Church Growth

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Atrasado
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Church Growth

Post by Atrasado »

I think we have all been noticing changes in Church growth. This professor's paper, The End of Growth? Fading Prospects for Latter-day Saint Expansion, examines what has been happening.

The analysis contrasting our Church's approach to missionary work with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist's approaches was particularly disheartening.
Contemporary Jehovah’s Witness and Seventh-day Adventist approaches to conversion have long utilized principles of “low-pressure selling” (Stark and Iannaccone 1997, 140). These groups have implemented more rigorous baptismal standards, baptized more converts, and achieved higher convert retention than the LDS Church. Jehovah’s Witnesses typically conduct baptisms only three times annually, and emphasize “a strong, rational basis underlying their wish [for baptism], rather than just emotion” and firm, demonstrated commitment to keeping one’s promises (Secaira 2016). Witness converts typically attend for six months to a year before baptism, and some longer. Seventh-day Adventists do not prescribe a specific period, but for decades have required “a radical change in the life” of prospective converts. Candidates must complete dedicated Bible study and receive approval of the local church board to safeguard from “unknown problems in a candidate’s life that should have been taken care of before baptism” (SDA 1981). Many prospective converts attend for months; the most enthusiastic are rarely baptized with less than six to eight weeks of study. These deliberate, unpressured approaches emphasize full implementation of required life changes before baptism and help prospective converts to “count the cost” of discipleship, with the sober recognition that parting ways is better for all parties than the baptism of unprepared converts.
I must be honest. Their approaches sound better and more Christlike than our Church's approach. I've noticed the same thing in the differences between these churches' approaches to education in less-developed countries and ours. They put the resources into building schools. The Adventists have over 7,804 low-cost, but extremely effective schools throughout the world. We think that we can do this with BYU Pathway Worldwide, but honestly, the results just aren't there. Until we have teachers in the local communities we will NEVER be that effective. Our graduation rates with Pathway students are in the single digits.

The saddest part is that ten years ago we had a highly motivated membership and plenty of funds and could have been a real force for good in the world. Today we have too much money and a not-too-particularly motivated membership and it feels like the window for the Church's influence for good is closing rapidly, all the hidden hundreds of billions of dollars be damned. And maybe that is the point. Instead of using the Lord's money to do good in the world, we buried our talents and didn't build the watchtower and now that money is damning us.

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Robin Hood
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Location: England

Re: Church Growth

Post by Robin Hood »

Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:25 pm I think we have all been noticing changes in Church growth. This professor's paper, The End of Growth? Fading Prospects for Latter-day Saint Expansion, examines what has been happening.

The analysis contrasting our Church's approach to missionary work with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist's approaches was particularly disheartening.
Contemporary Jehovah’s Witness and Seventh-day Adventist approaches to conversion have long utilized principles of “low-pressure selling” (Stark and Iannaccone 1997, 140). These groups have implemented more rigorous baptismal standards, baptized more converts, and achieved higher convert retention than the LDS Church. Jehovah’s Witnesses typically conduct baptisms only three times annually, and emphasize “a strong, rational basis underlying their wish [for baptism], rather than just emotion” and firm, demonstrated commitment to keeping one’s promises (Secaira 2016). Witness converts typically attend for six months to a year before baptism, and some longer. Seventh-day Adventists do not prescribe a specific period, but for decades have required “a radical change in the life” of prospective converts. Candidates must complete dedicated Bible study and receive approval of the local church board to safeguard from “unknown problems in a candidate’s life that should have been taken care of before baptism” (SDA 1981). Many prospective converts attend for months; the most enthusiastic are rarely baptized with less than six to eight weeks of study. These deliberate, unpressured approaches emphasize full implementation of required life changes before baptism and help prospective converts to “count the cost” of discipleship, with the sober recognition that parting ways is better for all parties than the baptism of unprepared converts.
I must be honest. Their approaches sound better and more Christlike than our Church's approach. I've noticed the same thing in the differences between these churches' approaches to education in less-developed countries and ours. They put the resources into building schools. The Adventists have over 7,804 low-cost, but extremely effective schools throughout the world. We think that we can do this with BYU Pathway Worldwide, but honestly, the results just aren't there. Until we have teachers in the local communities we will NEVER be that effective. Our graduation rates with Pathway students are in the single digits.

The saddest part is that ten years ago we had a highly motivated membership and plenty of funds and could have been a real force for good in the world. Today we have too much money and a not-too-particularly motivated membership and it feels like the window for the Church's influence for good is closing rapidly, all the hidden hundreds of billions of dollars be damned. And maybe that is the point. Instead of using the Lord's money to do good in the world, we buried our talents and didn't build the watchtower and now that money is damning us.
In the 1950's & '60's investigators had to wait 6 months to be baptised.
These days it's barely 6 minutes.

Mamabear
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Posts: 3351

Re: Church Growth

Post by Mamabear »

Robin Hood wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:55 pm
Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:25 pm I think we have all been noticing changes in Church growth. This professor's paper, The End of Growth? Fading Prospects for Latter-day Saint Expansion, examines what has been happening.

The analysis contrasting our Church's approach to missionary work with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist's approaches was particularly disheartening.
Contemporary Jehovah’s Witness and Seventh-day Adventist approaches to conversion have long utilized principles of “low-pressure selling” (Stark and Iannaccone 1997, 140). These groups have implemented more rigorous baptismal standards, baptized more converts, and achieved higher convert retention than the LDS Church. Jehovah’s Witnesses typically conduct baptisms only three times annually, and emphasize “a strong, rational basis underlying their wish [for baptism], rather than just emotion” and firm, demonstrated commitment to keeping one’s promises (Secaira 2016). Witness converts typically attend for six months to a year before baptism, and some longer. Seventh-day Adventists do not prescribe a specific period, but for decades have required “a radical change in the life” of prospective converts. Candidates must complete dedicated Bible study and receive approval of the local church board to safeguard from “unknown problems in a candidate’s life that should have been taken care of before baptism” (SDA 1981). Many prospective converts attend for months; the most enthusiastic are rarely baptized with less than six to eight weeks of study. These deliberate, unpressured approaches emphasize full implementation of required life changes before baptism and help prospective converts to “count the cost” of discipleship, with the sober recognition that parting ways is better for all parties than the baptism of unprepared converts.
I must be honest. Their approaches sound better and more Christlike than our Church's approach. I've noticed the same thing in the differences between these churches' approaches to education in less-developed countries and ours. They put the resources into building schools. The Adventists have over 7,804 low-cost, but extremely effective schools throughout the world. We think that we can do this with BYU Pathway Worldwide, but honestly, the results just aren't there. Until we have teachers in the local communities we will NEVER be that effective. Our graduation rates with Pathway students are in the single digits.

The saddest part is that ten years ago we had a highly motivated membership and plenty of funds and could have been a real force for good in the world. Today we have too much money and a not-too-particularly motivated membership and it feels like the window for the Church's influence for good is closing rapidly, all the hidden hundreds of billions of dollars be damned. And maybe that is the point. Instead of using the Lord's money to do good in the world, we buried our talents and didn't build the watchtower and now that money is damning us.
In the 1950's & '60's investigators had to wait 6 months to be baptised.
These days it's barely 6 minutes.
Lol. Actually 6 minutes may be the norm. These days though it’s to get people to join a money making organization whereas in the scriptures it was not so.

“And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.“
Acts 8:34-39

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JLHPROF
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Posts: 1087

Re: Church Growth

Post by JLHPROF »

Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?

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Subcomandante
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Posts: 4410

Re: Church Growth

Post by Subcomandante »

Robin Hood wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:55 pm
Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:25 pm I think we have all been noticing changes in Church growth. This professor's paper, The End of Growth? Fading Prospects for Latter-day Saint Expansion, examines what has been happening.

The analysis contrasting our Church's approach to missionary work with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist's approaches was particularly disheartening.
Contemporary Jehovah’s Witness and Seventh-day Adventist approaches to conversion have long utilized principles of “low-pressure selling” (Stark and Iannaccone 1997, 140). These groups have implemented more rigorous baptismal standards, baptized more converts, and achieved higher convert retention than the LDS Church. Jehovah’s Witnesses typically conduct baptisms only three times annually, and emphasize “a strong, rational basis underlying their wish [for baptism], rather than just emotion” and firm, demonstrated commitment to keeping one’s promises (Secaira 2016). Witness converts typically attend for six months to a year before baptism, and some longer. Seventh-day Adventists do not prescribe a specific period, but for decades have required “a radical change in the life” of prospective converts. Candidates must complete dedicated Bible study and receive approval of the local church board to safeguard from “unknown problems in a candidate’s life that should have been taken care of before baptism” (SDA 1981). Many prospective converts attend for months; the most enthusiastic are rarely baptized with less than six to eight weeks of study. These deliberate, unpressured approaches emphasize full implementation of required life changes before baptism and help prospective converts to “count the cost” of discipleship, with the sober recognition that parting ways is better for all parties than the baptism of unprepared converts.
I must be honest. Their approaches sound better and more Christlike than our Church's approach. I've noticed the same thing in the differences between these churches' approaches to education in less-developed countries and ours. They put the resources into building schools. The Adventists have over 7,804 low-cost, but extremely effective schools throughout the world. We think that we can do this with BYU Pathway Worldwide, but honestly, the results just aren't there. Until we have teachers in the local communities we will NEVER be that effective. Our graduation rates with Pathway students are in the single digits.

The saddest part is that ten years ago we had a highly motivated membership and plenty of funds and could have been a real force for good in the world. Today we have too much money and a not-too-particularly motivated membership and it feels like the window for the Church's influence for good is closing rapidly, all the hidden hundreds of billions of dollars be damned. And maybe that is the point. Instead of using the Lord's money to do good in the world, we buried our talents and didn't build the watchtower and now that money is damning us.
In the 1950's & '60's investigators had to wait 6 months to be baptised.
These days it's barely 6 minutes.
Are things in the UK that desperate?

I remember in Mexico during my mission an investigator had to attend church three times before baptism. Now it's six. But there have been marked improvements in activity and several new congregations have been going up all over the country.

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Subcomandante
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Posts: 4410

Re: Church Growth

Post by Subcomandante »

JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?
The growth is checkered in many areas. In Africa they are still going quite strong. Latin America, long stagnant, seems to be improving. Europe right now is a basket case.

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JLHPROF
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Posts: 1087

Re: Church Growth

Post by JLHPROF »

Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:16 pm
JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?
The growth is checkered in many areas. In Africa they are still going quite strong. Latin America, long stagnant, seems to be improving. Europe right now is a basket case.
All true.
Does anyone think this is indicative of the gospel work, condition of the Church, or truth claims in any way?

Atrasado
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Posts: 1768

Re: Church Growth

Post by Atrasado »

It's not the lack of growth, per se, that bothers me. It's the lack of fruit.

blitzinstripes
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Posts: 2294

Re: Church Growth

Post by blitzinstripes »

JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:21 pm
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:16 pm
JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?
The growth is checkered in many areas. In Africa they are still going quite strong. Latin America, long stagnant, seems to be improving. Europe right now is a basket case.
All true.
Does anyone think this is indicative of the gospel work, condition of the Church, or truth claims in any way?
I think it's is a strong indicator that the times of the gentiles is......just about UP. Doesn't bode well for the church, or the gentile nations of the earth who have BOTH rejected the gospel.

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ransomme
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Posts: 4013

Re: Church Growth

Post by ransomme »

Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:16 pm
JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?
The growth is checkered in many areas. In Africa they are still going quite strong. Latin America, long stagnant, seems to be improving. Europe right now is a basket case.
The vast majority of new converts here in the Nordics are foreign immigrants.

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HereWeGo
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Posts: 1220

Re: Church Growth

Post by HereWeGo »

Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:16 pm
JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?
The growth is checkered in many areas. In Africa they are still going quite strong. Latin America, long stagnant, seems to be improving. Europe right now is a basket case.
Europe was a basket case when I was a missionary there in the 1970s.

Letfreedumbring
captain of 100
Posts: 267

Re: Church Growth

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:25 pm
The saddest part is that ten years ago we had a highly motivated membership and plenty of funds and could have been a real force for good in the world. Today we have too much money and a not-too-particularly motivated membership and it feels like the window for the Church's influence for good is closing rapidly, all the hidden hundreds of billions of dollars be damned. And maybe that is the point. Instead of using the Lord's money to do good in the world, we buried our talents and didn't build the watchtower and now that money is damning us.
It is only damning the church and its leaders.

They will personally be held accountable for burying the truth of events as they really happened and for the financial gaming of donations intended for the Lord. As well as all the untold damage and possible deaths they have caused by their deceits or manipulation if there be any.

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Robin Hood
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Location: England

Re: Church Growth

Post by Robin Hood »

Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:14 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:55 pm
Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 3:25 pm I think we have all been noticing changes in Church growth. This professor's paper, The End of Growth? Fading Prospects for Latter-day Saint Expansion, examines what has been happening.

The analysis contrasting our Church's approach to missionary work with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist's approaches was particularly disheartening.
Contemporary Jehovah’s Witness and Seventh-day Adventist approaches to conversion have long utilized principles of “low-pressure selling” (Stark and Iannaccone 1997, 140). These groups have implemented more rigorous baptismal standards, baptized more converts, and achieved higher convert retention than the LDS Church. Jehovah’s Witnesses typically conduct baptisms only three times annually, and emphasize “a strong, rational basis underlying their wish [for baptism], rather than just emotion” and firm, demonstrated commitment to keeping one’s promises (Secaira 2016). Witness converts typically attend for six months to a year before baptism, and some longer. Seventh-day Adventists do not prescribe a specific period, but for decades have required “a radical change in the life” of prospective converts. Candidates must complete dedicated Bible study and receive approval of the local church board to safeguard from “unknown problems in a candidate’s life that should have been taken care of before baptism” (SDA 1981). Many prospective converts attend for months; the most enthusiastic are rarely baptized with less than six to eight weeks of study. These deliberate, unpressured approaches emphasize full implementation of required life changes before baptism and help prospective converts to “count the cost” of discipleship, with the sober recognition that parting ways is better for all parties than the baptism of unprepared converts.
I must be honest. Their approaches sound better and more Christlike than our Church's approach. I've noticed the same thing in the differences between these churches' approaches to education in less-developed countries and ours. They put the resources into building schools. The Adventists have over 7,804 low-cost, but extremely effective schools throughout the world. We think that we can do this with BYU Pathway Worldwide, but honestly, the results just aren't there. Until we have teachers in the local communities we will NEVER be that effective. Our graduation rates with Pathway students are in the single digits.

The saddest part is that ten years ago we had a highly motivated membership and plenty of funds and could have been a real force for good in the world. Today we have too much money and a not-too-particularly motivated membership and it feels like the window for the Church's influence for good is closing rapidly, all the hidden hundreds of billions of dollars be damned. And maybe that is the point. Instead of using the Lord's money to do good in the world, we buried our talents and didn't build the watchtower and now that money is damning us.
In the 1950's & '60's investigators had to wait 6 months to be baptised.
These days it's barely 6 minutes.
Are things in the UK that desperate?

I remember in Mexico during my mission an investigator had to attend church three times before baptism. Now it's six. But there have been marked improvements in activity and several new congregations have been going up all over the country.
They have to attend once I believe.

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Wolfwoman
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Posts: 2265

Re: Church Growth

Post by Wolfwoman »

That is interesting.
I can see how their stronger requirements for baptism would lead to more retention of new converts. Not sure how it would affect growth though.
I remember as a missionary we invited people to be baptized on the first or second discussion. If they accepted, then it was a lot left to learn in the remaining discussions and maybe unpleasant surprises. Quitting smoking as a requirement for baptism, for example, or paying tithing. Even our best investigators had a hard time making it to church on Sunday. I guess it’s hard to get up early on Sunday and get to church when you’re not used to it. I think they were required to come to church twice before being baptized. LOL when I came back from my mission I was called on several ward/stake missions. Ambitious missionaries (typically sisters) would go over to the investigator’s house on Sunday morning and knock on their bedroom window and other such things to try to get them up and ready for church. :lol: :lol: Even back then I felt that at some point you’ve got to let them have their agency and choose for themselves to come to church.

I can see why the church has less requirements to be baptized too. If you read the doctrine of Christ, it’s pretty straightforward. Have faith/Believe in Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized. Not being a priest myself, I’m not sure how I would check to see if someone was actually repentant. Maybe if they confessed their sins to you and expressed a desire to be better? I’d say the church is closer to doing it the right way (as long as it’s not baseball baptisms) than those other churches. In fact I think our church has too many requirements for baptism. Read the doctrine of Christ. There are the requirements. Now we’ve added things in like quit smoking. I have to say it’s a big regret of mine that a woman, one of our best investigators, couldn’t get baptized because she couldn’t quit smoking. Not being a priesthood holder, or the person in charge of such requirements, I don’t take the full blame for that. But I know we did allow one man to be baptized who had quit smoking for maybe 6 hours. :lol: Somehow it was fudged. But then the ward required him to quit “again” to be confirmed, and as far as I know he was never confirmed because he couldn’t quit. He then died of cancer a couple of years later. I’m not sure what the church does with such records that are in limbo. Surely they have a record of his baptism. But if they don’t have a record of his confirmation then what do they do with it?!
His baptism was literally like the first or second week of my mission. So I was just going along with what my senior companion did.

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Cruiserdude
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Posts: 5359
Location: SEKS

Re: Church Growth

Post by Cruiserdude »

Wolfwoman wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 3:20 am That is interesting.
I can see how their stronger requirements for baptism would lead to more retention of new converts. Not sure how it would affect growth though.
I remember as a missionary we invited people to be baptized on the first or second discussion. If they accepted, then it was a lot left to learn in the remaining discussions and maybe unpleasant surprises. Quitting smoking as a requirement for baptism, for example, or paying tithing. Even our best investigators had a hard time making it to church on Sunday. I guess it’s hard to get up early on Sunday and get to church when you’re not used to it. I think they were required to come to church twice before being baptized. LOL when I came back from my mission I was called on several ward/stake missions. Ambitious missionaries (typically sisters) would go over to the investigator’s house on Sunday morning and knock on their bedroom window and other such things to try to get them up and ready for church. :lol: :lol: Even back then I felt that at some point you’ve got to let them have their agency and choose for themselves to come to church.

I can see why the church has less requirements to be baptized too. If you read the doctrine of Christ, it’s pretty straightforward. Have faith/Believe in Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized. Not being a priest myself, I’m not sure how I would check to see if someone was actually repentant. Maybe if they confessed their sins to you and expressed a desire to be better? I’d say the church is closer to doing it the right way (as long as it’s not baseball baptisms) than those other churches. In fact I think our church has too many requirements for baptism. Read the doctrine of Christ. There are the requirements. Now we’ve added things in like quit smoking. I have to say it’s a big regret of mine that a woman, one of our best investigators, couldn’t get baptized because she couldn’t quit smoking. Not being a priesthood holder, or the person in charge of such requirements, I don’t take the full blame for that. But I know we did allow one man to be baptized who had quit smoking for maybe 6 hours. :lol: Somehow it was fudged. But then the ward required him to quit “again” to be confirmed, and as far as I know he was never confirmed because he couldn’t quit. He then died of cancer a couple of years later. I’m not sure what the church does with such records that are in limbo. Surely they have a record of his baptism. But if they don’t have a record of his confirmation then what do they do with it?!
His baptism was literally like the first or second week of my mission. So I was just going along with what my senior companion did.
That sounds like South American missions in the 90s 😂😂

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Mindfields
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Posts: 1869
Location: Utah

Re: Church Growth

Post by Mindfields »

Wolfwoman wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 3:20 am That is interesting.
I can see how their stronger requirements for baptism would lead to more retention of new converts. Not sure how it would affect growth though.
I remember as a missionary we invited people to be baptized on the first or second discussion. If they accepted, then it was a lot left to learn in the remaining discussions and maybe unpleasant surprises. Quitting smoking as a requirement for baptism, for example, or paying tithing. Even our best investigators had a hard time making it to church on Sunday. I guess it’s hard to get up early on Sunday and get to church when you’re not used to it. I think they were required to come to church twice before being baptized. LOL when I came back from my mission I was called on several ward/stake missions. Ambitious missionaries (typically sisters) would go over to the investigator’s house on Sunday morning and knock on their bedroom window and other such things to try to get them up and ready for church. :lol: :lol: Even back then I felt that at some point you’ve got to let them have their agency and choose for themselves to come to church.

I can see why the church has less requirements to be baptized too. If you read the doctrine of Christ, it’s pretty straightforward. Have faith/Believe in Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized. Not being a priest myself, I’m not sure how I would check to see if someone was actually repentant. Maybe if they confessed their sins to you and expressed a desire to be better? I’d say the church is closer to doing it the right way (as long as it’s not baseball baptisms) than those other churches. In fact I think our church has too many requirements for baptism. Read the doctrine of Christ. There are the requirements. Now we’ve added things in like quit smoking. I have to say it’s a big regret of mine that a woman, one of our best investigators, couldn’t get baptized because she couldn’t quit smoking. Not being a priesthood holder, or the person in charge of such requirements, I don’t take the full blame for that. But I know we did allow one man to be baptized who had quit smoking for maybe 6 hours. :lol: Somehow it was fudged. But then the ward required him to quit “again” to be confirmed, and as far as I know he was never confirmed because he couldn’t quit. He then died of cancer a couple of years later. I’m not sure what the church does with such records that are in limbo. Surely they have a record of his baptism. But if they don’t have a record of his confirmation then what do they do with it?!
His baptism was literally like the first or second week of my mission. So I was just going along with what my senior companion did.
When BAPTISM is your goal and not conversion to Christ this makes perfect sense.

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Wolfwoman
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Posts: 2265

Re: Church Growth

Post by Wolfwoman »

Mindfields wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:26 am
Wolfwoman wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 3:20 am That is interesting.
I can see how their stronger requirements for baptism would lead to more retention of new converts. Not sure how it would affect growth though.
I remember as a missionary we invited people to be baptized on the first or second discussion. If they accepted, then it was a lot left to learn in the remaining discussions and maybe unpleasant surprises. Quitting smoking as a requirement for baptism, for example, or paying tithing. Even our best investigators had a hard time making it to church on Sunday. I guess it’s hard to get up early on Sunday and get to church when you’re not used to it. I think they were required to come to church twice before being baptized. LOL when I came back from my mission I was called on several ward/stake missions. Ambitious missionaries (typically sisters) would go over to the investigator’s house on Sunday morning and knock on their bedroom window and other such things to try to get them up and ready for church. :lol: :lol: Even back then I felt that at some point you’ve got to let them have their agency and choose for themselves to come to church.

I can see why the church has less requirements to be baptized too. If you read the doctrine of Christ, it’s pretty straightforward. Have faith/Believe in Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized. Not being a priest myself, I’m not sure how I would check to see if someone was actually repentant. Maybe if they confessed their sins to you and expressed a desire to be better? I’d say the church is closer to doing it the right way (as long as it’s not baseball baptisms) than those other churches. In fact I think our church has too many requirements for baptism. Read the doctrine of Christ. There are the requirements. Now we’ve added things in like quit smoking. I have to say it’s a big regret of mine that a woman, one of our best investigators, couldn’t get baptized because she couldn’t quit smoking. Not being a priesthood holder, or the person in charge of such requirements, I don’t take the full blame for that. But I know we did allow one man to be baptized who had quit smoking for maybe 6 hours. :lol: Somehow it was fudged. But then the ward required him to quit “again” to be confirmed, and as far as I know he was never confirmed because he couldn’t quit. He then died of cancer a couple of years later. I’m not sure what the church does with such records that are in limbo. Surely they have a record of his baptism. But if they don’t have a record of his confirmation then what do they do with it?!
His baptism was literally like the first or second week of my mission. So I was just going along with what my senior companion did.
When BAPTISM is your goal and not conversion to Christ this makes perfect sense.
Maybe, maybe not. If that is the case, why require people to quit smoking? They could have had more baptisms if they dropped that requirement. (Maybe they’ll drop it in the future?!)

CuriousThinker
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Re: Church Growth

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I know someone who is on the strengthening the members committee. They are very vigilant on defending the church all the time and come across as pretty rude sometimes, even though I am sure they feel justified in doing so. Someone questioned them on the church not having much growth and they said that was all prophesied. But it was also touted as proof just a few years ago that the church was true because it is growing so fast. So, which is it? Both lack of growth and growth cannot be fulfilled at the same time. If we look at growth for being the reason the church is true, then apparently other faiths are true and ours isn't, because other churches are growing faster.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Church Growth

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CuriousThinker wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 10:46 am I know someone who is on the strengthening the members committee. They are very vigilant on defending the church all the time and come across as pretty rude sometimes, even though I am sure they feel justified in doing so. Someone questioned them on the church not having much growth and they said that was all prophesied. But it was also touted as proof just a few years ago that the church was true because it is growing so fast. So, which is it? Both lack of growth and growth cannot be fulfilled at the same time. If we look at growth for being the reason the church is true, then apparently other faiths are true and ours isn't, because other churches are growing faster.
By your description of the SMC people above, it looks like there may be a few of them who post here frequently. :)

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Church Growth

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HereWeGo wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 11:59 am
CuriousThinker wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 10:46 am I know someone who is on the strengthening the members committee. They are very vigilant on defending the church all the time and come across as pretty rude sometimes, even though I am sure they feel justified in doing so. Someone questioned them on the church not having much growth and they said that was all prophesied. But it was also touted as proof just a few years ago that the church was true because it is growing so fast. So, which is it? Both lack of growth and growth cannot be fulfilled at the same time. If we look at growth for being the reason the church is true, then apparently other faiths are true and ours isn't, because other churches are growing faster.
By your description of the SMC people above, it looks like there may be a few of them who post here frequently. :)
I think one referred to me as a pidgin.

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This link: search.php?keywords=SSPS will add this post to others like it.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Church Growth

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Leaders of our Church are most all corrupt I am truly sorry to say.

...

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Re: Church Growth

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I can second what Robin Hood says above. They practically haul people off the street here and dunk 'em. Have to have all the discussions and an interview. That's about it.

Some folk can't attend Sundays due to work commitment.

We were getting a lot of baptisms in our stake pre-lockdowns. That is down to a fraction now. A lot of foreigners, mentally ill/lonely people, various transients/students. I'm not saying this makes them bad people necessarily, but it does make for temporary converts and a lot of work. I'm probably nearest the middle category myself!!!

The golden contact, i.e. an investigator with tonnes of kids barely exists here. Occasionally spouses and significant others get baptised. Our nearest to that recently was an African immigrant and his family. He has been in and out of the mental hospital since baptism a few months ago and I've only spotted the family once or twice.

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Niemand
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Re: Church Growth

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ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:32 pm
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:16 pm
JLHPROF wrote: December 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm Does anyone find the level of growth to be significant?
The Church probably made it an issue by constantly touting their exponential growth for a while.
Now that it's slowed and a measurable chunk have apostatized critics have latched onto the lack of growth.

Do either actually mean anything in the grand scheme?
There are prophecies of growth throughout the whole earth. There are prophecies of a falling away leaving a small faithful core. Isn't it just following the expectations?
The growth is checkered in many areas. In Africa they are still going quite strong. Latin America, long stagnant, seems to be improving. Europe right now is a basket case.
The vast majority of new converts here in the Nordics are foreign immigrants.
Seems to be the main area of population growth in general there... as with here. The natives are more interested in promiscuity, abortion and self-righteousness than raising families.

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Re: Church Growth

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Mindfields wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:26 amWhen BAPTISM is your goal and not conversion to Christ this makes perfect sense.
My impression is that # of baptisms is more the goal - both locally and at the tip top of the pyramid hierarchy. I’m probably not the only one sensing this, & maybe that influences #’s negatively.

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Re: Church Growth

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Atrasado wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:02 pm It's not the lack of growth, per se, that bothers me. It's the lack of fruit.
Amen.

The way I see it is a series of steps - like Fowler’s stages of faith. Maybe many have to go through the dogmatic religious stage for a foundation before they question it and then build better faith that doesn’t rely so much on people.

From a certain perspective, church & proselytizing is like a company recruiting and training new employees. Companies who don’t do any or little training tend to have high turn-over. Companies who train well and even find ways to extrinsically & intrinsically motivate new employees not only retain them but also get better “fruit” or work/results from them.

Ironically the church IS run like a business in many ways EXCEPT this. They took out all the incentives - the fun - & turned it into a multi-billion dollar company who’s CEO’s are clueless about the little guys - which make up the bulk of the religious corporation. On top of that de-incentivizing, they slap on cultish king-like insistence on prioritizing the CEO’s above all. Sane people slowly back away from this insanity, even if they took the bate initially.

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