LDS Freedom Forum

I have been studying the New Testament more thoroughly this year and have a question that has bothered me. Perhaps someone can help me understand the difference between what we do in the temple to what Jesus says "comes from evil" in Matthew 5:33-37.
“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."

I want you to know I’ve seen this, and am thinking about it.

It’s a fascinating scripture. I’ll try to remember to get back to this when I have a bit more time.

This seems like a good starting point for gaining understanding:

https://www.sermononthemount.org.uk/Ma ... e-yes.html

Ado wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 6:02 pm I have been studying the New Testament more thoroughly this year and have a question that has bothered me. Perhaps someone can help me understand the difference between what we do in the temple to what Jesus says "comes from evil" in Matthew 5:33-37.
“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."

This has been one that has always stood out and bothered me. I swept it away for awhile with the all is well attitude but whenever I think about the exact wording in the temple on the law of consecration and the named benefactor of such a commitment, well it's a good question.

endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 7:40 pm This seems like a good starting point for gaining understanding:

https://www.sermononthemount.org.uk/Ma ... e-yes.html

From that article:
"When you guarantee your word by swearing on something for which God has responsibility, then, should you break your word, you steal God’s reputation. God’s decisions are unchanging and, if we follow his example, then ‘yes’ or ‘no’ are enough. Only if your intent is evil will you feel the need to support your words with oaths."

So what I am left wondering is that isn't this what we do in the temple? Make an oath in a way that is so secret and so sacred we can't reveal it in order to lend support to our intentions? When I went through the first time to receive my endowment over a decade ago, I thought I had already agreed to the covenants made in the temple before actually going into the temple. What was the purpose of the signs and tokens that we are sworn to never reveal outside of the temple if not to support my oaths? How is it not guaranteeing my word by mimicking esoteric hand gestures that I am sworn to never reveal? It was a combination of those arcane rituals, repeated phrases and ceremonial clothing that left me sitting in the celestial room with my family feeling a bit panicked and icky, and I've never quite been able to reconcile that feeling in spite of my efforts.

endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 7:32 pm I want you to know I’ve seen this, and am thinking about it.

It’s a fascinating scripture. I’ll try to remember to get back to this when I have a bit more time.

viewtopic.php?p=965514&hilit=Masonic+temple#p965514

At the link above, a bunch of scriptures are cited by someone who has posted about his exceptional Patriarchal Blessing and how his Spirit helped him select his Patriarch.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑December 9th, 2022, 2:00 am

endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 7:32 pm I want you to know I’ve seen this, and am thinking about it.

It’s a fascinating scripture. I’ll try to remember to get back to this when I have a bit more time.

viewtopic.php?p=965514&hilit=Masonic+temple#p965514

At the link above, a bunch of scriptures are cited by someone who has posted about his exceptional Patriarchal Blessing and how his Spirit helped him select his Patriarch.

That's an interesting thread. I'll take some time when I get a chance to read through it more thoroughly. Thank you!

"The wicked bind themselves together by Oaths,
Whilst the Righteous are bound together by Love alone"

Just like all the other comparisons mentioned here on the Sermon on the Mount, I believe that his teaching on this point can more or less be summed up as shooting straight and being forthcoming with your speech. Let your word be your word, end of story. Why should you have to resort to exuberant displays of swearing an oath when simply letting your answer be Yes or No and letting it be the final word will suffice.
Raising your arm to the cross and making a covenant is about as unformal as can be for putting your soul up for sacrifice if broken. I love how God doesn't bother with fine print and contracts.

Ado wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 6:02 pm Perhaps someone can help me understand the difference between what we do in the temple to what Jesus says "comes from evil" in Matthew 5:33-37.

Nobody can help you understand this difference because there is no difference. The Lord's language is clear. Don't swear oaths. Period. Don't swear by your head, which means by your life. The temple oaths are in complete violation of the Savior's words.

It used to be even worse. We would pantomime the slitting of our throats with a hand gesture, which is exactly swearing by your life or in other words by your head.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 9:30 pm

Ado wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 6:02 pm Perhaps someone can help me understand the difference between what we do in the temple to what Jesus says "comes from evil" in Matthew 5:33-37.

Nobody can help you understand this difference because there is no difference. The Lord's language is clear. Don't swear oaths. Period. Don't swear by your head, which means by your life. The temple oaths are in complete violation of the Savior's words.

It used to be even worse. We would pantomime the slitting of our throats with a hand gesture, which is exactly swearing by your life or in other words by your head.

If you have to sustain "prophets" who are parroting the "safe and effective" lie in order to go to their temple, then you don't need to go to their temple. God's temple wouldn't have such a ridiculous requirement. Learned this in Truth 101. Good to review the course outline periodically.

I notice these days how most every high-level talk has a temple sales presentation woven into it.

I find it ironic in this context that atheists affirm while Christians place their hands on the Bible in court.

I don't think comparisons with the temple endowment are entirely accurate. When we make a covenant there, we simply say "Yes" or "No". So in that regard there is no issue.
The hand gestures are a left-over from the penalty days and don't serve any purpose in my view. I wouldn't be surprised if they are discarded in the next review following a survey/questionnaire.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 6:04 am I don't think comparisons with the temple endowment are entirely accurate. When we make a covenant there, we simply say "Yes" or "No". So in that regard there is no issue.
The hand gestures are a left-over from the penalty days and don't serve any purpose in my view. I wouldn't be surprised if they are discarded in the next review following a survey/questionnaire.

I think that they are place holders for the real thing. In the temple we are only acting, maybe practicing.

It makes sense to me that BY saw the similarities with free masonry grips, and then when BY took over, he took it to the next level and added in the curses.

Personally, I love the hand grips once I finally figured out what they meant. The entire ceremony is about our mortal life here on earth and our relationship with the father. The hand grips also fit in perfectly with this theme.

Ado wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 6:02 pm I have been studying the New Testament more thoroughly this year and have a question that has bothered me. Perhaps someone can help me understand the difference between what we do in the temple to what Jesus says "comes from evil" in Matthew 5:33-37.
“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."

No, no one can help you understand this.
I understand it, but then I am a genius.

I dont see a problem with the details of temple practices, the overall point is to have a symbolic system (based on priesthood keys) that helps us show our devotion to God until the day we return to his presence.

Intentions is key.

I believe that the billions of people that never had a chance to hear the gospel on earth but had good intentions of loving and following a "GOD" will accept the proxy work we humans do in the temple for them. Who cares what article of clothing we put on or a particular handshake, just do the work.

I dont see a problem with the details of temple practices, the overall point is to have a symbolic system (based on priesthood keys) that helps us show our devotion to God until the day we return to his presence.

Intentions is key.

I believe that the billions of people that never had a chance to hear the gospel on earth but had good intentions of loving and following a "GOD" will accept the proxy work we humans do in the temple for them. Who cares what article of clothing we put on or a particular handshake, just do the work.

Maybe: you have no control on all those externals you’d swear on, so just don’t. It’s like your own promise isn’t good enough so you’ve gotta lean on something else. Only do God’s will - no need to make a big announcement involving a 3rd party.

The endowment secret swearing/oaths are based on freemasonry secret combinations, so IMO, it does come from evil. Many of us sensed this - I know some who went through the lds temple endowment back when they included the Freemasonry part swearing to cut your throat if you ever told the secrets… & that upset them so much they never went back.

Ado wrote: ↑December 8th, 2022, 6:02 pm I have been studying the New Testament more thoroughly this year and have a question that has bothered me. Perhaps someone can help me understand the difference between what we do in the temple to what Jesus says "comes from evil" in Matthew 5:33-37.
“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."

The way I see it, is to keep your answers concise and to the point: answer either yes or no. Coming from a logging community up in the mountains, most would answer "h*ll yes" or "h*ll no".... especially when frustrated. I am working to answer either "yes" or "no". I guess you would say this is my goal.

It’s not about using filthy language; it’s entirely about making oaths.