LDS Freedom Forum

This topic of Multiple Mortal Probations is a worthy topic of discussion. Where are we in regard to this topic?

Is it important?
If yes, what convinced you?
If no, why?
And what questions do people have about MMP?

Although I believe that we do go through multiple mortalities, it creates some interesting dilemmas when you combine it with family sealings. If you have multiple mortalities, how many families can you be sealed to. Or do the same people end up getting married in each mortality?

Actually, the idea of sealings brings up some additional questions. If a couple are sealed together with all their children and each of the children are sealed together with their spouse and all their children, etc. etc. Then you don't have a single-family sealing. You have whole generations or even a whole creation all sealed together. Just as families see their children move away from home, I wonder if the only sealing that would matter would be the one with your spouse.

I voted yes (the first option seemed to convey more accurately what I believe) but I think people have all sorts of ideas about what MMP actually means.

I believe in numerous stages of progression, some of which involve taking on a new body to the one you had previously. For instance, Brigham taught that Jesus had a body of flesh and bones before He came to earth and was born into a new body. I think there’s quite a number of reasons to believe that we will one day stand in the same position as Jesus (if faithful).

Luke wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 6:43 pm Brigham taught that Jesus had a body of flesh and bones before He came to earth and was born into a new body.

Where can that teaching be found? I cannot find it. It seems absurd.

cachemagic wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 6:01 pm Although I believe that we do go through multiple mortalities, it creates some interesting dilemmas when you combine it with family sealings. If you have multiple mortalities, how many families can you be sealed to. Or do the same people end up getting married in each mortality?

Actually, the idea of sealings brings up some additional questions. If a couple are sealed together with all their children and each of the children are sealed together with their spouse and all their children, etc. etc. Then you don't have a single-family sealing. You have whole generations or even a whole creation all sealed together. Just as families see their children move away from home, I wonder if the only sealing that would matter would be the one with your spouse.

I am not embarrassed to say that I don't understand sealings. Maybe this is something Joseph was misled about. The context of MMPs further reduces the firmness of the foundation of sealings. How do they make sense as we have many probations? For argument's sake, let's say one went through 7 probations and had a wife during each one. Also, each wife had 7 probations and 7 husbands, and so on. Then what's the point of being sealed? How would that work?

MMPs make more sense because 1 probation is not enough time to become perfect even as Christ and the Father are perfect. The noble and great ones had to have become that way through prior probations. Adam and Eve started in a Terrestrial state, not a Telestial one. Christ for sure had leveled up to qualify to be a member of a godhead via prior probations.

I'll put my view this way, MMPs appear more fundamental than sealings.

Besides the sealing power as shown in the scriptures does not seem to be what we are doing in temples.

"8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He [Lorenzo] said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or his oracle." (Orson F. Whitney's Journal, 8 June 1889)

The following quote was give by Spencer W. Kimball, fireside address delivered in San Antonio, Texas, 3 Dec. 1977, 24–26 Chapter 29: The Importance of the Family https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of ... ng=eng#p32
Prophet Brigham Young: “‘Let me here say a word to console the feelings and hearts of all who belong to this Church. Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will be mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this, and when you have assisted in peopling one earth, there are millions of others still in the course of creation. And when they have endured a thousand million times longer than this earth, it is only as it were at the beginning of your creation. Be faithful and if you are not blessed with children in this time, you will be hereafter.’ (Deseret News, Vol. 10, p. 306, October 14, 1860.)

Heber C. Kimball
"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by the sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from this dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations." -- p. 62 (JD 6:63).
"What I do not today, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take." -- p. 62 (JD 4:329).

TPJS, P 322
There was an Episcopal priest who said he had the priesthood of Aaron, but had not the priesthood of Melchizedek: and I bear testimony that I never have found the man who claimed the Priesthood of Melchizedek. The power of the Melchizedek Priesthood is to have the power of ‘endless lives;’ for the everlasting covenant cannot be broken."

TPJS, P 396-397
Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

Hitler wishes MMPs to be a true doctrine.

I don't believe in it all the way (though I did vote for option 1) but I believe in it more than I believe in one single mortal life for a soul. I don't believe in reincarnation. If MMPs are true, I think the idea that you get a single life, you get an opportunity on A (a single) cycle of creation, giving you the opportunity to be added upon, with another opportunity on another cycle of creation is the more correct take on it. Line upon line. Here a little, there a little. The prototype of the saved man. What made Moses worthy to be Moses on this earth? What is it that's more important? Stuff we did in the pre-mortal life or stuff we do in a mortal life? If you get one mortal life and it determines everything, how was Moses (with presumably less-weighty accomplishments in the pre-earth life since our mortal life is what determines virtually everything) a spirit worthwhile enough to be called to play the role of Moses in his one, single mortal life? It couldn't have been due to grand things he did in the pre-earth life, because the plan of salvation teaches us that it's the actions in our mortal life that have the insane, eternal value.

I understand I could be completely wrong. A lot of my views are just speculation rather than set belief.


Edit: Wow, MMP Chads, we're currently winning the poll

How is MMP different from reincarnation?

MMP will be true.


Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

NeveR wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 9:18 pm How is MMP different from reincarnation?

It's not under option 2 which means having more than one mortal existence on this earth. Being reborn into a new mortal existence. That's literally the same as reincarnation. And it violates scripture in Hebrews.

Option 1 allows for variations such as Adam-God or similar theories where people take on mortality on different creations for different offices. IMO it's what is referred to in the quotes from Joseph and Brigham and Heber etc above.

NeveR wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 9:18 pm How is MMP different from reincarnation?

MMP can be interpreted as reincarnation but this is what often divides the two concepts; reincarnation is often seen as living multiple lives on this earth. MMP is often seen as living one life on an earth, doing good or bad at your mortal life and then being added upon in light and intelligence based on how you did, then at some point in the future, an opportunity to live on an another earth and do even better and ascend even more will be offered to you


Reincarnation: Someone lived in 2,000 BC on this earth, then was reincarnated and lived in 400 AD on this earth, then was reincarnated and lived in 1860 AD on this earth, etc.


MMP: someone lived a great, faithful life on this earth. They will be "added upon" for this. They will have light added to their countenance, to their essence, to their soul. They will carry that light with them and will have the chance to live on another earth in the future. Because of the righteousness they have attained to, they will have the opportunity to do greater things for God on another earth if they continue to follow God.

BuriedTartaria wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 9:44 pm

NeveR wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 9:18 pm How is MMP different from reincarnation?

MMP can be interpreted as reincarnation but this is what often divides the two concepts; reincarnation is often seen as living multiple lives on this earth. MMP is often seen as living one life on an earth, doing good or bad at your mortal life and then being added upon in light and intelligence based on how you did, then at some point in the future, an opportunity to live on an another earth and due even better and ascend even more will be offered to you

When you say "another earth" are we talking about the multi-universe hypothesis?

ADDED - Other than that this sounds quite similar to the Buddhist idea of Karma & reincarnation

For the uninitiated, such as myself, what is MMP? And are there any Scriptures or Church leaders (from Joseph Smith clear to Russell Nelson and the current Twelve) that have taught it?

Personally, I cannot see any reason for a MMP. I've studied this thing up and down, it just is not necessary. You are completely free to do what you want now, right now. You don't need a MMP. Now, if someone wants to believe in it that is their choice. I don't believe in it at all and I find no logic in it or need for it. And, to boot, I have no desire whatsoever to be mortal more than once, or to be something other than a male human. I do want to have children forever, but that is not MMP, that is eternal life. I don't want to float around in an eternal cloud by myself either, I want to be eternally in the presence of God and not unconnected to Him. He is eternal peace and joy, I want to be with Him.

Leaning yes. Eternity is a long time and we progress by degrees, grace by grace. Mortality is the day when we work by the sweat of our brow and faith is exercised as we mine more light and glory like unto the parable of the talents. But then comes the night where no work can be done and we either rest and take joy in the fruit of our labor or we mourn and howl.

I suspect that if our mortal lives are cut short (murder for example) and we haven't had the opportunity to fulfill our life's mission, we could be given the choice to return.
It would happen in rare circumstances and would be a free will choice. It's the exception which proves the rule.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 8:16 pm Hitler wishes MMPs to be a true doctrine.

For the love of all, it is my hope that they are. Think of any friends or family members that could benefit. Thick of those whose opportunities were ended prematurely. Just because they died from an accident, illness, etc. does that mean they are screwed eternally?

Or even think of yourself. Many of us here are more aware than most, perhaps, but still the ability to overcome is a challenge. I hope that I can take advantage of my lot this time around and make great strides in perfecting myself.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 1:40 am I suspect that if our mortal lives are cut short (murder for example) and we haven't had the opportunity to fulfill our life's mission, we could be given the choice to return.
It would happen in rare circumstances and would be a free will choice. It's the exception which proves the rule.

IDK, too many people were born in ages, or in places, or in circumstances too dark to have had a real opportunity.

So either the vast majority of those who come to this Earth were damned to start with our this isn't their one and only super duper brief amount of time (compared to eternity) on which to base the rest of eternal existence.

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 2:56 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 1:40 am I suspect that if our mortal lives are cut short (murder for example) and we haven't had the opportunity to fulfill our life's mission, we could be given the choice to return.
It would happen in rare circumstances and would be a free will choice. It's the exception which proves the rule.

IDK, too many people were born in ages, or in places, or in circumstances too dark to have had a real opportunity.

So either the vast majority of those who come to this Earth were damned to start with our this isn't their one and only super duper brief amount of time (compared to eternity) on which to base the rest of eternal existence.

It depends on what their life's mission was. We don't all have the same remit.

cab wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 11:27 pm Leaning yes. Eternity is a long time and we progress by degrees, grace by grace. Mortality is the day when we work by the sweat of our brow and faith is exercised as we mine more light and glory like unto the parable of the talents. But then comes the night where no work can be done and we either rest and take joy in the fruit of our labor or we mourn and howl.

If we don't repent and covenant with Christ then we have to pay for our own sins. But that payment is not endless.

As you say, no labor is done at night, but then comes the dawn and a new day.

D&C 19:6-18
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
...
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;