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The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm
by Seeker144k
My nephew was raised in the church from birth and is now 19yrs old. I was shocked when he decided not to go on a mission. My wife and I asked him about it and he told us his story. My concern is that his story is the same story that many young members are experiencing and many will experience. Here are a few of the highlights.

He didn't have any significant independent spiritual experiences growing up. He felt that much of the church effort toward spirituality was emotional manipulation, (like Hallmark Movies designed to get you to feel emotions and not true spiritual experiences).

He was repeatedly taught that it is all true or all false with logic like, If the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph was a prophet and the church is true, etc. (This is an attempt at building a foundation on a false rock, without realizing that they are doing so.)

He had never been taught about blacks and the priesthood or polygamy. He had heard the word polygamy, but didn't really know what it was or that the church practiced it.

When he was 16, he came across the church essays on the LDS.org website. He was shocked by the blacks and the priesthood and polygamy, but understood that they lived in different times and accepted what the church said in the essays. (What the church says in the essay on Polygamy is flat false and does not explain that polygamy is expected to be started up again in the future and was not stopped because we no longer believe in it, but because of government pressure. As a church, we still believe in polygamy and intend to live it.)

More especially, when he read the essay about the Book of Abraham he learned that Joseph Smith couldn't translate anything to save his life and that the church knows this. (Examples include Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates, and his mothers journals.)

As he read the essays, he began to feel lied to. He realized that the Book of Abraham was just a common Egyptian religious funeral document and the mummy had nothing to do with Abraham and the text didn't even mention Abraham. using the logic that he was taught as a priest and in seminary, it's all true or nothing is true, he concluded that if the Book of Abraham wasn't what Joseph claimed and wasn't translated the way he was taught, then Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet and the church isn't true. But, it didn't stop there. He concluded that the logic was correct in stating that nothing was true and that means Jesus Christ/Christianity is a false religion and God doesn't exist. He became atheist.

What happened here is that he built his house on a sandy foundation and when the wind blew and the floods came, his foundation was pulled out from under his and everything he built his life on came crashing down. This is exactly what we are told will happen to those who are not built on the true rock or sure foundation.
3 Nephi 14
24 Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it.
There is currently a "mass exodus" from the church because the church currently does not teach its members to build on the rock or sure foundation from which we cannot fall. They teach us to build on false rocks by saying things like, "Follow the prophet, he can never lead you astray". The prophet is not the rock and he can and has led us astray, (even if you don't realize it, it has happened). They say, build on the Book of Mormon, it is the rock and your testimony needs to be on the Book of Mormon because if it is true then Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church is true. The Book of Mormon is not the rock on which we must build. Neither is Joseph Smith. In fact, the church itself is not the rock on which we must build. The manuals and lessons are not the rock and even the scriptures themselves are not the rock. If you build on any of these foundations, then you will fall. Not might fall as a remote possibility. You will fall with absolute certainty because your built on a sandy foundation that is easily blown and washed away.

There is only one rock on which if we build, we cannot fall. We are promised that if we build on the correct rock, we "shall not fall" because we "cannot fall".
D&C 50
44 Wherefore, I am in your midst, and I am the good shepherd, and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall.
Hel. 5
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
I see that my nephew is not alone. The church is not openly talking about and bringing up the topics that are not faith promoting, (Elder Oaks has specifically instructed the church education system not to do so). I don't believe they can without correcting the lies they have been teaching for years like, "the prophet can't lead you astray". So, they are in a pickle and blaming the members who are leaving for not being righteous or having enough faith, etc. It seems to me that the harder they fight against this exodus, the more they cause it because they double down on applying false principles like telling people to rely even harder on obedience to their leaders as the solution. (This is a very abusive relationship with its own members.)

Our youth is bright, intelligent, honest and brave. They will face the scary uncomfortable truths that you don't want to face and they will accept them when you won't. They see right through lies and have no loyalty to people, organizations and systems that are deceptive in the least degree. We live in a time of ever increasing information. They will not be able to grow up without knowing about all the things you want to shelter them from. If you want them to survive spiritually, you have to choose how they will be exposed to this uncomfortable information. It will happen on your terms of on the world's terms. And, if they are founded on anything except the true rock, they will fall.

If you want to prepare your children to stand against the coming storms, you must figure out what the rock is and build them on the rock. Then you can destroy all the false perceptions they have built on and they will stand. Not only will they stand the storms, but they will receive the truth with gladness and joy. They will see and accept the errors and issues created by the prophets and the church with gladness and not fear.
2 Nephi 28
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.
If you fear the truth, it is because you are built on a sandy/weak foundation. Those built on the rock receive the truth with gladness and fear not. Even when the church or its prophets teach blasphemies that open the gates of hell to receive their people. (See Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.)

~Seeker

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 14th, 2022, 1:31 pm
by Luke
Seeker144k wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.
McConkie was wrong. Brigham was right.

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 14th, 2022, 1:33 pm
by 4Joshua8
Excellent post, thank you.

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 14th, 2022, 1:50 pm
by endlessQuestions
Seeker144k wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm My nephew was raised in the church from birth and is now 19yrs old. I was shocked when he decided not to go on a mission. My wife and I asked him about it and he told us his story. My concern is that his story is the same story that many young members are experiencing and many will experience. Here are a few of the highlights.

He didn't have any significant independent spiritual experiences growing up. He felt that much of the church effort toward spirituality was emotional manipulation, (like Hallmark Movies designed to get you to feel emotions and not true spiritual experiences).

He was repeatedly taught that it is all true or all false with logic like, If the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph was a prophet and the church is true, etc. (This is an attempt at building a foundation on a false rock, without realizing that they are doing so.)

He had never been taught about blacks and the priesthood or polygamy. He had heard the word polygamy, but didn't really know what it was or that the church practiced it.

When he was 16, he came across the church essays on the LDS.org website. He was shocked by the blacks and the priesthood and polygamy, but understood that they lived in different times and accepted what the church said in the essays. (What the church says in the essay on Polygamy is flat false and does not explain that polygamy is expected to be started up again in the future and was not stopped because we no longer believe in it, but because of government pressure. As a church, we still believe in polygamy and intend to live it.)

More especially, when he read the essay about the Book of Abraham he learned that Joseph Smith couldn't translate anything to save his life and that the church knows this. (Examples include Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates, and his mothers journals.)

As he read the essays, he began to feel lied to. He realized that the Book of Abraham was just a common Egyptian religious funeral document and the mummy had nothing to do with Abraham and the text didn't even mention Abraham. using the logic that he was taught as a priest and in seminary, it's all true or nothing is true, he concluded that if the Book of Abraham wasn't what Joseph claimed and wasn't translated the way he was taught, then Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet and the church isn't true. But, it didn't stop there. He concluded that the logic was correct in stating that nothing was true and that means Jesus Christ/Christianity is a false religion and God doesn't exist. He became atheist.

What happened here is that he built his house on a sandy foundation and when the wind blew and the floods came, his foundation was pulled out from under his and everything he built his life on came crashing down. This is exactly what we are told will happen to those who are not built on the true rock or sure foundation.
3 Nephi 14
24 Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it.
There is currently a "mass exodus" from the church because the church currently does not teach its members to build on the rock or sure foundation from which we cannot fall. They teach us to build on false rocks by saying things like, "Follow the prophet, he can never lead you astray". The prophet is not the rock and he can and has led us astray, (even if you don't realize it, it has happened). They say, build on the Book of Mormon, it is the rock and your testimony needs to be on the Book of Mormon because if it is true then Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church is true. The Book of Mormon is not the rock on which we must build. Neither is Joseph Smith. In fact, the church itself is not the rock on which we must build. The manuals and lessons are not the rock and even the scriptures themselves are not the rock. If you build on any of these foundations, then you will fall. Not might fall as a remote possibility. You will fall with absolute certainty because your built on a sandy foundation that is easily blown and washed away.

There is only one rock on which if we build, we cannot fall. We are promised that if we build on the correct rock, we "shall not fall" because we "cannot fall".
D&C 50
44 Wherefore, I am in your midst, and I am the good shepherd, and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall.
Hel. 5
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
I see that my nephew is not alone. The church is not openly talking about and bringing up the topics that are not faith promoting, (Elder Oaks has specifically instructed the church education system not to do so). I don't believe they can without correcting the lies they have been teaching for years like, "the prophet can't lead you astray". So, they are in a pickle and blaming the members who are leaving for not being righteous or having enough faith, etc. It seems to me that the harder they fight against this exodus, the more they cause it because they double down on applying false principles like telling people to rely even harder on obedience to their leaders as the solution. (This is a very abusive relationship with its own members.)

Our youth is bright, intelligent, honest and brave. They will face the scary uncomfortable truths that you don't want to face and they will accept them when you won't. They see right through lies and have no loyalty to people, organizations and systems that are deceptive in the least degree. We live in a time of ever increasing information. They will not be able to grow up without knowing about all the things you want to shelter them from. If you want them to survive spiritually, you have to choose how they will be exposed to this uncomfortable information. It will happen on your terms of on the world's terms. And, if they are founded on anything except the true rock, they will fall.

If you want to prepare your children to stand against the coming storms, you must figure out what the rock is and build them on the rock. Then you can destroy all the false perceptions they have built on and they will stand. Not only will they stand the storms, but they will receive the truth with gladness and joy. They will see and accept the errors and issues created by the prophets and the church with gladness and not fear.
2 Nephi 28
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.
If you fear the truth, it is because you are built on a sandy/weak foundation. Those built on the rock receive the truth with gladness and fear not. Even when the church or its prophets teach blasphemies that open the gates of hell to receive their people. (See Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.)

~Seeker
This is basically the priesthood lesson I gave on Sunday.

Very well said, and profoundly true.

It is interesting to me that there seems to be a visible sifting going on. One one hand, there are those who see that they must be riveted to the Lord, and are repenting for worshiping the idols they were previously worshiping. On the other hand are those who refuse to let go of their idols, of which you spoke so eloquently.

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 15th, 2022, 10:42 am
by Seeker144k
Luke wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:31 pm
Seeker144k wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.
McConkie was wrong. Brigham was right.
On which points?

~Seeker

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 15th, 2022, 11:03 am
by Luke
Seeker144k wrote: December 15th, 2022, 10:42 am
Luke wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:31 pm
Seeker144k wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.
McConkie was wrong. Brigham was right.
On which points?

~Seeker
Adam-God Doctrine. The Doctrine that God is still progressing. Both are true.

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 15th, 2022, 5:38 pm
by Thinker
Maybe all our foundations are imperfect & thus meant to fall.

After all, aren’t we supposed to “wrestle God” (wrestle our old mistaken foundational ideas of God)?

I used to think Christ was bottom of the line… core of the layers of onion, but even my IDEAS of that based on Eusebius/Christian origins falls upon close inspection.

The only rock is God. No other gods.

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 15th, 2022, 11:25 pm
by Letfreedumbring
I am sorry that was a lot of text. Does this mean we can no longer stand idly by golden statues of Joseph?

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 16th, 2022, 7:17 am
by Generic User
Luke wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:31 pm
Seeker144k wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.
McConkie was wrong. Brigham was right.
As is usually the case, I have found. The older I get, the more I realize just how frequently, and seriously Elder McConkie was mistaken.

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 16th, 2022, 1:11 pm
by Seeker144k
Generic User wrote: December 16th, 2022, 7:17 am
Luke wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:31 pm
Seeker144k wrote: December 14th, 2022, 1:28 pm Elder Bruce R. McConkie's comments to Professor England regarding President Brigham Young's teachings.
McConkie was wrong. Brigham was right.
As is usually the case, I have found. The older I get, the more I realize just how frequently, and seriously Elder McConkie was mistaken.
Same.
Also, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc.

~Seeker

Re: The Rock from which you CANNOT fall

Posted: December 16th, 2022, 4:49 pm
by ransomme
yeah I don't think that the Church and its leadership trust in Lord enough. They don't trust that we can build upon the Rock. They aren't bringing forth fruits so they lean on tricks.