LDS Freedom Forum

Serragon wrote: ↑November 28th, 2022, 5:43 pm It is the keystone. Except for those disavowed parts. Luckily, we have explained that we actually don't know what the curse was even though Nephi told us very clearly. It is so nice that continuing revelation means that any previous prophet, like Nephi, can be thrown under the bus whenever necessary.

And it is even nicer to no longer know in the present why people believed or acted as they did.

We don't know what the curse was.

We don't know that the Cain theory was ever taught as doctrine because an actual revelation was never found. Never mind that that same principle invalidates nearly everything being done today. And also never mind that ever prophet from Young to Kimball believed it to be eternal, unchangeable doctrine.

We don't know why so many prophets were offending God constantly by using a nickname for the church.

We don't know why previous prophets called homosexuality an abomination.

There seem to be many things no longer know that we used to know. Strange for a church led by 15 people who proclaim themselves as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

logonbump wrote: ↑November 29th, 2022, 6:26 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑November 28th, 2022, 5:43 pm It is the keystone. Except for those disavowed parts. Luckily, we have explained that we actually don't know what the curse was even though Nephi told us very clearly. It is so nice that continuing revelation means that any previous prophet, like Nephi, can be thrown under the bus whenever necessary.

And it is even nicer to no longer know in the present why people believed or acted as they did.

We don't know what the curse was.

We don't know that the Cain theory was ever taught as doctrine because an actual revelation was never found. Never mind that that same principle invalidates nearly everything being done today. And also never mind that ever prophet from Young to Kimball believed it to be eternal, unchangeable doctrine.

We don't know why so many prophets were offending God constantly by using a nickname for the church.

We don't know why previous prophets called homosexuality an abomination.

There seem to be many things no longer know that we used to know. Strange for a church led by 15 people who proclaim themselves as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

It should be noted, this knowledge is the knowledge of God- like knowing who He is and living out the knowledge of who He is, not of just memorizing or "knowing" things.

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Yeah, they certainly have VERY VERY dubious origins - especially the tithing one.

some interesting thoughts

John Tavner wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 8:42 am

logonbump wrote: ↑November 29th, 2022, 6:26 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑November 28th, 2022, 5:43 pm It is the keystone. Except for those disavowed parts. Luckily, we have explained that we actually don't know what the curse was even though Nephi told us very clearly. It is so nice that continuing revelation means that any previous prophet, like Nephi, can be thrown under the bus whenever necessary.

And it is even nicer to no longer know in the present why people believed or acted as they did.

We don't know what the curse was.

We don't know that the Cain theory was ever taught as doctrine because an actual revelation was never found. Never mind that that same principle invalidates nearly everything being done today. And also never mind that ever prophet from Young to Kimball believed it to be eternal, unchangeable doctrine.

We don't know why so many prophets were offending God constantly by using a nickname for the church.

We don't know why previous prophets called homosexuality an abomination.

There seem to be many things no longer know that we used to know. Strange for a church led by 15 people who proclaim themselves as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

It should be noted, this knowledge is the knowledge of God- like knowing who He is and living out the knowledge of who He is, not of just memorizing or "knowing" things.

D&C 109
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;
8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

Here scriptures are not specified, nor theology; rather learning by faith is. We can be damned and destroyed for not knowing what the hell is going on.

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Fakery was prevalent from the get go as per the pious fraud postulate.

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Curious why you deleted my name from my post you tagged?

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd

I would love to see your sources on my fake news….

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:25 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Curious why you deleted my name from my post you tagged?

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd

I would love to see your sources on my fake news….

Nothing nefarious I assure you.

Snow claiming to see Jesus. Not my work. (I'll address the tithing fake news shortly)

These comments are based on John P. Hatch’s article in the Journal of Mormon History, 2016, Volume 42, Number 3: From Prayer to Visitation: Reexamining Lorenzo Snow’s Vision of Jesus Christ in the Salt Lake Temple.

In 1933 a small article, not significant enough to be included in the table of contents, was printed in the Improvement Era magazine. The article, which claimed that President Lorenzo Snow had been visited in person by Jesus Christ in the Salt Lake temple was printed 35 years after the fact, and it went mostly unnoticed at the time. It would take decades for this piece of Mormon folklore to snowball into the faith-affirming story that is so familiar to Latter-Day Saints today.

The entire historical record of this story begins and ends with one man, LeRoi Snow, son of Lorenzo’s ninth wife Sarah Minnie Jensen. LeRoi, one of over 40 children born to Lorenzo Snow and his wives, was born when snow was 62. It wasn't until decades after the fact that LeRoi penned the first and only account, either public or private, of this amazing visitation. Get that? The ONLY account.

Although he is our sole source of President Snow’s face-to-face visit with Jesus, LeRoi never claimed to have direct knowledge of the event, nor did any of Lorenzo’s other children or wives. LeRoi’s source was his niece, Allie Pond, who was a granddaughter of Lorenzo. Allie was apparently the only person with whom Lorenzo had shared his wondrous story. Unfortunately Allie left no written record of what her grandfather had actually said to her. Although the story as we read it is told in first person and with great detail, we have only LeRoi’s 3rd-hand account, decades after the fact, as filtered through Allie’s personal recollections much later in her life.

LeRoi supported his story with claims that the miraculous event was also confirmed by three men: President Heber J. Grant, Anthon H. Lund, and Arthur Winter. LeRoi claims that these men confirmed Allie’s story after LeRoi presented it at an MIA conference in 1919. Unfortunately, there is no record that anyone ever acknowledged the story and reasonable evidence that no one did.

First, we have the minutes from the Quorum of the Twelve meeting where Lorenzo himself relates the story of what happened that night. Lorenzo says that he knelt in prayer for guidance about whether he should reconstitute the First Presidency after President Woodruff’s death. The minutes say, “His prayer was answered, the Lord manifesting unto him clearly what he should do...In accordance with the light given me, I now present to you the name of Geo. Q. Cannon as my first counselor, and of Joseph F. Smith as my second counselor.” (Journal History, September 13, 1898, 4). So no visitation here. This sounds more like the type of inspiration a bishop receives when he names his counselors. President Snow died three years later and not once in those three years did anyone ever mention in any way that he claimed to have been visited by Jesus in the temple. None of the apostles or presidency members, nor any family or associates of President Snow mentioned it in their journals. It was not mentioned in his eulogy or any histories or remembrances of him up to that time.

So what do the other proposed witnesses say about this event? There is no record that LeRoi snow played any part in the MAI conference in which he says his story was confirmed, apart from passing the sacrament. Just seven years after the supposed MIA conference, President Grant was asked in a letter which church leaders had actually had been visited personally by Jesus Christ. Grant responded, “I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” (First Presidency Letterpress Copybooks, Vol. 72)

LeRoi claims he met with Anthon H. Lund and Arthur Winter “a few days” after the MIA conference and they confirmed that they had heard President Snow tell the story of his visit. Unfortunately there is no mention of this visit in LeRoi’s diary or anywhere else. Winter had been President Snow’s secretary. He was aware of Lorenzo’s prayer and inspiration about the formation of his presidency but never recorded anything about a visitation. (Winter Diaries 1989-1899)

So what really happened? Allie Pond seems to have believed that her Grandfather saw Jesus in person. Apparently she told this to her uncle LeRoi. Pond’s husband confirmed that she had told the story frequently in her later years, which was when LeRoi heard it and apparently became very excited at the prospect. No one knows what Snow actually told his granddaughter. What if Lorenzo had said, “I could imagine the savior standing before me…” or “I dreamed I saw the Lord…”? It is easy to see how Allie might overlook or fail to remember that part of the story. Or did Lorenzo simply tell her about the inspired feelings he received that night in the temple and she filled in the details? Or was it LeRoi who introduced the details of a physical visitation, intentionally or unintentionally, in the years before he wrote the story down? Based on his distorted recollection about the other purported witnesses, it is obvious that LeRoi was taking great liberties in his enthusiasm to make this an actual event in the minds of church members, as I’m sure it was for him.

logonbump wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 10:18 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 8:42 am

logonbump wrote: ↑November 29th, 2022, 6:26 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑November 28th, 2022, 5:43 pm It is the keystone. Except for those disavowed parts. Luckily, we have explained that we actually don't know what the curse was even though Nephi told us very clearly. It is so nice that continuing revelation means that any previous prophet, like Nephi, can be thrown under the bus whenever necessary.

And it is even nicer to no longer know in the present why people believed or acted as they did.

We don't know what the curse was.

We don't know that the Cain theory was ever taught as doctrine because an actual revelation was never found. Never mind that that same principle invalidates nearly everything being done today. And also never mind that ever prophet from Young to Kimball believed it to be eternal, unchangeable doctrine.

We don't know why so many prophets were offending God constantly by using a nickname for the church.

We don't know why previous prophets called homosexuality an abomination.

There seem to be many things no longer know that we used to know. Strange for a church led by 15 people who proclaim themselves as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

It should be noted, this knowledge is the knowledge of God- like knowing who He is and living out the knowledge of who He is, not of just memorizing or "knowing" things.

D&C 109
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;
8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

Here scriptures are not specified, nor theology; rather learning by faith is. We can be damned and destroyed for not knowing what the hell is going on.

You can't take one verse and extrapolate on it without context. Read the rest of the chapter. This is about the Lord's house. They were learning Hebrew, and germanic languages and studying about the scriptures - It all has to do with knowledge of GOd and udnerstanding His Word, it isn't about knowing about tectonic plates.

I mean the next verses explicitly say what for:: 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;

18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:25 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Curious why you deleted my name from my post you tagged?

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd

I would love to see your sources on my fake news….

According to a major subplot in the widely seen BYU-produced movie
The Windows of Heaven, during his May 1899 visit to St. George, President
Snow also prophesied that if those present would from that day onward faithfully
pay a full and honest tithing, the Lord would open the literal windows
of heaven, send down rain upon the dry, drought-stricken soil of Southern
Utah; the rivers and ditches would be filled, and the St. George Saints would
yet reap a bounteous harvest that very year. The justification for such a
dramatic promise or prophecy is found in a few articles written some
thirty-five to forty years later by LeRoi Snow about President Snow’s St.
Scene from the motion picture,
However, contemporary records do not corroborate any such
utterance by President Snow, and historical evidence indicates otherwise. The
1899 year-end harvest was very poor, and the locals sustained heavy livestock
losses. Furthermore, although it rained intermittently in Southern Utah for the
next few years, it was not until 1902 that enough precipitation discernibly fell
to break the drought.30
In March 1900, ten months after President Snow’s visit to St George,
when he learned that one of the presidents of the Seventy had been assigned to
attend the St. George Stake conference, Snow stated that he desired that one of
the Twelve also go, whereupon Francis R. Lyman expressed his willingness to
accept the invitation. Still reeling from lack of moisture, Snow told Lyman to
“tell the people not to waver in their faith, but to pray fervently to the Lord for
the necessary moisture, and he believed that the Lord would hear their prayers
inasmuch as they strictly adhered to the law of tithing.”31 In May 1901, two
years after Snow’s landmark address, Rudger Clawson reported: “Pres. Snow
had promised the people of St. George country that, if they were faithful in
honoring the law of tithing and other commandments of God, they should be
visited by the early and latter rains. This promise had been literally fulfilled,
for a recent drought of some 5 years had been broken by copious rains.”32
These comments are the only known statements by Lorenzo Snow in which
he is reported to have promised the Saints “rain” for the faithful observance
of tithing.
As a consequence of President Snow’s unwavering determination,
complimented by the urging of his counselors, members of the Twelve, and
local leaders to teach tithing payment throughout the Church, there began to
be hopeful signs. Tithing revenues slowly increased and flowed into Church
accounts. However, the debt had been severe enough that repayment was
agonizingly slow and frustrating, but as the months passed, the increase in
tithing revenues enabled the Church to significantly reduce many of its largest
financial obligations.

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... lation.pdf

The church was heavily in debt at this time. This is nothing but pure manipulation of the members to cover the folly of the leaders.

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 10:00 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:25 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come.

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Curious why you deleted my name from my post you tagged?

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd

I would love to see your sources on my fake news….

According to a major subplot in the widely seen BYU-produced movie
The Windows of Heaven, during his May 1899 visit to St. George, President
Snow also prophesied that if those present would from that day onward faithfully
pay a full and honest tithing, the Lord would open the literal windows
of heaven, send down rain upon the dry, drought-stricken soil of Southern
Utah; the rivers and ditches would be filled, and the St. George Saints would
yet reap a bounteous harvest that very year. The justification for such a
dramatic promise or prophecy is found in a few articles written some
thirty-five to forty years later by LeRoi Snow about President Snow’s St.
Scene from the motion picture,
However, contemporary records do not corroborate any such
utterance by President Snow, and historical evidence indicates otherwise. The
1899 year-end harvest was very poor, and the locals sustained heavy livestock
losses. Furthermore, although it rained intermittently in Southern Utah for the
next few years, it was not until 1902 that enough precipitation discernibly fell
to break the drought.30
In March 1900, ten months after President Snow’s visit to St George,
when he learned that one of the presidents of the Seventy had been assigned to
attend the St. George Stake conference, Snow stated that he desired that one of
the Twelve also go, whereupon Francis R. Lyman expressed his willingness to
accept the invitation. Still reeling from lack of moisture, Snow told Lyman to
“tell the people not to waver in their faith, but to pray fervently to the Lord for
the necessary moisture, and he believed that the Lord would hear their prayers
inasmuch as they strictly adhered to the law of tithing.”31 In May 1901, two
years after Snow’s landmark address, Rudger Clawson reported: “Pres. Snow
had promised the people of St. George country that, if they were faithful in
honoring the law of tithing and other commandments of God, they should be
visited by the early and latter rains. This promise had been literally fulfilled,
for a recent drought of some 5 years had been broken by copious rains.”32
These comments are the only known statements by Lorenzo Snow in which
he is reported to have promised the Saints “rain” for the faithful observance
of tithing.
As a consequence of President Snow’s unwavering determination,
complimented by the urging of his counselors, members of the Twelve, and
local leaders to teach tithing payment throughout the Church, there began to
be hopeful signs. Tithing revenues slowly increased and flowed into Church
accounts. However, the debt had been severe enough that repayment was
agonizingly slow and frustrating, but as the months passed, the increase in
tithing revenues enabled the Church to significantly reduce many of its largest
financial obligations.

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... lation.pdf

The church was heavily in debt at this time. This is nothing but pure manipulation of the members to cover the folly of the leaders.

So his son and Percy Goddard are liars? Everyone forgot the truth in the 29 ish years that the first writing of the story by J. Percy Goddard, “A Prophet’s Promise and its Fulfillment,” The Juvenile Instructor 63, no. 7 (July 1928)

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 10:50 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 10:00 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:25 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 5:48 am

Both of these supposed miracles have been thoroughly debunked. Mormon fake news.

Curious why you deleted my name from my post you tagged?

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ontext=etd

I would love to see your sources on my fake news….

According to a major subplot in the widely seen BYU-produced movie
The Windows of Heaven, during his May 1899 visit to St. George, President
Snow also prophesied that if those present would from that day onward faithfully
pay a full and honest tithing, the Lord would open the literal windows
of heaven, send down rain upon the dry, drought-stricken soil of Southern
Utah; the rivers and ditches would be filled, and the St. George Saints would
yet reap a bounteous harvest that very year. The justification for such a
dramatic promise or prophecy is found in a few articles written some
thirty-five to forty years later by LeRoi Snow about President Snow’s St.
Scene from the motion picture,
However, contemporary records do not corroborate any such
utterance by President Snow, and historical evidence indicates otherwise. The
1899 year-end harvest was very poor, and the locals sustained heavy livestock
losses. Furthermore, although it rained intermittently in Southern Utah for the
next few years, it was not until 1902 that enough precipitation discernibly fell
to break the drought.30
In March 1900, ten months after President Snow’s visit to St George,
when he learned that one of the presidents of the Seventy had been assigned to
attend the St. George Stake conference, Snow stated that he desired that one of
the Twelve also go, whereupon Francis R. Lyman expressed his willingness to
accept the invitation. Still reeling from lack of moisture, Snow told Lyman to
“tell the people not to waver in their faith, but to pray fervently to the Lord for
the necessary moisture, and he believed that the Lord would hear their prayers
inasmuch as they strictly adhered to the law of tithing.”31 In May 1901, two
years after Snow’s landmark address, Rudger Clawson reported: “Pres. Snow
had promised the people of St. George country that, if they were faithful in
honoring the law of tithing and other commandments of God, they should be
visited by the early and latter rains. This promise had been literally fulfilled,
for a recent drought of some 5 years had been broken by copious rains.”32
These comments are the only known statements by Lorenzo Snow in which
he is reported to have promised the Saints “rain” for the faithful observance
of tithing.
As a consequence of President Snow’s unwavering determination,
complimented by the urging of his counselors, members of the Twelve, and
local leaders to teach tithing payment throughout the Church, there began to
be hopeful signs. Tithing revenues slowly increased and flowed into Church
accounts. However, the debt had been severe enough that repayment was
agonizingly slow and frustrating, but as the months passed, the increase in
tithing revenues enabled the Church to significantly reduce many of its largest
financial obligations.

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... lation.pdf

The church was heavily in debt at this time. This is nothing but pure manipulation of the members to cover the folly of the leaders.

So his son and Percy Goddard are liars? Everyone forgot the truth in the 29 ish years that the first writing of the story by J. Percy Goddard, “A Prophet’s Promise and its Fulfillment,” The Juvenile Instructor 63, no. 7 (July 1928)

Exaggerators perhaps.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:47 am

logonbump wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 10:18 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 8:42 am

logonbump wrote: ↑November 29th, 2022, 6:26 pm

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

It should be noted, this knowledge is the knowledge of God- like knowing who He is and living out the knowledge of who He is, not of just memorizing or "knowing" things.

D&C 109
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;
8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

Here scriptures are not specified, nor theology; rather learning by faith is. We can be damned and destroyed for not knowing what the hell is going on.

You can't take one verse and extrapolate on it without context. Read the rest of the chapter. This is about the Lord's house. They were learning Hebrew, and germanic languages and studying about the scriptures - It all has to do with knowledge of GOd and udnerstanding His Word, it isn't about knowing about tectonic plates.

I mean the next verses explicitly say what for:: 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;

18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;

You like that, John? Here's another one "without context":
But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation; it has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass, as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions; they cannot stand the fire at all; how many will be able to abide a celestial law and go through, and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say; as many are called but few are chosen

logonbump wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:44 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:47 am

logonbump wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 10:18 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 8:42 am

It should be noted, this knowledge is the knowledge of God- like knowing who He is and living out the knowledge of who He is, not of just memorizing or "knowing" things.

D&C 109
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;
8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

Here scriptures are not specified, nor theology; rather learning by faith is. We can be damned and destroyed for not knowing what the hell is going on.

You can't take one verse and extrapolate on it without context. Read the rest of the chapter. This is about the Lord's house. They were learning Hebrew, and germanic languages and studying about the scriptures - It all has to do with knowledge of GOd and udnerstanding His Word, it isn't about knowing about tectonic plates.

I mean the next verses explicitly say what for:: 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;

18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;

You like that, John? Here's another one "without context":
But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation; it has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass, as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions; they cannot stand the fire at all; how many will be able to abide a celestial law and go through, and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say; as many are called but few are chosen

Yep you did a good job on missing the context again of focusing on the "anything" and not focusing on the part where he says "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God," which is what the "anything" is in regards to. God really wants us to have knowledge of Him- because His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

As an FYI I'm not trying to fight you, just to increase understanding- though my motive with my last response (the one before this one) probably wasn't as pure as it should have been because though true, my response was more out of frustration towards that perspective than out of care for your well-being - so for my poor motive I apologize, but I 100% stand by my statements.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:48 pm

logonbump wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:44 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:47 am

logonbump wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 10:18 pm

D&C 109
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;
8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

Here scriptures are not specified, nor theology; rather learning by faith is. We can be damned and destroyed for not knowing what the hell is going on.

You can't take one verse and extrapolate on it without context. Read the rest of the chapter. This is about the Lord's house. They were learning Hebrew, and germanic languages and studying about the scriptures - It all has to do with knowledge of GOd and udnerstanding His Word, it isn't about knowing about tectonic plates.

I mean the next verses explicitly say what for:: 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;

18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;

You like that, John? Here's another one "without context":
But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation; it has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass, as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions; they cannot stand the fire at all; how many will be able to abide a celestial law and go through, and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say; as many are called but few are chosen

Yep you did a good job on missing the context again of focusing on the "anything" and not focusing on the part where he says "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God," which is what the "anything" is in regards to. God really wants us to have knowledge of Him- because His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

As an FYI I'm not trying to fight you, just to increase understanding- though my motive with my last response (the one before this one) probably wasn't as pure as it should have been because though true, my response was more out of frustration towards that perspective than out of care for your well-being - so for my poor motive I apologize, but I 100% stand by my statements.

Your focus on my inference towards knowledge in general is misleading. Especially the subject of scientific knowledge of tectonic plates. All truth is God's truth. This is His Earth. The truths therein are his and all things work according to his laws and use. Yes, the hardened "plates" bubble and ooze toward the edges. But we speculate when they subduct as though they are only going to ever do so slowly. As it says , "In the days of Peleg, the Earth was divided" Gen 10:25 and "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up" Gen 7:11-12
According to God's will, and as planned, he does move continents and break up the crust to release the waters trapped in rocks.
But that's just what the bible says.

logonbump wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 1:18 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:48 pm

logonbump wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 12:44 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:47 am

You can't take one verse and extrapolate on it without context. Read the rest of the chapter. This is about the Lord's house. They were learning Hebrew, and germanic languages and studying about the scriptures - It all has to do with knowledge of GOd and udnerstanding His Word, it isn't about knowing about tectonic plates.

I mean the next verses explicitly say what for:: 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;

18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;

You like that, John? Here's another one "without context":
But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation; it has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass, as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions; they cannot stand the fire at all; how many will be able to abide a celestial law and go through, and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say; as many are called but few are chosen

Yep you did a good job on missing the context again of focusing on the "anything" and not focusing on the part where he says "I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to receive the things of God," which is what the "anything" is in regards to. God really wants us to have knowledge of Him- because His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

As an FYI I'm not trying to fight you, just to increase understanding- though my motive with my last response (the one before this one) probably wasn't as pure as it should have been because though true, my response was more out of frustration towards that perspective than out of care for your well-being - so for my poor motive I apologize, but I 100% stand by my statements.

Your focus on my inference towards knowledge in general is misleading. Especially the subject of scientific knowledge of tectonic plates. All truth is God's truth. This is His Earth. The truths therein are his and all things work according to his laws and use. Yes, the hardened "plates" bubble and ooze toward the edges. But we speculate when they subduct as though they are only going to ever do so slowly. As it says , "In the days of Peleg, the Earth was divided" Gen 10:25 and "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up" Gen 7:11-12
According to God's will, and as planned, he does move continents and break up the crust to release the waters trapped in rocks.
But that's just what the bible says.

I'm confused. I just said it dealt with knowledge of God. I was just clarifying that it wasn't "ALL or ANY KNOWLEDGE" - it wasn't even really directed at you just in general, then you appeared to disagree with me saying that wasn't true and said it was "ANYTHING." I responded because it is the lack of the Knowledge of God that destroys people, not lack of knowledge of "the fountains of the great deep being broken up in the days of Peleg". His people aren't destroyed for not knowing the square root of 1964.
What was the context of that story? Was it because they had knowledge of the fountains of the great deep being broken up that saved them? Is the knowledge that the "earth was divided" saving your spiritual life? OR is it explaining all that happened, but that Noah had a relationship with God and through His seeking Him he was able to prepare , listening to the voice of God, because He knew who God was. You or I knowing about the shifting of the continents and bringing waters out of the rocks, won't save us - or will it be the knowledge of God and receiving revelation from Him as HE tells you to build and ark and be ready for what He is going to do. Was it man's knowledge that saved Noah? Or was it knowledge of God? I really don't know what you are arguing anymore. Noah just knew he needed to build an ark, because HE knew God. The point of this is that we need to know God. We need to repent and turn our hearts to Him. If you disagree with that, fine that is your choice, I shared something I thought was beneficial, if you decide to reject it, that is your choice. I hope you won't, because I believe it leads to us "not being destroyed" but I can not save you, that is for Christ alone and you getting to know Him.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood what was happening and you felt I was attacking you personally.

In my experience the Book of Mormon is only touted as token, because people believe their arm of flesh, I mean leader, who contradicts it.

This is a summary of many interactions I’ve personal had with people while sharing BoM verses.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2018/07/22/exce ... cept-that/