dennis wrote: ↑November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm
Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
Oh boy. I just wrote a letter to a missionary in response to a talk he sent me about this. There is so much false information in this post or the quotes provided in this post and I can show it clearly. Let's take them on one at a time.
Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.
1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”
You can receive revelation about anything you want, but having the revelation does not mean that you have the power to do something about it. The scripture used to support the opinion presented in this quote D&C 28:2.
D&C 28
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
The Holy Ghost is the highest spiritual authority, even higher than the President of the Church, even higher that Jesus Christ and even higher than God the Father in that Jesus Christ and God the Father both tell us that we know what they say is right because it is witnessed by the spirit. This is hard for some people to comprehend or accept, but it is clearly taught in the scriptures by Jesus Christ himself. Jesus said that if you commit blasphemy or speak evil against him, (the son of Man), if can be forgiven, but if we commit blasphemy or speak evil against the Holy Ghost, it is not forgivable.
Matt. 12
31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
The Holy Ghost takes a special place in our lives as the witness of truth even when Jesus Christ or God or anyone else is speaking to us. It is also the only being who is charged with "show us all things that we should do". No other person or being has that charge nor have we been told to give that honor in our lives.
So, if the Holy Ghost tells you to do something, or say something, then it has given you the spiritual authority and power to do so.
1 Nephi 10
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.
It's spiritual authority and power trumps all
spiritual authority in the church, including the scriptures, and the prophets and the president of the church. But, it does not make policies for the church. The Holy Ghost does not have physical authority to write church policies or write church commandments that become binding on the church. Neither does Jesus Christ or God. Only the President of the church can do that. We hope that if Jesus instructs him to do something, he will do it, but we rely on the President of the church to be able to talk to God and trust he will implement the policies God wants. Ultimately it doesn't matter what the church does.
That doesn't mean that people can't receive revelations for the church or that apply to the whole church, it means that if if they do have a revelation or a commandment for the church by the spirit, they can share it and reveal it, but they cannot enforce it on the church and make it a policy, law, rule for the church. This was the position that Oliver Cowdery was in when Joseph the revelation. He could receive and deliver revelations by the spirit, but he couldn't enforce the revelations on the church.
D&C 28
1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.
Ok, so let's look at a few examples from the scriptures where lay members were given revelations for the entire church that did not come through the leadership of the church even when the church leadership was righteous and had the spirit. It actually has happened A LOT.
The first example is Samuel.
Samuel was working for/living with Eli who was the High Priest over the all Israel. Eli had prophesied to Samuel's mother that even though she was barren, she would be blessed with a child. Samuel was the child Eli prophesied about. When Samuel was about 11 years old, he was living with Eli, who, again, was the High Priest over Israel and a righteous prophet. Even though Eli was a true prophet and leader of the church, the Lord called to Samuel directly and bypassed Eli entirely. It is notable that while Eli was a righteous high priest, the Lord did not call Samuel through Eli rather the Lord called to Samuel directly. Eli didn't even know the Lord was going to do this. Samuel didn't even know the Lord. But the Lord still called to him directly and bypassed Eli. After the Lord called to Samuel several times and Samuel came to Eli thinking that it was Eli who called to him, Eli figured it out what was happening and instructed Samuel to respond to the Lord and believed all that the Lord said to Samuel. Then the Lord gave Samuel a revelation about all of Israel. This was clearly outside his physical stewardship, he was only 11 and held no significant callings over Israel. The Lord revealed to Samuel things that He had not yet told Eli, the rightful steward of Israel who again was a true prophet who prophesied of Samuel's birth. Eli then asked Samuel to tell him everything the Lord revealed to him. Then it became known that the Lord had called Samuel to be a prophet over Israel.
7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.
…
8 And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child.
9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
11 ¶ And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
…
18 And Samuel told him (Eli) every whit, and hid nothing from him. And he said, It is the Lord: let him do what seemeth him good.
19 ¶ And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beer-sheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord. – 1 Samuel 3:7-20
The Lord told Samuel what he was going to do "in Israel" which is like receiving a revelation over the entire church. Again, he was 11 and didn't have stewardship over the church. After Samuel talked with the Lord, Eli who did have stewardship over Israel asked him what the Lord said because Eli was completely in the dark even though he was the Prophet and a righteous leader of the church. This is how the Lord works, over and over and over throughout the scriptures.
I really like this example, because we see all the criteria in play that most people use to justify other experiences. For example, people might say, well the church leadership was corrupt and wicked, so the Lord had to come to a lay member. That happens a lot, but not in this example. Eli was a righteous man and supported the Lord going to Samuel. Eli was also a true prophet who prophesied for the Lord. He wasn't wicked or corrupt. Another thing people say is the distance was too far to travel anciently, so the Lord bypassed his leaders because it wasn't reasonable to travel that far. Again, not in this example. Eli was within walking distance and Samuel went to him tree times that night. The Lord still bypassed Eli to reveal what he would do to Israel to Samuel. There is no justification for this story that doesn't apply today. This is how the Lord works and has always worked. There are too many examples to list them all, but here is another one.
Amos
As a missionary, I quoted Amos for why we need prophets saying,
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. – Amos 3:7
Amos was one of these prophets who was called by God to prophesy to the people. By studying Amos, we can learn a number of important points regarding how the Lord calls prophets. Once we see how the Lord called Amos, we can see that he follows the same pattern throughout the scriptures as he calls other prophets.
Amos was not a prophet or a prophets son or in the church leadership. He had no claim to authority or leadership among the Children of Israel. God called him while he was a shepherd. He was called by revelation from the Lord directly, not from a man, church or set of men.
14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel. – Amos 7:14-15
Amos had no stewardship over Israel and was keen to point that out. But, the Lord called him directly, not through the church or other prophet. He lived in the kingdom of Judah but preached in the northern kingdom of Israel, outside any stewardship he could have claimed. Here again the Lord is giving revelations and commandments to someone about people outside of their stewardship and telling them to prophecy to them. In doing so, the Lord makes them stewards, or as Nephi said,
the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things
If you look at most of the prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon, they receive revelations and commandments for people they are not over.
Jeremiah
Also called by the Lord directly through personal revelation and told what to say to the entire church event though he didn't have authority over the church. Jeremiah was the son of the righteous High Priest Hilkiah who did have authority over the church:
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me (Jeremiah), saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 ¶ But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. – Jeremiah 1:4-7
While the prophet Jeremiah was preaching, many other prophets were called by God to preach repentance to Israel including Lehi:
1 Nephi 1
4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalemmust be destroyed.
Here's how Lehi who had no authority was given a revelation for all of Israel:
Lehi lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jeremiah when many prophets had been called of God. He was influenced by these prophets and prayed to God on behalf of the people. His prayer resulted in a series of visions in which he saw God and understood the Lord's judgments against Jerusalem. As a result of these visions, Lehi was called by God to prophesy with all the other prophets. he didn't have stewardship over the people he prophesied to.
18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. – 1 Nephi 1:18
It important to note that even though Jeremiah’s father Hilkiah was the High Priest over the church and is believed to have been a righteous man, he did not call his son Jeremiah, Lehi or any of the other prophets of his day. Each of them was called by God directly, independent of the priesthood and church organization. They were each given revelations outside of their stewardship and they preached by the spirit without the church's permission, authority, or sanction. They did exactly what the church today says the Lord does not support. But the Lord did support it and has always supported it.
Other examples include Jesus Christ, Moses, King Benjamin, Jonah, Simeon and Anna, Samuel the Lamanite, Alma, Mosiah, etc. All of these people and many more were called by God directly and given revelations about people they did not have earthly recognized authority over.
Also, the 144,000 are more examples of people who are authorized to act and receive revelation outside of and independent of the church leadership. They get their authority from the angels and not through the church or Joseph Smith's priesthood line of authority.
D&C 77
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
The 144,000 do not operate under the direction of the church. They do not report to the church. They report to their line of authority which goes to the angels who ordained them who have power over the nations of the earth. They even preach to the church and church members as they bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
I can provide you countless examples of people in the scriptures receiving revelation for people outside their stewardship. They cannot go and make laws, rules or policies any more than Samuel the Lamanite could make rules for the Nephite churches, but he was still sent by the Lord, endowed with the Power of God and spoke the will of the Lord to people who were not in his stewardship except that the Lord called him and authorized him directly without going through men or priesthood lines of men.
It is clear from the scriptures that the Lord does not follow or respect the lines of authority of the church as far as revelation is concerned. But, he does realize that only the President of the church can make policies, commandments and laws for the church to follow. The president of the United states can act in his office, to create laws and policies and administer his office and no one can overstep his position no matter how inspired they are, but anyone can receive revelations about the United States and him as a person/president and whether he is doing the right things or not.
Even the church leaders have said that we can receive revelation about whether they are leading the church correctly or not. This seems to be a flat out contradiction to the idea that we can't receive revelations about their stewardships. LOL,
They just don't want to deal with the reality that the Lord can and does work by small and simple means, (bottom up).
Even the church leaders have said that we can receive revelation about whether they are leading the church correctly or not. This seems to be a flat out contradiction to the idea that we can't receive revelations about their stewardships. LOL
Here are some Brigham Young quotes that say we should have revelation outside our stewardship and over our leaders.
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Another one...
Some may say, "Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am." I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, "If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are," this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.
Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right.
~Seeker
