The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Joan7
captain of 100
Posts: 437
Contact:

The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Joan7 »

The new philosophy introduced in the 1981 talk "Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet" starts with these three:

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.


Those first three "fundamentals" entirely sever any connection to the Book of Mormon prophets, Bible Prophets, and the Prophet Joseph Smith. With that philosophy, the new leader is free to lead the flock wherever he desires, because there is no longer a "rock" foundation upon which God's church is supposed to stand.

It is really simple. Either the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, or it is not. According to that second man-made philosophy, it is not.

User avatar
ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4014

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by ransomme »

BoM > President of the Church

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1415

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Joan7 wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:25 pm The new philosophy introduced in the 1981 talk "Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet" starts with these three:

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.


Those first three "fundamentals" entirely sever any connection to the Book of Mormon prophets, Bible Prophets, and the Prophet Joseph Smith. With that philosophy, the new leader is free to lead the flock wherever he desires, because there is no longer a "rock" foundation upon which God's church is supposed to stand.

It is really simple. Either the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, or it is not. According to that second man-made philosophy, it is not.
"...and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Bronco73idi »

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

“Brigham Young, in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer and revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born “natural prophets” and seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Brigham Young] had not this gift naturally, yet he was an apostle and the President of the Church and kingdom of God on the earth; and all the keys of the holy priesthood and of revelation w[ere] sealed upon him, and the spirit and power of revelation was upon him daily.” [Diary of Wilford Woodruff, Feb 11, 1861; capitalization, punctuation, and spelling modernized]

Are we not all prophets?
Last edited by Bronco73idi on November 28th, 2022, 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Serragon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3444

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Serragon »

It is the keystone. Except for those disavowed parts. Luckily, we have explained that we actually don't know what the curse was even though Nephi told us very clearly. It is so nice that continuing revelation means that any previous prophet, like Nephi, can be thrown under the bus whenever necessary.

And it is even nicer to no longer know in the present why people believed or acted as they did.

We don't know what the curse was.

We don't know that the Cain theory was ever taught as doctrine because an actual revelation was never found. Never mind that that same principle invalidates nearly everything being done today. And also never mind that ever prophet from Young to Kimball believed it to be eternal, unchangeable doctrine.

We don't know why so many prophets were offending God constantly by using a nickname for the church.

We don't know why previous prophets called homosexuality an abomination.

There seem to be many things no longer know that we used to know. Strange for a church led by 15 people who proclaim themselves as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by JLHPROF »

False dichotomy.
Having a living prophet to receive the word of the Lord for His Church and people in their current circumstances is absolutely more important than scriptural records.
The Bible existed all down from the Apostles till Joseph entered the grove.
There is no salvation between the lids of any canon.

But the recorded words of God are vital benchmarks against which all revelation should be judged. Prophets don't get to ignore what God has already revealed.

A pox on both their houses. This either/or nonsense is not true. Both scripture and prophets are sent by the Lord to lead us. You don't get to prioritize scripture and decide you're your own prophet.
Likewise you don't get to ignore the word of God because a man tells you to.

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8960
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

50 50 half half of the church is legit, and the remainder is misinformation.

Fortunately there is MSTS. :)

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5868
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by TheDuke »

I guess I don't accept some talk some where sets doctrine or principles. Hence, I'm not sure the OP makes any sense. I guess we could find other talks to contradict, if we wanted to focus on talks as doctrine. I don't. Now some talks are different, but they are very rare. Not even sure who wrote the talk in the OP.

However, if things were running correctly, then the 3 points would be true. I mean that is what Samuel said and did with regard to both David and Saul (et al...). Moses reinterpreted everything taught from Abraham. Abraham retaught stuff handed down (seemingly incorrectly except for Melchizedek). Etc... Seems everyone (even Jesus) over wrote previous teachings with their own. Jesus went out of his way to show how the previous teachings were either being fulfilled or were fulfilled and no longer valid (or would be after his death) or were written (or understood) incorrectly.

Anyway, seems always the same order. However, if there is a concern it is that a bad prophet or leader can undo good things and replace them with errored teachings (King Noah, many of the ancient HPs, etc...)

Joan7
captain of 100
Posts: 437
Contact:

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Joan7 »

TheDuke wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:40 pm I guess I don't accept some talk some where sets doctrine or principles. Hence, I'm not sure the OP makes any sense. I guess we could find other talks to contradict, if we wanted to focus on talks as doctrine. I don't. Now some talks are different, but they are very rare. Not even sure who wrote the talk in the OP.

However, if things were running correctly, then the 3 points would be true. I mean that is what Samuel said and did with regard to both David and Saul (et al...). Moses reinterpreted everything taught from Abraham. Abraham retaught stuff handed down (seemingly incorrectly except for Melchizedek). Etc... Seems everyone (even Jesus) over wrote previous teachings with their own. Jesus went out of his way to show how the previous teachings were either being fulfilled or were fulfilled and no longer valid (or would be after his death) or were written (or understood) incorrectly.

Anyway, seems always the same order. However, if there is a concern it is that a bad prophet or leader can undo good things and replace them with errored teachings (King Noah, many of the ancient HPs, etc...)
The talk is from Ezra Taft Benson. It was the foundation of two or three Conference talks in 2010, and has been repeated often since then. Much of what is said in those meetings today, reflect that philosophy, the following the Prophet is more important than anything else.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5868
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by TheDuke »

still, ETB wasn't around in 2010, so quoting old talks in new talks and then claiming doctrine, isn't even something more than reaching. I agree that some LDS leaders do this, but always have.......... go way back to Samuel, you'll see the same thing. Context and balance is the only answer, taken any other way, it is extreme (for or against). IMO.

Joan7
captain of 100
Posts: 437
Contact:

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Joan7 »

TheDuke wrote: November 29th, 2022, 11:12 am still, ETB wasn't around in 2010, so quoting old talks in new talks and then claiming doctrine, isn't even something more than reaching. I agree that some LDS leaders do this, but always have.......... go way back to Samuel, you'll see the same thing. Context and balance is the only answer, taken any other way, it is extreme (for or against). IMO.
Are you actually claiming that since Benson was dead, when his talk was used in the 2010 General Conference, it is not doctrine!!!!???

You obviously aren't up to speed on the new doctrine that anything spoken at General Conference, by folks who are alive, is better than scripture.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5868
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by TheDuke »

I understand your point. I just disagree that you can truly find any statement of doctrine behind your claim. Sure, many LDS leaders make the claim in words, but never as doctrine. Show me one place where it is stated as doctrine other than just fluff? Sure RMN may claim some modern inspiration and throw BY, ETB and others under the bus, but it isn't in the name of LDS doctrine. It is fluff and opinion. If LDS read and listen to this stuff and just run with it, without seeing what is doctrine, then I suppose they truly deserve to be led astray by the slightest wind.

But making a claim in the OP that it is doctrine to toss things under the bus willy-nilly is IMO incorrect understanding of the actual doctrinal teachings. And BTW as I have stated, what all prophets before have done, but perhaps either more appropriately or were cleansed over the centuries of scriptural interpretations, i.e. the teachings that failed became apochraphal.

mtmom
captain of 100
Posts: 228

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by mtmom »

Bronco73idi wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:10 pm 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

“Brigham Young, in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer and revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born “natural prophets” and seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Brigham Young] had not this gift naturally, yet he was an apostle and the President of the Church and kingdom of God on the earth; and all the keys of the holy priesthood and of revelation w[ere] sealed upon him, and the spirit and power of revelation was upon him daily.” [Diary of Wilford Woodruff, Feb 11, 1861; capitalization, punctuation, and spelling modernized]

Are we not all prophets?
You see, Brigham Young was not a prophet. He (according to his own words) was a "good Yankee guesser".

mtpop
captain of 10
Posts: 40

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by mtpop »

Are we going to hear "thus sayeth the Lord" anymore or just hear fuzzy feel good stories?

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Also: "The prophet does not need to say 'Thus saith the Lord'"

... which is completely false.


I do give credit to President Benson for at the very least having the courage to publicly recognize that this is a conundrum that modern prophets have. I just think his conclusion to the conundrum is completely false, unscriptural, and undoctrinal.


The reason why is because these men simply do not have the ability to do so. Instead of seeking to remedy this and make it so that they can have this very fundamental prophetic fruit, they go about their day assuming that this is just the way it is now and there's just nothing that can be done about it.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Bronco73idi »

mtmom wrote: November 29th, 2022, 11:46 am
Bronco73idi wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:10 pm 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

“Brigham Young, in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer and revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born “natural prophets” and seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Brigham Young] had not this gift naturally, yet he was an apostle and the President of the Church and kingdom of God on the earth; and all the keys of the holy priesthood and of revelation w[ere] sealed upon him, and the spirit and power of revelation was upon him daily.” [Diary of Wilford Woodruff, Feb 11, 1861; capitalization, punctuation, and spelling modernized]

Are we not all prophets?
You see, Brigham Young was not a prophet. He (according to his own words) was a "good Yankee guesser".
That went over your head!

blitzinstripes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2294

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by blitzinstripes »

I think of our standard works as our "constitution". There may indeed (and have been many) be laws which are unconstitutional. Just as we should strive to ensure that our laws are governed by the constitution, modern church leaders should ensure that their policies and doctrine never fall out of harmony with the scriptures. Sadly, I believe we are seeing quite a few policies and even newer doctrines that are not scriptural.

User avatar
HereWeGo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1222

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by HereWeGo »

mtpop wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:02 pm Are we going to hear "thus sayeth the Lord" anymore or just hear fuzzy feel good stories?
The 15 know that they do not end up in the Lord's presence where he gives them a specific message to share. Claiming that the Lord gave them an in-person message when He didn't is the definition of Taking the Lord's name in vain. If they said "Thus Sayeth..." they would be taking the Lord's name in vain since he didn't give them specific words. They know that they only receive inspiration like the rest of us. No angelic visitations or anything like that (Oaks). They don't want to be in trouble for taking the Lord's name in vain. They receive inspiration through the spirit just like us.

mtmom
captain of 100
Posts: 228

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by mtmom »

Bronco73idi wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:40 pm
mtmom wrote: November 29th, 2022, 11:46 am
Bronco73idi wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:10 pm 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

“Brigham Young, in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer and revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born “natural prophets” and seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Brigham Young] had not this gift naturally, yet he was an apostle and the President of the Church and kingdom of God on the earth; and all the keys of the holy priesthood and of revelation w[ere] sealed upon him, and the spirit and power of revelation was upon him daily.” [Diary of Wilford Woodruff, Feb 11, 1861; capitalization, punctuation, and spelling modernized]

Are we not all prophets?
You see, Brigham Young was not a prophet. He (according to his own words) was a "good Yankee guesser".
That went over your head!
Actually it did not go over my head.
However our discussion about prophets reminded me of Brigham's statement about not claiming to be a prophet. What a statement! Hopefully as we seek to be God's children, we will not just seek to be "good Yankee guessers" instead.

mtpop
captain of 10
Posts: 40

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by mtpop »

HereWeGo wrote: November 29th, 2022, 1:35 pm
mtpop wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:02 pm Are we going to hear "thus sayeth the Lord" anymore or just hear fuzzy feel good stories?
The 15 know that they do not end up in the Lord's presence where he gives them a specific message to share. Claiming that the Lord gave them an in-person message when He didn't is the definition of Taking the Lord's name in vain. If they said "Thus Sayeth..." they would be taking the Lord's name in vain since he didn't give them specific words. They know that they only receive inspiration like the rest of us. No angelic visitations or anything like that (Oaks). They don't want to be in trouble for taking the Lord's name in vain. They receive inspiration through the spirit just like us.
In all of the standard works when God speaks to his people through a prophet it is proceeded by thus sayeth the Lord. So why not now? Are the heavens closed or has the Lord changed the way he works through a Prophet?

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Joan7 wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:25 pm The new philosophy introduced in the 1981
Erroneously introduced. President Kimball, the prophet at the time, chewed out ETB for this talk and made him apologize for giving it.

viewtopic.php?t=60602

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Shawn Henry »

JLHPROF wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:26 pm You don't get to prioritize scripture and decide you're your own prophet.
Actually, you do. Matter of fact, that's step number one in being an agent unto yourself. You alone are responsible for vetting everything you believe. There is no rubber stamp process that bypasses our responsibility.

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by Bronco73idi »

mtmom wrote: November 29th, 2022, 1:56 pm
Bronco73idi wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:40 pm
mtmom wrote: November 29th, 2022, 11:46 am
Bronco73idi wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:10 pm 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

“Brigham Young, in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer and revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born “natural prophets” and seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Brigham Young] had not this gift naturally, yet he was an apostle and the President of the Church and kingdom of God on the earth; and all the keys of the holy priesthood and of revelation w[ere] sealed upon him, and the spirit and power of revelation was upon him daily.” [Diary of Wilford Woodruff, Feb 11, 1861; capitalization, punctuation, and spelling modernized]

Are we not all prophets?
You see, Brigham Young was not a prophet. He (according to his own words) was a "good Yankee guesser".
That went over your head!
Actually it did not go over my head.
However our discussion about prophets reminded me of Brigham's statement about not claiming to be a prophet. What a statement! Hopefully as we seek to be God's children, we will not just seek to be "good Yankee guessers" instead.
Brigham Young gave a sermon in July of 1857, at which time Johnston’s Army was en route to Utah.

“Why I testify of these things is because they are revealed to me, and not to another for me. They were not revealed to Joseph Smith for me. He had the keys to get visions and revelations, dreams and manifestations, and the Holy Ghost for the people. Those keys were committed to him; and through that administration, blessed be the name of God, I have received the spirit of Christ Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy. Our testimony does not make this true, and the testimony of our enemies that it is not the kingdom of God does not make that true or false. The fact stands upon its own basis, and will continue so to stand, without any of the efforts of the children of men.”

Here is the quote you are referring to from the same sermon.

“I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser; and I guess that James Buchanan has ordered this Expedition to appease the wrath of the angry hounds who are howling around him.”

[Journal of Discourses 5:77].

Brigham Young taught all men are prophets.

Brigham Young was the 2nd servant in the lord’s parable of the talents (Kikkars). John Taylor was the 3rd servant. We have President Snow’s vision of the lord in the hallway of the temple as proof that Snow was a good man and saw the lord That vision also tells us that our Lord could not meet him in the Holy of Holies room as an official visit. So Snow went to St. George not knowing what to tell the saints about the drought. When he was at the pulpit the Holy Ghost let him know then that if the saints pay their tithing then the rains would come. This is how the church has been ran since and we all (non LDS included) can talk to the Father the same way, through his son.

blitzinstripes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2294

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by blitzinstripes »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:57 pm
Joan7 wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:25 pm The new philosophy introduced in the 1981
Erroneously introduced. President Kimball, the prophet at the time, chewed out ETB for this talk and made him apologize for giving it.

viewtopic.php?t=60602
Great thread link. Thank you. I almost replied to it till I saw the date. I hate to be THAT guy. 😁😁
But great dialogue in that thread and very thought provoking. I like that you stated that "follow the prophet" cannot be found in a word search of the scriptures. TBM's may be quite surprised just how many Mormon household "doctrines" do not exist in scripture.

User avatar
JLHPROF
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1087

Re: The Keystone of Our Religion ..... Or Not?

Post by JLHPROF »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 29th, 2022, 3:03 pm
JLHPROF wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:26 pm You don't get to prioritize scripture and decide you're your own prophet.
Actually, you do. Matter of fact, that's step number one in being an agent unto yourself. You alone are responsible for vetting everything you believe. There is no rubber stamp process that bypasses our responsibility.
You say agent, I say law.

Post Reply