An answer to why the Church does not oppose Babylon

[Truth will Prevail]

An answer to why the Church does not oppose Babylon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfw33W-lXhY part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jlz5_NcikE part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NU3gUIos0Y part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el8TaoDylx4 part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W195Y-gnN5E part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9rwJwxFpJc part 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbx-XqKnbq0 part 7

[BroJones]

I've started listening to these, TruthPrevail -- thanks for posting.

THESE ARE TALKS BY RICHARD DRAPER (AUDIO) AND DISCUSS THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

[Mahonri]

An answer to why the Church does not oppose Babylon

The real answer to why is what lead up to this:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1

[reidbump]

Listened to all of them. Informative and interesting. Thanks for posting.

[gruden]

Thanks for posting that. Good stuff.

It puts the Church's active opposition to Prop. 8 in a different light. The great serpent almost seems to enjoy that kind of fight.

[lamanite_mormonGirl]

thanks for posting this, I too wonder sometimes if we are in the beginning of the 42 months.

[AussieOi]

An answer to why the Church does not oppose Babylon

The real answer to why is what lead up to this:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1

to stuff and words of wisdom- well, they are the lords words so that says enough

note this was a singular issue. we're not a US church fighting the US govt on a single issue. we're talking a global combination.

that said, if we go and fight against a global combination, will it strike back the entire church??? how would it do that?

And would at least make members aware of it be regarded as "fighting it"?

one final point of the church being seen to be cosy with the same persons and powers that we apparently fight against- makes it hard for those of us taking the fight upon ourselves individually

sometimes i think that is unfair on the ignorant republican style US member who isn't aware enough to understand that the current USA is part of "that great satan"

but great post to make.

personally, i don't think the manifesto confiscation issue of 120 yrs ago in 1 country is sufficient reason to not raise awareness of what this combination is, at least in simple terms.

then again one only need read our scriptures and attend the temple to think- gee, who could these people be. before they see their kids off to die in a foreign war of heat and blowing sand, and call them a patriot.....









EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO
The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)
It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .
I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .
The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.
The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?
The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .
I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)
Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

[joseph]

Very enlightening videos. Thanks for sharing this link. The quote by Prophet Woodruff is a reminder that the Lord's way is not man's way.

[Truth will Prevail]

An answer to why the Church does not oppose Babylon

The real answer to why is what lead up to this:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1

to stuff and words of wisdom- well, they are the lords words so that says enough

note this was a singular issue. we're not a US church fighting the US govt on a single issue. we're talking a global combination.

that said, if we go and fight against a global combination, will it strike back the entire church??? how would it do that?

And would at least make members aware of it be regarded as "fighting it"?

one final point of the church being seen to be cosy with the same persons and powers that we apparently fight against- makes it hard for those of us taking the fight upon ourselves individually

sometimes i think that is unfair on the ignorant republican style US member who isn't aware enough to understand that the current USA is part of "that great satan"

but great post to make.

personally, i don't think the manifesto confiscation issue of 120 yrs ago in 1 country is sufficient reason to not raise awareness of what this combination is, at least in simple terms.

then again one only need read our scriptures and attend the temple to think- gee, who could these people be. before they see their kids off to die in a foreign war of heat and blowing sand, and call them a patriot.....









EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO
The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)
It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .
I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .
The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.
The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?
The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .
I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)
Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

I like how you put things. Being straight with people and not flowering things up, TRUTH is TRUTH, and right now it does look like both sides are pretty cosy with each other, this HAS to change and it will, this is our great TEST will we pass it as individuals??? Brigham Young had a fear and that fear was that people would attempt a type of freindship between Jesus Christ and Baal and he says that this can never happen, they can never be friends and an attempt will only lead to disaster. I read that in Jack Monnetts book "awakening to our awful situation".

[Mark]

Great talk by Bro. Draper. I particularly liked his explanations of the mark of the beast and all that intales. We need to be careful not to get caught up in the established meanings set forth by apostate Christianity on Johns visions. We also need to be careful of becoming to distracted from our true purpose of building Zion within our own hearts thereby allowing us to escape Babylons snares. The Brethren are doing exactly as they should in their roles as watchmen on the tower. Direct confrontation with the Beast is not the role of the church and its servents at this time. Those who think otherwise are misinformed.

[Mahonri]

An answer to why the Church does not oppose Babylon

The real answer to why is what lead up to this:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1

to stuff and words of wisdom- well, they are the lords words so that says enough

Not sure what you mean by that.

If you look at what led up to that manifesto, I think it is very sound to extrapolate that to our current situation in the Church.

[NoGreaterLove]

What I gather from this lecture by Brother Draper, is what I have gathered from the prophets who proclaim the words and works of Christ. That is; the way to defeat evil, is to proclaim good by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. By keeping our covenants with Christ, the power of good is unleashed in the fury of God and Satan is thrust down to hell where he belongs.

[NoGreaterLove]

I do not think our role in this life, in this dispensation is to be whistle blowers. I feel we are wasting our time drawing attention to our enemies, when we should be using our concerted efforts and talents to preach of Christ and Him resurrected.
By actively proclaiming our testimonies of Christ, we do the most good. I would imagine Satan loves it when we use the time we could be testifying of Christ and inviting all to come unto him for pursuits that seem valiant but are not with the program that Christ has set. For he said.
D&C 11
8 Verily, verily, I say unto you, even as you desire of me so it shall be done unto you; and, if you desire, you shall be the means of doing much good in this generation.
9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation. Keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed.

D&C 15
4 For many times you have desired of me to know that which would be of the most worth unto you.
5 Behold, blessed are you for this thing, and for speaking my words which I have given you according to my commandments.
6 And now, behold, I say unto you, that the thing which will be of the most worth unto you will be to declare repentance unto this people, that you may bring souls unto me, that you may rest with them in the kingdom of my Father. Amen.

[Nan]

Actually in the Book of Mormon it says that the wicked will punish the wicked. It is our job to be obedient and do what is right. God will take care of the wicked. We just have to make sure we aren't part of them.

[SAM]

NoGreaterLove, I don't disagree that we should preach, teach and be examples of repentance and righteousness in order to defeat evil. However, what do you think of those general authorities, Benson, Clark, McKay, Grant, etc., who were "whistle blowers" in their day? They were not only preaching righteousness but telling us about the evil surrounding us in fairly specific and certain terms. I think there is room for both to varying degrees. Some of us may feel part of our mission is to call attention to the evil around us in order to educate those around us. Others may feel it is more of their mission to be very specifically focused on missionary work, etc. I don't think one is less important than another, just different battle fronts. We should just all follow the Spirit to know where we need to be and what we need to say to be the best possible soldier in the Lord's army, in whatever battle He needs us engaged in. We can't fight on all fronts at all times, but I don't think we should discount others' efforts in battles we don't feel we need to fight. We have all been given different missions because we all have something different to contribute.

[NoGreaterLove]

CF
I know what you are saying, but we have a modern day prophet leading us in a different way. I personally will follow him. I am ready to go in whatever direction he says, but for now it does not seem to me we are required to spill blood.
The Lord has a plan and it will come down from the prophet. If we stray from his teachings, we will pay a heavy price. A man can do no good for his family and friends when he is dead or in prison. Some may be called to give their blood at some time, but I do not think it is yet.

[NoGreaterLove]

The story of Hauns Mill comes to mind. The saints were well within their rights to stay and fight the unlawful oppression which come their way. But remember what Joseph said. He told them to leave their homes behind and join him. After they were slaughtered, he said no one has ever lost their lives who had followed his counsel. Now I am not sure we are promised we will not lose our lives if we follow the counsel of the prophet, but at least if we die, we die in the Lord, having followed the prophets counsel.

[SAM]

CF I know what you are saying, but we have a modern day prophet leading us in a different way. I personally will follow him. I am ready to go in whatever direction he says, but for now it does not seem to me we are required to spill blood.
The Lord has a plan and it will come down from the prophet. If we stray from his teachings, we will pay a heavy price. A man can do no good for his family and friends when he is dead or in prison. Some may be called to give their blood at some time, but I do not think it is yet.

I agree the prophet is currently not leading us, as a general church, in that direction. I think individuals, however, who feel inspired / compelled to fight that particular battle are not necessarily focusing their efforts amiss. We can't know what the Spirit directs them to do, which I am sure you don't disagree with.

I was just reading D&C 86 and thought these verses, about the church as a whole, and the current direction the prophets are leading us was especially applicable to this discussion.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:
2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed;
3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.
4 But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—
5 Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;
6 But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.
7 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.

It seems even the angels are anxious that something be done, but Lord reminds them and us that we need to wait for the right time. Our faith has be sufficiently strong to withstand the reaping, otherwise we won't survive the harvest. I thank the Lord for that mercy and hope I will be ready when the time does come because it seems to be coming quickly.