LDS Freedom Forum

Those of us who have memory of previous mortal lives know the reality... those who do not have such a recall do not.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 7:14 pm Those of us who have memory of previous mortal lives know the reality... those who do not have such a recall do not.

Because our memories and minds are incapable of being wrong, illusioned, or fooled?

Or some people have a 'thicker' veil than others perhaps.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 2:42 am

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 8:16 pm Hitler wishes MMPs to be a true doctrine.

For the love of all, it is my hope that they are. Think of any friends or family members that could benefit. Thick of those whose opportunities were ended prematurely. Just because they died from an accident, illness, etc. does that mean they are screwed eternally?

Or even think of yourself. Many of us here are more aware than most, perhaps, but still the ability to overcome is a challenge. I hope that I can take advantage of my lot this time around and make great strides in perfecting myself.

Wouldn't it be convenient if we could just sin and sin and sin and God just kept giving us more lives to sin in until we finally decided that we would obey? It's a pretty good excuse to justify our sinning, thinking that I'll just come back as a monkey, then a cow, then a praying mantis and then a human again and that time I won't sin. What would possibly be the reason for ever coming to the point where we obey? Accumulating goodness along the way when all we are doing is doubting and disobeying? That doesn't make sense to me, I'm all for obeying now and not for making philosophical excuses and thinking I'll get around to it in some other life.

In the eternal scheme of things, are we really on a time limit? Everyone develops at a different pace. Would God condemn a large chunk of his children because they are developing too slowly? I think MMP is the ONLY theory that actually makes sense out of eternal progression. Perhaps some of us will 'graduate' this time around. Perhaps others will need more time. If I spent an enormous amount of time planting and working in my garden, and yanked out all of my flower bulbs except the few that blossomed early, what would be the point in my garden?

MMP means you would die more than once but we are only appointed once to die unless through the priesthood you are raised from the dead to continue in mortality as the same person and the same mortality and the same mortal probation.

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

onefour1 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:58 pm MMP means you would die more than once but we are only appointed once to die unless through the priesthood you are raised from the dead to continue in mortality as the same person and the same mortality and the same mortal probation.

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Which is why option 2 is false doctrine.
Option 1 however is still possible.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:29 pm Or some people have a 'thicker' veil than others perhaps.

Many are visited by false messenger, false visions, and false revelation.
A thin veil is no guarantee which side is speaking through it.

When I think of mmp, in the context of mormonism, I think that we would come down multiple times to advance. I remember someone saying watching people change/evolve in church is like watching grass grows, with time it shows. In another post Frankone said we were young spirits, I don't think that is true for everyone, but as for myself, even in my aging body I still feel like a very young being. I think many here are a lot more advanced.

I think its difficult to advance in one creation, sufficiently to where we are like unto the Saviour. I do believe this is the telestial kingdom, where there are stars of many brightnesses. If this is a dark mirror of the kingdom of Heaven, then I would think there also beings there, that are advanced at different levels. That explains, when receiving revelation, you can get different ideas depending on who is sending the message. We also here serve one another with the light that we've obtained. I think many of my ideas have changed and evolved on account of some of the wisdom found here.

I think I see it clearly in some of my children. One of my daughters is a gifted artist, dancer and singer. My progress in art has taken a long time. But her, it seemed she was born with those talents already, she didn't really struggle to develop them.

I think a kind God would do that, like how through time there was a lower form of gospel, but at the time of the Savior the way to treat each other and how God's being was presented was at a higher level of understanding.

I also think that it's explored in the temple creation story that Adam was a being of higher glory who decided to come down and bring his posterity for them to have a chance to advance.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 7:14 pm Those of us who have memory of previous mortal lives know the reality... those who do not have such a recall do not.

Yeah there are some strange and unique things to every individual. One of my friends has shared with me that he can 'see' into the spirit realm. Something that I have never experienced.

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 9:08 pm

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:29 pm Or some people have a 'thicker' veil than others perhaps.

Many are visited by false messenger, false visions, and false revelation.
A thin veil is no guarantee which side is speaking through it.

True messages and messengers will somehow show forth a name as per march8miracle.org.

nightlight wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 9:04 am MMP.... Keep on comin till you ARE the Messiah

Fun fact:
You could live a thousand lifetimes and you'd never achieve this. None of you

Life is not about that. You're not Him.
You are called to submit as a child. And then you are GIVEN all that He has

It's the whole point of what He did


+++++++++++

^
The whole of the Gospel. Give up the adult(erous) will and submit as a child. Then....it is done .
Surrender empty and naked as in the Garden of Eden.

farmerchick wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 5:55 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 12:55 pm

Jamescm wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 10:25 am Nay, on two accounts.

First, Doctrine and Covenants 138, 17:
Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. Besides that, the scriptures are replete with statements concerning Christ being the Resurrection, and us becoming joint-heirs with Him. He didn't inherit repeated death, He inherited Immortality and Eternal Life.

Second, because one mortal probation is full of more than enough horserghs. I already do not expect anything worth the pain, anxiety, and lack of fulfilment of this life. The idea of taking on a second one is almost literally unthinkable.

Was it enough for a child soldier in Africa? Or young Jews sent to Auschwitz? An aboriginal in Australia 500 years ago? A teenage Incan girl sacrificed to the gods? A child born in slavery? And so on?

Everything can be for our benefit, but not good enough for exhalation.

Maybe you have your view because you were born now, and have the knowledge that you do?

Was the atonement of Jesus Christ enough? The answer to that question will give you the answer to all your questions. Raise your hand if you'd like to go through puberty more than once....be a teenager....or be a frog who likes to eat flies.....or a bacteria...or pond scum......or whatever organism your higher power decides you should be to start over.....

We are not talking about reincarnation and possibly being an animal or mushroom or whatever.

And yes the Atonement was enough to bring us all back except for those of perdition.

But remember that only retrieving us from physical death is for all. Spiritual death is another matter...
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

We know our journey is not over upon mortal death. And we hope to progress eternally and perfect ourselves. In order to do that, by the grace of God, we must overcome all. I don't know too many that are going to reach the level of obtaining the sealing powers like Enoch, Melchizedek, Elijah, or Nephi son of Helaman in this mortality

Jacob 4:6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.
7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.

Is it not hubris to think that we can become perfect like Jesus and God are in one veiled and immeasurably short (in comparison with eternity) mortality?

And Jesus has already obtained glory before he put it all on the line to be our Savior.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Do you think that Jesus obtained that glory without earning it?

The fact that he willingly laid down that glory, so that he could lay down His life for us makes His gift even more priceless.

We journey to become love, that is our goal. To become one with Christ, as He is one with the Father, which God is love. Love is the state required to magnify all, that we may all progress.

We know that Jesus is receiving an increase for being our Savior. We must needs walk the same path to receive the same glory. It is just.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Jesus becomes father to those who abide His Gospel. These are they whom God has given Him.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ultimately if we take upon ourselves His name and become sanctified that we may become part of the Church of the Firstborn.
As the blood of the Firstborn was shed for them who will wash themselves clean, keep the commandments, receive the Holy Ghost and endure.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:37 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 2:42 am

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 8:16 pm Hitler wishes MMPs to be a true doctrine.

For the love of all, it is my hope that they are. Think of any friends or family members that could benefit. Thick of those whose opportunities were ended prematurely. Just because they died from an accident, illness, etc. does that mean they are screwed eternally?

Or even think of yourself. Many of us here are more aware than most, perhaps, but still the ability to overcome is a challenge. I hope that I can take advantage of my lot this time around and make great strides in perfecting myself.

Wouldn't it be convenient if we could just sin and sin and sin and God just kept giving us more lives to sin in until we finally decided that we would obey? It's a pretty good excuse to justify our sinning, thinking that I'll just come back as a monkey, then a cow, then a praying mantis and then a human again and that time I won't sin. What would possibly be the reason for ever coming to the point where we obey? Accumulating goodness along the way when all we are doing is doubting and disobeying? That doesn't make sense to me, I'm all for obeying now and not for making philosophical excuses and thinking I'll get around to it in some other life.

In the eternal scheme of things, are we really on a time limit? Everyone develops at a different pace. Would God condemn a large chunk of his children because they are developing too slowly? I think MMP is the ONLY theory that actually makes sense out of eternal progression. Perhaps some of us will 'graduate' this time around. Perhaps others will need more time. If I spent an enormous amount of time planting and working in my garden, and yanked out all of my flower bulbs except the few that blossomed early, what would be the point in my garden?

You can think that if you want, but it does not make it true and it certainly does not have any type of resonance with me. I take God at His word and not at how I would like to interpret it. Because I can tell you of all men I am one of them that would actually like another chance and might even deserve one. But we don't need one, it's the mortality part that is being worshipped, not the God-given opportunity this one term is giving us. So, that is my two cents, I am done with this topic. You can have the last word.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 2:22 am

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:37 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 2:42 am

For the love of all, it is my hope that they are. Think of any friends or family members that could benefit. Thick of those whose opportunities were ended prematurely. Just because they died from an accident, illness, etc. does that mean they are screwed eternally?

Or even think of yourself. Many of us here are more aware than most, perhaps, but still the ability to overcome is a challenge. I hope that I can take advantage of my lot this time around and make great strides in perfecting myself.

Wouldn't it be convenient if we could just sin and sin and sin and God just kept giving us more lives to sin in until we finally decided that we would obey? It's a pretty good excuse to justify our sinning, thinking that I'll just come back as a monkey, then a cow, then a praying mantis and then a human again and that time I won't sin. What would possibly be the reason for ever coming to the point where we obey? Accumulating goodness along the way when all we are doing is doubting and disobeying? That doesn't make sense to me, I'm all for obeying now and not for making philosophical excuses and thinking I'll get around to it in some other life.

In the eternal scheme of things, are we really on a time limit? Everyone develops at a different pace. Would God condemn a large chunk of his children because they are developing too slowly? I think MMP is the ONLY theory that actually makes sense out of eternal progression. Perhaps some of us will 'graduate' this time around. Perhaps others will need more time. If I spent an enormous amount of time planting and working in my garden, and yanked out all of my flower bulbs except the few that blossomed early, what would be the point in my garden?

You can think that if you want, but it does not make it true and it certainly does not have any type of resonance with me. I take God at His word and not at how I would like to interpret it. Because I can tell you of all men I am one of them that would actually like another chance and might even deserve one. But we don't need one, it's the mortality part that is being worshipped, not the God-given opportunity this one term is giving us. So, that is my two cents, I am done with this topic. You can have the last word.

777

With or workout MMP it doesn't matter. We still need to take full advantage of this time that we have now.

1775peasant wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 6:53 pm this will make one question, if?


https://youtu.be/-JrSi7rWWpM

https://youtu.be/-JrSi7rWWpM

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 8:29 pm Or some people have a 'thicker' veil than others perhaps.

i’ve never had such take place for myself, as Elizabeth obviously…..but i do believe it’s possible, and maybe not for everyone? just as everyone certainly hasn’t the gifts of Joseph Smith……

also, as to that “veil” and it’s thickness….. could it be that the depth of thickness might be, self-inflicted? i do believe that we, ourselves have made numerous such “parameters” upon our spirituality within our mortal lives whether knowingly or not?

Yeah...the veil thicker for people who don't believe in mpp...
Lol you people man...

I've seen and talked to angels while awake.
I've seen demons while awake.
I've had visions while awake.
I've seen thinngs I can't speak of.

And not some vague, in my brain/imagination...kind of stuff.

For those who don't believe in MMP, don't let the reincarnation crowd make you feel like you're further from the supernatural

Most of these people have never even talked with an angel or had an actual waking vision, etc. They may speak of a dead grandma or grandpa coming to temple, and that's cool.... but.....

Folks trying to prove reincarnation using children and rememberance of their past lives....
People don't understand what familiar spirits are


Anything that comes to this world from the other side and doesn't teach Christ is King, that we must become as children... that we must let go of our pride and lust.....they are suspect

Anything that leaves you with a stupor of thought. Anything that doesn't fill you up and make want to partake in community & Christ....it is suspect.

If you really have experienced the presence of Jesus Christ and His Messengers.... Nothing can counterfeit it. The devil can't recreate the Holy Ghost. It is how Adam identifies the fraud across the river.

Don't be fooled by familiar spirits.

farmerchick wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 5:55 pm Was the atonement of Jesus Christ enough?

NO. The atonement has nothing to do with us obtaining the necessary attributes of godliness. It has to do with overcoming the problems we came upon in the process. The atonement allows us to overcome the mistakes we made learning to become like god. It does not imply learning for us. Us being forgiven w/o having gained the knowledge, Us not having to learning about harsh things of life at all. Etc... We must experience good-and-evil. and overcome the evil. then the atonement will do the rest. Anyone who thinks an all forgiving god will forgive us in our sins (weaknesses and missing attributes) doesn't understand the purpose of life, any life for that matter.

And also, no. a person cannot be born and die in one single life at 2 weeks and become ready for exaltation due to pre-mortal spiritual accomplishments (physical accomplishments but not in spirit body only). that is like saying how we can all overcome the natural man in our spirit bodies, while awaiting resurrection. It just doesn't fit logic. I see over and over those claiming Nephi's words that little children that die being innocent have proven themselves of "everything". If that is the case then nothing makes sense and any good parent would surely offer their children as sacrifices before their 8th birthday to assure their exaltation and eternal life. It is just beyond comprehension what people will believe if it just feels nice. IMO. MMP or not, eternal progression is a VERY long and arduous process that uses constant pressure and love from above with the atonement to bring all of us home (eventually). there are NO shortcuts, not one.

I don't categorize Multiple Mortalities as only one per creation. Here are references I have put together that discuss MMP.
https://salemthoughts.com/Topics/Multip ... ties.shtml

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 2:22 am ... it's the mortality part that is being worshipped, not the God-given opportunity this one term is giving us.

I agree, very well and succinctly stated.

madvin wrote: ↑December 16th, 2022, 1:35 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑December 15th, 2022, 2:22 am ... it's the mortality part that is being worshipped, not the God-given opportunity this one term is giving us.

I agree, very well and succinctly stated.

Worship of mortality? What the... Ewww, mortality is not for the faint of heart. This is a rough existence. The chances of someone else's exercise of their agency can end the journey of an innocent is great. Not to mention coming here veiled and confronted with opposition at every turn. I understand that it is necessary, but I don't see how one trip is enough to learn, to progress.

The failure rate of this estate is incredibly high. As if God wanted everyone to take and make a full-court shot (basketball) and make it. If you miss, too bad for you but you get to stay at the same level forever more. And it severely limits the glory that we can bring to God.

MMP makes more sense from the eternal perspective.

Think MMP and go to minute 1:02:00.

Quick context, this guy has been going into and studying altered states of consciousness for 50 years through techniques, not drugs. Our physical reality is a virtual reality designed for us to gain experience. Consciousness is more fundamental than the reality that we are experiencing. I would define consciousness as = to an intelligence as we would think of it (clothed in spirit is fine too).

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 3:56 am

cab wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 11:27 pm Leaning yes. Eternity is a long time and we progress by degrees, grace by grace. Mortality is the day when we work by the sweat of our brow and faith is exercised as we mine more light and glory like unto the parable of the talents. But then comes the night where no work can be done and we either rest and take joy in the fruit of our labor or we mourn and howl.

If we don't repent and covenant with Christ then we have to pay for our own sins. But that payment is not endless.

As you say, no labor is done at night, but then comes the dawn and a new day.

D&C 19:6-18
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
...
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

I tend to agree.
But how are we to understand the difference between endless an eternal?

cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2022, 8:15 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2022, 3:56 am

cab wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 11:27 pm Leaning yes. Eternity is a long time and we progress by degrees, grace by grace. Mortality is the day when we work by the sweat of our brow and faith is exercised as we mine more light and glory like unto the parable of the talents. But then comes the night where no work can be done and we either rest and take joy in the fruit of our labor or we mourn and howl.

If we don't repent and covenant with Christ then we have to pay for our own sins. But that payment is not endless.

As you say, no labor is done at night, but then comes the dawn and a new day.

D&C 19:6-18
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
...
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

I tend to agree.
But how are we to understand the difference between endless an eternal?

Endless is said for effect there as the Lord explained.

Eternal is also started for effect and I think means it's that it will assuredly happen. That punishment is unavoidable, because God's words will never pass away, they are eternal.