Key indicator to avoid deception

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dennis
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Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by dennis »

Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by BeNotDeceived »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.

simpleton
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by simpleton »

BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
Which assumption is correct.

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nightlight
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by nightlight »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
Bobby cheats on his wife.

Jonny Applesauce was witness to this adulterous act.

Jonny can't speak out on the wrong behavior because Jonny is lower than Bobby..... And, after all, God didn't give Johnny a revelation

🙄

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by BeNotDeceived »

The Red Pill wrote: September 4th, 2022, 10:09 am This is very well researched, and one of those..."they didn't ever teach this in Sunday-school" moments.

This 2 part series covers how Brigham seized control of the church and made sure he stayed in control. Also discusses the "mysterious" death of Samual Smith shortly after Joseph and Hyrum were murdered.

Lizzy60
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Lizzy60 »

Brother Millet is not authoritative.

His employment depends on his supporting church headquarters at all costs.

endlessQuestions
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by endlessQuestions »

I guess Robert Millet is an okay source if you can’t, I don’t know, do what the scriptures tell you to in order to learn about whether a thing is true or false.

But why didn’t Robert Millet just quote the relevant scripture?

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Enoch
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Enoch »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
This is a description of actual/real prophets they rise up against the church and call it to repentance because the leaders are corrupted and are leading the members astray.

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Letfreedumbring »

edify wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:07 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
This is a description of actual/real prophets they rise up against the church and call it to repentance because the leaders are corrupted and are leading the members astray.
That has never happened once *

* Excluding Abinadi, Samuel the Lamanite, Nephi (Helaman), Jeremiah and others

innocentoldguy
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true, so may I suggest reading this list a bit more closely and applying the patterns to your own studies? From my own personal experiences, I can tell you that you'll never grow spiritually via criticism and condemnation. It's like trying to build a house by repeatedly running into your building materials with your truck. It will only produce a worthless mess for you to deal with.

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Chip
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Chip »

Control, control, control. That's what it's all about.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by BeNotDeceived »

endlessismyname wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:56 pm I guess Robert Millet is an okay source if you can’t, I don’t know, do what the scriptures tell you to in order to learn about whether a thing is true or false.

But why didn’t Robert Millet just quote the relevant scripture?
Prolly there is nothing to quote from before the church was &#%!@?.

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investigator
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by investigator »

dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
Here we go again with quotes falsely attributed to Joseph Smith...
This particular quote is cited as follows:

History of the Church, 3:385; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 2, 1839, in Montrose, Iowa; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards.

Therefore, this quote is cited from three sources:
History of the Church by B.H. Roberts;
Wilford Woodruff
Willard Richards

The quote does indeed appear in Source 1, History of the Church, but that's not the original source. History of the Church simply lifted the quote from the other two sources, as follows:

First is Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, where we find the lengthy notes Woodruff took during the meeting in question. Trouble is, Woodruff's Journal completely omits this quote, though it directly (and without interruption) supplies the rest of the sermon used in History of the Church.

The other source is Willard Richards' Pocket Companion, which does contain this quote.

OK, so got that so far? Woodruff omits this paragraph from the sermon. Richards has this paragraph in the middle of the sermon. Woodruff, no. Richards, yes.

Woodruff, who was present at the meeting in question, is considered the most reliable source because he recorded the notes of the meeting while in attendance. But this quote does not appear in that record. The sermon before and after this quote appears there uninterrupted, but the quoted paragraph is completely absent.

Richards' Pocket Companion is actually a collection of material Willard Richards copied from other sources. Therefore, though this material appears there, Richards was not actually present when Joseph gave this sermon, and Richards copied the material from elsewhere, most likely Wilford Woodruff’s journal. As to how the quote in question got into Richards' Pocket Companion while NOT appearing in the original record is a mystery. Nobody knows where it came from. It is therefore hearsay and not a historical record.

We are left to wonder where Richards obtained the quote and why he stuck it in the middle of a sermon he didn’t hear Joseph give. There is no original source that contains this quotation, and Richards was on a mission in England when Joseph was supposed to have said it.

The quote's dubious provenance is not helped by its doctrinal difficulties. For example, scripture is replete with true prophets, called of God, who did indeed "rise up to condemn others, finding fault with the church, saying they are out of the way." Some obvious examples are as follows:
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Lehi
Jacob
Benjamin
Abinadi
Alma the Younger
Samuel the Lamanite
John the Baptist
Jesus Christ
Joseph Smith

In fact, you can pretty much summarize the mission of any true prophet as calling people to repentance. (D&C 11:9) How is this not "condemn[ing] others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way?"

Therefore, since Joseph Smith himself was "on the high road to apostasy" if this quote were true, it is utterly preposterous that Joseph Smith ever said this. Nobody quite knows where this quote came from, but it wasn't Joseph Smith.
https://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/hi ... art-3.html

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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Christ taught us the most important "key indicator" to avoid deception. 2 Nephi 28:31

“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Fault-finding means digging deep to find a broken toenail or something really dumb. It's a good thing the things I find fault with are extremely obvious and evil.

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ransomme
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true, so may I suggest reading this list a bit more closely and applying the patterns to your own studies? From my own personal experiences, I can tell you that you'll never grow spiritually via criticism and condemnation. It's like trying to build a house by repeatedly running into your building materials with your truck. It will only produce a worthless mess for you to deal with.
Try reading the Doctrine and Covenants more closely

innocentoldguy
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:47 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm
dennis wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:14 pm Joseph Smith gave a key indicator to help avoid deception, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

Robert Millet proposed five questions that a person might ask to determine if something is false.

1. Is the person claiming the revelation acting within the bounds of his or her respective stewardship? There is a specific pattern that the Lord uses for revelation, Brother Millet said. He asked the audience if they could imagine if everyone received revelation for any part of the Church. It would be total chaos, he said. He then quoted Joseph Smith: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves.”

2. Is the person receiving the revelation worthy to receive such?
As a reference Brother Millet cited Doctrine and Covenants 52:14–15: “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.”

3. Is the communication in harmony with the standard works and teachings of the prophets?
Leave the exceptions to the prophets, Brother Millet counseled. “Elder [Bruce R.] McConkie taught to stay within the mainstream of the Church,” said Brother Millet. He advised class members to watch out for new interpretations of scripture or people claiming that following something outside the mainstream of the Church brings deeper spirituality.

4. Does the revelation edify or instruct?
Is it consistent with the dignity that ought to be associated with revelation from God? God does not work against Himself, said Brother Millet.

5. Does the communication build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment?
If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church or a desire to do what is right, it is not of God, said Brother Millet.
The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true, so may I suggest reading this list a bit more closely and applying the patterns to your own studies? From my own personal experiences, I can tell you that you'll never grow spiritually via criticism and condemnation. It's like trying to build a house by repeatedly running into your building materials with your truck. It will only produce a worthless mess for you to deal with.
Try reading the Doctrine and Covenants more closely
Cite specifically what you think runs contrary to what I said.

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ransomme
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:19 pm
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:47 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm

The above assumes the church wasn’t condemned and &#%!@? by brother Brigham and company. True messages will correlate with the name of Christ or Crist.
There is no evidence to suggest your position is true, so may I suggest reading this list a bit more closely and applying the patterns to your own studies? From my own personal experiences, I can tell you that you'll never grow spiritually via criticism and condemnation. It's like trying to build a house by repeatedly running into your building materials with your truck. It will only produce a worthless mess for you to deal with.
Try reading the Doctrine and Covenants more closely
Cite specifically what you think runs contrary to what I said.
Hint, look for condemnation, rebuked, taken away, removed, transgress(ed), etc.

There is evidence all over if you read the thing in various sections like 124, 82, 84, etc. and Joseph's preachings & writings etc.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 3:07 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:19 pm
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:47 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:41 am

There is no evidence to suggest your position is true, so may I suggest reading this list a bit more closely and applying the patterns to your own studies? From my own personal experiences, I can tell you that you'll never grow spiritually via criticism and condemnation. It's like trying to build a house by repeatedly running into your building materials with your truck. It will only produce a worthless mess for you to deal with.
Try reading the Doctrine and Covenants more closely
Cite specifically what you think runs contrary to what I said.
Hint, look for condemnation, rebuked, taken away, removed, transgress(ed), etc.

There is evidence all over if you read the thing in various sections like 124, 82, 84, etc. and Joseph's preachings & writings etc.
No, be specific. Cite chapter and verse or quote exactly what you're referring to. I'm not going to waste time reading and trying to guess what you might be eluding to.

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ransomme
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:35 pm
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 3:07 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:19 pm
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:47 am
Try reading the Doctrine and Covenants more closely
Cite specifically what you think runs contrary to what I said.
Hint, look for condemnation, rebuked, taken away, removed, transgress(ed), etc.

There is evidence all over if you read the thing in various sections like 124, 82, 84, etc. and Joseph's preachings & writings etc.
No, be specific. Cite chapter and verse or quote exactly what you're referring to. I'm not going to waste time reading and trying to guess what you might be eluding to.
To paraphrase RMN, it takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples don't get very far.

Maximum effort
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innocentoldguy
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:37 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:35 pm
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 3:07 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:19 pm

Cite specifically what you think runs contrary to what I said.
Hint, look for condemnation, rebuked, taken away, removed, transgress(ed), etc.

There is evidence all over if you read the thing in various sections like 124, 82, 84, etc. and Joseph's preachings & writings etc.
No, be specific. Cite chapter and verse or quote exactly what you're referring to. I'm not going to waste time reading and trying to guess what you might be eluding to.
To paraphrase RMN, it takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples don't get very far.

Maximum effort
Well, if it doesn't mean enough to you to spend the time articulating/citing your point, then it really isn't worth my time listening to you.

tribrac
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by tribrac »

Lizzy60 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:50 pm Brother Millet is not authoritative.

His employment depends on his supporting church headquarters at all costs.
I wondered if Brother Millet publishing his list was a violation of the list he promotes. Hmm.....

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ransomme
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Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:43 am
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:37 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:35 pm
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 3:07 pm
Hint, look for condemnation, rebuked, taken away, removed, transgress(ed), etc.

There is evidence all over if you read the thing in various sections like 124, 82, 84, etc. and Joseph's preachings & writings etc.
No, be specific. Cite chapter and verse or quote exactly what you're referring to. I'm not going to waste time reading and trying to guess what you might be eluding to.
To paraphrase RMN, it takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples don't get very far.

Maximum effort
Well, if it doesn't mean enough to you to spend the time articulating/citing your point, then it really isn't worth my time listening to you.
I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.

innocentoldguy
captain of 100
Posts: 265

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:05 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:43 am
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:37 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:35 pm

No, be specific. Cite chapter and verse or quote exactly what you're referring to. I'm not going to waste time reading and trying to guess what you might be eluding to.
To paraphrase RMN, it takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples don't get very far.

Maximum effort
Well, if it doesn't mean enough to you to spend the time articulating/citing your point, then it really isn't worth my time listening to you.
I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.
Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.

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ransomme
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4013

Re: Key indicator to avoid deception

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:47 am
ransomme wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:05 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:43 am
ransomme wrote: November 28th, 2022, 10:37 pm

To paraphrase RMN, it takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples don't get very far.

Maximum effort
Well, if it doesn't mean enough to you to spend the time articulating/citing your point, then it really isn't worth my time listening to you.
I clearly articulated that you were wrong. You just sling out there that there is no proof, but you won't even read what's not spoonfed to you even if it's put right under your nose.
Yes, you clearly articulated that as your opinion. You also offered vague references to "back up" your claims, like "Read the D&C," but have been unable to cite specifically what you are referring to. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to read a bunch of sections while trying to guess what you mean. You are unable or unwilling to provide specifics of what you're talking about and cite them.
Ok I'll take you at your word that you are neither playing dumb or trolling. For starters:


D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. (But Joseph and Hyrum were removed like unto Moses, and the saints were removed also; (see also 101:93-101))
46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.
47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

D&C 101
99 Therefore, it is my will that my people should claim, and hold claim upon that which I have appointed unto them, though they should not be permitted to dwell thereon.
100 Nevertheless, I do not say they shall not dwell thereon; for inasmuch as they bring forth fruit and works meet for my kingdom they shall dwell thereon.
(unfortunately, they failed and were removed, did not inherit the promise land or build Zion and we continue to fail in apostasy)
101 They shall build, and another shall not inherit it; they shall plant vineyards, and they shall eat the fruit thereof. Even so. Amen.

D&C 84 - They failed to "bring forth fruit and works meet for His kingdom" were rejected as a church and were not allowed to inhabit Zion.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

God had often sealed up the Heavens because of covetousness in the church. Said the Lord would cut his work short in righteousness and except the church receive the fullness of the scriptures they would yet fall.” - JSP, Documents Vol 2: July 1831 –January 1833, p. 85. (then see 3 Nephi 21)
“O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?” (Hel. 13:29).

And without Zion we must fall, "...but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? The time is near when the desolation is to cover the earth, and then God will have a place for deliverance in his remnant, in Zion,... Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall;" - TotPJS p.70-71

And just like we haven't received the greater things in the Book of Mormon because of condemnation (see above D&C 84), we also never received the things that the Lord did "deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..." (D&C 124:41-42)

We are waiting for the restoration of all things, but that won't happen until the Endtime, the Day of the Lord.

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