Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Subcomandante wrote: November 28th, 2022, 2:25 pmIf so, this is the beginning of a good thing. Maybe we will finally get to clean house.
They are losing people at both ends of the spectrum. It won't be a "clean house" of just the most progressive/woke, but also truth seekers like us. The so-called extreme right and left.

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Moroni104
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am
Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:08 am
Letfreedumbring wrote: December 1st, 2022, 12:45 am The statements that started me questioning were:

1. Wallace (interview outside of main 60 minutes segment): Are you a prophet?
Hinckley: I am sustained as such

2. Hinckley April 2003, Saturday Morning Session, talk entitled Condition of the Church:

"I promise you that we will not put the Church in debt. We will strictly tailor the program to the tithing income and use these sacred funds for the purposes designated by the Lord.

I call attention to that which has received much notice in the local press. This is our decision to purchase the shopping mall property immediately to the south of Temple Square.

We feel we have a compelling responsibility to protect the environment of the Salt Lake Temple. The Church owns most of the ground on which this mall stands. The owners of the buildings have expressed a desire to sell. The property needs very extensive and expensive renovation. We have felt it imperative to do something to revitalize this area. But I wish to give the entire Church the assurance that tithing funds have not and will not be used to acquire this property. Nor will they be used in developing it for commercial purposes.

Funds for this have come and will come from those commercial entities owned by the Church. These resources, together with the earnings of invested reserve funds, will accommodate this program.

[City Creek happens in 2008, Billions spent and Let's Go Shopping Years Later - whistleblower reveals different story]

3. Hinckley: “Each of us has to face the matter – either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.” General Conference, April 2003, Saturday Morning Session, talk entitled Loyalty
Reserve funds are not tithing funds. I thought President Hinckley explained it well.
While cash is fungible, I agree. I think Pres. Hinckley's point is: 1) We don't want this neighborhood around the temple to become a terrible ghetto, and 2) we are not using new funds coming in, we have funds from past years that are being used as investments anyway; this mall has no place in our budget with regards to funds coming in--it is just part of an investment that we do with surplus funds.
Circular rationalization at its finest.
Not really.

The Church invests all kinds of surplus funds.

It is good they have surplus funds.

Also, since the very beginning, Joesph Smith, Brigham Young, etc., have been involved in banks, stores, hotels, railroads, etc. There really is nothing out of historical context of the Church for the Church to be making sure the mall by the temple did not dilapidate.

If you have a problem with the Church investing funds in things that are not Church buildings, you have had a problem with the Church from the very beginning.

If you have a problem with a leader making a distinction between incoming tithing funds and funds that are a surplus investment, then you have a problem with word choice.

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:07 pm
LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am
Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:08 am

Reserve funds are not tithing funds. I thought President Hinckley explained it well.
While cash is fungible, I agree. I think Pres. Hinckley's point is: 1) We don't want this neighborhood around the temple to become a terrible ghetto, and 2) we are not using new funds coming in, we have funds from past years that are being used as investments anyway; this mall has no place in our budget with regards to funds coming in--it is just part of an investment that we do with surplus funds.
Circular rationalization at its finest.
Not really.

The Church invests all kinds of surplus funds.

It is good they have surplus funds.

Also, since the very beginning, Joesph Smith, Brigham Young, etc., have been involved in banks, stores, hotels, railroads, etc. There really is nothing out of historical context of the Church for the Church to be making sure the mall by the temple did not dilapidate.

If you have a problem with the Church investing funds in things that are not Church buildings, you have had a problem with the Church from the very beginning.

If you have a problem with a leader making a distinction between incoming tithing funds and funds that are a surplus investment, then you have a problem with word choice.
What money did the church use to invest in the first place?

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LDS Physician
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:07 pm
LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am
Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:08 am

Reserve funds are not tithing funds. I thought President Hinckley explained it well.
While cash is fungible, I agree. I think Pres. Hinckley's point is: 1) We don't want this neighborhood around the temple to become a terrible ghetto, and 2) we are not using new funds coming in, we have funds from past years that are being used as investments anyway; this mall has no place in our budget with regards to funds coming in--it is just part of an investment that we do with surplus funds.
Circular rationalization at its finest.
Not really.

The Church invests all kinds of surplus funds.

It is good they have surplus funds.

Also, since the very beginning, Joesph Smith, Brigham Young, etc., have been involved in banks, stores, hotels, railroads, etc. There really is nothing out of historical context of the Church for the Church to be making sure the mall by the temple did not dilapidate.

If you have a problem with the Church investing funds in things that are not Church buildings, you have had a problem with the Church from the very beginning.

If you have a problem with a leader making a distinction between incoming tithing funds and funds that are a surplus investment, then you have a problem with word choice.
I've got all sorts of problems with how they spend the widows' mites. $148 million Hawaiian resorts, $2 billion malls ... meanwhile, as a bishop, if I decided to help a single mother on the edge of being homeless a little "too much", I get a lecture from the stake president to tighten the spigot.

But ... feel free to tell me it's inappropriate to criticize how they're "investing" donated funds and the resulting interest. All the while ignoring D&C 101's criticism of the watchmen being too concerned with the "exchangers" to build and use the watchtower they were commissioned to construct and man.

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by Atrasado »

Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:07 pm
LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am
Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:08 am

Reserve funds are not tithing funds. I thought President Hinckley explained it well.
While cash is fungible, I agree. I think Pres. Hinckley's point is: 1) We don't want this neighborhood around the temple to become a terrible ghetto, and 2) we are not using new funds coming in, we have funds from past years that are being used as investments anyway; this mall has no place in our budget with regards to funds coming in--it is just part of an investment that we do with surplus funds.
Circular rationalization at its finest.
Not really.

The Church invests all kinds of surplus funds.

It is good they have surplus funds.

Also, since the very beginning, Joesph Smith, Brigham Young, etc., have been involved in banks, stores, hotels, railroads, etc. There really is nothing out of historical context of the Church for the Church to be making sure the mall by the temple did not dilapidate.

If you have a problem with the Church investing funds in things that are not Church buildings, you have had a problem with the Church from the very beginning.

If you have a problem with a leader making a distinction between incoming tithing funds and funds that are a surplus investment, then you have a problem with word choice.
It is interesting that prophets, apostles, and bishops decided to build a huge mall just as Amazon took over and malls started to become obsolete. I'm not sure how much prophetic insight that shows. Couldn't there have been a better investment, a better way to maintain the area around Temple Square, and a better use of money than that?!?

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Much like with voting, if all else fails, check whomever salt lake tribune is upset about.

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Knowing church conservatives, this will be done sloppily and aggressively and create a symbol for multi generational pushback.

I am getting to where the only conservatives I can talk to are California and New York types who understand how to fight.

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:54 pm
Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 12:07 pm
LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am
Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:13 am

While cash is fungible, I agree. I think Pres. Hinckley's point is: 1) We don't want this neighborhood around the temple to become a terrible ghetto, and 2) we are not using new funds coming in, we have funds from past years that are being used as investments anyway; this mall has no place in our budget with regards to funds coming in--it is just part of an investment that we do with surplus funds.
Circular rationalization at its finest.
Not really.

The Church invests all kinds of surplus funds.

It is good they have surplus funds.

Also, since the very beginning, Joesph Smith, Brigham Young, etc., have been involved in banks, stores, hotels, railroads, etc. There really is nothing out of historical context of the Church for the Church to be making sure the mall by the temple did not dilapidate.

If you have a problem with the Church investing funds in things that are not Church buildings, you have had a problem with the Church from the very beginning.

If you have a problem with a leader making a distinction between incoming tithing funds and funds that are a surplus investment, then you have a problem with word choice.
I've got all sorts of problems with how they spend the widows' mites. $148 million Hawaiian resorts, $2 billion malls ... meanwhile, as a bishop, if I decided to help a single mother on the edge of being homeless a little "too much", I get a lecture from the stake president to tighten the spigot.

But ... feel free to tell me it's inappropriate to criticize how they're "investing" donated funds and the resulting interest. All the while ignoring D&C 101's criticism of the watchmen being too concerned with the "exchangers" to build and use the watchtower they were commissioned to construct and man.
Agree...

Joseph Smith taught that tithing was to go to the poor. That was the purpose, not a long down the list annoying afterthought.

There weren't supposed to be rich...because they gave their excess to lift the poor...as in bringing people up to live like the Nephites did for 180 years after Christ's visit.

Joseph the leader had it correct, unfortunately the people didn't go along all that well. Now Q15 doesn't even try to teach correct principles. 152K salaries plus generous benefits, 150 billion dollar liquid tithing slush funds, supporting gay marriage bills and completely screwing up on ALL things covid...I could go on.

We don't have systemic racism...but we do have a systemic problem with the church being far far away from what Christ would want it to be. Some would call that apostasy.

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Moroni104
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by Moroni104 »

I wonder how you would have felt if the prophet invested the funds in a bank (or rather an anti-bank) right before a financial collapses, and everyone lost their money?

Or maybe a fancy hotel?

My point is: you can have your opinions about how the money should be spent. I have mine. (I actually would do things a lot differently than the current leadership does, but I am not the person in charge.) What happened with the Salt Lake Mall falls right in line with the entire history of the Church.

Throughout the entire LDS movement's history, funds have been spent with the dual purpose of setting asside reserve assets and also supporting the Church. It has always been this way. Take it up with Joseph or Brigham.

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LDS Physician
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

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Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 6:11 pm I wonder how you would have felt if the prophet invested the funds in a bank (or rather an anti-bank) right before a financial collapses, and everyone lost their money?

Or maybe a fancy hotel?

My point is: you can have your opinions about how the money should be spent. I have mine. (I actually would do things a lot differently than the current leadership does, but I am not the person in charge.) What happened with the Salt Lake Mall falls right in line with the entire history of the Church.

Throughout the entire LDS movement's history, funds have been spent with the dual purpose of setting asside reserve assets and also supporting the Church. It has always been this way. Take it up with Joseph or Brigham.
Can't take it up with them, they're dead ... So I'll stick with the ones screwing things up in the now.

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by Moroni104 »

LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 11:44 pm
Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 6:11 pm I wonder how you would have felt if the prophet invested the funds in a bank (or rather an anti-bank) right before a financial collapses, and everyone lost their money?

Or maybe a fancy hotel?

My point is: you can have your opinions about how the money should be spent. I have mine. (I actually would do things a lot differently than the current leadership does, but I am not the person in charge.) What happened with the Salt Lake Mall falls right in line with the entire history of the Church.

Throughout the entire LDS movement's history, funds have been spent with the dual purpose of setting asside reserve assets and also supporting the Church. It has always been this way. Take it up with Joseph or Brigham.
Can't take it up with them, they're dead ... So I'll stick with the ones screwing things up in the now.
Does the Church owning this ranch bother you?
https://www.florida-backroads-travel.co ... nches.html

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LDS Physician
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by LDS Physician »

Moroni104 wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 4:59 am
LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 11:44 pm
Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 6:11 pm I wonder how you would have felt if the prophet invested the funds in a bank (or rather an anti-bank) right before a financial collapses, and everyone lost their money?

Or maybe a fancy hotel?

My point is: you can have your opinions about how the money should be spent. I have mine. (I actually would do things a lot differently than the current leadership does, but I am not the person in charge.) What happened with the Salt Lake Mall falls right in line with the entire history of the Church.

Throughout the entire LDS movement's history, funds have been spent with the dual purpose of setting asside reserve assets and also supporting the Church. It has always been this way. Take it up with Joseph or Brigham.
Can't take it up with them, they're dead ... So I'll stick with the ones screwing things up in the now.
Does the Church owning this ranch bother you?
https://www.florida-backroads-travel.co ... nches.html
Haven't really looked into it or thought about it much. What are your thoughts?

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Moroni104 wrote: December 3rd, 2022, 4:59 am
LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 11:44 pm
Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 6:11 pm I wonder how you would have felt if the prophet invested the funds in a bank (or rather an anti-bank) right before a financial collapses, and everyone lost their money?

Or maybe a fancy hotel?

My point is: you can have your opinions about how the money should be spent. I have mine. (I actually would do things a lot differently than the current leadership does, but I am not the person in charge.) What happened with the Salt Lake Mall falls right in line with the entire history of the Church.

Throughout the entire LDS movement's history, funds have been spent with the dual purpose of setting asside reserve assets and also supporting the Church. It has always been this way. Take it up with Joseph or Brigham.
Can't take it up with them, they're dead ... So I'll stick with the ones screwing things up in the now.
Does the Church owning this ranch bother you?
https://www.florida-backroads-travel.co ... nches.html
It’s a cool place to visit if you get the chance.

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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Moroni104 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 6:11 pm I wonder how you would have felt if the prophet invested the funds in a bank (or rather an anti-bank) right before a financial collapses, and everyone lost their money?

Or maybe a fancy hotel?

My point is: you can have your opinions about how the money should be spent. I have mine. (I actually would do things a lot differently than the current leadership does, but I am not the person in charge.) What happened with the Salt Lake Mall falls right in line with the entire history of the Church.

Throughout the entire LDS movement's history, funds have been spent with the dual purpose of setting asside reserve assets and also supporting the Church. It has always been this way. Take it up with Joseph or Brigham.
Originally, Zion was to be redeemed by the purchasing the lands with money (or mammon) by the more wealthy members. But, then the church went into apostasy and was condemned by the Lord (D&C 84). But the Lord knew this would happen from the beginning. The Lord explains how Zion will ultimately be redeemed in D&C 101:43-69. Notice in these verses how the leaders of the church did not do what was commanded of them with tithing money, but put that money into the stock exchange instead.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by Letfreedumbring »

LDS Physician wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am
Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:08 am
Reserve funds are not tithing funds. I thought President Hinckley explained it well.
While cash is fungible, I agree. I think Pres. Hinckley's point is: 1) We don't want this neighborhood around the temple to become a terrible ghetto, and 2) we are not using new funds coming in, we have funds from past years that are being used as investments anyway; this mall has no place in our budget with regards to funds coming in--it is just part of an investment that we do with surplus funds.
Circular rationalization at its finest.
I opened up a new thread for this discussion since we were still talking about Woke professors in this one.

viewtopic.php?t=68776

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Moroni104 wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:08 am They have told me that Clark Gilbert is very interested in making sure BYU Provo continues as a religious institution and does not become secular.

https://www.deseret.com/2022/9/14/23319 ... -different
Another up and coming lds liberal academic in conservative clothing.

The article quoted is a fine piece of specious mormon enlightenment while inwardly just bowing to the UN agenda. Time to roll out: All of the religious universities are in this together.
Be specific. Otherwise we cannot learn from what you are saying and have no way to know if you have something important to add or are just being bitter.
He also appears to be saying the same thing Oaks is saying.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2 ... -different

Here are a few -
His background: From CA, Clark Gilbert attended BYU then Stanford for Master's in East Asian Studies and Harvard.

His application of that knowledge: https://www.ksl.com/article/12230812
https://www.niemanlab.org/2011/04/the-n ... ccounting/

Look at what Deseret News has become since that time. All in an effort to become Babylon.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/11/7/ ... nt-drought
https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/6/23441059/cop27-guide
https://www.deseret.com/2021/6/4/225180 ... ist-racism
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/7/ ... ides-chart

It is obvious that he is gunning for the 12 and the majority of the liberal apostles including RMN are trying to make that happen. Read about all the roles "created" for him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Gilbert
https://speeches.byu.edu/speakers/clark-g-gilbert/

What has the current church leadership become? They promote those who promote what they want.

Then there is his general tone just screams new normal. Given the rise of woke professors in BYUI and Provo.
He would fit right in. He starts crying over a CS Lewis story about a witch being defeated but blank at the end.
Just seems cold, feelingless and manufactured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlYBtFTaiQE

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Moroni104
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Re: Woke professors fired from BYU - I

Post by Moroni104 »

I honestly don't know Clark Gilbert.

All I know is that BYUI has made some move against woke professors and i can confirm that people I know at BYU Provo feel that Clark Gilbert is tightening up things against woke professors.

I really have no idea if he is a good person or not a good person or whether he is gunning to be in the 12 or anything like that.

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