LDS Freedom Forum

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:11 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 5:45 am

Luke wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 5:22 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 5:08 am It’s unfortunate that Adam never actually said those words and it’s all a made up dialogue, straight from wild imaginations.

How do you know this?

Isn’t it suspicious that we are never told the origins of the dialogue? And even if so, there’s no doctrine to support the storyline.
We’re just supposed to believe it all.
A ceremony of oaths partially derived from masonry is not one that is accurate or trustworthy.
Jesus Christ was the end of all oaths and ordinances. He was very clear about it.

I remember years ago listening to Hugh Nibley talking about an ancient document discovery in which Adam being visited by three messengers is referenced.
Can't remember any details.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 1:47 pm

itsmerich wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 8:45 pm Hey all,

In the temple (this isn't secret, but if not allowed please remove) Adam says for us to listen to the 3 apostles and heed to their word.
But they dont do anything/say anything after this is said. I was trying to figure out what this part means.

He clearly says listen to these THREE - surely he can't be referencing their New testament contributions

Any ideas?

thanks all!

Everything Adam does in the endowment until he talks to Christ through the veil is wrong. This is very clear when he prays over the alter using vain repetition, asking God to hear the words of his mouth and not the true intents of his heart, etc. He performed the prayer in exactly the wrong way to pray. God doesn't hear him because his pray sucks. Satan does hear him.

To your question, Adam is looking for messengers from his Father because he isn't able to talk to his Father himself personally. At any time, he could pray correctly and talk with God through the veil. But, he doesn't. He looks for messengers from his Father, like going to a prophet to inquire of the prophet concerning God rather than going to God directly. God never said we should look for messengers or go to prophets to inquire of God. Here's what God said on this topic.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Here's what the Lord said when the Elders went to the prophet Ezekiel (messenger from the Father) to inquire of him concerning God...

Ezekiel 14
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart (the prophet/messenger who speaks for God), and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols (Prophets who speak for God are the idols of God) in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols (prophet/messengers from the Father).
6 ¶ Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols (Prophet/Messengers from the Father); and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart (Look for messengers from the Father rather than going to God directly), and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

When Adam is speaking to the Lord through the veil, the Lord asks him about what he learned. Everything he learned up to that point was learned in some other way than from the Lord directly through the spirit. So, nothing he learned is of God.

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

When Adam tells the Lord what he learned, the Lord doesn't confirm it as right or wrong. He just moves on. The only time that the Lord says, "THAT is right." is when Adam repeats what he learned from the Lord through the veil. It is the only thing that Adam got right because everything else he learned was not of God.
Speaking to the Lord through the veil means hearing his voice which is his spirit and not seeing him.

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Also, we know that Adam was considered wicked through the entire endowment until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He was wicked because the Lord said that the difference between the wicked and the righteous is that the righteous hear and follow his voice (the spirit) and the wicked do not. Until Adam truly prayed and spoke to the Lord through the veil, he was wicked and doing everything wrong.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

Adam had not heard the Lord's voice until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He should have done that in the first 5 minutes and avoided nearly the entire endowment. Then he would have been welcomed into the church of Christ and into his presence. Adam instead did what we all tend to do by following some strange convoluted path that they think is progress but isn't at all. Adam was wicked until he spoke to the Lord directly. It didn't matter who he followed, what he did or how much he thinks he progressed before that point, he was still not redeemed from the fall, not welcome into Christ's church, and not considered righteous.

When Adam discovers messengers from his Father, he sets up an idol and begins to follow them, just like the church Elders in Ezekiel 14 did. he tells you to follow them too, not to listen to and follow the voice of the Lord/the spirit. This is bad advice. It doesn't matter if the three apostles give good advice or bad advice, following them will not qualify you to be redeemed. Following them will not make you part of Christ's church or righteous. It is a distraction from the real and true spirituality and word of God. It is being blinded by the craftiness of men.

~Seeker

Interesting thoughts.
However, the reason Adam was looking for messengers from his Father is because earlier in the presentation the Father promised to send him some.
In fact, there is even dialogue between Jehovah and Elohim in which Jehovah reports that Adam is waiting for the "messengers YOU promised to send" (emphasis in the dialogue).
Adam was waiting for God to do what he said he would do.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:11 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 5:45 am

Luke wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 5:22 am

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 5:08 am It’s unfortunate that Adam never actually said those words and it’s all a made up dialogue, straight from wild imaginations.

How do you know this?

Isn’t it suspicious that we are never told the origins of the dialogue? And even if so, there’s no doctrine to support the storyline.
We’re just supposed to believe it all.
A ceremony of oaths partially derived from masonry is not one that is accurate or trustworthy.
Jesus Christ was the end of all oaths and ordinances. He was very clear about it.

I remember years ago listening to Hugh Nibley talking about an ancient document discovery in which Adam being visited by three messengers is referenced.
Can't remember any details.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:19 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 1:47 pm

itsmerich wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 8:45 pm Hey all,

In the temple (this isn't secret, but if not allowed please remove) Adam says for us to listen to the 3 apostles and heed to their word.
But they dont do anything/say anything after this is said. I was trying to figure out what this part means.

He clearly says listen to these THREE - surely he can't be referencing their New testament contributions

Any ideas?

thanks all!

Everything Adam does in the endowment until he talks to Christ through the veil is wrong. This is very clear when he prays over the alter using vain repetition, asking God to hear the words of his mouth and not the true intents of his heart, etc. He performed the prayer in exactly the wrong way to pray. God doesn't hear him because his pray sucks. Satan does hear him.

To your question, Adam is looking for messengers from his Father because he isn't able to talk to his Father himself personally. At any time, he could pray correctly and talk with God through the veil. But, he doesn't. He looks for messengers from his Father, like going to a prophet to inquire of the prophet concerning God rather than going to God directly. God never said we should look for messengers or go to prophets to inquire of God. Here's what God said on this topic.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Here's what the Lord said when the Elders went to the prophet Ezekiel (messenger from the Father) to inquire of him concerning God...

Ezekiel 14
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart (the prophet/messenger who speaks for God), and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols (Prophets who speak for God are the idols of God) in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols (prophet/messengers from the Father).
6 ¶ Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols (Prophet/Messengers from the Father); and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart (Look for messengers from the Father rather than going to God directly), and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

When Adam is speaking to the Lord through the veil, the Lord asks him about what he learned. Everything he learned up to that point was learned in some other way than from the Lord directly through the spirit. So, nothing he learned is of God.

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

When Adam tells the Lord what he learned, the Lord doesn't confirm it as right or wrong. He just moves on. The only time that the Lord says, "THAT is right." is when Adam repeats what he learned from the Lord through the veil. It is the only thing that Adam got right because everything else he learned was not of God.
Speaking to the Lord through the veil means hearing his voice which is his spirit and not seeing him.

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Also, we know that Adam was considered wicked through the entire endowment until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He was wicked because the Lord said that the difference between the wicked and the righteous is that the righteous hear and follow his voice (the spirit) and the wicked do not. Until Adam truly prayed and spoke to the Lord through the veil, he was wicked and doing everything wrong.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

Adam had not heard the Lord's voice until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He should have done that in the first 5 minutes and avoided nearly the entire endowment. Then he would have been welcomed into the church of Christ and into his presence. Adam instead did what we all tend to do by following some strange convoluted path that they think is progress but isn't at all. Adam was wicked until he spoke to the Lord directly. It didn't matter who he followed, what he did or how much he thinks he progressed before that point, he was still not redeemed from the fall, not welcome into Christ's church, and not considered righteous.

When Adam discovers messengers from his Father, he sets up an idol and begins to follow them, just like the church Elders in Ezekiel 14 did. he tells you to follow them too, not to listen to and follow the voice of the Lord/the spirit. This is bad advice. It doesn't matter if the three apostles give good advice or bad advice, following them will not qualify you to be redeemed. Following them will not make you part of Christ's church or righteous. It is a distraction from the real and true spirituality and word of God. It is being blinded by the craftiness of men.

~Seeker

Interesting thoughts.
However, the reason Adam was looking for messengers from his Father is because earlier in the presentation the Father promised to send him some.
In fact, there is even dialogue between Jehovah and Elohim in which Jehovah reports that Adam is waiting for the "messengers YOU promised to send" (emphasis in the dialogue).
Adam was waiting for God to do what he said he would do.

And yet, he was still wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until Adam approached the veil and commuted with God for himself. Even though he made covenants given to him bu the messengers, acting forand on behalf of God following His instructions to them. All of Israel followed Moses who was a trie messenger from the Father and yet nothing they did as part of the law of Moses could save them including the rituals, animal sacrifices and Baptisms performed by the Aaronic priesthood they held, obedience to laws, etc. All the following of God's true messenger Mosses helped them qualify to be redeemed, made them spiritually members of Christ's church or even righteous. A person could keep all the laws and ordinances given by Moses who was a true messenger from the Father and still be wicked. Nothing Peter, James and John get Adam to covenant makes him righteous. He was wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until the veil when he talked to God for himself. Adam following Peter, James and John as they were instructed by the Lord is the same as Isreal following Moses. It didn't save Israel, it didn't save Adam and it doesn't save us.

Adam fell because he stopped hearing and following God's voice to him directly. He was no longer in God's presence. We are not redeemed until we can hear His voice again and are brought back into his presence.

~Seeker

D&C 22
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:44 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:19 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 1:47 pm
Everything Adam does in the endowment until he talks to Christ through the veil is wrong. This is very clear when he prays over the alter using vain repetition, asking God to hear the words of his mouth and not the true intents of his heart, etc. He performed the prayer in exactly the wrong way to pray. God doesn't hear him because his pray sucks. Satan does hear him.

To your question, Adam is looking for messengers from his Father because he isn't able to talk to his Father himself personally. At any time, he could pray correctly and talk with God through the veil. But, he doesn't. He looks for messengers from his Father, like going to a prophet to inquire of the prophet concerning God rather than going to God directly. God never said we should look for messengers or go to prophets to inquire of God. Here's what God said on this topic.


Here's what the Lord said when the Elders went to the prophet Ezekiel (messenger from the Father) to inquire of him concerning God...



When Adam is speaking to the Lord through the veil, the Lord asks him about what he learned. Everything he learned up to that point was learned in some other way than from the Lord directly through the spirit. So, nothing he learned is of God.

When Adam tells the Lord what he learned, the Lord doesn't confirm it as right or wrong. He just moves on. The only time that the Lord says, "THAT is right." is when Adam repeats what he learned from the Lord through the veil. It is the only thing that Adam got right because everything else he learned was not of God.
Speaking to the Lord through the veil means hearing his voice which is his spirit and not seeing him.




Also, we know that Adam was considered wicked through the entire endowment until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He was wicked because the Lord said that the difference between the wicked and the righteous is that the righteous hear and follow his voice (the spirit) and the wicked do not. Until Adam truly prayed and spoke to the Lord through the veil, he was wicked and doing everything wrong.




Adam had not heard the Lord's voice until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He should have done that in the first 5 minutes and avoided nearly the entire endowment. Then he would have been welcomed into the church of Christ and into his presence. Adam instead did what we all tend to do by following some strange convoluted path that they think is progress but isn't at all. Adam was wicked until he spoke to the Lord directly. It didn't matter who he followed, what he did or how much he thinks he progressed before that point, he was still not redeemed from the fall, not welcome into Christ's church, and not considered righteous.

When Adam discovers messengers from his Father, he sets up an idol and begins to follow them, just like the church Elders in Ezekiel 14 did. he tells you to follow them too, not to listen to and follow the voice of the Lord/the spirit. This is bad advice. It doesn't matter if the three apostles give good advice or bad advice, following them will not qualify you to be redeemed. Following them will not make you part of Christ's church or righteous. It is a distraction from the real and true spirituality and word of God. It is being blinded by the craftiness of men.

~Seeker

Interesting thoughts.
However, the reason Adam was looking for messengers from his Father is because earlier in the presentation the Father promised to send him some.
In fact, there is even dialogue between Jehovah and Elohim in which Jehovah reports that Adam is waiting for the "messengers YOU promised to send" (emphasis in the dialogue).
Adam was waiting for God to do what he said he would do.

And yet, he was still wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until Adam approached the veil and commuted with God for himself. Even though he made covenants given to him bu the messengers, acting forand on behalf of God following His instructions to them. All of Israel followed Moses who was a trie messenger from the Father and yet nothing they did as part of the law of Moses could save them including the rituals, animal sacrifices and Baptisms performed by the Aaronic priesthood they held, obedience to laws, etc. All the following of God's true messenger Mosses helped them qualify to be redeemed, made them spiritually members of Christ's church or even righteous. A person could keep all the laws and ordinances given by Moses who was a true messenger from the Father and still be wicked. Nothing Peter, James and John get Adam to covenant makes him righteous. He was wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until the veil when he talked to God for himself. Adam following Peter, James and John as they were instructed by the Lord is the same as Isreal following Moses. It didn't save Israel, it didn't save Adam and it doesn't save us.

Adam fell because he stopped hearing and following God's voice to him directly. He was no longer in God's presence. We are not redeemed until we can hear His voice again and are brought back into his presence.

~Seeker

In the temple, we make various covenants, like to keep the law of chastity. Guess what, the Law of Moses also taught the law of chastity, and it still didn't save them. You cannot enter in at the gate by the Law of Moses, even when it is administered by true messengers from the Father, even when it is administered by the priesthood, even when it administers the ordinances given by God.

D&C 22
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

~Seeker

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 9:07 pm ?
Unless I missed something after Adam says this the Apostles lead us the remainder of the way to the veil teaching the entire time.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:35 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:44 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:19 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm

Interesting thoughts.
However, the reason Adam was looking for messengers from his Father is because earlier in the presentation the Father promised to send him some.
In fact, there is even dialogue between Jehovah and Elohim in which Jehovah reports that Adam is waiting for the "messengers YOU promised to send" (emphasis in the dialogue).
Adam was waiting for God to do what he said he would do.

And yet, he was still wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until Adam approached the veil and commuted with God for himself. Even though he made covenants given to him bu the messengers, acting forand on behalf of God following His instructions to them. All of Israel followed Moses who was a trie messenger from the Father and yet nothing they did as part of the law of Moses could save them including the rituals, animal sacrifices and Baptisms performed by the Aaronic priesthood they held, obedience to laws, etc. All the following of God's true messenger Mosses helped them qualify to be redeemed, made them spiritually members of Christ's church or even righteous. A person could keep all the laws and ordinances given by Moses who was a true messenger from the Father and still be wicked. Nothing Peter, James and John get Adam to covenant makes him righteous. He was wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until the veil when he talked to God for himself. Adam following Peter, James and John as they were instructed by the Lord is the same as Isreal following Moses. It didn't save Israel, it didn't save Adam and it doesn't save us.

Adam fell because he stopped hearing and following God's voice to him directly. He was no longer in God's presence. We are not redeemed until we can hear His voice again and are brought back into his presence.

~Seeker

In the temple, we make various covenants, like to keep the law of chastity. Guess what, the Law of Moses also taught the law of chastity, and it still didn't save them. You cannot enter in at the gate by the Law of Moses, even when it is administered by true messengers from the Father, even when it is administered by the priesthood, even when it administers the ordinances given by God.

D&C 22
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

~Seeker

I don't think anyone is claiming the Law of Moses saves us, least of all the messengers. Think you've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:58 am

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 9:07 pm ?
Unless I missed something after Adam says this the Apostles lead us the remainder of the way to the veil teaching the entire time.

This is the correct answer.
After the video ends, the real life temple workers play the part of Peter, James and John and they instruct you on what commandments to keep, they give you the tokens and signs and so on.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 2:51 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:35 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:44 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:19 pm
And yet, he was still wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until Adam approached the veil and commuted with God for himself. Even though he made covenants given to him bu the messengers, acting forand on behalf of God following His instructions to them. All of Israel followed Moses who was a trie messenger from the Father and yet nothing they did as part of the law of Moses could save them including the rituals, animal sacrifices and Baptisms performed by the Aaronic priesthood they held, obedience to laws, etc. All the following of God's true messenger Mosses helped them qualify to be redeemed, made them spiritually members of Christ's church or even righteous. A person could keep all the laws and ordinances given by Moses who was a true messenger from the Father and still be wicked. Nothing Peter, James and John get Adam to covenant makes him righteous. He was wicked and not a member of Christ's church and not redeemed until the veil when he talked to God for himself. Adam following Peter, James and John as they were instructed by the Lord is the same as Isreal following Moses. It didn't save Israel, it didn't save Adam and it doesn't save us.

Adam fell because he stopped hearing and following God's voice to him directly. He was no longer in God's presence. We are not redeemed until we can hear His voice again and are brought back into his presence.

~Seeker

In the temple, we make various covenants, like to keep the law of chastity. Guess what, the Law of Moses also taught the law of chastity, and it still didn't save them. You cannot enter in at the gate by the Law of Moses, even when it is administered by true messengers from the Father, even when it is administered by the priesthood, even when it administers the ordinances given by God.

D&C 22
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

~Seeker

I don't think anyone is claiming the Law of Moses saves us, least of all the messengers. Think you've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

We are talking about the endowment and the covenants we make in the endowment, like to keep the law of Chastity as taught to us by the messengers, Peter, James and John. I am saying that this law of Chastity taught by the messengers from the Father, Peter, James and John has as must power to save us as the law of Moses taught by the messenger from the Father, Moses. ie. None.

Nothing that the messengers taught Adam or did for Adam in the Endowment had power to make him righteous, redeemed or ready to join Christ's church. Only when Adam talked with the Lord through the veil did he become righteous, redeemed and worthy of joining Christ's church. The covenants given in the endowment are exactly the same as the covenants given by Moses in that there is no power to save in them. Nothing Adam does in the endowment from the time that he fell to the end of the true order of prayer is worth duplicating or living because it doesn't make us closer to God. Adam finally gives up on following the messengers and goes to God directly saying that he couldn't get the information he needed from them and for this reason he was finally coming to God directly which he should have done in the very beginning. There is no reason that Adam couldn't have prayed with real intent from the beginning and jumped to the end. We all can jump to the end by praying with real intent right now. One of my missionary companions was converted while he was serving with me. He was converted because I told him that his father dying when he was 13 was God's fault and he needed to blame God and hash it out with God. He did and for the first time in his life he prayed sincerely and told God off. God responded and he learned for the first time that God existed, cared about him and loved him. He talked with God through the veil. He began to pray sincerely from that point on. within a week he Asked God how to make his calling and election sure. I heard the prayer and God's response to him. That night he made his calling and election sure and was visited by Christ while I slept in the same room with him. He literally went from not knowing God existed to making his calling and election sure and receiving the Second Comforter in less than a week. Now I see that there is no reason anyone can't do that. It is interesting to note that he was raised from birth in the church and spent his entire life "following" messengers from his Father, (the Prophet and church leaders). It wasn't until he went to God directly in "the true order of prayer" which means sincere prayer with real intent, that he made any spiritual progress. He had prayed using the words of his mouth, vainly repeating his prayers over his food and in church his entire life and God remained silent. God remained silent because his prayers were just like Adam's prayer in the endowment. Adam prayed with vain repetition, using the words from his mouth over an alter of rocks with grand gestures of dead works. God will never answer such a dead prayer. Why are we told to mimic it? It's obviously a perfect example of how to not pray, and God doesn't respond to it for obvious reasons. If you really want God to respond to your prayer, then pray exactly opposite of how Adam does and see what happens. Instead of hoping God will hear the words of your mouth, pray with your heart and ask Him to hear the thoughts and intents of your heart and soul. Realize that there are not magic hand gestures or movements you can do that will make God more likely to hear and respond to you. There is no alter of stones you can pray over to gain God's favor. The offering you must give is your broken heart and a contrite spirit and the alter is your soul within you.

You can't pray out of obedience or for the sake of praying and expect God to hear and respond. You have to pray with a sincere heart and about things that actually mean something to you. You have to pray "with all the sincerity of your heart" for God to hear and respond. We can do it at any moment. We can hear His voice through the veil before making oaths and covenants that mean nothing, or after. But until we hear His voice, we don't belong to His church, won't be redeemed and are considered wicked, even though we make the oaths and covenants. It doesn't matter if we cast out devils in his name or perform miracles in his name, if we haven't talked with Him personally and directly for ourselves, then He never knew us and we will not be blessed for all our works.

Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew us because we never talked to Him through the veil. The difference between the wicked who work iniquity and the righteous is that the righteous know and follow the voice of the Lord, the wicked do not. That's it.

It doesn't matter if you find true messengers and follow them and do everything they say, if you are not talking to the Lord yourself, then he never knew you and your efforts are all in vain.

~Seeker

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 7:13 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 2:51 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:35 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:44 pm
In the temple, we make various covenants, like to keep the law of chastity. Guess what, the Law of Moses also taught the law of chastity, and it still didn't save them. You cannot enter in at the gate by the Law of Moses, even when it is administered by true messengers from the Father, even when it is administered by the priesthood, even when it administers the ordinances given by God.



~Seeker

I don't think anyone is claiming the Law of Moses saves us, least of all the messengers. Think you've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

We are talking about the endowment and the covenants we make in the endowment, like to keep the law of Chastity as taught to us by the messengers, Peter, James and John. I am saying that this law of Chastity taught by the messengers from the Father, Peter, James and John has as must power to save us as the law of Moses taught by the messenger from the Father, Moses. ie. None.

Nothing that the messengers taught Adam or did for Adam in the Endowment had power to make him righteous, redeemed or ready to join Christ's church. Only when Adam talked with the Lord through the veil did he become righteous, redeemed and worthy of joining Christ's church. The covenants given in the endowment are exactly the same as the covenants given by Moses in that there is no power to save in them. Nothing Adam does in the endowment from the time that he fell to the end of the true order of prayer is worth duplicating or living because it doesn't make us closer to God. Adam finally gives up on following the messengers and goes to God directly saying that he couldn't get the information he needed from them and for this reason he was finally coming to God directly which he should have done in the very beginning. There is no reason that Adam couldn't have prayed with real intent from the beginning and jumped to the end. We all can jump to the end by praying with real intent right now. One of my missionary companions was converted while he was serving with me. He was converted because I told him that his father dying when he was 13 was God's fault and he needed to blame God and hash it out with God. He did and for the first time in his life he prayed sincerely and told God off. God responded and he learned for the first time that God existed, cared about him and loved him. He talked with God through the veil. He began to pray sincerely from that point on. within a week he Asked God how to make his calling and election sure. I heard the prayer and God's response to him. That night he made his calling and election sure and was visited by Christ while I slept in the same room with him. He literally went from not knowing God existed to making his calling and election sure and receiving the Second Comforter in less than a week. Now I see that there is no reason anyone can't do that. It is interesting to note that he was raised from birth in the church and spent his entire life "following" messengers from his Father, (the Prophet and church leaders). It wasn't until he went to God directly in "the true order of prayer" which means sincere prayer with real intent, that he made any spiritual progress. He had prayed using the words of his mouth, vainly repeating his prayers over his food and in church his entire life and God remained silent. God remained silent because his prayers were just like Adam's prayer in the endowment. Adam prayed with vain repetition, using the words from his mouth over an alter of rocks with grand gestures of dead works. God will never answer such a dead prayer. Why are we told to mimic it? It's obviously a perfect example of how to not pray, and God doesn't respond to it for obvious reasons. If you really want God to respond to your prayer, then pray exactly opposite of how Adam does and see what happens. Instead of hoping God will hear the words of your mouth, pray with your heart and ask Him to hear the thoughts and intents of your heart and soul. Realize that there are not magic hand gestures or movements you can do that will make God more likely to hear and respond to you. There is no alter of stones you can pray over to gain God's favor. The offering you must give is your broken heart and a contrite spirit and the alter is your soul within you.

You can't pray out of obedience or for the sake of praying and expect God to hear and respond. You have to pray with a sincere heart and about things that actually mean something to you. You have to pray "with all the sincerity of your heart" for God to hear and respond. We can do it at any moment. We can hear His voice through the veil before making oaths and covenants that mean nothing, or after. But until we hear His voice, we don't belong to His church, won't be redeemed and are considered wicked, even though we make the oaths and covenants. It doesn't matter if we cast out devils in his name or perform miracles in his name, if we haven't talked with Him personally and directly for ourselves, then He never knew us and we will not be blessed for all our works.

Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew us because we never talked to Him through the veil. The difference between the wicked who work iniquity and the righteous is that the righteous know and follow the voice of the Lord, the wicked do not. That's it.

It doesn't matter if you find true messengers and follow them and do everything they say, if you are not talking to the Lord yourself, then he never knew you and your efforts are all in vain.

~Seeker

It's an interesting angle, but I'm of another opinion.
While it is true Adam needed to go directly to God to get the info he needed, he was also required to demonstrate he had the information previously given to him by the messengers first. Indeed, unless he had that he would be unable to approach God successfully in this regard.
I don't think the messengers and God can be separated in terms of Adam's journey. They are both part of the same whole.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 7:13 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 2:51 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:35 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 7:44 pm
In the temple, we make various covenants, like to keep the law of chastity. Guess what, the Law of Moses also taught the law of chastity, and it still didn't save them. You cannot enter in at the gate by the Law of Moses, even when it is administered by true messengers from the Father, even when it is administered by the priesthood, even when it administers the ordinances given by God.



~Seeker

I don't think anyone is claiming the Law of Moses saves us, least of all the messengers. Think you've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

We are talking about the endowment and the covenants we make in the endowment, like to keep the law of Chastity as taught to us by the messengers, Peter, James and John. I am saying that this law of Chastity taught by the messengers from the Father, Peter, James and John has as must power to save us as the law of Moses taught by the messenger from the Father, Moses. ie. None.

Nothing that the messengers taught Adam or did for Adam in the Endowment had power to make him righteous, redeemed or ready to join Christ's church. Only when Adam talked with the Lord through the veil did he become righteous, redeemed and worthy of joining Christ's church. The covenants given in the endowment are exactly the same as the covenants given by Moses in that there is no power to save in them. Nothing Adam does in the endowment from the time that he fell to the end of the true order of prayer is worth duplicating or living because it doesn't make us closer to God. Adam finally gives up on following the messengers and goes to God directly saying that he couldn't get the information he needed from them and for this reason he was finally coming to God directly which he should have done in the very beginning. There is no reason that Adam couldn't have prayed with real intent from the beginning and jumped to the end. We all can jump to the end by praying with real intent right now. One of my missionary companions was converted while he was serving with me. He was converted because I told him that his father dying when he was 13 was God's fault and he needed to blame God and hash it out with God. He did and for the first time in his life he prayed sincerely and told God off. God responded and he learned for the first time that God existed, cared about him and loved him. He talked with God through the veil. He began to pray sincerely from that point on. within a week he Asked God how to make his calling and election sure. I heard the prayer and God's response to him. That night he made his calling and election sure and was visited by Christ while I slept in the same room with him. He literally went from not knowing God existed to making his calling and election sure and receiving the Second Comforter in less than a week. Now I see that there is no reason anyone can't do that. It is interesting to note that he was raised from birth in the church and spent his entire life "following" messengers from his Father, (the Prophet and church leaders). It wasn't until he went to God directly in "the true order of prayer" which means sincere prayer with real intent, that he made any spiritual progress. He had prayed using the words of his mouth, vainly repeating his prayers over his food and in church his entire life and God remained silent. God remained silent because his prayers were just like Adam's prayer in the endowment. Adam prayed with vain repetition, using the words from his mouth over an alter of rocks with grand gestures of dead works. God will never answer such a dead prayer. Why are we told to mimic it? It's obviously a perfect example of how to not pray, and God doesn't respond to it for obvious reasons. If you really want God to respond to your prayer, then pray exactly opposite of how Adam does and see what happens. Instead of hoping God will hear the words of your mouth, pray with your heart and ask Him to hear the thoughts and intents of your heart and soul. Realize that there are not magic hand gestures or movements you can do that will make God more likely to hear and respond to you. There is no alter of stones you can pray over to gain God's favor. The offering you must give is your broken heart and a contrite spirit and the alter is your soul within you.

You can't pray out of obedience or for the sake of praying and expect God to hear and respond. You have to pray with a sincere heart and about things that actually mean something to you. You have to pray "with all the sincerity of your heart" for God to hear and respond. We can do it at any moment. We can hear His voice through the veil before making oaths and covenants that mean nothing, or after. But until we hear His voice, we don't belong to His church, won't be redeemed and are considered wicked, even though we make the oaths and covenants. It doesn't matter if we cast out devils in his name or perform miracles in his name, if we haven't talked with Him personally and directly for ourselves, then He never knew us and we will not be blessed for all our works.

Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew us because we never talked to Him through the veil. The difference between the wicked who work iniquity and the righteous is that the righteous know and follow the voice of the Lord, the wicked do not. That's it.

It doesn't matter if you find true messengers and follow them and do everything they say, if you are not talking to the Lord yourself, then he never knew you and your efforts are all in vain.

~Seeker

It's an interesting angle, but I'm of another opinion.
While it is true Adam needed to go directly to God to get the info he needed, he was also required to demonstrate he had the information previously given to him by the messengers first. Indeed, unless he had that he would be unable to approach God successfully in this regard.
I don't think the messengers and God can be separated in terms of Adam's journey. They are both part of the same whole.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 3:09 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 7:13 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 2:51 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:35 am

I don't think anyone is claiming the Law of Moses saves us, least of all the messengers. Think you've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

We are talking about the endowment and the covenants we make in the endowment, like to keep the law of Chastity as taught to us by the messengers, Peter, James and John. I am saying that this law of Chastity taught by the messengers from the Father, Peter, James and John has as must power to save us as the law of Moses taught by the messenger from the Father, Moses. ie. None.

Nothing that the messengers taught Adam or did for Adam in the Endowment had power to make him righteous, redeemed or ready to join Christ's church. Only when Adam talked with the Lord through the veil did he become righteous, redeemed and worthy of joining Christ's church. The covenants given in the endowment are exactly the same as the covenants given by Moses in that there is no power to save in them. Nothing Adam does in the endowment from the time that he fell to the end of the true order of prayer is worth duplicating or living because it doesn't make us closer to God. Adam finally gives up on following the messengers and goes to God directly saying that he couldn't get the information he needed from them and for this reason he was finally coming to God directly which he should have done in the very beginning. There is no reason that Adam couldn't have prayed with real intent from the beginning and jumped to the end. We all can jump to the end by praying with real intent right now. One of my missionary companions was converted while he was serving with me. He was converted because I told him that his father dying when he was 13 was God's fault and he needed to blame God and hash it out with God. He did and for the first time in his life he prayed sincerely and told God off. God responded and he learned for the first time that God existed, cared about him and loved him. He talked with God through the veil. He began to pray sincerely from that point on. within a week he Asked God how to make his calling and election sure. I heard the prayer and God's response to him. That night he made his calling and election sure and was visited by Christ while I slept in the same room with him. He literally went from not knowing God existed to making his calling and election sure and receiving the Second Comforter in less than a week. Now I see that there is no reason anyone can't do that. It is interesting to note that he was raised from birth in the church and spent his entire life "following" messengers from his Father, (the Prophet and church leaders). It wasn't until he went to God directly in "the true order of prayer" which means sincere prayer with real intent, that he made any spiritual progress. He had prayed using the words of his mouth, vainly repeating his prayers over his food and in church his entire life and God remained silent. God remained silent because his prayers were just like Adam's prayer in the endowment. Adam prayed with vain repetition, using the words from his mouth over an alter of rocks with grand gestures of dead works. God will never answer such a dead prayer. Why are we told to mimic it? It's obviously a perfect example of how to not pray, and God doesn't respond to it for obvious reasons. If you really want God to respond to your prayer, then pray exactly opposite of how Adam does and see what happens. Instead of hoping God will hear the words of your mouth, pray with your heart and ask Him to hear the thoughts and intents of your heart and soul. Realize that there are not magic hand gestures or movements you can do that will make God more likely to hear and respond to you. There is no alter of stones you can pray over to gain God's favor. The offering you must give is your broken heart and a contrite spirit and the alter is your soul within you.

You can't pray out of obedience or for the sake of praying and expect God to hear and respond. You have to pray with a sincere heart and about things that actually mean something to you. You have to pray "with all the sincerity of your heart" for God to hear and respond. We can do it at any moment. We can hear His voice through the veil before making oaths and covenants that mean nothing, or after. But until we hear His voice, we don't belong to His church, won't be redeemed and are considered wicked, even though we make the oaths and covenants. It doesn't matter if we cast out devils in his name or perform miracles in his name, if we haven't talked with Him personally and directly for ourselves, then He never knew us and we will not be blessed for all our works.

Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew us because we never talked to Him through the veil. The difference between the wicked who work iniquity and the righteous is that the righteous know and follow the voice of the Lord, the wicked do not. That's it.

It doesn't matter if you find true messengers and follow them and do everything they say, if you are not talking to the Lord yourself, then he never knew you and your efforts are all in vain.

~Seeker

It's an interesting angle, but I'm of another opinion.
While it is true Adam needed to go directly to God to get the info he needed, he was also required to demonstrate he had the information previously given to him by the messengers first. Indeed, unless he had that he would be unable to approach God successfully in this regard.
I don't think the messengers and God can be separated in terms of Adam's journey. They are both part of the same whole.

The only thing the messengers need to teach is the fulness of the Gospel. The signs and tokens and Covenants given in the endowment are not part of the fulness of the Gospel.

~Seeker

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 8:05 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 7:13 am

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 2:51 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 1:35 am

I don't think anyone is claiming the Law of Moses saves us, least of all the messengers. Think you've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

We are talking about the endowment and the covenants we make in the endowment, like to keep the law of Chastity as taught to us by the messengers, Peter, James and John. I am saying that this law of Chastity taught by the messengers from the Father, Peter, James and John has as must power to save us as the law of Moses taught by the messenger from the Father, Moses. ie. None.

Nothing that the messengers taught Adam or did for Adam in the Endowment had power to make him righteous, redeemed or ready to join Christ's church. Only when Adam talked with the Lord through the veil did he become righteous, redeemed and worthy of joining Christ's church. The covenants given in the endowment are exactly the same as the covenants given by Moses in that there is no power to save in them. Nothing Adam does in the endowment from the time that he fell to the end of the true order of prayer is worth duplicating or living because it doesn't make us closer to God. Adam finally gives up on following the messengers and goes to God directly saying that he couldn't get the information he needed from them and for this reason he was finally coming to God directly which he should have done in the very beginning. There is no reason that Adam couldn't have prayed with real intent from the beginning and jumped to the end. We all can jump to the end by praying with real intent right now. One of my missionary companions was converted while he was serving with me. He was converted because I told him that his father dying when he was 13 was God's fault and he needed to blame God and hash it out with God. He did and for the first time in his life he prayed sincerely and told God off. God responded and he learned for the first time that God existed, cared about him and loved him. He talked with God through the veil. He began to pray sincerely from that point on. within a week he Asked God how to make his calling and election sure. I heard the prayer and God's response to him. That night he made his calling and election sure and was visited by Christ while I slept in the same room with him. He literally went from not knowing God existed to making his calling and election sure and receiving the Second Comforter in less than a week. Now I see that there is no reason anyone can't do that. It is interesting to note that he was raised from birth in the church and spent his entire life "following" messengers from his Father, (the Prophet and church leaders). It wasn't until he went to God directly in "the true order of prayer" which means sincere prayer with real intent, that he made any spiritual progress. He had prayed using the words of his mouth, vainly repeating his prayers over his food and in church his entire life and God remained silent. God remained silent because his prayers were just like Adam's prayer in the endowment. Adam prayed with vain repetition, using the words from his mouth over an alter of rocks with grand gestures of dead works. God will never answer such a dead prayer. Why are we told to mimic it? It's obviously a perfect example of how to not pray, and God doesn't respond to it for obvious reasons. If you really want God to respond to your prayer, then pray exactly opposite of how Adam does and see what happens. Instead of hoping God will hear the words of your mouth, pray with your heart and ask Him to hear the thoughts and intents of your heart and soul. Realize that there are not magic hand gestures or movements you can do that will make God more likely to hear and respond to you. There is no alter of stones you can pray over to gain God's favor. The offering you must give is your broken heart and a contrite spirit and the alter is your soul within you.

You can't pray out of obedience or for the sake of praying and expect God to hear and respond. You have to pray with a sincere heart and about things that actually mean something to you. You have to pray "with all the sincerity of your heart" for God to hear and respond. We can do it at any moment. We can hear His voice through the veil before making oaths and covenants that mean nothing, or after. But until we hear His voice, we don't belong to His church, won't be redeemed and are considered wicked, even though we make the oaths and covenants. It doesn't matter if we cast out devils in his name or perform miracles in his name, if we haven't talked with Him personally and directly for ourselves, then He never knew us and we will not be blessed for all our works.

Matt. 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew us because we never talked to Him through the veil. The difference between the wicked who work iniquity and the righteous is that the righteous know and follow the voice of the Lord, the wicked do not. That's it.

It doesn't matter if you find true messengers and follow them and do everything they say, if you are not talking to the Lord yourself, then he never knew you and your efforts are all in vain.

~Seeker

It's an interesting angle, but I'm of another opinion.
While it is true Adam needed to go directly to God to get the info he needed, he was also required to demonstrate he had the information previously given to him by the messengers first. Indeed, unless he had that he would be unable to approach God successfully in this regard.
I don't think the messengers and God can be separated in terms of Adam's journey. They are both part of the same whole.

This exactly. It's not either/or. A false dichotomy.
We are required to directly commune with the Father. We are required to develop our relationship with the Son. And we are required to receive the ordinances established by the Father and the Son through their authorized mortal legal administrators.
Like it or not we need other people.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 1:47 pm

itsmerich wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 8:45 pm Hey all,

In the temple (this isn't secret, but if not allowed please remove) Adam says for us to listen to the 3 apostles and heed to their word.
But they dont do anything/say anything after this is said. I was trying to figure out what this part means.

He clearly says listen to these THREE - surely he can't be referencing their New testament contributions

Any ideas?

thanks all!

Everything Adam does in the endowment until he talks to Christ through the veil is wrong. This is very clear when he prays over the alter using vain repetition, asking God to hear the words of his mouth and not the true intents of his heart, etc. He performed the prayer in exactly the wrong way to pray. God doesn't hear him because his pray sucks. Satan does hear him.

To your question, Adam is looking for messengers from his Father because he isn't able to talk to his Father himself personally. At any time, he could pray correctly and talk with God through the veil. But, he doesn't. He looks for messengers from his Father, like going to a prophet to inquire of the prophet concerning God rather than going to God directly. God never said we should look for messengers or go to prophets to inquire of God. Here's what God said on this topic.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Here's what the Lord said when the Elders went to the prophet Ezekiel (messenger from the Father) to inquire of him concerning God...

Ezekiel 14
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart (the prophet/messenger who speaks for God), and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols (Prophets who speak for God are the idols of God) in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols (prophet/messengers from the Father).
6 ¶ Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols (Prophet/Messengers from the Father); and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart (Look for messengers from the Father rather than going to God directly), and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

When Adam is speaking to the Lord through the veil, the Lord asks him about what he learned. Everything he learned up to that point was learned in some other way than from the Lord directly through the spirit. So, nothing he learned is of God.

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

When Adam tells the Lord what he learned, the Lord doesn't confirm it as right or wrong. He just moves on. The only time that the Lord says, "THAT is right." is when Adam repeats what he learned from the Lord through the veil. It is the only thing that Adam got right because everything else he learned was not of God.
Speaking to the Lord through the veil means hearing his voice which is his spirit and not seeing him.

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Also, we know that Adam was considered wicked through the entire endowment until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He was wicked because the Lord said that the difference between the wicked and the righteous is that the righteous hear and follow his voice (the spirit) and the wicked do not. Until Adam truly prayed and spoke to the Lord through the veil, he was wicked and doing everything wrong.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

Adam had not heard the Lord's voice until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He should have done that in the first 5 minutes and avoided nearly the entire endowment. Then he would have been welcomed into the church of Christ and into his presence. Adam instead did what we all tend to do by following some strange convoluted path that they think is progress but isn't at all. Adam was wicked until he spoke to the Lord directly. It didn't matter who he followed, what he did or how much he thinks he progressed before that point, he was still not redeemed from the fall, not welcome into Christ's church, and not considered righteous.

When Adam discovers messengers from his Father, he sets up an idol and begins to follow them, just like the church Elders in Ezekiel 14 did. he tells you to follow them too, not to listen to and follow the voice of the Lord/the spirit. This is bad advice. It doesn't matter if the three apostles give good advice or bad advice, following them will not qualify you to be redeemed. Following them will not make you part of Christ's church or righteous. It is a distraction from the real and true spirituality and word of God. It is being blinded by the craftiness of men.

~Seeker

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 3:13 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 3:09 pm The only thing the messengers need to teach is the fulness of the Gospel. The signs and tokens and Covenants given in the endowment are not part of the fulness of the Gospel.

~Seeker

What are they then?

JSH 1
34 He, (Moroni), said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

D&C 20
8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

D&C 18
3 And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written (in the Book of Mormon);
4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

D&C 135
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

D&C 35
12 And there are none that doeth good except those who are ready to receive the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth unto this generation.
...
17 And I have sent forth the fulness of my gospel by the hand of my servant Joseph; and in weakness have I blessed him;

3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 19th, 2022, 2:24 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 3:13 pm

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 3:09 pm The only thing the messengers need to teach is the fulness of the Gospel. The signs and tokens and Covenants given in the endowment are not part of the fulness of the Gospel.

~Seeker

What are they then?

I am interpreting your question to say, "If they are not part of the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then what are the signs, tokens and covenants given in the endowment." This indicates that you may not know what the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ actually is.

The fulness of the gospel was given in its completeness and published for the world in March of 1830. The first version of the endowment was given in 1842. We had the fulness of the gospel 12 years before the endowment was given with its signs and tokens.

The fulness of the Gospel is contained in the Book of Mormon and taught by Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon.

JSH 1
34 He, (Moroni), said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

D&C 20
8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

D&C 18
3 And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written (in the Book of Mormon);
4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

D&C 135
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

December 7, 1830 - The Lord said in D&C 35 that he has already sent forth the fulness of the Gospel to this generation through Joseph Smith.

D&C 35
12 And there are none that doeth good except those who are ready to receive the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth unto this generation.
...
17 And I have sent forth the fulness of my gospel by the hand of my servant Joseph; and in weakness have I blessed him;

The fulness of Christ's gospel was required before the church could be organized because the requirements to be Christ's church is that it be called in his name and it teach his gospel. If it teaches an incomplete or incorrect version of the Gospel, then it isn't his church, even if it is called in his name.

3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

The fulness of Christ's gospel was given in 1830 prior to the church being organized as a requirement of the church being organized. The church could not have been organized around an incomplete gospel that didn't include all of Christ's doctrines or around an incorrect gospel that included doctrine that isn't Christ's doctrine. To teach and establish as a gospel comprised of more or less than Christ's actual doctrines would make it a false church. Hence, the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored and documented in its completeness prior to the church being organized around it in 1830.

This was 3 years before the Word of Wisdom given in 1833 - The Word of Wisdom is not part of the fulness of the Gospel
This was 8 years before receiving the Law of Tithing given in July 8, 1838 - Tithing is not part of the Fulness of the Gospel
This was 12 years before the endowment with its signs and tokens given in 1842 - The endowment, the signs and tokens are not part of the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Any new revelation given to the church after 1830 is not and cannot be part of the Fulness of the Gospel because the fulness of the Gospel was revealed in its entirety in 1830 and is contained in the Book of Mormon. And, in the Book of Mormon the Fulness of the Gospel is taught and administered by Jesus Christ, (3 Nephi 11-27). In the Book of Mormon, Jesus didn't teach tithing, the word of wisdom or the endowment signs and tokens or even covenants like the law of chastity, and these revelations were not known to the church when the Lord said that he had already given the Fulness of his gospel to the church.

After teaching all the doctrines that make up the fulness of his gospel, Jesus Christ said,

3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

This was the first significant thing Jesus taught when he visited the people in the Book of Mormon. It didn't include tithing, signs, tokens, WoW, etc.

If anyone teaches that Tithing is a "doctrine of Christ" or part of "his gospel", then their teachings come of evil and open the gates of hell to receive people. This doesn't mean that you can't teach tithing as a righteous principle or practice, it just isn't a doctrine of Christ or part of the fulness of his gospel. If you teach it as part of his gospel, then you are teaching an incorrect version of the gospel that opens the gates of hell and therefore cannot be his church.

If someone is teaching the word of wisdom is a doctrine of Christ and part of the fulness of his gospel, they are teaching false doctrine that opens the gates of hell and cannot be his church.

If someone is teaching the endowment signs and tokens and claiming them to be the doctrines of Christ or part of his gospel, then they also are opening the gates of hell and because they are administering an incorrect gospel, they cannot be part of his church.

There are only a hand full of doctrines accepted by the Father, son and Holy Ghost as "doctrine" and those doctrines make up the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are all contained in 3 Nephi 11 as taught by Jesus Christ after which he said "establishing more or less than this as my doctrine comes of evil and opens the gate of hell". They are also taught in 2 Nephi 31 after which Nephi says, "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only... doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".
It is taught again in 2 Nephi 32 after which Nephi says, "Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh." If Christ has not manifest himself to you in the flesh, (like he hasn't to 98% of the church), then the only doctrine you're given is the handful of doctrines which make up the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which his church is built upon. (If you make your calling and election sure and receive the second comforter and become a member of the Church of the Firstborn, then we might have a different discussion about how its doctrine differs from the doctrine of Christ's church. Until that time, the messengers of God only need to teach the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the Book of Mormon which is everything required for a person to get their Calling and Election sure and receive the Second Comforter.

D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

So, what are the doctrines of Christ that make up the fulness of the gospel? And what are the signs and tokens given in the endowment if they are not part of the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

~Seeker

D&C 84
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received (the Book of Mormon and the value it provides) —
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 1:47 pm Everything Adam does in the endowment until he talks to Christ through the veil is wrong. This is very clear when he prays over the alter using vain repetition, asking God to hear the words of his mouth and not the true intents of his heart, etc. He performed the prayer in exactly the wrong way to pray. God doesn't hear him because his pray sucks. Satan does hear him.

To your question, Adam is looking for messengers from his Father because he isn't able to talk to his Father himself personally. At any time, he could pray correctly and talk with God through the veil. But, he doesn't. He looks for messengers from his Father, like going to a prophet to inquire of the prophet concerning God rather than going to God directly. God never said we should look for messengers or go to prophets to inquire of God. Here's what God said on this topic.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Here's what the Lord said when the Elders went to the prophet Ezekiel (messenger from the Father) to inquire of him concerning God...

Ezekiel 14
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart (the prophet/messenger who speaks for God), and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols (Prophets who speak for God are the idols of God) in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols (prophet/messengers from the Father).
6 ¶ Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols (Prophet/Messengers from the Father); and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart (Look for messengers from the Father rather than going to God directly), and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

When Adam is speaking to the Lord through the veil, the Lord asks him about what he learned. Everything he learned up to that point was learned in some other way than from the Lord directly through the spirit. So, nothing he learned is of God.

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

When Adam tells the Lord what he learned, the Lord doesn't confirm it as right or wrong. He just moves on. The only time that the Lord says, "THAT is right." is when Adam repeats what he learned from the Lord through the veil. It is the only thing that Adam got right because everything else he learned was not of God.
Speaking to the Lord through the veil means hearing his voice which is his spirit and not seeing him.

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Also, we know that Adam was considered wicked through the entire endowment until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He was wicked because the Lord said that the difference between the wicked and the righteous is that the righteous hear and follow his voice (the spirit) and the wicked do not. Until Adam truly prayed and spoke to the Lord through the veil, he was wicked and doing everything wrong.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

Adam had not heard the Lord's voice until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He should have done that in the first 5 minutes and avoided nearly the entire endowment. Then he would have been welcomed into the church of Christ and into his presence. Adam instead did what we all tend to do by following some strange convoluted path that they think is progress but isn't at all. Adam was wicked until he spoke to the Lord directly. It didn't matter who he followed, what he did or how much he thinks he progressed before that point, he was still not redeemed from the fall, not welcome into Christ's church, and not considered righteous.

When Adam discovers messengers from his Father, he sets up an idol and begins to follow them, just like the church Elders in Ezekiel 14 did. he tells you to follow them too, not to listen to and follow the voice of the Lord/the spirit. This is bad advice. It doesn't matter if the three apostles give good advice or bad advice, following them will not qualify you to be redeemed. Following them will not make you part of Christ's church or righteous. It is a distraction from the real and true spirituality and word of God. It is being blinded by the craftiness of men.

~Seeker

Seeker144k wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 1:47 pm Adam had not heard the Lord's voice until he spoke to the Lord through the veil. He should have done that in the first 5 minutes and avoided nearly the entire endowment. Then he would have been welcomed into the church of Christ and into his presence. Adam instead did what we all tend to do by following some strange convoluted path that they think is progress but isn't at all. Adam was wicked until he spoke to the Lord directly. It didn't matter who he followed, what he did or how much he thinks he progressed before that point, he was still not redeemed from the fall, not welcome into Christ's church, and not considered righteous.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm Interesting thoughts.
However, the reason Adam was looking for messengers from his Father is because earlier in the presentation the Father promised to send him some.
In fact, there is even dialogue between Jehovah and Elohim in which Jehovah reports that Adam is waiting for the "messengers YOU promised to send" (emphasis in the dialogue).
Adam was waiting for God to do what he said he would do.

RosyPosy wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 3:36 pm The temple never felt right to me. Every time I entered the temple it seemed as though the spirit was waiting outside the doors and refused to enter. The whole endowment ceremony just seemed like a huge disconnect from God. I prayed multiple times in the celestial room and it did nothing. Ward members and family encouraged my temple attendance and I felt like my arm was being twisted. Covid shut downs came and I haven't attended since. I find myself much happier and better state of mind for not going.

Luke wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 4:25 pm

RosyPosy wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 3:36 pm The temple never felt right to me. Every time I entered the temple it seemed as though the spirit was waiting outside the doors and refused to enter. The whole endowment ceremony just seemed like a huge disconnect from God. I prayed multiple times in the celestial room and it did nothing. Ward members and family encouraged my temple attendance and I felt like my arm was being twisted. Covid shut downs came and I haven't attended since. I find myself much happier and better state of mind for not going.

Because the Church has changed the endowment so much from what Joseph Smith established it hardly resembles what the intended version was.

Luke wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 4:25 pm Because the Church has changed the endowment so much from what Joseph Smith established it hardly resembles what the intended version was.

RosyPosy wrote: ↑December 21st, 2022, 4:51 pm My instincts tell me his is the case.