Gentiles the cause of their unbelief. Rhetorical markers are "when ye shall" and "then shall".

Ether 4
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shallye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. (emphasis added (Italicized) "when ye shall" "then shall"

The parallel nature of this scripture reveals a deeper meaning.
It teaches that people can rend the veil of unbelief- which has caused
them to remain in an awful state of wickedness, hardness of heart, and blindness of mind - by calling on the Father in the name of Jesus with a broken heart and a a contrite spirit.
It further teaches that the great and marvelous things hidden up from the foundation of the world are the Father's fulfillment of his covenant with the house of Israel, as contained in the revelations of John. These great and marvelous things, however, have not yet been revealed. As adverse as it may seem , we conclude from these scriptures, therefore, that many of us as Gentiles still remain in an awful state of wickedness. We have not yet rent the veil of our unbelief- we have not called upon the Father in the name of Jesus as we ought.
The Gentiles' rending of the veil is significant in this overall scripture. Moroni has just shown us how the Brother of Jared "rent the veil".
The Lord now bids the Gentiles to do the same.
When they exercise faith as the Brother of Jared saw.
In other words, the Lord invites the Gentiles to make their calling and election sure by being received into his presences as the Brother of Jared was.
When they do that, he will reveal to them the "greater things", unfolding to them all his revelations.
The Lord's great and marvelous work typifies the greater things.
The Lord performs that work among the Gentiles.
To that end, he sends among them the three Nephite disciples. The great and marvelous work involves the coming forth of the words of Christ.
The Father empowers a latter-day servant to bring forth the words of Christ to
the Gentiles. The servant is the light to the Gentiles. To him, they rally as to an ensign. When the Lord lifts up his hand and ensign to the Gentiles, they perform their saving mission to the house of Israel.
Through his latter-day servant, the Lord concludes His work among the Gentiles and commences His work among the house of Israel: as the Lord's covenant, light, and ensign, the servant personifies the gospel that has hitherto served as a "covenant", "light", and "standard" to the Gentiles, as the gospel has been a "messenger" preparing the way before the Lord, so the servant is a "messenger" who prepares the way before the Lord's coming to earth.

The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

*** Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse. When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people. He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it. With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them. He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.
Although the scriptures say that the Gentiles will perish, the Lord doesn't utterly destroy them. Some Gentiles, as we have seen, turn from their evil ways. Some don't harden their hearts. They don't unite with that great and abominable church nor fight against Zion. These Gentiles know where their blessings come from - they know that the Lord has blessed them with the blessings of Israel.
To save as many Gentiles as will come to him, the Lord calls on them before the day of judgement. he stirs up the Gentiles and the house of Israel in order to persuade them to repent. The Gentiles must repent and not continue in iniquity. They must forthwith repent and humble themselves. If they do, it will be well with them. As they repent and come to the Lord, he will be merciful to them. Those Gentiles who repent and obey the words of Christ will be blessed.
The Gentiles who come unto Christ receive baptism; they obtain a remission of their sins and are filled with the Holy Ghost. When the Gentiles come unto Christ, he shows them their weakness; yet his grace suffices for those who humble themselves. Faith, hope, and charity bring the Gentiles of Christ, the fountain of all righteousness. The Lord saves the righteous Gentiles both temporally and spiritually.
After manifesting himself to the Gentiles, the Lord manifests himself to the Jews. The gospel goes first to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel.
The Gentiles take the gospel to Lehi's descendants, and also to the Jews. The Twelve, the Seventy, and other Latter-day Saints assist in carrying the gospel of the Jews.

When the Lord lifts up his hand to the Gentiles, they serve as an "ensign/standard" to the house of Israel.
The house of Israel receives the Book of Mormon through the fullness of the Gentiles. That involves, additionally, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. "Other books" go forth from the righteous Gentiles to the house of Israel. These books convince the house of Israel of the truthfulness of the gospel and they are blessed again under the covenant.
The Lord softens many Gentiles' hearts toward Lehi's descendants. Many care for the house of Israel and sorrow for their destruction. They curse the house of Israel and serve as fathers and mothers to them. They minister the gospel's fullness to Lehi's descendants. The Lord consecrates the Gentiles' riches to the poor of the house of Israel.
Thus are the natural branches grafted back into the olive tree.
When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, the Jews again gather to Jerusalem. The righteous Gentiles assist the house of Israel in gathering them from dispersion; they carry the house of Israel to the lands fo their inheritance. They assist Lehi's descendants to gather to the New Jerusalem. They help Lehi's descendants build the city. The Lord's promises are great to the Gentiles. The Lord blesses the righteous Gentiles by numbering them with the house of Israel. The Lord numbers many Gentiles with Lehi's descendants. The Lord has promised this land to Lehi's descendants.
Like them, the righteous Gentiles are blessed on this land forever.
Like them, these Gentiles come down captive no more. The righteous Gentiles also are the covenant people of the Lord.

Analysis of the term Gentiles in the scriptures thus supports our earlier findings about the Gentiles; latter-day mission. But it yields a complete and more detailed picture of what that mission is all about. The question of identities - of Latter-day Saint "Gentiles" and other inhabitants of the Americas- is her resolved.
The twofold nature of the Gentiles in the last days- with some numbered among Lehi's descendants and others cut off from the Lord's people- transcends our Latter-day Saint identity. Those who make their calling and election sure are called "Gentiles", even as those cut off from the Lord's covenant are called "Gentiles". In the end, however, the repentant Gentiles assume the identity of the house of Israel whereas the unrepentant are destroyed. Together with other gentile inhabitants of the Americas, the unrepentant remain "Gentiles" and suffer God's judgments.
Latter-day Saints who fulfill their righteous mission, therefore, are known as Gentiles but only for an interim period.
The interval between the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the Lord's day of judgment serves as a time of probation that determines which identity will emerge. As with all the Lord's covenants, that probationary period enables us to prove our faithfulness and to receive the promised blessings. Just as the Jews anciently ministered the gospel to the Gentiles, so will the Gentiles minister it to the house of Israel."

*** (A)
As a natural branch of the olive tree (Romans 11:24), the Jews brought forth the Bible in its purity (1 Nephi 14:23) long before the Gentile church removed from it “many plain and precious parts” and “many covenants of the Lord” (1 Nephi 13:20–40). Of the Gentiles, God thus says, “O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?” (2 Nephi 29:4–6).

Because this scripture specifically addresses God’s people “in Zion” (2 Nephi 28:21, 24), it is the end-time descendants of Ephraim who have come through the Gentile lineages who come under this condemnation. A revelation given through the prophet Joseph Smith affirms this: “Your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion” (D&C 84:54–58).

Isaiah, in fact, informs us that “a scourge and judgment” will be poured out on many of the children of Zion who are of the tribe of Ephraim. In an entire chapter devoted to Ephraim and its prophets, Isaiah says, “A hail shall sweep away your false refuge and waters flood the hiding place.
Your covenant with death shall prove void, your understanding with Sheol have no effect: when the flooding scourge sweeps through, you shall be overrun by it. As often as it sweeps through, you shall be seized by it: morning after morning it shall sweep through, by day and by night [it shall seize you]; it shall cause terror merely to hear word of it” (Isaiah 28:17–19; cf. D&C 5:19). For those Ephraimites who believe his truth, on the other hand, God “lays in Zion a stone” (Isaiah 28:16; emphasis added)—an end-time seer—as an antidote to the flooding scourge that overruns the wicked.

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know.
The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).

as Gileadi put it -
"A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority.
These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant:
“Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8)."

just some extra info. - on the Lord"s servant that I posted some time ago to a comment someone made.

I just wonder how much Satan is screwing with us getting our focus on some man to save us
rather than keeping our eye on Christ.

my comment

my brother, I know what you're saying,
I've thought about this very thing for years now.

Just this morning, again I was thinking - NO ONE IS PUTTING JESUS CHRIST FIRST - like we should -
al our focus and attention on Christ - keeping our eye on Him.

Just look at this forum !
All the garbage - useless things - that so many are wasting there time talking about -
so many arguing about the most ridiculous and trivial things.
SATAN IS RAGING HERE !
WHAT DIVERSION - LEADING SO MANY AWAY FROM THE LORD.

BUT - believe me - if you know Jesus -
you will also then know and recognize His servant when he comes -
and will realize - why you should be looking for him.

This alone says volumes, and why we should be keeping this commandment - 3 Nephi 23:1- 4
because this Davidic Servant - is the theme in Isaiah.

and to repeat myself - and as I've said before -
(all below is a comment I made in another thread)

"I believe this is one of the reasons the Lord gave us a commandment
to search diligently the words of Isaiah - for great are the words of Isaiah -
is "Because the servant is a forerunner to Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth,
the roles of Jehovah and his servant are closely intertwined."

this end time servant's mission
will be more like Christ's than any other, he will personify Christ, and it's because of this,
and the scriptures that talk about him, that many have taken it to mean Christ, when it's really His servant.

that's all I'll say on this.
I've wasted enough time talking about it over the years in this forum.

You can believe what you want,
but Christ has a servant in these last days.
And ALL of Isaiah's words are for us - now,
and Christ has said that we are to study diligently Isaiah's words -
why ? not to just find out that it's talking about Him,
but because it's talking about His servant.
So it makes more sense - for Isaiah to be talking about the servant
than it does to be talking about Christ.

as I've previously posted -

"One of, if not THE most important thing relating to "Isaiah as Found in the Book of Mormon" is
Nephi's hidden message quoting Isaiah.
WHY did he do this ?
What, or WHO are these Chapters in Isaiah about ? **********


to repeat myself -
as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the book of Isaiah is the ONLY book, or words from a prophet that Jesus ever gave a commandment to read.

To all those of you who don't follow what Jesus said,
and do not keep this commandment; and don't think much of it, or care that much about it -

my question to you is;
WHY ? why would Jesus even tell us to read Isaiah; not only read but "search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."
Why ? !

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake (have been and shall be),
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

I would really like to hear what your reasoning is,
and your answers - the excuses you have for not only not keeping this commandment, but even more,
WHY ? is Jesus telling us to do this ?

what's so interesting is -

First,
here we have the Lord saying to us to read Isaiah, and " search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
and even giving us a commandment to do it -
(yet we don't even stop and ask ourselves WHY ! much less do it) why should we search diligently the words of Isaiah ? ? ?

and then Second
when we do what the Lord said - lo and behold, what do we find in the very first chapter of Isaiah ! ?

Isaiah 1
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into APOSTASY.



*********
Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/48#commentary
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, "Nephi is trying to tell us something indirectly what he himself cannot say directly.
"The things he was not permitted to say plainly - in order to protect those who may be spiritually vulnerable -
are quite appropriate for him to say indirectly.
He can do so at least in part by quoting Isaiah."

about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events, a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."

**********
Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3)"

just some more information that I've posted years ago on the Lord's servant and the gathering of Israel
and the EXODUS. etc.

BTW (my beliefs on some things have changed since then -- like the timing of Revelation 12)

(sorry for the repeat of some of the information)
so I will just copy and paste what I have; some things I have already said before about Rev. 12 sign, the "man child",
(the "woman" - the righteous saints) that God will provide a place of refuge for, "the great red dragon" - satan who was cast down to earth,
the food, etc..
* (also, this has been some years ago and my opinion might of changed on a few things; like when the tribulations actually start, etc.)

Revelation 12 sign

The One Mighty and Strong who is the "man child" spoken of in Revelation 12
which refers to the sign in the heavens that heralded the beginning of his mission.
Revelation 12 sign -
The stars were positioned in Virgo fulfilling this
on September 23, 2017
Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

"And now cometh the day of their calamity, even the days of sorrow,
like a woman that is taken in travail; and their sorrow shall be great
unless they speedily repent, yea, very speedily." (D&C 136:35)

Revelation 12
Verses 1 - the stars were in Virgo fulfilling this
on September 23, 2017
verse 2 - The beginning of the tribulation starts.
( "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.")
verse 5 - the "man child". is the Davidic prophet, the one mighty and strong
whom the dragon wants to destroy as soon as he appears. (verse 3-4)
The red dragon is symbolic of kingdoms of the world and Satan.
It also corresponds to a constellation, Hydrus.
verse 6 - "the woman" is the righteous remnant,
"where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." ( or 3 and a half years), equal to the time the beast has power and the duration of the tribulation.

This chapter is all about two end-times people:
The servant of God (also known as the one mighty and strong in other scriptures) and the servant of Satan (also known as the King of Assyria in Isaiah). The chapter weaves together imagery from a war in heaven that was fought before the world was created, signs in the heavens, and other imagery to explain how the servant of God and the servant of Satan will come on the scene and what their principle missions and dispositions will be.

As in other places, this Christ-symbology is used to describe the one mighty and strong, who is a type of Christ and has a holy mission more similar to Jesus' than anyone who has ever lived. This date provides a sign that marks the onset of the mission of the one mighty and strong.
Likewise, Satan symbology is used to describe the servant of the devil,
who is a type of Satan himself.

The man child is the one mighty and strong.
Some are thrown off by the phrase "rule all nations with a rod of iron." Yet, we know that God will appoint a man to sit on the throne of David, that this will be after God has thrown down all other nations, and that he will govern with the word of God ("rod of iron" in other places).

We are told in verse five that when Virgo brings forth Jupiter, the one mighty and strong will be caught up to God and his throne. It is important to distinguish the symbolism from the literal. Servants of God are caught up to his throne--literally carried to the throne of God--when they begin their ministry.
This happened, for example, with Isaiah and Ezekiel. When this happens, it will mark the beginning of Zion, which is in and around this servant.
The kingdom of God--this person and his following--will go into the wilderness as directed by God, to be protected from the desolation that comes after this point for three and a half years.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This passage parallels the description of the coming forth of the one mighty and strong.
Here we read of the coming forth of the servant of Satan. The language used to describe this is a recounting of the war in heaven that occurred before the earth was inhabited. Just as the one mighty and strong represents Christ coming to the earth again (though he is not Christ), the servant of Satan represents Satan himself. Just as the one mighty and strong will accomplish the work of Jesus on the earth, the servant of Satan will accomplish the work of the devil.
The start of the mission of each of these people will dramatically affect
life on earth.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


The kingdom of the devil will rise up and persecute the kingdom of God in an unprecedented manner as soon as the mission of these two begin. The calling of the one mighty and strong will initiate a physical gathering to places of safety in the wilderness. Meanwhile, Christians everywhere will be persecuted.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

This flood is not symbolic. The places of safety will be in the Rocky Mountains in the USA.
The flood could be caused by man-made nuclear tsunamis on the west coast of the US. Far fetched?
The Russians have designed and leaked equipment and plans to do just that.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Again, this is not symbolic. There will be an earthquake that will cause the waters to subside somewhat.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There will be a literal war between those who believe in God
and those who do not.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of this below is a quote from someone

THE EXODUS

"When the Savior was speaking to his disciples they wanted to know the signs of his coming and of the end of the world. He told them many things: there would be False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, and the gospel would be preached in all the world for the last time. (Matthew 24). The chronology is all jumbled and out of order.
Luke gives a similar account but it is better, especially because Joseph Smith translated and corrected some of the verses:

Luke 17:26-37

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Savior is talking about the time just before the tribulation begins. In fact, he is talking about the time just before the civil war and unrest begin in the United States. He refers to his coming as the beginning of the days of tribulation and judgment so before he begins either, people are living pretty much as normal.
But in one night at the beginning of the tribulation, there is a massive leaving of people: one from bed, one from the field, and so on. The disciples ask the obvious question, "Where are they taken?" The Lord answers with another riddle. He tells them that where the body is, the eagles will be gathered together. The Joseph Smith translation gives the explanation:

Joseph Smith translation
JST, Luke 17:36–38.
Compare Luke 17:37

36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?

37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

38 This he spake, signifying the gathering of his saints; and of angels descending and gathering the remainder unto them; the one from the bed, the other from the grinding, and the other from the field, whithersoever he listeth.

This is the manner in which the exodus will take place. The eagle wings given to the woman are the angels who gather the righteous remnant in one night and transport them to the wilderness where the saints are collected into one body. Eagles refer to angels or to translated beings in Hebrew metaphorical language.
The eagles are also the righteous ones who are gathered out in this miraculous manner and taken to the wilderness. Isaiah says:

Isaiah 40:
31 But they who hope in Jehovah shall be renewed in strength:they shall ascend as on eagles’ wings;they shall run without wearying,they shall walk and not faint.

And:

Isaiah 60:
8 Who are these, aloft like clouds,flying as doves to their portals?

This is the fulfillment of the promise in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It is realized by those who are taken on the exodus because there will be the elderly, the infirm and the very young. All will be renewed in their bodies and translated during the course of the exodus. The gathering of the eagles will occur in one night or day, depending on which hemisphere you are in, so some will be in the fields while others will be sleeping. The righteous remnant who are to go on the exodus will be taken from the worthy members wherever they are in the world. Unlike the first exodus, however, the people will not take any possessions or supplies. They will go in the clothing they are wearing and will not be allowed to go back for their "stuff". The Lord will provide for the people. He will place a canopy over them to protect from the sun and the other elements:

Isaiah 4:5-6
5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.
6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.

Mount Zion is the nation of Zion formed in the day the exodus takes place. This is the puzzle cited earlier:

Isaiah 66: 7-9
7 Before she is in labor, she gives birth;before her ordeal overtakes her, she delivers a son!
8 Who has heard the like,or who has seen such things? Can the earth labor but a day and a nation be born at once? For as soon as she was in labor,Zion gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to a crisis and not bring on birth?says Jehovah.When it is I who cause the birth,shall I hinder it? says your God.

So we now can solve the riddle. The Davidic prophet was born before she was in labor, or before the tribulation began. But then the tribulation begins which is the labor of the woman in bringing forth her children. The labor lasts only one day and the nation is born at once. The exodus happens in one day at the beginning of the tribulation and the nation of Zion is created.
Is is not clear how long the righteous remnant will have to endure the tribulation when it begins, but it will not be long because the exodus happens "as soon as she was in labor". This is a great comfort to the truly righteous remnant in the church because they will escape the captivity, or most of it, and the cruel oppression which the rest of the church will suffer throughout the world, especially in this country.

Isaiah 33:14-19
14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;the godless are in the grip of trembling:Who among us can live through the devouring fire?Who among us can abide eternal burning?
15 They who conduct themselves righteously and are honest in word,who disdain extortion and stay their hand from taking bribes,who stop their ears at the mention of murder,who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.Bread is provided them, their water is sure.
17 Your eyes shall behold the King in his glory and view the expanse of the earth. 18 You shall recount in your mind the terror:Where are those who conducted the census?Where are those who levied the tax?Where are the ones who appraised the towers?
19 The insolent people are not to be seen,a nation of incomprehensible speech,whose babbling tongue was unintelligible.

Isaiah describes the condition among the church members when the tribulation arrives. They are struck with fear and trembling. They are two dangers: the devouring fire, which is the kind of Assyria and the eternal burning which is the Lord. Either way there is death. But he gives some of the attributes of those who can escape.
Those who are righteous will escape, that is, those who are not idolaters (seeking bribes and filling their heads with TV violence, murder and other wickedness). They who have these attributes and one other that we will mention, will go on the exodus which is described here. They will be taken to the wilderness, which is the mountain country around here, where those on the exodus will be. The cliffs are impregnable and will be their fortress.
Perhaps the greatest blessing on the exodus will be the privilege of seeing the glorified Lord along with the Davidic prophet/king. The kind spoken of here is probably the Davidic king but elsewhere the Lord says he will be with the people and they will see him. During this trek, the people will be taught both by the Davidic prophet and by the Lord.
In order to be in the presence of the Lord, one has to be translated and indeed, those who go on the exodus will be translated and during the 42 months of the exodus, they will have their call and election made sure."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Seven Year Tribulation Period

Isaiah 28

2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong:
as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters,
he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant,
who makes an end of him at the last.

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies (Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(the "woman" is the righteous saints)
(A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(repentant remnant from the righteous saints)


Unrepentant saints - bondage for " a time and times and the dividing of time" "forty and two months"
(3 1/2 years)

Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

"time" equals 1.
"times" equals 2.
" a dividing of time" equals 1/2.
If you add up 1+2+1/2, that equals 3 1/2 years.

The tribulation is 7 years. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 = 7

A thousand two hundred and threescore days is 1,260 days
(a score equals 20),
1,260 days (which is 42 months, or 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are struck with fear;
the godless are in the grip of trembling:
Who among us can live through the devouring fire?
Who among us can abide eternal burning?

When a Sodom-and-Gomorrah type of destruction materializes, the wicked who dwell with Jehovah’s people “in Zion” give way to fear and trembling. Spiritually and physically unprepared for calamity, they realize with trepidation that their end is near. Their disloyalty to Jehovah prevents them from believing that “whatever weapon is devised against you, it shall not succeed” (Isaiah 54:17), or that “whoever wars against you shall be reduced to nothing” (Isaiah 41:12). Physical fire—at the hands of the king of Assyria/Babylon—and “eternal burning” in the hereafter await them.

15 They who conduct themselves righteously
and are honest in word,
who disdain extortion
and stay their hand from taking bribes,
who stop their ears at the mention of murder,
who shut their eyes at the sight of wickedness.
16 They shall dwell on high;
the impregnable cliffs are their fortress.
Bread is provided them, their water is sure.

Those who survive the devouring fire are Jehovah’s elect, his holy and valiant ones (Isaiah 4:4; 13:3, 19; 14:30-32). Although they live in a wicked society—amidst “extortion,” “bribes,” “murder,” and “wickedness”—they exercise scrupulous integrity.
They are a people apart, made up of individuals determined to maintain justice and righteousness at all costs (Isaiah 26:7; 57:2; 61:7-9).
Even in their wilderness retreat, food and water remain covenant blessings (Isaiah 7:21-22; 41:17-18; 49:9-10): “Tell the righteous it shall be well with them; they shall eat the fruits of their own labors” (Isaiah 3:10).


Those who sanctify themselves, who participate in Zion’s “solemn assembly,” enjoy Jehovah’s divine protection in the place Zion, also called “Mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:13-14, Isaiah 8:13-14, 18; 24:23; 24:23). Jehovah’s cloud of glory—signifying his presence (Exodus 24:15-18; 33:8-11)—makes glorious his holy people and the place where they abide. By its means, Jehovah protected ancient Israel when he appeared among his people during their wilderness travels (Exodus 13:20-22; 14:19-20). Jehovah’s “canopy”—as in a traditional marriage canopy—denotes his people’s renewal of their covenant with him at that time.

Isaiah 4:5-6
5 Over the whole site of Mount Zion, and over its solemn assembly, Jehovah will form a cloud by day and a mist glowing with fire by night: above all that is glorious shall be a canopy.
6 It shall be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, a secret refuge from the downpour and from rain.


Jehovah’s cloud of glory (v 5) acts as a shelter, shade, and secret refuge from the heat and downpour—that is, from the elements and from the king of Assyria/Babylon in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment (Isaiah 25:4-5). As Pharaoh’s armies were unable to penetrate the cloud when they pursued after Jehovah’s people (Exodus 14:19-20), so in that day will no enemies molest those who participate in Zion’s solemn assemblies. According to the terms of his covenant, Jehovah is obligated to protect his people when they keep his law and word.
His divine intervention attests to their utmost compliance.


Joseph Smith: "...without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered." --DHC 2:52

Being There wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 8:32 pm
BUT - believe me - if you know Jesus -
you will also then know and recognize His servant when he comes -
and will realize - why you should be looking for him.

This alone says volumes, and why we should be keeping this commandment - 3 Nephi 23:1- 4
because this Davidic Servant - is the theme in Isaiah.

and to repeat myself - and as I've said before -
(all below is a comment I made in another thread)

"I believe this is one of the reasons the Lord gave us a commandment
to search diligently the words of Isaiah - for great are the words of Isaiah -
is "Because the servant is a forerunner to Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth,
the roles of Jehovah and his servant are closely intertwined."

this end time servant's mission
will be more like Christ's than any other, he will personify Christ, and it's because of this,
and the scriptures that talk about him, that many have taken it to mean Christ, when it's really His servant.

that's all I'll say on this.
I've wasted enough time talking about it over the years in this forum.

You can believe what you want,
but Christ has a servant in these last days.
And ALL of Isaiah's words are for us - now,
and Christ has said that we are to study diligently Isaiah's words -
why ? not to just find out that it's talking about Him,
but because it's talking about His servant.
So it makes more sense - for Isaiah to be talking about the servant
than it does to be talking about Christ.

as I've previously posted -

"One of, if not THE most important thing relating to "Isaiah as Found in the Book of Mormon" is
Nephi's hidden message quoting Isaiah.
WHY did he do this ?
What, or WHO are these Chapters in Isaiah about ? **********

Lengthy post there Being, but your analysis is superb. Especially this part here I quoted... I think you crystallized it very well. Thank you!

John was Christ's son. It was hidden (even in the scriptures) along with identification of his wives to protect them. They had to flee after his death. There is a church in France that claim to have artifacts and in England the grave of Mary. "The beloved" was a phrase referring to a son. Check out the painting of the Last Supper. Don't you think it odd that an apostle would lay his head on Christ's bosom like that? It also shows he was young - and that is something a son would do. Why is he the apostle that continued to live? Why would he think he could? Why does he inherit and have so many roles & power? Lots of clues once you open your eyes. Speculation I know - can't know for sure - but pretty interesting. Once I got a few pieces . . . I started seeing many others through the scriptures.

Earthling wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:40 pm John was Christ's son. It was hidden (even in the scriptures) along with identification of his wives to protect them. They had to flee after his death. There is a church in France that claim to have artifacts and in England the grave of Mary. "The beloved" was a phrase referring to a son. Check out the painting of the Last Supper. Don't you think it odd that an apostle would lay his head on Christ's bosom like that? It also shows he was young - and that is something a son would do. Why is he the apostle that continued to live? Why would he think he could? Why does he inherit and have so many roles & power? Lots of clues once you open your eyes. Speculation I know - can't know for sure - but pretty interesting. Once I got a few pieces . . . I started seeing many others through the scriptures.

Uhhh, I'm not sure what painting of the last supper you're looking at, but you lost me somewhere. I'm very interested in your theory however, so please write a follow-up post with something more substantial.

The last supper was painted almost 1500 years after Jesus's ministry.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Las ... (Leonardo)

John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
I can't think. that was socially appropriate even then unless he was his child. They had very strict rules for touching people, no other apostle did that sort of thing, and none of them thought anything of it.

Beloved Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Websterhttps://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › beloved
The meaning of BELOVED is dearly loved. John is known as the beloved disciple. Why is John singled out this way? Also why doesn't this favoritism upset the other apostles? They could get jealous as seen from another account of them arguing over who is greatest in the kingdom of God.

The scriptures tell of several times when Heavenly Father has introduced his Son, Jesus Christ. Each time, he has introduced the Savior by calling him his “Beloved Son.” So the word beloved in scripture has been coupled with referring to God's son. I can't think of another time it's been used?

Baylor University on google: "Is John the Beloved disciple? In the Gospel of John, the beloved disciple emerges as a close, personal friend of the Lord. Along with Martha, Lazarus, and Mary, John is described explicitly in this Gospel as one whom Jesus loved (see John 11:3, 5)."

Why did Christ give John charge over his mother if he wasn't family? Especially when Mary had other children including 4 other sons. Again that would have been inappropriate in those times if he wasn't related.
Google: "The brothers of Jesus are named in the New Testament as James, Joses (a form of Joseph), Simon, and Jude, and unnamed sisters are mentioned in Mark and Matthew."

Also John is known as the youngest apostle. At age 30 could Christ have a young son? Would he be old enough to be a disciple? Age 12?
If Christ had a 12 year old and being his son he would have the spiritual maturity to be an apostle.

So that's just the loved/beloved part. There is a huge amount when you get into John's roles. Even though Peter was the chief apostle, John is given incredible roles. Doesn't it make sense that Christ would entrust his church &the apostolic authority after the death of all the other apostles to his son? Also referring to the subject of this thread - is John the current King of Israel?

Well - don't know for sure but keep watching when you study John's roles since the death of Christ especially in the last days. Now that is another huge subject which from my study confirms this idea even more. Maybe some of you could post things you find on that subject.

Earthling wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:40 pm John was Christ's son. It was hidden (even in the scriptures) along with identification of his wives to protect them. They had to flee after his death. There is a church in France that claim to have artifacts and in England the grave of Mary. "The beloved" was a phrase referring to a son. Check out the painting of the Last Supper. Don't you think it odd that an apostle would lay his head on Christ's bosom like that? It also shows he was young - and that is something a son would do. Why is he the apostle that continued to live? Why would he think he could? Why does he inherit and have so many roles & power? Lots of clues once you open your eyes. Speculation I know - can't know for sure - but pretty interesting. Once I got a few pieces . . . I started seeing many others through the scriptures.

Wow, I had never heard of or considered this and I really appreciate you sharing it here

Earthling wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2022, 8:06 am John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
I can't think. that was socially appropriate even then unless he was his child. They had very strict rules for touching people, no other apostle did that sort of thing, and none of them thought anything of it.

Beloved Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Websterhttps://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › beloved
The meaning of BELOVED is dearly loved. John is known as the beloved disciple. Why is John singled out this way? Also why doesn't this favoritism upset the other apostles? They could get jealous as seen from another account of them arguing over who is greatest in the kingdom of God.

The scriptures tell of several times when Heavenly Father has introduced his Son, Jesus Christ. Each time, he has introduced the Savior by calling him his “Beloved Son.” So the word beloved in scripture has been coupled with referring to God's son. I can't think of another time it's been used?

Baylor University on google: "Is John the Beloved disciple? In the Gospel of John, the beloved disciple emerges as a close, personal friend of the Lord. Along with Martha, Lazarus, and Mary, John is described explicitly in this Gospel as one whom Jesus loved (see John 11:3, 5)."

Why did Christ give John charge over his mother if he wasn't family? Especially when Mary had other children including 4 other sons. Again that would have been inappropriate in those times if he wasn't related.
Google: "The brothers of Jesus are named in the New Testament as James, Joses (a form of Joseph), Simon, and Jude, and unnamed sisters are mentioned in Mark and Matthew."

Also John is known as the youngest apostle. At age 30 could Christ have a young son? Would he be old enough to be a disciple? Age 12?
If Christ had a 12 year old and being his son he would have the spiritual maturity to be an apostle.

So that's just the loved/beloved part. There is a huge amount when you get into John's roles. Even though Peter was the chief apostle, John is given incredible roles. Doesn't it make sense that Christ would entrust his church &the apostolic authority after the death of all the other apostles to his son? Also referring to the subject of this thread - is John the current King of Israel?

Well - don't know for sure but keep watching when you study John's roles since the death of Christ especially in the last days. Now that is another huge subject which from my study confirms this idea even more. Maybe some of you could post things you find on that subject.

How do you account for the NT repeatedly stating that John and his brother James were the sons of Zebedee?

Joseph Smith in his council of 50, had himself crowned King of Israel in these last days.
Brigham young declared Joseph was his god, as did his counsellor Kimball whom also called Brigham his god. So Brigham acknowledged Josephs anointing.
William Law, a member of the First presidency at the time of the council of 50 meeting also stated similiar, that Joseph had set himself up as god in the council of fifty.
And so according to Mormon leadership of those times Joseph Smith is the Messiah of Israel and god in these last days.

"What the Lord said concerning Israel setting up kings for themselves"
And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you;
for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me,
that I should not reign over them.
According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt,
even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods.

‘No, we must have a king to rule over us’— even though the LORD your God was your king.

Personally for me Jesus of Nazerath is the King of Israel and her God, yesterday, today and forever.

I am sure John the Apostle agrees with me...........

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2022, 9:16 am Joseph Smith in his council of 50, had himself crowned King of Israel, High Priest, Prophet and god in these last days.
Brigham young declared Joseph was his god, as did his counsellor Kimball whom also called Brigham his god. So Brigham acknowledged Josephs anionting.
William Law, a member of the First presidency at the time of the council of 50 meeting also stated similiar, that Joseph had set himself up as god in the council of fifty.
And so according to Mormon leadership of those times Joseph Smith is the Messiah of Israel and god in these last days.

"What the Lord said concerning Israel setting up kings for themselves"
And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you;
for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me,
that I should not reign over them.
According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt,
even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods.

‘No, we must have a king to rule over us’— even though the LORD your God was your king.

Personally for me Jesus of Nazerath is the King of Israel and her God, yesterday, today and forever.

I am sure John the Apostle agrees with me...........

Your understanding is limited.
This is how Christ becomes King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
That's not just poetry, it's a literal description of the situation.

Earthling wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 10:40 pm John was Christ's son. It was hidden (even in the scriptures) along with identification of his wives to protect them. They had to flee after his death. There is a church in France that claim to have artifacts and in England the grave of Mary. "The beloved" was a phrase referring to a son. Check out the painting of the Last Supper. Don't you think it odd that an apostle would lay his head on Christ's bosom like that? It also shows he was young - and that is something a son would do. Why is he the apostle that continued to live? Why would he think he could? Why does he inherit and have so many roles & power? Lots of clues once you open your eyes. Speculation I know - can't know for sure - but pretty interesting. Once I got a few pieces . . . I started seeing many others through the scriptures.

How do you account for the NT repeatedly stating that John and his brother James were the sons of Zebedee?
[/quote]

Back to the part where they hid the wives and children of Christ to protect them. The DaVinci Code book was based on this premise which was based on old traditions. I've read multiple times in my study about this in the past but don't have the references. Joseph of Arimathea supposedly was related to the family and arranged their escape. There is a lot out there about Mary Magdalene fleeing. If you think Herod came after Christ as a baby . . . what do you think the Jewish elders, Herod, etc. would do with children of someone who claimed to be king, immortal, the Messiah, etc.?

There is scripture saying John was a son of Zebedee. We know that there are errors in the New Testament. So compare that to all the other evidence you will find. I am open-minded on this and could be wrong. I'm happy to see thoughts both ways but do start looking at all the roles of John including through the last days and ask why? I always wondered why it was he out of all the apostles? Just because he asked to not die? Lots of food for thought here. If interested, start digging into the roles of John. This one won't be settled in my mind until there is more revelation on the subject.

Earthling wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2022, 9:23 pm How do you account for the NT repeatedly stating that John and his brother James were the sons of Zebedee?

Back to the part where they hid the wives and children of Christ to protect them. The DaVinci Code book was based on this premise which was based on old traditions. I've read multiple times in my study about this in the past but don't have the references. Joseph of Arimathea supposedly was related to the family and arranged their escape. There is a lot out there about Mary Magdalene fleeing. If you think Herod came after Christ as a baby . . . what do you think the Jewish elders, Herod, etc. would do with children of someone who claimed to be king, immortal, the Messiah, etc.?

There is scripture saying John was a son of Zebedee. We know that there are errors in the New Testament. So compare that to all the other evidence you will find. I am open-minded on this and could be wrong. I'm happy to see thoughts both ways but do start looking at all the roles of John including through the last days and ask why? I always wondered why it was he out of all the apostles? Just because he asked to not die? Lots of food for thought here. If interested, start digging into the roles of John. This one won't be settled in my mind until there is more revelation on the subject.
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Fair enough.

But it would seem to me that if the writers of the NT wanted to hide this, they could simply have not mentioned the parentage of James or John, like the other apostles.

Also, if John was Jesus' son, then the other apostles wouldn't have any reason to be jealous that he was close to his father.

And what of James? Do you think he was also Jesus' son?