Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

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Shawn Henry
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Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Shawn Henry »

In Section 98 the Lord gives us his standard for when we are justified in going against our enemies and how many times the Law requires us to forgive. He then singles out Nephi among our forefathers.

"Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles."

Why does Nephi get this first mention from the Lord?

In verses 39 and 40 the Lord tells us what to do when our enemies repent, we forgive them, until 7 times 70.

Starting in verse 41 he states what his Law is when they don't repent.

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him...

This was the Law given to Nephi and all the Fathers. The first 3 times an offense is given without repentance, forgiveness is required. The fourth time you bring his offenses to the Lord and your enemy is still afforded time to repent.

Once these first 3 witnesses against your enemy are established, the Law also gives you an option starting with the 4th offense. You can "spare him" and it will be "rewarded for thy righteousness" or you can reward him "according to his works" and if you choose this "you are justified".

The problem with Nephi is that there are only two offenses by Laban against him. Nephi was not in accordance with the Law.

The biggest key here is Nephi's own language when he says he was "constrained" by the spirit. If you look up constrained in the Webster's 1828 dictionary, out of the 5 definitions, all 5 have some degree of force in their meaning. The Holy Spirit does not operate by force.

It is my contention that Nephi was tricked into killing Laban and listened to a different spirit. His story then becomes a type, pointing as a witness to the Garden of Eden story where Adam and Eve likewise listened to the wrong spirit, but in both situations, a future for their children was made possible.

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Jonah wasn't constrained to preach in Nineveh either, right?

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Laban had broken the Law of Moses twice where Nephi was concerned which was punishable by death. People were stoned for less than what Laban had done to Nephi and his brothers, but Laban had already committed an offense toward God:

17 For he (Lehi) knew that Jerusalem must be destroyed, because of the wickedness of the people.
18 For behold, they have rejected the words of the prophets. Wherefore, if my father should dwell in the land after he hath been commanded to flee out of the land, behold, he would also perish. Wherefore, it must needs be that he flee out of the land.

As the custodian of the plates, Laban should have known better. He had no excuse.

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Laban had caused even Jeremiah's words to be written down on the brass plates so he clearly not only kept his record current, but he ignored its warnings.

1 Nephi 5:12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;
13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:10 pm As the custodian of the plates, Laban should have known better. He had no excuse.
True, as are your other points. They are just not on topic.

Could you read section 98 and give me your reasoning why Nephi was singled out and whether that section matches what he did. Until we figure why the Lord first referenced Nephi, we haven't really gone anywhere.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

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The killing of Laban was one of those things that always bothered me until I realized that the Israelites were a covenant society and that the death penalty was prescribed for certain offences. In this case I believe that the one chosen to administer the penalty for a capital offence was Nephi. Somebody had to be the one to adminidter the penalty but that was usually left to the community, en masse, to do the dirty work.

I'm not sure if this is significant but it has got me thinking, hmmmm.

Mike

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:21 pm
marc wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:10 pm As the custodian of the plates, Laban should have known better. He had no excuse.
True, as are your other points. They are just not on topic.

Could you read section 98 and give me your reasoning why Nephi was singled out and whether that section matches what he did. Until we figure why the Lord first referenced Nephi, we haven't really gone anywhere.
Fair enough. Unless you can demonstrate that the Lord gave the D&C 98 law to Nephi before he slew Laban and not sometime later, perhaps in the case of defending his people against his new Lamanite enemies (Laman, Lemuel, etc) after they separated, then I suggest he did not fail your test.

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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Also, I am very familiar with D&C 98 as I quoted it in my book "By A Thread." I suggest that the Lord taught this to Nephi as a condition of going out to battle against his brethren/enemies the Lamanites. Nephi fabricated many swords, but not as weapons of offense.

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.
Last edited by marc on December 6th, 2022, 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:21 pm
marc wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:10 pm As the custodian of the plates, Laban should have known better. He had no excuse.
True, as are your other points. They are just not on topic.

Could you read section 98 and give me your reasoning why Nephi was singled out and whether that section matches what he did. Until we figure why the Lord first referenced Nephi, we haven't really gone anywhere.
Section 98 is modern scripture and part of the covenant God made with we, the Gentiles. It is possible that the expectations for certain things are higher for us. The Shepherd left the flock to save the stray sheep, the Israelites. They were a most wicked people and the best was sent to save them. I always wondered what made me, a Gentile, a grafted branch as opposed to being born of the root.

Mike

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Luke
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Luke »

marc wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:26 pm Fair enough. Unless you can demonstrate that the Lord gave the D&C 98 law to Nephi before he slew Laban and not sometime later, perhaps in the case of defending his people against his new Lamanite enemies (Laman, Lemuel, etc) after they separated, then I suggest he did not fail your test.
This was my thought, too.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

Remember that the Israelite covenant was "an eye for an eye" and it is obvious that section 98 is a higher law. Nephi was an Israelite living in a time before Christ.

Mike

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nightlight
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by nightlight »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 2:48 pm In Section 98 the Lord gives us his standard for when we are justified in going against our enemies and how many times the Law requires us to forgive. He then singles out Nephi among our forefathers.

"Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles."

Why does Nephi get this first mention from the Lord?

In verses 39 and 40 the Lord tells us what to do when our enemies repent, we forgive them, until 7 times 70.

Starting in verse 41 he states what his Law is when they don't repent.

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him...

This was the Law given to Nephi and all the Fathers. The first 3 times an offense is given without repentance, forgiveness is required. The fourth time you bring his offenses to the Lord and your enemy is still afforded time to repent.

Once these first 3 witnesses against your enemy are established, the Law also gives you an option starting with the 4th offense. You can "spare him" and it will be "rewarded for thy righteousness" or you can reward him "according to his works" and if you choose this "you are justified".

The problem with Nephi is that there are only two offenses by Laban against him. Nephi was not in accordance with the Law.

The biggest key here is Nephi's own language when he says he was "constrained" by the spirit. If you look up constrained in the Webster's 1828 dictionary, out of the 5 definitions, all 5 have some degree of force in their meaning. The Holy Spirit does not operate by force.

It is my contention that Nephi was tricked into killing Laban and listened to a different spirit. His story then becomes a type, pointing as a witness to the Garden of Eden story where Adam and Eve likewise listened to the wrong spirit, but in both situations, a future for their children was made possible.
God commanded Laban to give the plates to their family. He didn't. Strike one

But that's all besides the point.

Lol you have no idea all the things Laban did or didn't do. You have no idea what he was guilty before God with.

Why didn't God given Ananias multiple chances? ⚡

Nephi was going to spare.....but.....

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. "

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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by endlessQuestions »

I think what the Lord was referring to is pretty clear based on the historical context of the section.

One important rule of debate is that you don’t have to allow the person making a claim to frame the debate and set the question.

I think if the claim here is “Nephi wasn’t justified in killing Laban” you’ve fallen far short of providing any kind of compelling or conclusive evidence. The whole theory might be of interest as an data point inside the context of the question “Was Nephi justified in killing Laban?”, however.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:26 pm Fair enough. Unless you can demonstrate that the Lord gave the D&C 98 law to Nephi before he slew Laban and not sometime later, perhaps in the case of defending his people against his new Lamanite enemies (Laman, Lemuel, etc) after they separated, then I suggest he did not fail your test.
The text does not say before, but it definitely implies before. It says he gave this Law to Nephi and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. It had to have been on the Brass Plates. The other possibility is that it was not on the Brass Plates and was lost by Nephi's time and he gave it to Nephi after.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Shawn Henry »

MikeMaillet wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:23 pm The killing of Laban was one of those things that always bothered me until I realized that the Israelites were a covenant society and that the death penalty was prescribed for certain offences. In this case I believe that the one chosen to administer the penalty for a capital offence was Nephi. Somebody had to be the one to adminidter the penalty but that was usually left to the community, en masse, to do the dirty work.

I'm not sure if this is significant but it has got me thinking, hmmmm.

Mike
Significant yes, but still ask yourself why the Lord singled out Nephi in section 98.

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Mindfields
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Mindfields »

MikeMaillet wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:40 pm Remember that the Israelite covenant was "an eye for an eye" and it is obvious that section 98 is a higher law. Nephi was an Israelite living in a time before Christ.

Mike
Except the Nephites knew all about Christ and his mission. They even knew his name according to the Book of Mormon.

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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:52 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:23 pm The killing of Laban was one of those things that always bothered me until I realized that the Israelites were a covenant society and that the death penalty was prescribed for certain offences. In this case I believe that the one chosen to administer the penalty for a capital offence was Nephi. Somebody had to be the one to adminidter the penalty but that was usually left to the community, en masse, to do the dirty work.

I'm not sure if this is significant but it has got me thinking, hmmmm.

Mike
Significant yes, but still ask yourself why the Lord singled out Nephi in section 98.
I'm going to go and read the section again. I'm intrigued.

Mike

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Mindfields
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Mindfields »

God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:34 pm This was my thought, too.
Look at what was preserved on the Brass Plates; Zenos, Zenock, and much more. It is not likely that this law was removed, but it's possible. If Abraham through Joseph had it, it is likely it continued.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

Mindfields wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:53 pm
MikeMaillet wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:40 pm Remember that the Israelite covenant was "an eye for an eye" and it is obvious that section 98 is a higher law. Nephi was an Israelite living in a time before Christ.

Mike
Except the Nephites knew all about Christ and his mission. They even knew his name according to the Book of Mormon.
They would certainly have known of Christ's mission but the Israelites had made a covenant with Jehovah and it was still in force. The birth of Christ was still a future event for Nephi.

Mike

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Shawn Henry »

MikeMaillet wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:40 pm Remember that the Israelite covenant was "an eye for an eye" and it is obvious that section 98 is a higher law. Nephi was an Israelite living in a time before Christ.

Mike
Yes, but the Lord is telling us in 98 that he gave Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Nephi this law specific law, so we know they had it. Also, the Lord doesn't mention any other laws in that section, so logically he is referencing the law they were primarily under.

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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by MikeMaillet »

Mindfields wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
What about the Israelites and their having to kill the Caananites to inherit the promised land?

Mike

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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by nightlight »

Mindfields wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm God commanding people to kill other people is bull shiz in my opinion. More like people killing people and blaming it on God after the fact to somehow absolve themselves.
Do you think God kills people?

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Luke
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:55 pm
Luke wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:34 pm This was my thought, too.
Look at what was preserved on the Brass Plates; Zenos, Zenock, and much more. It is not likely that this law was removed, but it's possible. If Abraham through Joseph had it, it is likely it continued.
He didn't have access to the Brass Plates at that point, though.

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marc
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Re: Nephi failed the 1 Nephi 3:7 test

Post by marc »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:50 pm
marc wrote: December 6th, 2022, 3:26 pm Fair enough. Unless you can demonstrate that the Lord gave the D&C 98 law to Nephi before he slew Laban and not sometime later, perhaps in the case of defending his people against his new Lamanite enemies (Laman, Lemuel, etc) after they separated, then I suggest he did not fail your test.
The text does not say before, but it definitely implies before. It says he gave this Law to Nephi and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. It had to have been on the Brass Plates. The other possibility is that it was not on the Brass Plates and was lost by Nephi's time and he gave it to Nephi after.
I don't believe that it implies before. Nephi slew Laban before he could even have known what was on the plates. Before Lehi's theophany, they were regular altar building, sacrifice offering Jews who knew as much or little about prophecies as the next Jew. We don't know what texts, parchments, scrolls, etc of scriptures they may or may not have had before leaving Jerusalem. We live in a time where everyone can buy mass produced canons of scriptures. Back then the it required a LOT of resources required to reproduce a copy of the Tanakh (Law of Moses and the prophets/writings). It's a stretch to say that Nephi knew about this particular law which was not part of the Law of Moses before he slew Laban, even if it was on the brass plates.
Last edited by marc on December 6th, 2022, 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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